The Year Windows Died at Home and Nobody Cared

blackmomba

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Joli OS stopped development like 10 years ago, was that the last time you've looked at Linux on a desktop?
 

Axman

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Joli OS stopped development like 10 years ago, was that the last time you've looked at Linux on a desktop?

I dual-boot on my desktop right now. I was using it as an example of what happens when you try to produce a consumer-oriented flavor of Linux. Not only did Joli crash and burn, it's successor did, too. Mint has a cult following and Pop has System76 supporting it, and that pretty much encompasses the entire field of desktop driven development on Linux.

Microsoft's concern for the desktop experience is orders of magnitude greater than what the entire Linux community can muster. And that's saying something because I did just bash Windows 10 for having messed up the most basic interfaces in an earlier post.
 

nilepez

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I don't remember anyone complaining about the menu for Windows 7, and it was similar enough to Vista and XP's menus that the change was pretty minimal overall.
However, the menu in Windows 8/8.1, or lack-there-of, was a major issue and made that OS more difficult to use than it needed to be; every complaint about that OS was just as justified as were the complaints about Vista and ME.

Windows 10, and its contemporary Server versions, fixed all of that.


Was going to post this exact thing.
The article from 2018, especially in 2021, could not be more dated and incorrect.
OMG, the whining about the win 95 menu going away was unending. Oh who it was going to require SO MUCH TRAINING.
 

nilepez

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LOL. And people hated XP because it looked gamish, and before that they hated '95 because they missed Program Manager. I'll leave Me out of this except to say that it was mainly OEMs stuffing PCs with bloatware that gave Me it's not-really-deserved bad reputation. (Seriously. I was in the beta for both 95 and Me, and I never had a problem with any beta build of Me. Then I bought a HP desktop and it ran like garbage. For the first six months, I couldn't even view HTTPS sites at all, the page would never load. One day I got out my complimentary copy of Me and did a fresh install of Windows and guess what? WIthout all the HP-supplied bloatware, all my problems went away.)
I didn't have any more problems with ME than any other 9x OS, if what you're writing is true, then it makes sense, since i never owned a prebuilt Win9x PC.
 

nilepez

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Eh, kids these days. I've been complaining about the start menu since 1995. The Win 10 menu fixed some of the problems, but still I think the desktop icon based menu of Win 3.x was more intuitive. Just look at how iOS and Android menus are! Basically what Win 3.x had, just some refinement of the concept.
Problem is if it's not on the first screen on IOS, I've got to search anyway. Seems like the same way windows vista to present has worked. You can have a desktop full of icons. You can have a task bar with pinned programs and if all else fails, you can just search using the start menu. There are issues with searching for some vertical programs, but aside from that (and I blame the authors of the programs, not MS for those fuckups) and (as a rule) no touch screen monitor, you can use them both in similar ways.

That said, I rarely use desktop icons. It's mostly just crap that I should probably delete or move elsewhere. Things that I use regularly are on my taskbar. That said, until they had a searchable start menu, the windows start menu's always required lots of editing and reorganizing, but starting around vista (not sure if it was like that at launch), you could just search and the organization didn't matter...though I didn't know that until 2008 or even 2009, which made using it a PITA.
 

cybereality

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I hide all desktop icons, and I never use the start menu (haven't since Vista). I just type in the search box and press enter.

There are like 100 or more folders in the start menu, it would take too much time to look through, the search works great.

And my common apps like Chrome and Photoshop or whatever are on the task bar. Honestly it works fine.
 

nilepez

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As was WinNT, which became Win2K, which became WinXP.
True, but even when i used ubuntu (which admittedly was almost 10 years ago), it still wasn't great for desktop use, but it was great for backend *nix coding. It's probably better now, but I'm not going to spend countless hours getting up to speed on a *nix build. It's not worth the effort, because there's no benefit. I've had Linux crash and I've had Windows Crash. Both are rare.
 

Axman

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As was WinNT, which became Win2K, which became WinXP.

But they all had workstation editions, and XP was strictly for desktop. Microsoft also developed a lot of gaming-centric stuff for XP and on, which can't be said for Linux. The closest thing Linux has is creative ways to run Windows software, and even then, the bulk of that is third-party.

What I'm trying to point out is that the money spent on developing Linux doesn't really go into it to develop a consumer product. Microsoft's interest in developing Windows as a consumer product ranks much higher than Linux's.
 

ManofGod

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If you never used windows before windows 8/10, i can see why you would think the user interface is good. Its "modern" and resembles smartphone interfaces. My wife and kids like it.
But as someone who has been using pc's from the DOS days, the win 8/10 ui is change for sake of change. It offers no functional improvements, it just changes stuff.
Why are windows borderless? Why is the active/ inactive title bars the same color? Why has the control panel been scrambled like a box of puzzle pieces?

Up until win 7, you could customize the ui to make it work in the way you were comfortable with. There is no good reason why they are continuing to expunge the older ui.

