Thinking of leaving PC for Mac. Questions...

[peppergomez]

As per my recent woes, I'm thinking I'll say goodbye to PC and try Mac. I want something that is more likely to just work, and I no longer need a computer for gaming.

I am not even sure of what questions I should be asking. I guess a few basic ones...

Would a Macbook be likely to have either mini display port or dual link DVI? That's a must, to drive my HP ZR30w monitor at 2560x1600. HDMI and VGA are out.

Would my MS Natural Keyboard Pro and Razer Naga mouse work, and would my Windows formatted HDDs and SSDs be read by the Mac OS?

Sure would be nice to be able to use my MS Office 2013 suite, too.

Hmm, liable to be other considerations, but that's what I can think off the top of my head. No longer need to know if HOTAS and TrackIR are compatible.

 

[jimh425]

You can at least use a Matrox dual head 2 go. http://www.matrox.com/graphics/en/solutions/mac/

I'm not so sure about the just work part. My coworkers seem to have as much problems with Macs as any other OS.

 

[Ultima99]

Its all fluff dude. Give it a shot if you want though.

 

[peppergomez]

what I want is a computer that doesn't fuck up all the time. or a lot of the time.

 

[munkle]

I actually have more problems with my mac than my main windows computer. But then again I have had pretty much 0 problems with my main windows computer, so switching because you have issues really probably wont net you much. If you have tons of windows issues, either something is wrong with the hardware or you need a reinstall because of some virus/malware issue or its pebkac.

A new macbook pro/air isn't going to have dual link dvi, you'll have to use display port on your 30" screen.

To use office 2013 you are going to have to use windows. Mac only has office 2011 or office 365.

If the hard drives are ntfs they will be read only, haven't looked to see if there is a way around this but with the built in options ntfs is read only, fat/exfat will work normally.

 

[Andyk5]

Buy a Mac and be done with it.

I used PC's and Linux machines exclusively for 25 years. I just got a MBPr. It is the best machine I ever owned, I love it, it does everything perfectly and for that odd time that I need windows I fire up parallels, but I try to come back to Mac as soon as possible. I will never buy a Windows laptop ever again, I will keep my Windows desktop for gaming only and probably never upgrade it any further and slowly move all my gaming to a PS4 or something.

 

[morningreis]

I bought a Macbook Pro and I'll never buy a Windows laptop again. I was an Android phone user, and when it was time for an upgrade I switched to iPhone for better compatability with the Macbook. I probably won't have another Android phone in the near future.

Now I'm thinking of switching my PC into a Hackintosh.

The Mac experience has been SMOOTH. I've been able to simply get shit done rather than troubleshoot all the time, or waste time trying to navigate Windows 8's stupid organization.

 

[AndreRio]

I am also thinking about leaving my pc for a mac. a "mac mini" that is what I was thinking!!

 

[ultraman7k]

you can use the Mini DP in the Thunderbolt slot, and your mouse should work just fine. I carried over my old Deathadder onto my current MBP and it works as intended as does my Nostromo (well, when I used it that is). You may need to download the mapping software or some such though from Razer.

 

[MrCrispy]

Don't do it.

Contrary to what you will read, OSX is NOT user friendly, intuitive, or easy to use. The exact opposite in fact. The keyboard layout will drive you mad, there are extra keys like Cmd, Option just to complicate things for no reason while it lacks basis like PgUp/Dn/Delete, Home/End don't work. The OS itself will seem like a toy after Windows, Finder/Dock are a joke, the only semi useful thing is Spotlight which you also have on Windows.

Mac's have terrible support for basics like multiple monitor, peripherals, interacting with anything not made by Apple. Only buy it if you want to get locked down in their ecosystem. Everything costs more too.

I'm typing this from a MBP that I use for work btw, and I wish I had my Ultrabook back.

 

[mope54]

Tuxera NTFS resolves writing to NTFS partitions

1. FN+(Arrow up/down) = Page up / down
2. FN+(Arrow left/right) = go to top or bottom of a page
3. COMMAND+(Arrow up/down) = go to top or bottom of a page
4. COMMAND+(Arrow left/right) = go to beginning/end of a line

Alternatively, you can use space and shift+space for page up / down, respectively

 

[MrCrispy]

Tuxera NTFS resolves writing to NTFS partitions

1. FN+(Arrow up/down) = Page up / down
2. FN+(Arrow left/right) = go to top or bottom of a page
3. COMMAND+(Arrow up/down) = go to top or bottom of a page
4. COMMAND+(Arrow left/right) = go to beginning/end of a line

Alternatively, you can use space and shift+space for page up / down, respectively

I figured out most of these. Even wrote a script to remap Home/End to work like they do for the rest of the world (go to line begin/end) but its specific to each editor.

My point remains, OSX is needlessly complex, doesn't do the basic and obvious stuff and has a big learning curve with no reward.

 

[shansoft]

I figured out most of these. Even wrote a script to remap Home/End to work like they do for the rest of the world (go to line begin/end) but its specific to each editor.

