This Is Project Neon, The Upgrade For Windows 10’s Design

Megalith

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Aero Glass is back! Well, not really…but I’m a sucker for any kind of aesthetic change, so I am curious to see how this turns out and whether we will get visual upgrades beyond those for apps. Animations are supposed to be an exciting part of this, but I reckon that a lot of you are like me and have that stuff unchecked under System.

…I don’t want readers to be fooled by those who suggest this is a major or a complete overhaul of Windows 10’s design language. In fact, it’s a fairly minor update that builds on the current Windows 10 UI (aka MDL2). Nevertheless, change is always exciting, so here’s an early look at NEON. Project NEON will heavily focus on animations, simplicity, and consistency – essentially bringing back Windows 7’s Aero Glass and mixing it up with animations like the ones from the Windows Phone 8/7 era.
 

M76

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I already saw this yesterday. And it's more of a downgrade than an upgrade, If you can believe that. At this point I think it took more effort to make it worse, than it would have to actually improve the already beyond minimalistic visuals of 10.

It's still crap, just an even more minimalistic crap, with added blur effects, and pointless morphing headings.
 

tetris42

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Windows should support user-made skins anyway.
Been wanting that for decades now. When people say they like a certain OS, half the time, they're really only talking about the interface. It seems a no brainer to open that wide open for custom designs.
 
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Dekoth-E-

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Still not going back to 10. Let me know when they make pro edition, pro edition again and I'll consider it. So long as pro edition remains stupid user edition with a few unimportant tweaks, I don't care.
 

M76

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I saw it one nano-second before you did, whew.
I wasn't bragging. I was just explaining why I can form an opinion on it without even looking at the article :p
First or last to see it, it's still the same crap.
 

DeathFromBelow

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Windows 10 is dead. Windows 7 outgrew it in December. You can't even buy Windows 7 directly anymore and it beat 10 over the holidays.

I got fed up and switched all the computers around the house to Linux Mint back in October. All my hardware 'just works,' all my favorite games are Linux native. 1/3 of my Steam library is Linux native. The update system actually works. The UI was designed for a desktop instead of a phablet. There's no data mining or privacy settings that reset after every update. It doesn't decide to reboot when I'm in the middle of something... I never seriously thought I'd be switching to Linux on the desktop, but it's actually actually a viable alternative to Windows now. I'm blown away by how much it's improved in the past year.
 

Uvaman2

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Oy Vey.. I will forever miss the '3d' aspecs of windows, and buttons that look like buttons. I have gotten used to the "modern" UI looks, but its just that, used to it. Windows has it was developed until W7 was and will be the way to make things look.. I bet you money we will be back, but after its all forgotten, and someones comes in as if its new.
 

Advil

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There's really not much to this. They're overhauling the app appearance (AGAIN) thinking that any of us give a flying crap about apps.

I don't use Office or Outlook anymore. I use the desktop features of Windows 10. I manage my mail with Live Mail 2012, which doesn't look and behave like an app.

I like Windows 10 on the desktop just fine. The sooner MS goes full circle like Intel does every few years and remembers its core business again the better.

MS needs to take a look at the interfaces of the mail clients that personal users loved: outlook express/windows mail/live mail and go back to that.

My gripe with the whole app system is the MS abandoned the standards of behavior that we expect from Windows programs. Yes, I'm aware that tablets and phones need a more finger-friendly interface but this attempt to reimagine the core Windows user interface toward apps is what is really causing the confusion. MS would be better served pushing a different model. Every program and app needs a touch button to switch the whole program between touch and mouse mode. MS needs to be ADVOCATING having a desktop mode AND a touch mode in any program that needs both. The idea of making a touch centric program also be useful enough in a content creation environment where you are working with a keyboard and mouse and trying to work FAST and get things done... is ludicrous.

Android is winning that war because they stay far, far away from full desktop operating systems. They have yet to actually attempt to breach that space. Because as soon as they do, the real creators will tear them apart. Just like they do with Windows when it removes desktop features in favor of app simplicity.

Microsoft really could push both ends and once. They just need to FOCUS on DESKTOP. and make app interface a priority in ease of implementation but not the main priority like they have been.

I could sum it up like this:

Why do people LOVE the Surface? Because you can do desktop things on it 90% of the time. And when you need a quick touch interface for some basic stuff while riding in the car or walking across the house? It does that too! Which one of those is more important? There's where the focus should be.
 

M76

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Oy Vey.. I will forever miss the '3d' aspecs of windows, and buttons that look like buttons. I have gotten used to the "modern" UI looks, but its just that, used to it. Windows has it was developed until W7 was and will be the way to make things look.. I bet you money we will be back, but after its all forgotten, and someones comes in as if its new.
Maybe you just figured out the master plan.

