The majority that doesn't like it doesn't like it for factually based reasons.
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These Are the Websites Your Clean-Install Windows PC Connects to by Itself
- Thread starter Megalith
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Yes, 3rd party requirements are one of the major reasons anyone bothers with Win10 anymore. I would say that is more sad than a sign of how good it is.
BloodyIron
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heatlesssun
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What's even sadder though is how all these supposedly superior operating systems lack 3rd party support. Not OS is better than its ecosystem.
heatlesssun
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So can you name something specific that's built into a Windows 10 clean install not covered here?
heatlesssun
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Over the years what I have found most interesting in people promoting Linux is all of the native Windows software I've discovered. I'd bet there's more people using Libre Office on Windows (at least who have tried it or use it here and there like myself) than Linux simply because of the difference in number of users. Honestly compared to Office 2016 I think Libre Office is a piece of crap, hell it doesn't even have basic touch awareness like flick scrolling. Windows or Linux.
It's marketshare that feeds itself pass a certain point. And we all know that Microsoft hadn't gained the marketshare on its virtues and superior products alone.
Delicieuxz
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What's with these attempt to misdirect the arguments against Microsoft's data-harvesting to be about whether they cause damage? What's next - 'I can't find any reports that data-harvest makes milk go sour, so it's clearly not bad'? You may as well be arguing that since having your car's brakes cut without discovering it until you're on the highway doesn't give you the flu that it must not be a bad thing. Talk about reductio ad absurdum.
You'll have to figure out what the topic is before you'll be able to discuss it in a sensible way.
But, per your line of inquiry, I wonder how many Windows 10 (statistically the least-secure Windows OS to-date) security vulnerabilities are due to Microsoft's excessive and wanton data-harvesting.
The Microsoft Store can be disabled and uninstalled without impacting anything else.
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A thread about Microsoft's telemetry is the wrong place to discuss real-world implications. OK. Sorry to have offended you by discussing the wrong thing.
An analogy is synthetic benchmarks vs. real-world game testing. To me the synthetic benchmark in this case is how many addresses does a fresh install of windows contact. The real-world game testing is 'has anyone actually ever been hurt by it' or is it just a theoretical concern.
It's pretty clear to many of us, that if the user-base is close to a billion, and the OS has been out for years, and there is not ONE report of any actual damages, that the metric is non-meaningful.
Again I apologize for discussing real-world implications of a theoretical concern and I'll definitely avoid any threads discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, because I suspect the real-world implications are similarly inconsequential.
And how exactly is the most current and up to date, most-evolved, and most cumulatively patched OS the "(statistically the least-secure Windows OS to-date)"? Are you referring to security through obscurity? Doesn't seem so, since you do specify 'Windows OS'. I'd be interested to see how you support that contention.
Are you implying that more attacks exist for Windows 10 than previous Windows versions? A cursory search on my part for "windows 10 specific viruses" yields nothing. Fill us in please.
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Microsoft typing services for one, just off the top of my head. It's basically a built in keylogger...
There is also no way to turn off ETW, which is still pretty commonly exploited.
I am not saying windows is Evil, I am saying this is clearly an Olive branch from Microsoft to alleviate paranoia and fears, but it's missing a good number of it's leaves...
heatlesssun
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That's part of Cortana but it can be managed separately: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/wi...onents-to-microsoft-services#bkmk-priv-speech. All of this stuff has long been documented, it's what enterprises use as a zero emissions guide.
Delicieuxz
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You using a straw man to rationalize your own arguments, which themselves were straw man arguments, is like a bad parody of Inception.
Calling over 600 million but less than 700 million "close to a billion" is a pretty big stretch, don't you think? And repeating your prior straw man doesn't rationalize it.