My point remains, OSX is needlessly complex, doesn't do the basic and obvious stuff and has a big learning curve with no reward.

From Windows 7 perspective, I agree on some part.

But for Windows 8, it's a cluster fuck to learn.

The same can be say the opposite.

 

[wonderfield]

Would a Macbook be likely to have either mini display port or dual link DVI? That's a must, to drive my HP ZR30w monitor at 2560x1600. HDMI and VGA are out.

All current MacBooks support 2560x1600 displays through their Thunderbolt outputs.

Would my MS Natural Keyboard Pro and Razer Naga mouse work, and would my Windows formatted HDDs and SSDs be read by the Mac OS?

Your keyboard and mouse will work. I'm just assuming, of course, that your Razer mouse isn't one that actually requires their software to function, though, so you should research that (the keyboard is no problem). OS X can read from NTFS-formatted volumes and can write to FAT32-formatted volumes.

Sure would be nice to be able to use my MS Office 2013 suite, too.

I don't know whether Microsoft's Office licensing is actually a cross-license that would let you use it in OS X as well. You can, of course, run Office on OS X. Microsoft's always been a premier Apple developer.

Its all fluff dude.

I truly wish that was the case. I could save a lot of money by simply running a Windows PC and eschewing an OS X machine, but, as it stands, my needs pretty much necessitate that I use one for work and the other for play. Until both Microsoft and Apple address their respective shortcomings, that's the situation.

I am also thinking about leaving my pc for a mac. a "mac mini" that is what I was thinking!!

Consider the iMac instead. They come in at a higher price point, but they're currently a much better overall value.

I won't respond to the various troll posts for obvious reasons.

 

[munkle]

I won't respond to the various troll posts for obvious reasons.

There aren't any troll posts in here. It's not a troll post if someone offers their opinion that is different than yours. If you're talking about mr. cripsy it would be a troll post if all he said was don't do it. But he offered up very valid reasons for not switching. I use both osx and windows and the keyboard differences do drive you crazy when switching between the two.

Its a fact that peripheral support isn't as good as windows. I had a usb to ethernet adapter that worked and one day apple released an os x update, it stopped working, couldn't ever get it working after that and researching online revealed that same update pretty much blocked a ton of non apple usb to ethernet adapters from working and many had the same problem as me.

These are considerations that need to be taken when switching you may have a device that works but an update breaks it and since its not apple your kind of out of luck.

 

[mope54]

peripheral support is *better* than windows
Apple doesn't support third party devices that aren't approved...neither does Microsoft. If you have a problem with a crappy adapter that you bought from China via eBay and it doesn't work then you're SOL with either company. Sometimes those craptastic peripherals do work, but then again you have a lot of unresolved issues (like the OP mentions in his first post as a reason to switch) that simply get misattributed to the OS but more likely are due to shoddy hardware

that's not "good" peripheral support. That's DIY. you're on your own with peripherals that often work but sometimes do not.


as for Office cross-licensing--it doesn't exist. you must buy a copy for Windows and/or OS X *or* run your Windows version in a virtual machine. A new iteration of Office should be on the horizon.

 

[munkle]

peripheral support is *better* than windows
Apple doesn't support third party devices that aren't approved...neither does Microsoft. If you have a problem with a crappy adapter that you bought from China via eBay and it doesn't work then you're SOL with either company. Sometimes those craptastic peripherals do work, but then again you have a lot of unresolved issues (like the OP mentions in his first post as a reason to switch) that simply get misattributed to the OS but more likely are due to shoddy hardware

that's not "good" peripheral support. That's DIY. you're on your own with peripherals that often work but sometimes do not.


as for Office cross-licensing--it doesn't exist. you must buy a copy for Windows and/or OS X *or* run your Windows version in a virtual machine. A new iteration of Office should be on the horizon.

So my "crappy adapter" that came with my asus ultrabook is all of a sudden from China via eBay?

Sorry but now you are just trolling. The adapter is plug and play on any windows 7/8 computer. When it did work on os x I had manually install the drivers.

That is by no means better than windows. Maybe in your crazy world...

The adapter even works fine in parallels, its not that the adapter has issues or doesn't work on os x, its that apple blocked it, pure and simple.

 

[wonderfield]

There aren't any troll posts in here. It's not a troll post if someone offers their opinion that is different than yours. If you're talking about mr. cripsy it would be a troll post if all he said was don't do it.

When one suggests that there only negative implications in doing something with a well-defined and demonstrable mix of both positive and negative implications, that person is either A) ignorant or B) disingenuous.

I'm going to disagree with you, also, that "the Dock is a joke" and "the keyboard will drive you mad" are "valid reasons". They're valid opinions, but they're not qualified reasons.

 

[Aurelius]

To answer the questions:

MacBooks have both Mini DisplayPort (through the Thunderbolt port) and, if it's a MacBook Pro, HDMI. Any standard MiniDP connector should work.