They give away this crap for free. Then they bring in Windows 12 with full desktop features, good ui, without telemetry, and forced updates. And will charge 2 times as much for it.
 

heatlesssun

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Why do people LOVE the Surface? Because you can do desktop things on it 90% of the time. And when you need a quick touch interface for some basic stuff while riding in the car or walking across the house? It does that too! Which one of those is more important? There's where the focus should be.
So yeah, Surface devices with Windows 10 do a pretty good job of going between a tablet and a desktop. It's up to a developer on how they want to create their UIs and how it would adapt to different inputs. You don't necessarily need completely different UIs to work effectively between KBM and touch input. It's much more important however that an application be able to respond well to different input types.

As for focus on the desktop, after all of these years, I guess I don't really know what kind of focus one would put into a strictly keyboard and mouse input environment that would change a whole lot. There's any number of a zillion incremental things that could be done but the keyboard and mouse driven desktop, that's pretty well baked.
 

Liger88

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Call me a sucker, but I always loved the Aero facelift. It sucked with Vista because machines were underpowered and it was often quirky after release, but it was fine tuned and the hardware caught up when 7 came out. Besides the Start Button/Menu, the only thing that ever bothered me since 7 was the UI changes to try and make it looks "fresh". The flatness bothers me more than anything and I still can't see after 3 months on Windows 10 how this is futurist and hip.

I still find myself not realizing I can click things in apps.
 

Jahx

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I like the idea of animation, but the actual reality of it is simply this - if I am looking at a menu, it means I don't have the key commands to activate the function memorized, and I just want to launch the program/enable the feature, what have you. A static image is more quickly and reliably recognized than an animated one. Thus, I want my static images, so I can continue on my path of productivity. But I really like the idea. Pretty things.
 

Terpfen

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They're basically improving the system font and frosting window backgrounds. Fine with me. Windows' UI issues have little to do with its visual style, and everything to do with its lack of HIG cohesion. Microsoft has released four operating systems now that are entirely predicated on "do it like Apple, but less functional, and mirror the interface elements."

For Windows' UI to move forward, Win32 needs to DIAGDF.
 

heatlesssun

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For Windows' UI to move forward, Win32 needs to DIAGDF.
Yeah, I hear what you're saying but it's just a practical impossibility at this time. And actually, UWA, that's really just an extension of Win32 now, though with some caveats. There's stuff like CrystalMark in the Windows store, which is just the Win32 version repackaged.

Ultimately backwards compatibility and slow pacing in development are a double edged sword. Microsoft literally can't change anything without complete backwards support with some people going nuts. And that's obvisouly impossible to do forever.
 

nutzo

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Still not going back to 10. Let me know when they make pro edition, pro edition again and I'll consider it. So long as pro edition remains stupid user edition with a few unimportant tweaks, I don't care.
Then I assume you will be sticking with 6th generation (or earlier) CPU's.
Some of the new features on the 7th gen Intel CPU's now require Windows 10, and many of the motherboard companies are saying the hardware is only supported with Windows 10, if you are using the newer CPU's.
 

lilbabycat

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buttons that look like buttons
That's all I've ever wanted from a UI. Maybe even have a little description of what the button does from time to time.

And phones? All I ever wanted was buttons on that too...but instead touchscreens... Come to me sweet sweet Blackberry Mercury...don't suck
 

trparky

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I don't understand why there's so much hate around Windows 10. I use it myself and I have no problems with it. Is it perfect? No, but it does work and it works well. So again, I don't understand the hate that Windows 10 receives all the time. It works fine for me.
 

heatlesssun

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It works fine for me.
And there's the problem. I get the complaints and much of it is valid. Personally I've got more hardware and software running under Windows 10 than any previous version of Windows without issue. It would require a LOT of testing to take all of that stuff back to 7 or 8.1 to determine if those were better and I have a number of things that aren't backwards compatible, particularly back to 7.
 

Dekoth-E-

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Then I assume you will be sticking with 6th generation (or earlier) CPU's.
Some of the new features on the 7th gen Intel CPU's now require Windows 10, and many of the motherboard companies are saying the hardware is only supported with Windows 10, if you are using the newer CPU's.
I guess so, not like gaming has required me to upgrade in years. I haven't had a game push my very old system in years, it makes me sad. No point in upgrading hardware if I can't even max out what I have.
 