Also, you've very wrong: This thread and most others on the topic of data harvesting are filled with reports of damages caused by Microsoft's data-harvesting business philosophy. There are damages to personal privacy, damages to people's comfort in their own OSes, damages to OS security caused by all the data-streaming points MS has put into Windows 10 so they can harvest personal data, damages to people's OS configurations when Microsoft without authorization resets Windows settings to the MS defaults so that MS can harvest more data, bricked OSes due to forces updates which Microsoft does so that they can impose more data-harvesting on people, damages to peoples' stress levels due to having to deal with non-authorized data-harvesting and configurations resetting and bricked systems due to Microsoft forcing updates to get more personal data harvested, damages to people's free time with all the effort that needs to be made to researching and dealing with limiting MS data-harvesting... and lots more.
There are costly damages caused by Microsoft's illegal, greedy, and outright evil data-harvesting in Windows 10 that are plain to witness all around you, if you have an unbiased perception. If you can't see them then you're not tuned in to the real world that's around you.
There's nothing theoretical about people's concerns, or about the wide array of issues caused by Microsoft's data-harvesting.
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heatlesssun
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What does superior mean? To 700 million or so it's going to have different meanings. Some here will claim that Linux is just dandy for gaming. For some that may be true. For something like my sig rig Linux is beyond pointless for gaming as it simply doesn't work with even half. So not all that superior in that particular situation.
You like to argue or something. I'm not sure what a straw man is. Or an absurdo inquisition or whatever. I started off a couple pages ago asking if this was a real problem, if anyone had a link to anyone getting hurt by this telemetry. I don't want to argue about how many people use Windows 10 either. I know it's millions and millions. Over half the Windows Installs in existence now which are over 80% of all OSs. Is that acceptable to you?
And I haven't seen a link to a report of any damages.
You claim this thread is filled with reports of damages caused by the telemetry which you claim is 'data-harvesting'. OK, I seem to have missed those links. I saw a link to a Dutch and a Brazilian attempt to sue Microsoft over it.
You claim 'bricked OS's due to forced updates. Any evidence that there are more bricked OS's due to the telemetry? You think maybe it serves a purposes like 'crash reports' and the telemetry might actually make for less bricks?
You claim 'stress levels' due to data-harvesting. Um, doesn't bother a lot of us, think maybe you're stressing yourself out about nothing?
You claim 'damages to free time' due to 'all the effort that needs to be made to research, bla bla bla'. A lot of us put zero effort into it because it doesn't seem to actually cause any harm.
I mean you do know that all your emails and texts and everything you type is monitored by people other than Microsoft anyway right?
I personally kind of like Microsoft. I don't think they're an 'illegal, greedy, and outright evil …..' I think they make some awesome software that runs great and seems to get better and better all the time.
I haven't seen any proof that the telemetry ever hurt anyone out of the millions of people that use it, and it probably helps my machines run smooth.
Again, I welcome any links to reports of anyone ever suffering real-world damages other than Delicieuxz's claimed mental anguish.
heatlesssun
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I guess all of these people feeling stress over Windows 10 don't use smartphones.
jnemesh
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You like to argue or something. I'm not sure what a straw man is. Or an absurdo inquisition or whatever. I started off a couple pages ago asking if this was a real problem, if anyone had a link to anyone getting hurt by this telemetry. I don't want to argue about how many people use Windows 10 either. I know it's millions and millions. Over half the Windows Installs in existence now which are over 80% of all OSs. Is that acceptable to you?
And I haven't seen a link to a report of any damages.
You claim this thread is filled with reports of damages caused by the telemetry which you claim is 'data-harvesting'. OK, I seem to have missed those links. I saw a link to a Dutch and a Brazilian attempt to sue Microsoft over it.
You claim 'bricked OS's due to forced updates. Any evidence that there are more bricked OS's due to the telemetry? You think maybe it serves a purposes like 'crash reports' and the telemetry might actually make for less bricks?
You claim 'stress levels' due to data-harvesting. Um, doesn't bother a lot of us, think maybe you're stressing yourself out about nothing?
You claim 'damages to free time' due to 'all the effort that needs to be made to research, bla bla bla'. A lot of us put zero effort into it because it doesn't seem to actually cause any harm.
