Theatron DTS (with C-Media 8788) - Lots of pictures (56k beware)

[cirerita]

I received my card yesterday. I tried to get the Inferno, but it was $188, shipping included to Spain -yes, I live in Spain - and the b-Enspirer was slightly cheaper, but not that much, so I finally decided to get the Theatron DTS for 69 euros (roughly $90). After all, they all have the same CMI-8788 audio chip, so they should perform similarly -that's my guess.

here's the info provided once the drivers are installed. I guess that's the latest driver -I downloaded it from Club 3D page, for some reason the C-Media page is not working!.

DTS and DD can be sent to the external receiver via the SPDIF output. I also can do that with the onboard nforce2 chipset I have on my AN7.

DTS passthrough:

DTS decoding by the soundcard:

So far so good. The problem lies with the 96/24 stereo or 48/24 multichannel pcm signal. For the life of me that I can't send them via SPDIF. All the decoding is done by the soundcard.
See an example. This a 48/24 multichannel pcm track. PowerDVD says SPDIF is in use, but you can see that the soundcard is doing the decoding. Also, the receiver says it's PCM stereo. I tried Digital Audio 48khz, 44.1khz and 96khz with 2, 4 or 6 speakers, but I always got PCM stereo, and it's definitely 5.1. What am I doing wrong here???? I thought I could send the signal via SPDIF to the receiver.

I also tried a 96/24 stereo pcm signal, but no luck. SPDIF seems not to work (notice the option is grayed out in the Windvd audio filter window).

If I try 6 speakers -instead of 2- there's no change. It seems that the card only sends a 2ch signal, no matter what I change in the CMedia main window.

The BIG question is: how am I supposed to play the 48/24 multichannel pcm signal and the 96/24 stereo LPCM signal???

 

[cirerita]

More info:

again, the 96/24 LPCM signal. Before I was playing it with Zoomplayer and Intervideo Audio Decoder, now I'm playing it with PowerDVD. Same thing:

Funnily enough, if I try Videolan, things change a bit. It **seems** that the signal is sent to the receiver via SPDIF and the receiver does the decoding.

When I choose Audio Digital 96khz and use Videolan, it seems to work... but, honestly, if I switch to Audio Digital 48khz there's no audible difference at all (the decoding seems to be done by the soundcard, not by the receiver):

You thought that was that? No way The 96/24 LPCM signal can be decodec by the soundcard and then sent to the receiver via SPDIF using PowerDVD, Videolan or Zoomplayer with Intervideo audio Decoder.

But what happens if you play the file with WinDVD? Ha, take a look:

The signal seems to be downsampled to 48/16 and I only hear noise!!!! However, the same LPCM signal works ok with Zoomplayer and the same WinDVD audio decoder.

However, using WinDVD, a regular 48/16 signal is properly sent via SPDIF to the receiver, which does all the decoding:

 

[n1ce_hat]

Lots of great info, thanks for this! I hate how you can't do much with the audio when you passthrough SPDIF, at least thats how my M-Audio Revolution 7.1 works, and it looks like thats how yours works too.

 

[alg7_munif]

The card doesn't support DD/DTS decoding, it only supports DD/DTS encoding. If you have a 6-channel PCM source, the card can encode the sound into DD/DTS to be decoded by the receiver. If you doesn't encode it to DD/DTS, only 2-channel will be transfered through spdif. When playing a DD/DTS source, the card will just pass it through. It will not do any decoding.

 

[cirerita]

thanks, but DD/DTS is not the problem. I always send the DD/DTS signal via SPDIF and the receiver does the decoding.

The problem are the 96/24 (stereo) and 48/24 (multichannel) pcm sources I have. I thought the CMI8788 could handle up to 192/24 8ch signals!!!! I mean, if I use the card just to encode the PCM sources into DD/DTS, well, the nforce2 already does that -well, just DDL.

Are all the CMI8788 cards limited to stereo when sending the pcm signals over SPDIF???

 

[alg7_munif]

A single SPDIF output can only give you a stereo PCM sound. For more channels PCM output you need HDMI or more SPDIF outputs. CMI8788 could handle 192/24 8ch signal but the signal is sent to the DAC on the card, not to the SPDIF output. Only 2 channels is sent through the SPDIF output. With X-Meridian you can get a 8-channel PCM if you buy the extension board. With the extension board the 8-channel PCM sound is sent to the DAC on the X-Meridian card and also it can be sent to the DIN output on the extension board. I think that the DIN output can be converted into 4 SPDIFs output or HDMI.