One of my annoyances with the new UI paradigm is definitely needing to type something in to find it, as I still cannot navigate directly to what I'm looking for as the way things are clustered make no sense to me. It is very annoying that things like the sound control panel are hidden in comparatively tiny text in the new settings menu. Change for the sake of change is most definitely a problem in many product sectors these days, especially in UI design where form has trumped function.

Welp, you have only one of two choices, except it or move over to Linux, if you want to keep using a PC. Otherwise, it is what it is and does not really matter in the big scheme of things. Also, I have always used either WinKey - R to run things or Winkey and type whatever I want. Clicking through a bunch of menus was never very quick or intuitive. In fact, I used button bars on my Amiga with AmigaOS 2.04 and also with Windows 95.
 

ManofGod

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I dual-boot on my desktop right now. I was using it as an example of what happens when you try to produce a consumer-oriented flavor of Linux. Not only did Joli crash and burn, it's successor did, too. Mint has a cult following and Pop has System76 supporting it, and that pretty much encompasses the entire field of desktop driven development on Linux.

Microsoft's concern for the desktop experience is orders of magnitude greater than what the entire Linux community can muster. And that's saying something because I did just bash Windows 10 for having messed up the most basic interfaces in an earlier post.
And if that is your entire perspective on the Linux Desktop, then I can understand why you would not use it as a daily driver. I found that the Linux Desktop is far more private, secure and useful than Windows 10 has ever been but, I am an IT professional and am an expert on that as well.
 

cybereality

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Privacy is basically gone for good.

Even with a crazy setup: Linux, VPN, No Script, Ad Block, Pi-hole, etc. the big companies (and the government too) are seeing everything.

Yeah Google knows I'm looking at hentai, honestly, I don't care anymore.
 

Axman

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Yeah Google knows I'm looking at hentai, honestly, I don't care anymore.

Lately I've been wondering if Apple isn't onto something, but I dislike the OS -- different in order to be different and not better -- and I wonder how much their privacy first stance is just marketing.

Seems like they're trying to be the safest of all evils. Because you can be damn sure governments and big tech has a direct hand in developing Linux for their own reasons.
 

defaultluser

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LOL.

Clickbait, or yet another malfunctioning crystal ball.
That's all Megalith ever posted anyway, so it's no wonder pepple keep bumping his click bait thread two yearws after he left the fucking forums.

You people are wasting your time arguing over something that will never be settled, mostly because hardcore Linux control freaks like Boonie never want Linux to become as easy to use as Windows. They would rather have a dozen different incompatible package manager formats, as well as TWICE as many maintained X Windows managers, both with their own set of libraries required to make them work.

Desktop Linux is all about repeating thew same work dozen of times, and convincing themselves that they will get thing right the next time! Microsoft has only really gutted Windows UI TWICE (3.1 -> 95, and7 -> 8) and it's a much better user experience for it (mostly undone with 10). All that user tracking also includes automated bug reporting, so it's not without it's benefits.

The painful changes made to Vista's user-mode drivers, combined with the tracking introduced in Windows 7 pl;us integrated virus scanner in 8 makes Windows 8+ the most stable it's ever been.
 
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ManofGod

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Privacy is basically gone for good.

Even with a crazy setup: Linux, VPN, No Script, Ad Block, Pi-hole, etc. the big companies (and the government too) are seeing everything.

Yeah Google knows I'm looking at hentai, honestly, I don't care anymore.

I have already spoken of local privacy repeatedly so no, privacy is not gone for good. Also, I have already eliminated all my social media account and use NO cloud storage services anymore. Windows 10, on the other hand, is objectively no privacy oriented and therefore, for my personal computer only, I have chosen to use it only for gaming and nothing else.

And before you speak of phones, I have already pruned my phone down as well, I do not use sign into any google services on it and do not use Android Auto. Privacy is far more important to me than it was ever in the past for objective and valid reasons. It is your choice if you do not want to do so but for me, I have and it is what it is.
 

cybereality

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I understand, and I don't necessarily disagree. I just think it's a losing battle.

While you can definitely secure your own computer, and do things to make it harder to track (like blockers, VPN, etc.), as soon as you want to do something on the web (even this forum), you have to have an account (that is linked to your email, IP address, shadow profiles, etc.) exposing yourself.

What if you want to order a physical item online, say from Amazon. Even with VPN and everything, Amazon still knows your real name and address (to send you the item) so your cover is blown. And they will share what you buy with Google or whoever.

Want to order food delivery from Yelp, same thing. Want to call a Lyft? Well know they know exactly where you are on GPS. Need cloud storage for backups, or source control for work, well now your data is on the internet and can be linked back to you or hacked.

I mean, if you want to burn your phone and computer, and then live out in the woods eating snakes. Well you do you. It's just a massive inconvenience with little gain for most people.
 

ManofGod

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I understand, and I don't necessarily disagree. I just think it's a losing battle.