lilbabycat

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I don't understand why there's so much hate around Windows 10. I use it myself and I have no problems with it. Is it perfect? No, but it does work and it works well. So again, I don't understand the hate that Windows 10 receives all the time. It works fine for me.
When I sit down with win 10 I feel like I am in the same place as I was with win 7 in 2009. Where's the progression? We can argue it but overall performance/compatibility/functionality is functionally the same, not that I'm complaining, general computing doesn't need the horsepower of most systems. (Mobile is another story of course) What we have left is the UI. And its undeniably regressed. Its neither intuitive for the advanced user, nor for the beginner. There is no functional benefit in the flat/simplistic design choice other than making for a pretty screenshot...i guess? I don't know what these people are thinking. That screenshot is offensive. :barefoot: Not say complexity is a desired thing, but fuck man I want to know where one email ends and the next starts with a little line or outline is all...
 

heatlesssun

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I guess so, not like gaming has required me to upgrade in years. I haven't had a game push my very old system in years, it makes me sad. No point in upgrading hardware if I can't even max out what I have.
Don't know what you have, but there's tons of stuff that will push high end hardware. You may not be interested in that content, that's not a slam. Just saying I'm having no problem stressing this sig rig.
 

BloodyIron

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This looks like fucking garbage. How do I tell where one element ends another begins?
 

heatlesssun

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When I sit down with win 10 I feel like I am in the same place as I was with win 7 in 2009. Where's the progression? We can argue it but overall performance/compatibility/functionality is functionally the same, not that I'm complaining, general computing doesn't need the horsepower of most systems. (Mobile is another story of course) What we have left is the UI. And its undeniably regressed. Its neither intuitive for the advanced user, nor for the beginner. There is no functional benefit in the flat/simplistic design choice other than making for a pretty screenshot...i guess? I don't know what these people are thinking. That screenshot is offensive. :barefoot: Not say complexity is a desired thing, but fuck man I want to know where one email ends and the next starts with a little line or outline is all...
I've not seen to many people really have problems with the UI in 10. Minimalism is just where UI got reset a few years ago. Maybe one might think 10 to be to basic and flat. Windows 7 seems to busy to me these days. I do think there's needs to be more options, like some many others complain about in Windows 10.
 

tetris42

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I don't understand why there's so much hate around Windows 10. I use it myself and I have no problems with it. Is it perfect? No, but it does work and it works well. So again, I don't understand the hate that Windows 10 receives all the time. It works fine for me.
I think it's different for different people. For me, it's that we've shifted to MANDATORY automatic updates with NO recourse if something goes wrong. This combined with them laying off a bunch of their quality assurance means they're essentially running a never-ending beta now. For me personally, that's totally unacceptable in a system I depend on. It's taking control away from me and is introducing a vulnerability I didn't have before. Sure, 99% of the updates are unlikely to cause me major problems, but for the 1% that DO (which I have already had happen to me on 7), that's it, I'm screwed. In older Windows, I could always work around that, but that's no longer a possibility. This represents a big paradigm shift and it's not one I like.

So sure, your system may work great today, but you have no guarantee it will work great in the future because you no longer have that control over your system anymore. If MS makes a mistake on a future update and it affects you, that's pretty much it.
 

Dekoth-E-

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Don't know what you have, but there's tons of stuff that will push high end hardware. You may not be interested in that content, that's not a slam. Just saying I'm having no problem stressing this sig rig.
I run 1080p resolution, there isn't a single game on the market that I can't max settings on. I'm sure I could if I cranked up to 4k+ resolutions, but that is completely pointless on a 24" monitor.
 

heatlesssun

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I think it's different for different people. For me, it's that we've shifted to MANDATORY automatic updates with NO recourse if something goes wrong. This combined with them laying off a bunch of their quality assurance means they're essentially running a never-ending beta now. For me personally, that's totally unacceptable in a system I depend on. It's taking control away from me and is introducing a vulnerability I didn't have before. Sure, 99% of the updates are unlikely to cause me major problems, but for the 1% that DO (which I have already had happen to me on 7), that's it, I'm screwed. In older Windows, I could always work around that, but that's no longer a possibility. This represents a big paradigm shift and it's not one I like.

So sure, your system may work great today, but you have no guarantee it will work great in the future because you no longer have that control over your system anymore. If MS makes a mistake on a future update and it affects you, that's pretty much it.
Every non-trivial piece of software has bugs. Big ones. It's simply a matter of time before they're discovered. I think sometimes people kind of get so critical of something that maybe they lose sight of the fact that there's really no perfect solution. Sure, I agree that Microsoft should allow users to have more control over updates. But even security critical updates don't always work out but the potential risk might still be work the update. There's no silver bullet here, you can give users more control and there has been word that the Creators Update will allow updates to be delayed by up to 35 days. That's not totally ignoring the update but that's simply not possible with the cumulative update nature of Windows.