 

[cirerita]

so what's the advantage of having a modern CMI8788 over an old nforce2? That audio chipset already had DDL and I think you could also send 2 ch signals over SPDIF...

and what's the point of sending the 192/24 8ch signal to the DAC of the card? To send it to the receiver via analogue???

do you have the Meridian extension board? will your card be HDMI compatible somehow -with an adaptor or something????


Finally, if 192/24 multichannel signals can be sent over the analogue output, is it worth doing that? I mean, will that sound better than encoding the pcm signal and sending it to the receiver via SPDIF as DD or DTS? I say this because I have no analogue cables, but if it's really worth it I could buy the required cables... if you have the analogue cables, could you please point me to the right direction to get them?? I really have no idea which are the ones to get...

 

[alg7_munif]

192khz is the sample rate of the digital signal. You will need a 192khz capable DAC to convert the digital signal into analogue signal. When the signal is already in analogue then there will be no more 192khz sample rate for the analogue signal. Only sounds in digital media have sample rates, for example CD 44.1kHz, DD/DTS 48kHz & DVD Audio 96/192kHz. The advantage of having a modern CMI8788 over the older nForce2 is you can use the DTS encoding which has a higher bit rate than DD. You can also use the card on others mobo because you can't take out your Sound Storm. I don't have the extension board of the X-Meridian and I think that the extension board is still not sold yet. I'm sure that the extension board can be used with HDMI but I think that it is really hard to find a DIN to HDMI converter. If you want to send a 192khz digital signal to the receiver, you must make sure that your receiver have a 192khz capable DAC. All digital PCM signal must be converted into analogue, you can't just take a digital PCM signal and put it directly to the speaker. Normally the conversion on a HT receiver will produce a better sound but conversion on a sound could also be better sometimes.

 

[cirerita]

these are my HK AV3000 specs:

The remainder of the unit is very sensibly laid out - a Cirrus Logic Crystal CS493236-CL lies at its heart, backed up by three Crystal CS4391 192kHz 24-bit digital-to-analogue converters. This is essentially the same 'DSP' board as found in the AVR 4000 and similarly, it offers MPEG1 Layer-III (MP3) decoding plus the ability to accept 96kHz 24-bit PCM signals from a suitable source (the digital receiver is a Crystal CS8414).

Will it be able to handle the 192/24 or 96/24 stereo pcm sources I have?

Also, did you say that sometimes it sounds better via analogue but other times it sounds better re-encoding the pcm source to DD or DTS and sending it via SPDIF to the receiver??? I'm really confused there. What's the point of buying analogue cables if it won't sound better... or maybe it will???

Finally, I'm not sure the 96/24 pcm stereo signal is working properly. Please take a close look at the pics. When choosing "96khz Digital Audio" in the Oxygen HD main window, it seems that the decoding is being done by the soundcard -except when using Videolan- and not by the receiver. Sure, the receiver says PCM stereo, but where's the decoding being done???

 

[alg7_munif]

Your receiver can only accept up to 96/24 digital signal. Analogue will sound better if you have a good sound card and I don't think that the Theatron DTS is better than your receiver. The sound card didn't do any decoding.

 

[cirerita]

thanks for the explanation, but this is very confusing to me.

ok, my HK only handles 96/24 digital signal, but what about analogue? In that quote, it seems to say it handles 192/24 digital-to-analogue conversion? How does that translate in the real world ?

How can we know that the pcm stereo signal is decoded by the receiver (and not by the soundcard)??? If there's no stereo pcm -->DTS/DD conversion, then I assume that the stereo pcm signal is sent as is (no conversion) via the SPDIF output and the receiver decodes it, right?

Do you use your Meridian analogue connection? Is it any good? I guess it depends on the receiver you have, right?

 

[cirerita]

I guess that what I've been trying to say all along is: how am I supposed to play the drm-free 192/24 stereo pcm, 96/24 stereo pcm and 48/24 multichannel pcm signals with my equipment???

The 96/24 stereo pcm signal is probably the highest drm-free quality audio DVD in the market right now, right? I just trying to find the way to hear those DVDs the way they're meant to be heard...

how would you play them?

 

[alg7_munif]

Just play it with any player as it is not protected, set the spdif out rate at the same rate as the source, set the speaker to 2channels, turn off all effects and set all volumes to full if you want to get a bit perfect output.

 

[Omegaslast]

Lots of great info, thanks for this! I hate how you can't do much with the audio when you passthrough SPDIF, at least thats how my M-Audio Revolution 7.1 works, and it looks like thats how yours works too.

why would you want to change this!?!? right now im passing stuff through soundstorm and i know my computer is tampering with it and it sounds like junk compared to my cd player

 

[cirerita]

ok, let's use the unprotected 96/24 stereo pcm signal example.