I mean you do know that all your emails and texts and everything you type is monitored by people other than Microsoft anyway right?
I personally kind of like Microsoft. I don't think they're an 'illegal, greedy, and outright evil …..' I think they make some awesome software that runs great and seems to get better and better all the time.
I haven't seen any proof that the telemetry ever hurt anyone out of the millions of people that use it, and it probably helps my machines run smooth.
Again, I welcome any links to reports of anyone ever suffering real-world damages other than Delicieuxz's claimed mental anguish.
You never looked up the legal definition of "standing". In order to file a lawsuit, the plaintiff has to show that they are directly negatively affected by the practice they are suing Microsoft over. Since we have ongoing lawsuits, the question of damages has been settled and filed in court. You would KNOW this if you actually READ the links I sent you! But here you are, digging the hole deeper! You, sir, are what we define around here as an "idiot". And we don't have to indulge your WILLFULL ignorance by debating each of your points. We can safely dismiss your comments as unintelligent and uninformed and move on.
Shotglass01
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I feel like you;re parroting the below every time I see this 'I get that people have problems with it but....'
That said, too many sites. Win 10 NO! Bad touch!
Delicieuxz
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Then maybe if you were aware of what it is you might not do it so much. So, here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
heatlesssun
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I feel like you;re parroting the below every time I see this 'I get that people have problems with it but....'
LOL! It's just that if Windows 10 were as bad as some report it to be then no one could use it. If something else works better for than Windows 10 then that's what they should be using. The anger comes from folks when you tell them "Hey I'm using Windows 10 because the alternatives flat out don't work for my purposes."
heatlesssun
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You keep referring to straw man arguments when all that was being ask of you was proof of your claims. If Microsoft is selling personal information, and by that I mean personally identifiable information, coming out of Windows 10, you're going to need proof of that because the implications of this are so deep and consequential that a logical person would think if you had such proof, we'd all have seen it by now.
It seems it's something that people who like to argue throw around. I'm not interested in arguing, just interested in some proof, which should be in abundance, but links to damages are sadly lacking ITT. IANAL or trying to sue Microsoft so arcane self-referential legalese goes way over my head.
Your claim that 'they are suing Microsoft so they must have been damaged' carries no weight for my concerns. You know someone successfully sued McDonald's for the coffee being too hot when they spilled their drink and burned themselves? Pretty frivolous to those of us who like hot coffee.
And according to some they would have had 'standing' if their feelings were hurt or time wasted because they spent hours futzing with their install due to paranoia.
I'm not looking for arguments, just any reports of this being a real problem, other than to the 'feelings' crowd or the lawyers, who we all know have never made a mountain out of a molehill.
Delicieuxz
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Ah, heatlessun. Is there any topic you can't mangle with your Microsoft fanboyism? Now you're pulling a straw man argument, yourself, as I didn't claim that Microsoft's data-harvesting in Windows 10 was causing "damage" and wasn't called on to substantiate that claim before I pointed out that Izord was engaging in straw man arguments - though, I then did give examples of how Microsoft's data-harvesting practices were indeed causing damages.
It wasn't pointed out that Izord (and now yourself) was making straw man arguments in response to any calls to prove that Microsoft is selling personal data. In fact, the topic of Microsoft selling personal data hadn't been raised in this discussion by anyone other than you. Have you perchance gotten drunk in the middle of the day? Because you aren't following this topic in a coherent and logical manner.
I mentioned that Microsoft is commercializing people's Windows 10 systems by harvesting data (which as the Dutch DPA has confirmed is all personal data) from people's systems for Microsoft's sole benefit - something that Microsoft is inarguably doing. But you then brought up Microsoft selling personal data, and then you went further to re-frame the data that needs to be proven that Microsoft is selling as "personally identifying" - a qualifier I have not used. You also falsely claimed that I specifically mentioned that Microsoft selling personal data in this thread. I didn't.