Both the Microsoft keyboard and Razer Naga should work (the latter may need software, as mentioned). However, you may want to ditch the MS keyboard eventually -- the Mac shortcuts should translate, but it's easier when you know exactly where the Apple/Option keys are supposed to be. That and you'll get more conspicuous shortcuts for things like Mission Control.

You can use Office 2013 if you run a virtual machine or install Windows in a Boot Camp partition, but why not just see if you can get a copy of Office 2011 for Mac (yes, it's due for an update soon)? Might as well work in a native environment.

Macs can only read NTFS-formatted drives out of the box, but it's not too hard to get drivers that will write as well. You're probably best migrating stuff to the Mac's native HFS+ system relatively quickly.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

As per my recent woes, I'm thinking I'll say goodbye to PC and try Mac. I want something that is more likely to just work, and I no longer need a computer for gaming.

I am not even sure of what questions I should be asking. I guess a few basic ones...

Would a Macbook be likely to have either mini display port or dual link DVI? That's a must, to drive my HP ZR30w monitor at 2560x1600. HDMI and VGA are out.

Current Mac models have Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt is Displayport compatible.

Would my MS Natural Keyboard Pro and Razer Naga mouse work, and would my Windows formatted HDDs and SSDs be read by the Mac OS?

Your keyboard and mouse both can be used, provided they are USB, which I assume they are. However, I would recommend not using a Windows keyboard in OSX, only because the position of the modifier keys are slightly different. You could still use it, but I personally feel the modifier changes are enough to warrant using a Mac specialized keyboard. You could just as easily do it and not care.

OSX is capable of reading but not writing NTFS partitions. If you plan to run OSX as your only operating system, I would recommend slowly reformatting everything to HFS+ as you are able. I did similar.

Sure would be nice to be able to use my MS Office 2013 suite, too.

Unfortunately you won't be able to carry over your current MS Office install. MS has it's own specialized version just for OSX. I use 2011 myself, and it's the same thing as the Windows version, albeit with a slightly different aesthetic. Just as an FYI, yes all the files are perfectly readable from OSX to Windows and vice versa. There isn't anything special about the Word Documents produced in OSX vs Windows.

Thanks.

Well, I hope it helps.

Don't do it.

Contrary to what you will read, OSX is NOT user friendly, intuitive, or easy to use. The exact opposite in fact. The keyboard layout will drive you mad, there are extra keys like Cmd, Option just to complicate things for no reason while it lacks basis like PgUp/Dn/Delete, Home/End don't work. The OS itself will seem like a toy after Windows, Finder/Dock are a joke, the only semi useful thing is Spotlight which you also have on Windows.

Command is the same thing as the Windows key. Option is the same thing as the ALT key. Do you have an issue with those same modifiers in Windows?

As for PGUP and PGDN, that is a very arbitrary issue. Essentially it sounds like this: you feel that Windows is easier to use because you have grown used to Windows paradigms and prefer the way that it does things. Anything counter to the paradigms you've used before you have no interest in learning, or adapting to. Rather than any change, you'd prefer the status quo.

The bottom line is that Windows and OSX aren't the same OS. The way they do things is inherently different. Expecting paradigms that have always been one way in one OS to be the same in the other is silly. It's all learned behavior. I'm certain we could have just as many people who grew up with OSX go on to use any version of Windows and complain about the exact same things "its unintuitive, it doesn't make sense". Why is it when I press the expand window button, it takes up the whole screen rather than just getting big enough to only show the contents of the folder? Why is it when I press enter, it executes instead of allowing me to rename?

If you don't like OSX, that's fine. We all have our preferences, and I feel that really people should buy the machine that is best going to suit their needs. If that's an HP/Sony/Dell etc, great. If it's a Mac, that's fine too. But just for reference, I used Windows exclusively for over 10 years (and Dos for quite a few years before that) before making the switch in 2008. I haven't ever had the desire to go back. I'm quite literally faster and more productive in OSX in comparison with Windows. For some others, I'm sure it's the opposite, but for me OSX has multiple virtual desktops (Spaces), better hotkeys, Quicksilver, Expose (or now Mission Control), amongst other things. Windows has none of them. It also has a serious Terminal, actual Virtual Machines, and the ability to make scripts. If you as a user don't want or need these things, that's fine, but to call an entire OS that tons of professionals use on a daily basis for serious work: "a joke" is a disservice.

Why doesn't Windows have those powerful tools then? I could argue that it makes it seem more like a toy, especially considering Windows' main attraction for people on this forum, that is to say games. Using your logic, I could just as easily say: OSX/Linux/Unix is about work, Windows is about Games. Your perspective is very narrow.

Mac's have terrible support for basics like multiple monitor, peripherals, interacting with anything not made by Apple. Only buy it if you want to get locked down in their ecosystem. Everything costs more too.

1.) Also not true. The only "Apple" items I use is literally the Mac itself and the full sized USB keyboard. I have an external Monitor made by Dell. I'm using 4 external HDs by various manufacturers. I installed a Samsung SSD into my iMac as well as Corsair RAM, and my mouse is manufactured by Logitech. I also use a PS3 controller on occasion for emulated games.