In the CMedia control panel, I choose "Digital Audio 96khz" and set the speakers to 2 ch.

Then in PowerDVD's audio control panel, should I choosed "SPDIF" or "2 speakers"???

 

[alg7_munif]

I think that 2 speakers is better because some softwares will limit the ouput if you are using spdif. As long as the card get the sound from the software, you can send the sound out through spdif or analogue or DD/DTS encoding with the correct driver settings.

 

[cirerita]

problem is, I get sound from all possible combinations: all audio digital outputs and DD/DTS encoding. To my ears, DD/DTS encoding sounds way better than any of the audio digital output (48/24 or 96/24) and I thought it should be otherwise, that is, the pure 96/24 should sound better than the 96/24 re-encoded one...

 

[alg7_munif]

Is it better because the sound is surround? Maybe you like the sound positioning done with DD/DTS encoding. To really hear the difference between a 48khz source a 96khz source, you also need a really good speaker. With my Logitech speaker, the difference between X-Fi and X-Meridian is not very big but with my headphones, the X-Meridian really makes the X-Fi sound cheap.

 

[cirerita]

I have an Infinity Alpha 5.1 speaker system hooked up to the HK AV3000. I should notice a difference in quality, I think.

The 96/24 pcm stereo signal sounds "muddier" than the pcm-->DD encoding. The DD sounds crispier and clearer somehow. I had always thought that it would be otherwise, that the pure 96/24 pcm stereo signal (not encoded to DD) should sound MUCH better than the encoded one... (I'm using no effects at all, just the sound as it is).

Do you think analogue would make a difference?

as to softwares limiting the output, you were definitely right. If I choose "SPDIF" output in PowerDVD, then there's no bit perfect output (you can see the equalizer band is on, which should mean that the decoding is done by the soundcard or the output is not bit perfect), but if I choose "2 speakers stereo", I think I can it is the bit perfect output (though I cannot hear any noticeable difference).

see pics. using SPDIF output (equalizer is on):

2 speakers stereo output (equalizer is off):

I also downloaded WinDVD 8 trial (though it's buggy as hell), and sure, it says the source is 96/24 pcm stereo, but if you choose the SPDIF output, the equalizer is on again.
Notice there's already a HDMI output option (though it's grayed out and cannot be used in the trial mode):

however, it says that the source (96/24) is being output as 96/24 and that the SPDIF is not being used... oh, well...

as an endnote, I also tried this with Zoomplayer and several codecs and it plays fine (bit perfect output) with Nero Digital, FFDShow audio and Nvidia Audio Decoder 3+.

 

[alg7_munif]

I don't think that the card's analogue would be better than your receiver. If you use analogue, I think that your receiver will only amplify the sound. A bit perfect output doesn't always give a "better sound" but it will give the original sound, encoding however will change the sound a bit.

 

[cirerita]

that's what's bugging me. If I were playing an mp3 or even a FLAC source, I couldn't care less, but, c'mon, we're talking about 96/24 pcm stereo sources, the highest unprotected quality audio DVD there's in the market right now. A bit perfect output should sound glorious, to say the least. I was extremely disappointed when I heard the muddy sound.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, I don't know. The receiver says PCM stereo (though it doesn't say 96/24... nor 48/16, it just says PCM stereo, but according to the specs it should handle the 96/24 digital signals) and the soundcard sends the signal via the SPDIF output, so I guess that's the bit perfect output.

I also can't understand why I can't hear any noticeable difference when I switch from 96/24 in the C-Media Control Panel to 48/24 or 44.1/24. To my ears, they all sound the same. That is, the 96/24 bit perfect output sounds exactly the same as the 48/24 or 44.1/24. I just don't get it...

 

[MixBar]

output doesn't always give a "better sound" but it will give the original sound, encoding however will change the sound a bit.

Dolby Digital Live and DTS interactive reduce the resolution to 16Bit / 48 kHz (always) and afterwards compresses(with further losses) the stream.

 

[alg7_munif]

Dolby Digital Live and DTS interactive reduce the resolution to 16Bit / 48 kHz (always) and afterwards compresses(with further losses) the stream.

DD/DTS has more than enough bandwidth to send a stereo 16/48 sound without compression so I don't think compression is needed. X-Fi also resample to 48kHz unless it is in audio creation mode.

 

[Donnie27]

DD/DTS has more than enough bandwidth to send a stereo 16/48 sound without compression so I don't think compression is needed. X-Fi also resample to 48kHz unless it is in audio creation mode.