But, to humour you, Microsoft is indeed selling the data they harvest from people's Windows 10 systems. Aside from that being the obvious business model with Windows 10 and Microsoft service data-harvesting, and aside from Microsoft paying lobbyists to oppose California's new law requiring tech and software companies to provide an option for people to opt-out of having their data sold, Microsoft even state it for themselves, as I know you are already aware of:
https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com...ows-10-telemetry-updates-diagnostic-tracking/
"The Microsoft Data Management Service routes information to internal cloud storage, where it's compiled into business reports for analysis and research."
"The privacy governance team permits access only to people with a valid business justification."
"However, we do share business reports with partners that include aggregated, anonymous telemetry information."
Microsoft isn't its own partner. A partner means a 3rd-party. A business agreement with a 3rd-party means a profitable transaction. What Microsoft is saying, in a sterilized PR manner, is that they sell the data they collect through Windows 10 to whoever has the money to pay for it - just like Facebook does.
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heatlesssun
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LOL! This has info has been out since Windows 10 launched and it's not personal data, i.e. data that is personally identifying. Yeah they might share data when they see a problem like there was with the Intel 650 SSD. "Hey we see a problem with this piece of hardware or software. Let's not inform the OEM or developer of the problem because anonymous guys on the internet think that's selling personal information."
You like to argue or something. I'm not sure what a straw man is. Or an absurdo inquisition or whatever. I started off a couple pages ago asking if this was a real problem, if anyone had a link to anyone getting hurt by this telemetry. I don't want to argue about how many people use Windows 10 either. I know it's millions and millions. Over half the Windows Installs in existence now which are over 80% of all OSs. Is that acceptable to you?
And I haven't seen a link to a report of any damages.
You claim this thread is filled with reports of damages caused by the telemetry which you claim is 'data-harvesting'. OK, I seem to have missed those links. I saw a link to a Dutch and a Brazilian attempt to sue Microsoft over it.
You claim 'bricked OS's due to forced updates. Any evidence that there are more bricked OS's due to the telemetry? You think maybe it serves a purposes like 'crash reports' and the telemetry might actually make for less bricks?
Physical harm ? most likely little to none or not documented.
but depending on how you define harm windows 10 as well as other microsoft products could be responsible for a great deal of harm . depending on if you consider the loss of time as harmful.
Since i do consider the loss of time harmful anything that creates a loss of time for me or others is perceived as a problem .
unfortunately a good deal of other people dont see this as an issue, because its not their time lost, and consider others time lost as a trivial non-incident. dismissing any complaints about the loss time and or money as trivial complaints not worth taking into consideration.
I feel their is enough circumstantial evidence alone with how windows 10 borks its self after updates to give cause for concern about its telemetry practices.
one of the most telling example of this is the interesting issue where the keyboard no longer works after an update. and its not just a simple the keyboard is not working its any keyboard and to top it all off the keyboard is not working in the recovery environment either.
so in my opinion thats pretty alarming to have something that low of level in the NT code base to be undergoing constant changes every major update.
This is something pretty new to windows 10 (sure windows 7 and xp had a few keyboard issues but these were driver/filter issues)
this should be rock solid stable by now, but with them apparently mucking around with it, does give cause for concern.
Getting back to harm caused , these machines that are down whether its due to hung never ending updates or broken keyboards they are forced into a position where they either become less productive.
or they need to expend time and or money to become productive again.
in this regard i blame microsoft windows 10 for the majority of the damage done to the pc industry as a whole as people have given up on waiting for their windows 10 machine to update and just went to alternative forms of getting their work done. because they dont have time for the BS.
and i cant fault them. the only thing i can do is offer them windows 7 a stable unchanging base product that will work and work well with out 3rd and first party intervention. (unfortunately microsoft is dead set against that being a valid option also)
or switch them to linux with the understanding they will undergo a whole new set of hurdles to learn and work through .
honestly the industry is a disaster right now due to outright aggressive marketing of trying to push everyone into a service as a business model . that it has truly harmed the small businesses of America who relied on stable unchanging tools to get work done.
because apparently buying your tools once is now not enough to keep companies profitable. they now need to be intertwined and tapped into your data and or bank accounts to remain profitable.
and that is BS.
but unfortunately we no longer have an industry who rails against business practices, that may be harmful to the consumer and or businesses we now just accept every thing as great and jump onboard
because of progress.. be damned what we lose .