2.) Saying you're going to get locked down into Apple's ecosystem is also a bit of a misnomer. I could just as easily say that's what happens when you buy a PC as well. You're locked into that ecosystem. There are work arounds for everything. At least when you're in OSX, you have the option of either using Linux or Windows via VM or through dual boot. But installing OSX on a PC is wonky at best, and personally I feel it defeats one of OSX's strengths... stability.

3.) Everything does cost more, sure. But everything also sells for more (meaning you get your 'additional' money back). Also I feel that you get more for that money when buying a Mac. If you're the sort of individual that only looks at specs, sure, Windows boxes will always appear to be more bang for your buck. If you don't realize there is more than specs, then it will never make sense to use a Mac. Using the often overused car analogies, you could buy a Camaro for $23k with 323 HP or you could buy an entry level 428i BMW with 240 HP for $40k. If you don't understand what the BMW has to offer outside of HP and torque specs, then of course it seems like buying the less expensive option always makes more sense.

Apple has tons of intangibles, not limited to, but including aesthetic design, internal component design (yeap they're pretty and well thought out on the inside too), battery life, form factor, size, balance between components, Apple Care Warranty, etc. If you want horsepower at the cost of everything else, you're more than welcome to it. That's why there is more than one option on the market

I figured out most of these. Even wrote a script to remap Home/End to work like they do for the rest of the world (go to line begin/end) but its specific to each editor.

My point remains, OSX is needlessly complex, doesn't do the basic and obvious stuff and has a big learning curve with no reward.

1.) I went over most of this stuff earlier. Different paradigms, and there are more tools inherent to OSX to be more productive in comparison with Windows.

2.) Obvious isn't obvious. If it was, then moving from a command line interface (DOS) to a GUI (Windows) would have been an instant transition. It took years for the general business community to adapt. Heck, I deal with my parents all the time on this and it's not obvious to them (I think my Father would use a typewriter for everything if he could and he's a lawyer. I think the only thing he really appreciates is being able to look up case law online as opposed to using books).

You have a gifting to be able to be born at a time in which you got to start using computers early enough that they seem intuitive at all. But like those same people that were stuck on DOS trying to learn windows in the early 90's, you're stuck on Windows paradigms and refuse to want to transition to OSX ones. For reference, it's not like I never touch Windows machines now that I'm almost exclusively Mac based. But I don't sit around and moan that all of my hotkeys and virtual desktops don't work every time I work on a Windows based machine.

They're different... I don't see how you could expect them not to be. I imagine if you moved to BSD, Linux/Unix, etc you would have similar issues. But your ability to complain about them would be dampened because you know they're used for servers, whereas it's cool (especially on this forum) to make fun of Apple and OSX.

OSX like I briefly mentioned earlier also is used in serious industries. I'm a Photographer as an example, and it's virtually ubiquitous, and I mean for big multi $100k shoots, OSX is used. The same can be said for a lot of movie productions, and believe me when I say, movie shooting/producing is some of the most stringent, hardcore, just all-out work you can do. We make fun of movie stars all the time by looking at their lives, but they could have 4AM call times, 14 hour days, and just do that for 90 or 120 days in a row. Similarly the people working the production are working that hard or harder and are depending on OSX machines to get them through. The Cohen Brothers as an example edit exclusively in OSX. As does Pulitzer Prize winner Vincent Laforet. These machines are put through their paces believe me.

My brother is a Network System Administrator, and he prefers to use OSX for all his machines, even to interface with the Unix ones.

Still, I don't claim it's for everyone. Get the Ultrabook. Beg, borrow, or steal as the saying goes (I don't actually condone theft...). I added all these other points to hopefully give you perspective. No, I don't think that OSX is the end-all be-all. But it's not a joke. You have your preference and that's fine, but just because something isn't for you, doesn't make everyone who does use it foolish.

 

[Cheetoz]

The mouse will take some time to tweak with third party apps and terminal commands to work with osx built in mouse acceleration and stuff.

You can map the keyboard so that your macbook keyboard stays the same but your external one maps the windows key to the mac cmd key, etc...

Are there any other peripherals that you use/connect?

Not sure what else you would need to think about. Other than don't come to it with a mindset that you want it to be like windows. This always annoyed me on linux forums "i want it to be like windows, except for the parts where i don't want it to be!"

 

[mope54]

So my "crappy adapter" that came with my asus ultrabook is all of a sudden from China via eBay?

Sorry but now you are just trolling. The adapter is plug and play on any windows 7/8 computer. When it did work on os x I had manually install the drivers.

That is by no means better than windows. Maybe in your crazy world...

The adapter even works fine in parallels, its not that the adapter has issues or doesn't work on os x, its that apple blocked it, pure and simple.

how would I know where you got your peripheral from? But to answer your question, yes clearly your peripheral was made in China and only you know whether it's junk or not. I was explaining why Apple doesn't support every random peripheral that one can purchase from any random place.