My receiver doesn't lie. The X-Fi also does 24bit/96KHz in Entertainment Mode. Change the Setting in the THX console and the receiver kicks in the 96KHz Stereo soon as you kick the OK button.

The 96/24 stereo pcm signal is probably the highest drm-free quality audio DVD in the market right now, right? I just trying to find the way to hear those DVDs the way they're meant to be heard...

There are Alternate 24bit/192KHz DRM tracks that are accessible. I did a screen shot of the Creative DVD Audio Player in 192KHz mode. The problem is my receiver can't go higher than 96KHz anyway. Sometimes, amplifying that X-Fi sound isn't as bad as some folks say or think it is.

 

[alg7_munif]

My receiver doesn't lie. The X-Fi also does 24bit/96KHz in Entertainment Mode. Change the Setting in the THX console and the receiver kicks in the 96KHz Stereo soon as you kick the OK button.

It resample to 48kHz for its DSP, and resample back to 96kHz for SPDIF. Remember that X-Fi's DSP is locked at 48kHz, if you don't want resampling, all effects must be turned off like in bit matched output.

 

[MetalX]

OP: Who ya got playing the Fillmore in that video?

 

[cirerita]

Change the Setting in the THX console and the receiver kicks in the 96KHz Stereo soon as you kick the OK button.

There are Alternate 24bit/192KHz DRM tracks that are accessible

how do you know your receiver is decoding the 96/24 stereo signal?? (other than the info which appears on the display). My receiver says PCM stereo, no matter whether I play 48/24 or 96/24. Is there any way to know if the receiver is actually decoding the 96/24 stereo signal?

Where can I grab those 192/24 DRM tracks? I already have a couple of drm-free DVD-A, but it's always good to try different stuff.

The Fillmore East is the infamous Neil Young & Crazy Horse electric set from 1970, issued this month as a regular CD and a DVD with the 96/24 pcm stereo track.

 

[Donnie27]

how do you know your receiver is decoding the 96/24 stereo signal?? (other than the info which appears on the display). My receiver says PCM stereo, no matter whether I play 48/24 or 96/24. Is there any way to know if the receiver is actually decoding the 96/24 stereo signal?

Where can I grab those 192/24 DRM tracks? I already have a couple of drm-free DVD-A, but it's always good to try different stuff.

The Fillmore East is the infamous Neil Young & Crazy Horse electric set from 1970, issued this month as a regular CD and a DVD with the 96/24 pcm stereo track.

The Pioneer VSX-D711 reads out right on the Front Display if you select 96KHz, it says 96KHz. When it resamples to 48KHz, kicks (You can hear a CLICK) down to DD's 48KHz or Analog DVD. I can set the selection to Auto.

The best recording and great example of 24bit/192KHz is Hotel California DVD Audio disc that have *Alternate 24bit/192KHz tracks. Honestly, all these tracks need are to be is Analog Amplified, no need to worry about what DACs or etc................... One of my Audiophile buddies said, Dang man, I didn't know that Dinky Pioneer could sound that good. It is just a damned shamed this format hasn't or didn't catch on.

 

[alg7_munif]

My logitech's receiver will show a 96-24 icon if I send a digital signal with 96khz setting in Xear3D eventhough the source file is not 96/24.

 

[Donnie27]

It resample to 48kHz for its DSP, and resample back to 96kHz for SPDIF. Remember that X-Fi's DSP is locked at 48kHz, if you don't want resampling, all effects must be turned off like in bit matched output.

For music, I have ALL of the effects turned off I use bit matched and no effects to screw stuff up most of the time. Crystalizer goes unused on my system, don't need EQ and can't stand EAX for Music playback. But thanks for pointing that out, it is important!

 

[Donnie27]

My logitech's receiver will show a 96-24 icon if I send a digital signal with 96khz setting in Xear3D eventhough the source file is not 96/24.

Yup!

 

[cirerita]

The best recording and great example of 24bit/192KHz is Hotel California DVD Audio disc that have *Alternate 24bit/192KHz tracks. Honestly, all these tracks need are to be is Analog Amplified, no need to worry about what DACs or etc

what do you mean by *Alternate??? I have 2 original DVD-A which I managed to copy to the hard-drive unprotected. Is that what you mean by "alternate"??

Hmm, so DVD-A sound better through the analogue?? I feel really tempted to buy the analogue cable. Is there any nice set -but not expensive- of analogue cables you would recommend for my settings?

by the way, I hardly ever play games, so I mostly use the soundcard to enjoy music...