Delicieuxz
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What does whether the data is personally-identifiable or not have to do with anything? I didn't say that Microsoft was selling personally-identifiable data, but that Microsoft is selling data (and that data is personal data, even if it isn't personally-identifiable).
Also, there is nothing to indicate that Microsoft isn't selling personally-identifiable data and Microsoft's word on that matter counts for nothing since they lie as routine just as they did when claiming that all of the data they collect is anonymous, while the Dutch DPA proved with Microsoft's own internal telemetry traffic-monitoring tool that all the data Microsoft harvests in Windows 10 is tagged with numerous personal identifiers. BTW, Microsoft's claim that the data they collect is anonymous was an obvious lie even before it was proven to be a lie - and I was saying it was a BS claim by MS long before the Dutch DPA proved my claims to be true.
Why anyone would believe something that Microsoft says is beyond me. Especially someone with an apparent interest in Microsoft such as yourself. Surely, you know Microsoft's lengthy history of lying, cheating, being a thug, exploiting people, manipulating their customers, secretly voluntarily giving personal and personally-identifiable data to US government agencies... yet you choose to be apologist for Microsoft all the same. I wonder why.
For everyone asking for proof of telemetry causing harm, there is none that I know of, and there probably never will be unless Microsoft got incredibly sloppy. The telemetry with Windows 10 isn't my main issue with it (mandatory updates are). Whether there's evidence or not, it's very short sighted to not see the harm from this. To me it's obvious:
1. It's normalizing invasion of your system and data you transmit. I can fully believe Microsoft does nothing harmful with that data today, so what? They're establishing a precedent. In 10 years, there could be another company jumping on that train (or a shift in Microsoft leadership wanting to monetize the data more heavily) that DOES sell your data to sources that come back to cause problems for you. This is "slippery slope" of privacy in action and Windows 10 represents the sliding.
2. Everything is opaque, that's the point. Maybe Microsoft HAS caused harm, but it's too far removed and we can't see the trail, so we'll never know. Did Equifax get some of your info from a 3rd party MS sold them some data too? We'll never know. Hence the reason that this is a terrible precedent.
3. There's just plain loss of rights for the consumer. You should have the option to turn off telemetry, the end. You shouldn't have to broadcast whatever info the company wants from you just to use a fucking computer. Sure, you can simply not use it, but MS has a de facto monopoly on the desktop, so it's just a hostile move handling it like this.
For everyone who still sees no problem with any of this, all I can say is enjoy your brave new world.
1. It's normalizing invasion of your system and data you transmit. I can fully believe Microsoft does nothing harmful with that data today, so what? They're establishing a precedent. In 10 years, there could be another company jumping on that train (or a shift in Microsoft leadership wanting to monetize the data more heavily) that DOES sell your data to sources that come back to cause problems for you. This is "slippery slope" of privacy in action and Windows 10 represents the sliding.
2. Everything is opaque, that's the point. Maybe Microsoft HAS caused harm, but it's too far removed and we can't see the trail, so we'll never know. Did Equifax get some of your info from a 3rd party MS sold them some data too? We'll never know. Hence the reason that this is a terrible precedent.
3. There's just plain loss of rights for the consumer. You should have the option to turn off telemetry, the end. You shouldn't have to broadcast whatever info the company wants from you just to use a fucking computer. Sure, you can simply not use it, but MS has a de facto monopoly on the desktop, so it's just a hostile move handling it like this.
For everyone who still sees no problem with any of this, all I can say is enjoy your brave new world.