That's good for you that your peripheral worked on your laptop, but that's not evidence it worked on everyone else's Windows laptop. That's your assumption.

Regardless, allowing something to be plugged into a port that fits without any technical support following is not "support." Case in point: what happened when your peripheral didn't work and you contacted ASUS for technical support?

The fact of the matter is that Apple excludes random 3rd party peripherals (sometimes, not even always), they refuse to support other people's hardware that they can't control the quality, and then they *support* their devices and peripherals. If you have a problem with an Apple branded product and you're using it with other Apple branded products and something doesn't work you can take it into an Apple branded store and get the problem addressed, fixed, or replaced at no charge to you.

Do you get that level of service from ASUS when your ASUS branded device doesn't work with the ASUS branded peripheral?

That's the kind of "support" I'm talking about in my "crazy world"

 

[munkle]

Wow... just wow... I want to meet you in real life, you are one special person.

how would I know where you got your peripheral from?

I don't know apparently you knew where I bought it from in your earlier post:

If you have a problem with a crappy adapter that you bought from China via eBay and it doesn't work then you're SOL with either company.

You're the one that told me I bought it on ebay, don't ask me how you would know that.

But to answer your question, yes clearly your peripheral was made in China and only you know whether it's junk or not. I was explaining why Apple doesn't support every random peripheral that one can purchase from any random place.

Never disputed it wasn't made in china. I'm not asking apple to support the peripheral, I don't think you get that, apple actively blocked it. The manufacturer supports it and even has a mac driver for it, its not their fault apple blocked it, not my fault. Has nothing to do with support other than apple doesn't want you to use it.

That's good for you that your peripheral worked on your laptop, but that's not evidence it worked on everyone else's Windows laptop. That's your assumption.

The fact that its plug and play is a pretty good assumption that it would work on any windows laptop, used it with 4 different laptops works fine on all of them, even the mac when I pass it through to parallels just not on osx. But hey in your crazy world plug and play support in windows means it might barely just work at all on maybe 1 laptop...

 

[mope54]

I do agree with you that it takes a special kind of person to have patience with you, but that's neither here nor there...

the fact of the matter is if you, or anyone else, procures a peripheral from some random source, and it doesn't work the company of your computer is not going to give you a second of their time. Since Apple has retail stores where people can walk in and drop their problems on a help desk they limit the peripherals to vendors that they can control the quality of the product and reduce the unknown variables.

The peripheral manufacturer can develop a driver if they want and it's their responsibility to ensure compatibility with the devices they claim with which it can be used.

And no, most people in here are more intelligent than to rely on plug and pray peripherals as any sort of evidence that the peripheral will work with something as vast as all windows platform configurations.

For the record, I don't even believe your story. Sounds more like pebkac and FUD to me. No one really cares that your ASUS adapter didn't work in OSX. It's certainly not evidence that Apple has poor peripheral support and isn't relevant to the questions in this thread in the least.

 

[MrCrispy]

Different OS's have their own paradigms, sure, but OSX design choices are clearly not very intuitive, whether its to a Windows user or a complete computer newbie.

e.g. in what possible way is the app metaphor easier? You can close a window, the app still runs, its still in the menu bar, with zero indication or usefulness. Window=app is a clearly understood concept by users and used in pretty much every other OS.

On my Mac, I can focus on an Outlook mail, then when I close it, Outlook suddenly comes to the foreground. It makes no sense, is not obvious to anyone. There is no way to distinguish open app windows from the dock. You have to enter expose, or open the app and then open app windows. Extra steps. The only way this is acceptable is OSX users grow accustomed to it.

OSX isn't even consistent. 3 finger down Expose - can't cancel it with Esc. 3 finger up, for app windows, you can Esc out. The OS abounds with little things like this that just don't work. Cursors don't update, too often I'll see a text cursor as I mouse over a button because it wasn't the active control at the time. I see the beach ball so much more than I ever saw an hourglass in Windows, and this is on a MBP with i7, 256GB SSD and Mavericks.

The only thing I really like is Terminal + zsh (much better than bash). But again, its only because Finder is such a poor joke compared to Explorer that you have to use the cmd line. For god's sake, OSX still doesn't have a decent free archive utility.

I'm not trying to be contrarian. I'm a software developer, I'll use whatever tool I have and try to learn it. I used to think Mac's were special, after using one for months I don't anymore.

 

[munkle]

Haha ok, believe what you want, you obviously don't understand plug and play, it means the os either shipped with the driver or automatically downloads it, meaning better support or since you don't like the term support, it means the os is helping you set up the device. it also means that the os isn't blocking the driver. But hatershaters gonna hate. You can respond all you want that you don't believe it, that it doesn't mean better support, or what ever you say is true and anything not pro Apple is false. So respond away that it is all lies I'm telling, or that other people in this thread that have problems are just trolls, because you know Apple never has issues...

I can give you another example to dismiss. Lets say you want to put files on android phone or get them off, with osx you have to download a seperate program to do it. Windows 7/8 will either automatically download and install or already has the driver necessary to connect to your phone, certain linux distros as well will also include the necessary software. This is what people mean by osx has bad peripheral support, either devices don't work or you have to go out and find some third party program to make it work. Osx makes no effort to try to help you out in these cases while plenty of other oses will.