 

[phide]

Cables are cables, for the most part. I don't suggest you break the bank on cables (because all the interconnects you need to use are unbalanced anyway), but you may as well grab some that look beefy and attractive.

There's a lot of shit going on around a PC that I can't even imagine. There's a great deal of potential interference, so grab something appropriate. Monster cables are fine, but so are cheap-o "premier" cable like Belkin and RadioShack stuff. Anything that looks fairly meaty is as good as any $5000 nonsense interconnects.

DD/DTS has more than enough bandwidth to send a stereo 16/48 sound without compression so I don't think compression is needed.

It's not an issue of bandwidth, but more about what the format supports. I don't believe uncompressed audio of any sort is supported with either format, though I could be wrong.

 

[alg7_munif]

I wouldn't recommend an analogue cable with that card, the card is good for digital connection but I don't think the analogue is better than a HT receiver. Donnie27 said that it is better than X-Fi so maybe worth a shot. I've also read somewhere that the card doesn't have 192/24 DACs but I'm not sure.

 

[cirerita]

I've never ever used analogue cables in my computer, so please forgive the following -dumb- question: do I need a single cable or a set of 5 cables????

edit: yep, the card doesn't seem to support 192/24. I get sound from 44.1, 48 and 96, but no sound from 192. That might explain why is cheaper than the other cards with the c-media 8788 audio chipset.

 

[phide]

The analog situation gets complicated...

Consumer sound cards use 1/8" stereo female connectors designed for 1/8" stereo male-terminated cables. Receivers obviously use unbalanced mono RCA-terminated female connectors. Essentially, you need to split the three 1/8" outputs to six mono outputs by means of three 1/8" stereo to stereo female RCA adaptors. There come in cable or "block" form. The bitch here is that it's tough to find great quality adaptors without paying out the ass, and often times the decent ones are tough to find. Then you need three pairs of stereo RCA interconnects or six mono RCA interconnects. This is assuming your receiver has six channel inputs (and that you aren't already using them).

My best advice is to track down some decent looking adaptors with gold-plated connectors, if you can. The plating doesn't really improve the connection, but it does eliminate potential corrosion. You can beef the shielding on the cabling if you wish, since the back of a PC can be a very electrically noisy area to be using analog audio cables.

If you're used to gaming with DTS or DD, you might notice an improvement in quality by using the regular analog outputs. It's a tough call.

 

[alg7_munif]

You need a set of three cables or six depending on the cable type. I really don't recommend you to buy the cables.

 

[cirerita]

the receiver has a 6ch direct input, I guess it's for the analogue connection. The only input I'm using in the receiver is the one by the Toslink cable from the soundcard. The rest of the inputs can be used -and there are A LOT.

no, I don't play games, I just want to enjoy my musical collection.

Somebody said earlier that DVD-A could sound better through the analogue connect, that's why I considered that option, but seeing as complex as it seems to buy a nice, not-too-expensive set of analogue cables, I think I'll pass.

why do you say that the analogue is no good with this card? Are you talking about the Theatron DTS or the cards with the cmedia 8878 chipset? Because if it's just this card, I think I could take it back to the store and get a better one, if there's any.

 

[alg7_munif]

I'm talking about the Theatron DTS, the card is good for digital but the analogue is lower than other CMI8788 cards. It doesn't have a 192/24 DAC. In analogue, I think the X-Meridian is the best CMI-8788 card(or could be Razer but I doubt it).

 

[Donnie27]

the receiver has a 6ch direct input, I guess it's for the analogue connection. The only input I'm using in the receiver is the one by the Toslink cable from the soundcard. The rest of the inputs can be used -and there are A LOT.

no, I don't play games, I just want to enjoy my musical collection.

Somebody said earlier that DVD-A could sound better through the analogue connect, that's why I considered that option, but seeing as complex as it seems to buy a nice, not-too-expensive set of analogue cables, I think I'll pass.

why do you say that the analogue is no good with this card? Are you talking about the Theatron DTS or the cards with the cmedia 8878 chipset? Because if it's just this card, I think I could take it back to the store and get a better one, if there's any.

You need 3 of these.

These need to be heavy duty if your receiver is more than 3 ft. away from the computer, some say 6 ft and shielded is the Max. Volume will be lowered but the sound for Games are killer. Once you go this route, you'll end up wanting bigger and better and computer speakers will never sound right afterwards. Sound for DVD-A will truely Kick ASS! All DVD and Most DTS diiscs have Second and some times 3 format tracks on the discs. Commonly there CD-A 44.1, DTS 48bit or 96bit and on DVD-A 96 and 192KHz Stereo Tracks. They have to be heard to be believed.