Part of the problem is that the environment is changing. For a disconnected system, sure you could use Windows 7 forever and be happy. Nothing's changing, you can write your memoirs or run your peripherals indefinitely in your bunker. But most people are connected to the internet, and there's a constantly evolving threat. As well as peripherals and interfaces and protocols are constantly evolving. What worked ten years ago would be infected rapidly or not even connect to today's peripherals. I'm talking about non-supported, non-updated OS's.
I haven't experienced the keyboard issue on any of my Windows 10 machines. Is that related to the telemetry or just updates in general?
Another good reason to update is to keep the overall environment safer for everyone. How about the botnets of thousands of non-updated machines that have been infected and are sending out spam and viruses and DOS attacks to the rest of the internet?
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oopspowsurprise
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Make security based systems use Linux type OS, and for JUST gaming (no email-no work related tasks) use Windows 10.
With Windows 10 if your pc is "Bob", and then with VPN your pc becomes "James"... Windows 10 telemetry apps are collectively calling home with info that I bet can reveal "I'm Bob appearing as James".
With Windows 10 if your pc is "Bob", and then with VPN your pc becomes "James"... Windows 10 telemetry apps are collectively calling home with info that I bet can reveal "I'm Bob appearing as James".
heatlesssun
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How many people and companies develop products for Windows? Yeah, they share information with folks like that. You and other people have turned what is normal communications into some nefarious plot without a second's thought.
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heatlesssun
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Microsoft didn't. Smartphones and connected services well before Windows 10 did that.
I'll go out on a limb and say that perhaps If it's not personally-identifiable it can't hurt you? Just maybe?
And I'll go a little further and say that it's accepted, say in scientific and medical papers, that it's legit to use data that came from subjects with personal-identifiers stripped off. Yes, they generally have consented to be included in studies, but not all published case reports.
Microsoft can very well say that you consented to the TOS when you activated Windows.
Those aren't desktop systems. Desktops have been around for decades before smartphones existed and never had this as a precedent. On the contrary, desktops have traditionally been known for having control over your system and using them how you want.
heatlesssun
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Desktops existed long before the internet as we know it today. Disconnected apps, no services, that's all that there was so it's not like there some grand design choice involved, it's just what was possible.
As for as control over a device, sure I get the issues with Windows 10. But it's not like anyone can install a Linux distro and do whatever they may want, that's going to be limited by 3rd party support and technical skill. If there were some other desktop operating that provided all of this control without tons of tweaking or needing to understand the internals of everything while at the same time allowing people to access the everything available in the Windows ecosystem we'd all be using that, especially if it's free.
Delicieuxz
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I've put together a bunch of different ways to disable Windows Update in Windows 10 here:
https://linustechtips.com/main/blog...ways-to-disable-windows-update-in-windows-10/
Have you confirmed this won't reactivate? I had someone report to me that it would re-enable via the Windows Store if it saw that Windows Update had been turned odd (not using Store, just having it on your system) and bypass your settings that way. That was March of this year though. Point is, how long have you tested these methods don't reactivate at a later date?
BloodyIron
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Most users don't use a touch interface for writing documents or spreadsheetts. So while it is a tangible feature difference, it would not be important to the statistical majority of users for either product.
Delicieuxz
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The methods listed there should work. I haven't tested them all myself, but a bunch of them come directly from Microsoft's own documents and online support chat post Windows 10 1803
SuperSubZero
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I've been seeing enough touch screen laptops with telltale finger smears along the edges to know that people are using touch screens with Word and Excel, if just to scroll through them.
BloodyIron
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I'm sure the feature will come with time, but a lot of work is already being poured into other areas of the tools.
Since it's open source you could always go post in their repository doing a feature request for touch support. I do that all the time for open source projects, and almost every time it gets implemented. It's pretty awesome!
Show me a way to do THAT with MS Office
Since it's open source you could always go post in their repository doing a feature request for touch support. I do that all the time for open source projects, and almost every time it gets implemented. It's pretty awesome!
Show me a way to do THAT with MS Office