If someone were to ask if osx supported flash drives you would think they were crazy, that's because it has support built in, used to be that you had to install drivers for flash drives way back when.

Edit: to be clear no one is asking apple to troubleshoot these devices to provide that kind of support since thats what you seem to be focusing on, just that it would be nice if the os actually helped you find the software/drivers, doesn't mean apple has to develop the drivers. Windows isn't perfect either, there's quite a few devices it can't find drivers for but it does a pretty good job for most hardware.

 

[wonderfield]

e.g. in what possible way is the app metaphor easier? You can close a window, the app still runs, its still in the menu bar, with zero indication or usefulness. Window=app is a clearly understood concept by users and used in pretty much every other OS.

OS X doesn't bind windows to processes. The notion that windows and processes are equivalent is a model some other window managers use (sometimes), but that does not make it 'correct', nor does it make it the most sensible concept. In Windows, it's also frequently an incorrect assumption that the window is bound to the process: not all applications are consistent in their behavior. Closing the window may kill the process; or it may not.

Even Microsoft doesn't consistently adhere to the same model. The close button in Defender/Security Essentials doesn't terminate the process. Closing out Notepad using the exact same approach, however, does. They pick and choose based on whatever they feel makes the most sense, leaving users to take a trial-and-error approach to understanding those actions. This, you feel, is intuitive?

Suffice it to say that the model of binding applications to windows in Windows doesn't make a lot of sense in most contexts. Some applications have no windows (in what context are they running?), so their window binding model is nonexistent, while other applications don't close when you close the last of their windows. Similarly, not only do the cluster of window buttons not have consistent targets conceptually (two of them target the window; the other the process. Or sometimes the window. Or sometimes nothing at all, if the developer elects), but the buttons can be made to do absolutely anything, to any target, in any context, and are frequently abused by developers. In OS X, the traffic lights target only the window, which makes quite a lot of sense considering they're, you know, part of the window.

Do both OSes have inconsistencies, gotchas and caveats? Absolutely. UX is hard, and getting it right 100% of the time is practically infeasible. As I said before, though, the suggestion that this a problem unique to OS X suggests either ignorance or dishonesty. Which do you feel it is?

 

[heatlesssun]

Similarly, not only do the cluster of window buttons not have consistent targets conceptually (two of them target the window; the other the process. Or sometimes the window. Or sometimes nothing at all, if the developer elects), but the buttons can be made to do absolutely anything, to any target, in any context, and are frequently abused by developers. In OS X, the traffic lights target only the window, which makes quite a lot of sense considering they're, you know, part of the window.

One thing that you're forgetting is that the close button in a Windows app, and this is even true of modern apps in 8.1 Update 1, almost invariably removes that window from the task bar even if there is a process associated with that window that is still running. I think the notion of UI consistency is a over thought sometimes. A desktop app on any modern platform can take on any kind of UI the developer desires. However the large bulk do conform to the basics. It just seems silly to debate 100% UI consistency especially for something like Windows that runs who knows how many apps that have been around in some cases before some people in this forum were born.

 

[Andyk5]

Don't do it.

Contrary to what you will read, OSX is NOT user friendly, intuitive, or easy to use. The exact opposite in fact. The keyboard layout will drive you mad, there are extra keys like Cmd, Option just to complicate things for no reason while it lacks basis like PgUp/Dn/Delete, Home/End don't work. The OS itself will seem like a toy after Windows, Finder/Dock are a joke, the only semi useful thing is Spotlight which you also have on Windows.

Mac's have terrible support for basics like multiple monitor, peripherals, interacting with anything not made by Apple. Only buy it if you want to get locked down in their ecosystem. Everything costs more too.

I'm typing this from a MBP that I use for work btw, and I wish I had my Ultrabook back.

I think this mans experience is very rare. Literally everyone including my self, among my friends, family and co-workers who switched to Mac feels like it is much more organized and easier to use.

As I said earlier, I used windows for 25 years, within a week I am more effective with Mac then I was with windows. Things work beautifully as you slide across folders, files, thinly lined windows all open up and close at the right spots, at the right sizes.

In a Mac , you do not have to be extremely organized. In a PC you have to. You have to make sure, everything is going to their respective directories and and you are periodically cleaning up your desktop from unused shortcuts and cluttered files.

In a Mac, you can be very sloppy like me and Mac keeps things fairly organized. I have 3 email adresses, 2 contact lists, 2 calendars, my home stuff, my work stuff ( a lot of stuff) and my school stuff, a drop box and a google drive all merged in one laptop and it works absolutely perfectly. There is no Windows version that can do that for me. Which is why I love this thing.