A lot of the debate over Windows 10 has a lot to do with the fact that Microsoft is now going with an iterative development model versus a three year waterfall model. As much as I get called a Windows shill, I'd love to see how Linux would handle having to deal with all of the stuff that Windows does. I imagine the answer would be 100 different distros.
 

tetris42

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Every non-trivial piece of software has bugs. Big ones. It's simply a matter of time before they're discovered. I think sometimes people kind of get so critical of something that maybe they lose sight of the fact that there's really no perfect solution. Sure, I agree that Microsoft should allow users to have more control over updates. But even security critical updates don't always work out but the potential risk might still be work the update. There's no silver bullet here, you can give users more control and there has been word that the Creators Update will allow updates to be delayed by up to 35 days. That's not totally ignoring the update but that's simply not possible with the cumulative update nature of Windows.

A lot of the debate over Windows 10 has a lot to do with the fact that Microsoft is now going with an iterative development model versus a three year waterfall model. As much as I get called a Windows shill, I'd love to see how Linux would handle having to deal with all of the stuff that Windows does. I imagine the answer would be 100 different distros.
You can argue the advantages all you want, but it doesn't fix the vulnerability of this approach. The thing is, on Windows 7, there are two security updates that simply break software I use every day (they screw up the Z order on windows, it's probably only triggered with running an alternate shell, but I can do a lot more with that than explorer). Microsoft never released another update that addressed this. If I were to blindly enable all updates today, it would cause me significant problems and make my system far less usable for me personally. By disabling those two updates, I can keep running everything fine. So it doesn't matter if there's a 35 day delay, if they come up with an update that screws me over, I'm still screwed, just 35 days later. So I've already seen MS screw it up for me on 7, I simply can't trust that they won't now or in the future on 10. I understand there are advantages to the continuous updating system, but it's just too high a price for me personally.

Believe me, it's not just Microsoft I hold this standard to, it's any software where a sudden change in how it works could break my entire project. The bottom line is I don't trust Microsoft to never make a big mistake, but that's kind of what's needed in order to rely on this style of updating.
 

heatlesssun

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I run 1080p resolution, there isn't a single game on the market that I can't max settings on.
Likewise for me. But no one buys dual 1080s for that.

I'm sure I could if I cranked up to 4k+ resolutions, but that is completely pointless on a 24" monitor.
That will very much depend on what you're running and how. This rig is setup for single 1080p, triple surround 1080p, both 2D and 3D, single 4k and VR. So there are a lot more ways for me to stress things. And yeah, 4k in something like BF1 or Serious Sam FE VR, that will stress this rig.
 

heatlesssun

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You can argue the advantages all you want, but it doesn't fix the vulnerability of this approach. The thing is, on Windows 7, there are two security updates that simply break software I use every day (they screw up the Z order on windows, it's probably only triggered with running an alternate shell, but I can do a lot more with that than explorer). Microsoft never released another update that addressed this.
I'm not arguing against you here. But if these were indeed security updates that were broken, you'd have to mitigate the security issue while ignoring these updates.

So I've already seen MS screw it up for me on 7, I simply can't trust that they won't now or in the future on 10. I understand there are advantages to the continuous updating system, but it's just too high a price for me personally.
Fair enough. When I look at it all there's all manner of problems with everything. Windows updates break everything and Linux will run 1/3rd of my games. And virtually none of main productivity apps.
 

Ur_Mom

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I like eye candy. I just don't like the look of this. I'd love to see customizable visuals.
 

lilbabycat

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I've not seen to many people really have problems with the UI in 10. Minimalism is just where UI got reset a few years ago
Ok let me put it to you this way. Who is exclaiming that the direction they are going is a GOOD one? Who's saying "wow this UI is amazing"? NO ONE. That's how you know its shit. The only people that talk it up are the marketing goons, everyone else is saying "its ok" or "no one is complaining". Standards, man. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you do, make it better.

The popularity of windows UI mods/apps/edits has never been higher. I say MS open that up and make it easier to customize. MS shouldn't be saying "this flat bland shit is now the standard", they should be saying "this flat bland shit is your canvas, paint it". They're an OS company, give me more options for operating my system.

I like eye candy. I just don't like the look of this. I'd love to see customizable visuals.
missed your comment amongst my rant, this.
 
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Dekoth-E-

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Likewise for me. But no one buys dual 1080s for that.



That will very much depend on what you're running and how. This rig is setup for single 1080p, triple surround 1080p, both 2D and 3D, single 4k and VR. So there are a lot more ways for me to stress things. And yeah, 4k in something like BF1 or Serious Sam FE VR, that will stress this rig.
Anyway my point in response to the post I quoted was simply that the OS isn't going to hold me back anytime in the near future. I'm several generations behind the max of what Win 7 can support and I can't find anything that maxes my PC out at the resolutions I game. Chances are pretty slim there is anything in the pipe for years that would force me to jump into a Win 10 only cpu. Thing is I would pretty happily go back to win 10 if they reverted those stupid changes.
 
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