As far as the monitor support, I do not know what these people are talking about but I am writing this out of a late 2013 MBPr, connected to a 32inch Dell 4K and a 27inch Thunderbolt monitor, everything is working great. Believe it or not, I had this same DELL monitor with a brand new $4500 DELL laptop with a top notch video card and it only worked intermittently, cutting off the left or right sheets of the monitor randomly.
As far as cheap monitors, my girlfriend is using my old Korean 27inch $300 qnix 1440p monitor with her MBA and again it works excellent.

 

[QwertyJuan]

Don't do it.

Contrary to what you will read, OSX is NOT user friendly, intuitive, or easy to use. The exact opposite in fact. The keyboard layout will drive you mad, there are extra keys like Cmd, Option just to complicate things for no reason while it lacks basis like PgUp/Dn/Delete, Home/End don't work. The OS itself will seem like a toy after Windows, Finder/Dock are a joke, the only semi useful thing is Spotlight which you also have on Windows.

Mac's have terrible support for basics like multiple monitor, peripherals, interacting with anything not made by Apple. Only buy it if you want to get locked down in their ecosystem. Everything costs more too.

I'm typing this from a MBP that I use for work btw, and I wish I had my Ultrabook back.

Well... this basically sums everything up in a nutshell.

 

[QwertyJuan]

....Things work beautifully as you slide across folders, files, thinly lined windows all open up and close at the right spots, at the right sizes.

NO NO NO NO NO!!

That is one of the ABSOLUTE worst things about OSX.... my favorite part? When I'm working on someone's Mac and I click the + to "maximize" something and it just changes shape. Beautiful!

 

[heatlesssun]

In a Mac , you do not have to be extremely organized. In a PC you have to. You have to make sure, everything is going to their respective directories and and you are periodically cleaning up your desktop from unused shortcuts and cluttered files.

In a Mac, you can be very sloppy like me and Mac keeps things fairly organized. I have 3 email adresses, 2 contact lists, 2 calendars, my home stuff, my work stuff ( a lot of stuff) and my school stuff, a drop box and a google drive all merged in one laptop and it works absolutely perfectly. There is no Windows version that can do that for me. Which is why I love this thing.

Not really sure where you're getting this. Libraries take care of what you're talking about here, pretty much all modern programs that save end user files default the Library locations. Stuff gets on the desktop because people just put stuff there when there's really no need to or if a program installs a shortcut. I turn off my desktop icons so nothing on the desktop matters. As far as the scenario you described with email, contact lists and so forth, Outlook handles this stuff great and there are good Windows clients and tools for Dropbox and Google Drive.

 

[timmay]

there are extra keys like Cmd, Option just to complicate things for no reason

Cmd is the Windows Key, Option is ALT. No extra keys, no extra complication.

while it lacks basis like PgUp/Dn/Delete, Home/End don't work.

Pressing left arrow or right arrow moves the cursor one character back/forward. Holding Option moves the cursor one "word" back/forward. Holding Command moves the cursor to the beginning/end of the line.

Finder/Dock are a joke

What does the Windows taskbar do that the Dock doesn't?

Finder has some quirks, that's true. It's still a decent file explorer.

Mac's have terrible support for basics like multiple monitor, peripherals, interacting with anything not made by Apple.

Can you be more specific? I haven't had any trouble with my various printers, scanners, monitors.

Apple products tend to work exceptionally well together, that's true.

Only buy it if you want to get locked down in their ecosystem. Everything costs more too.

You're locked into any ecosystem you use. I don't see how the Mac is more restrictive than Windows in that regard.

I'm typing this from a MBP that I use for work btw, and I wish I had my Ultrabook back.

It sure sounds like it. Try to accept the Mac way of doing things instead of expecting everything to be like Windows. What would be the point of that?

Your post reads like when someone bashes programming language A because it does things different than his favorite programming language B.

 

[QwertyJuan]

....I have 3 email adresses, 2 contact lists, 2 calendars, my home stuff, my work stuff ( a lot of stuff) and my school stuff, a drop box and a google drive all merged in one laptop and it works absolutely perfectly. There is no Windows version that can do that for me. Which is why I love this thing.

Seriously dude?? Ever heard of Outlook? I bet you could setup 1,372 email accounts if I wanted to. Dropbox? Google Drive? Yeah... those are things that ONLY work on a Mac. No other Operating System is capable of installing third-party sync programs.

No WAY one could EVER install OneDrive, Dropbox, Google Drive AND Sugar Sync on the same Windows 7 install like I do here at work. LOL

 

[mope54]

Seriously dude?? Ever heard of Outlook? I bet you could setup 1,372 email accounts if I wanted to. Dropbox? Google Drive? Yeah... those are things that ONLY work on a Mac. No other Operating System is capable of installing third-party sync programs.

No WAY one could EVER install OneDrive, Dropbox, Google Drive AND Sugar Sync on the same Windows 7 install like I do here at work. LOL

I'm sure most people can distinguish between inputting one's log in credentials in a preference pane versus having to install a bunch of shit that runs in the background.

 

[QwertyJuan]

What does the Windows taskbar do that the Dock doesn't?

How about pinned Word/Excel/Publisher documents? (or whatever program you use frequently).

Once you use pinned documents you'll never want to be without them. I have certain files here at work that I can be in and out dozens of times a day. I don't have to minimize what I'm doing to open them up. I don't have to navigate to them to open them up. I don't have to open the program THEN go to recent files and find them to open them up. They are just there ready to be opened up at any given moment.

Home user? Not sure if it's that important? But for work? Incredibly useful.

In case you've never used Windows 7... this is what I'm talking about.

 

[QwertyJuan]

I'm sure most people can distinguish between inputting one's log in credentials in a preference pane versus having to install a bunch of shit that runs in the background.

Hey... if this is built into OSX then great! That is def. a plus... I've never seen it used before though.... tons of friends with Macs use Dropbox and SugarSync with me and ALL of them have the native apps installed on their machines.

 

[mope54]

How about pinned Word/Excel/Publisher documents? (or whatever program you use frequently).

Simply drag the file you use frequently to the Dock and it'll "pin" it there. One can also make Folders or Stacks to contain multiple files and then change the way each container looks when it opens (as a fan, a grid, or a list).

Hey... if this is built into OSX then great! That is def. a plus... I've never seen it used before though.... tons of friends with Macs use Dropbox and SugarSync with me and ALL of them have the native apps installed on their machines.

Dropbox and SugarSync aren't built into OS X yet but the person you were responding to seems to have found it easier and more enjoyable to do what he needs to do on a Mac, which is what is going to dictate how much work he does or doesn't get done in a day.

That said, I was happy to move away from half a dozen replicated services and simply use iCloud to sync everything. Now I no longer use Drive, DropBox, or SugarSync, or any of the other myriad other services I have forgotten more of than remember.

 

[MrCrispy]

OS X doesn't bind windows to processes. The notion that windows and processes are equivalent is a model some other window managers use (sometimes), but that does not make it 'correct', nor does it make it the most sensible concept. In Windows, it's also frequently an incorrect assumption that the window is bound to the process: not all applications are consistent in their behavior. Closing the window may kill the process; or it may not.

Even Microsoft doesn't consistently adhere to the same model. The close button in Defender/Security Essentials doesn't terminate the process. Closing out Notepad using the exact same approach, however, does. They pick and choose based on whatever they feel makes the most sense, leaving users to take a trial-and-error approach to understanding those actions. This, you feel, is intuitive?

Suffice it to say that the model of binding applications to windows in Windows doesn't make a lot of sense in most contexts. Some applications have no windows (in what context are they running?), so their window binding model is nonexistent, while other applications don't close when you close the last of their windows. Similarly, not only do the cluster of window buttons not have consistent targets conceptually (two of them target the window; the other the process. Or sometimes the window. Or sometimes nothing at all, if the developer elects), but the buttons can be made to do absolutely anything, to any target, in any context, and are frequently abused by developers. In OS X, the traffic lights target only the window, which makes quite a lot of sense considering they're, you know, part of the window.

Do both OSes have inconsistencies, gotchas and caveats? Absolutely. UX is hard, and getting it right 100% of the time is practically infeasible. As I said before, though, the suggestion that this a problem unique to OS X suggests either ignorance or dishonesty. Which do you feel it is?

In Windows, a UI window is bound to a running application, which makes total sense. A visible app has nothing to do with a background process/service, which is what you're talking about.

If OSX actually closed the visible app while letting the actual process run, I'd have no problem. But it doesn't. It chooses the most unhelpful and unintuitive model, i.e. the process keeps running AND you see the active app in the menu bar, but nowhere else. Its terribly confusing and serves no purpose. What you end up with is apps that run forever unless users do Cmd+Q which no one does.

Windows has a simple and elegant model - when you are done using an app, you X out of it (or Alt-F4). The app will close, and it its a process designed to run in the background or a service, it will keep running.

On OSX its the exact opposite. Every single app will keep running till you quit it. Quit and close are separate actions. Why??? Not everything is meant to run forever, in fact very few things are.

 

[MrCrispy]

Simply drag the file you use frequently to the Dock and it'll "pin" it there. One can also make Folders or Stacks to contain multiple files and then change the way each container looks when it opens (as a fan, a grid, or a list).


Dropbox and SugarSync aren't built into OS X yet but the person you were responding to seems to have found it easier and more enjoyable to do what he needs to do on a Mac, which is what is going to dictate how much work he does or doesn't get done in a day.

That said, I was happy to move away from half a dozen replicated services and simply use iCloud to sync everything. Now I no longer use Drive, DropBox, or SugarSync, or any of the other myriad other services I have forgotten more of than remember.

Exactly. Like I said, it makes sense if you want to lock yourself into Apple's walled garden. You can use any service like Dropbox, OneDrive, SugarSync etc, and they will all work on every platform. Everything except Apple services.

This whole 'I'll use it because its built in' only makes sense if its actually better. iCLoud isn't better (unless you only use Apple devices forever). Safari is similarly trash compared to modern browsers. Apple makes great integrated experiences that lack features, its not for everyone.