While you can definitely secure your own computer, and do things to make it harder to track (like blockers, VPN, etc.), as soon as you want to do something on the web (even this forum), you have to have an account (that is linked to your email, IP address, shadow profiles, etc.) exposing yourself.

What if you want to order a physical item online, say from Amazon. Even with VPN and everything, Amazon still knows your real name and address (to send you the item) so your cover is blown. And they will share what you buy with Google or whoever.

Want to order food delivery from Yelp, same thing. Want to call a Lyft? Well know they know exactly where you are on GPS. Need cloud storage for backups, or source control for work, well now your data is on the internet and can be linked back to you or hacked.

I mean, if you want to burn your phone and computer, and then live out in the woods eating snakes. Well you do you. It's just a massive inconvenience with little gain for most people.

Actually, there is a balance between convenience and privacy. And what most people do, I could not care less. I objectively and factually do what I can for me to remain private and secure as possible and what others do is on them. And I mean, I literally do not use cloud storage, whatsoever, for my personal stuff.

Heck, I have an incredible peace of mind once I applied the Grey Rock theory, practice stoicism and ghosted society. Doing what I can do insure my own privacy, especially locally, is worth it and takes very little effort. Oh, and only a "foolish person" would use their phone for important things like banking and such.
 

auntjemima

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Actually, there is a balance between convenience and privacy. And what most people do, I could not care less. I objectively and factually do what I can for me to remain private and secure as possible and what others do is on them. And I mean, I literally do not use cloud storage, whatsoever, for my personal stuff.

Heck, I have an incredible peace of mind once I applied the Grey Rock theory, practice stoicism and ghosted society. Doing what I can do insure my own privacy, especially locally, is worth it and takes very little effort. Oh, and only a "foolish person" would use their phone for important things like banking and such.
I don't really get the online storage thing either. "Once it's on the internet" and all that.

The rest? Meh. I have more important things to worry about these days. If Microsoft wants to sell my browsing habits, so be it. I browse 3 sites and none of them are social media.
 

Lakados

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I don't really get the online storage thing either. "Once it's on the internet" and all that.

The rest? Meh. I have more important things to worry about these days. If Microsoft wants to sell my browsing habits, so be it. I browse 3 sites and none of them are social media.
And all of them could teach them a trick or 2...
 

Mazzspeed

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Any OS would have poor performance on such a system - that is hardly exclusive to Windows 10 on such hardware.
Computers like that aren't really sold any more unless either sold used or absolute bottom-end, aka you get what you pay for.

Most computers with such hardware were sold in the mid to late 2010s as then-budget systems, and without hardware upgrades have become quickly obsolete, regardless of the OS.
There are many legitimate issues with Windows 10, as posted throughout this thread, but this is not one of them.

The problem is:

Only Windows 10 suffers.

My Pi400 running Twister OS with 4GB of ram off a cheap SD card is a vast magnitude faster than Windows 10 running off a mechanical HDD with 4GB of ram on a modern Intel Pentium (ie: Modern Celeron). Furthermore, these aren't systems sold last decade, these are systems being sold now.
 

Red Falcon

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The problem is:

Only Windows 10 suffers.

My Pi400 running Twister OS with 4GB of ram off a cheap SD card is a vast magnitude faster than Windows 10 running off a mechanical HDD with 4GB of ram on a modern Intel Pentium (ie: Modern Celeron). Furthermore, these aren't systems sold last decade, these are systems being sold now.
It isn't that your Pi400 is more powerful, it's just that spinning rust isn't enough to run a modern desktop OS; SD cards destroy HDDs in all but sequential performance.
As I said, absolute bottom-end systems are still sold that way, and again as I said, you get what you pay for.

4GB RAM is enough for light-weight computing and very light web browsing with Windows 10 (assuming bloatware has been trimmed), and is far less of an issue than the disk is.
Even the most powerful HEDT solution available will choke if it's OS only running on a HDD or SSHD, regardless of RPM.

Not sure what point you are trying to make with this, as this isn't exclusively a Windows 10 issue.
 

Mazzspeed

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It isn't that your Pi400 is more powerful, it's just that spinning rust isn't enough to run a modern desktop OS; SD cards destroy HDDs in all but sequential performance.
As I said, absolute bottom-end systems are still sold that way, and again as I said, you get what you pay for.

4GB RAM is enough for light-weight computing and very light web browsing with Windows 10 (assuming bloatware has been trimmed), and is far less of an issue than the disk is.
Even the most powerful HEDT solution available will choke if it's OS only running on a HDD or SSHD, regardless of RPM.

Not sure what point you are trying to make with this, as this isn't exclusively a Windows 10 issue.
Of course it's a modern OS, a bloated modern OS holding onto a legacy that needs to die (NT/NTFS). I never stated my Pi was more powerful, my point was in fact the opposite.

Linux is also a modern OS - That runs well off an SD card, or mechanical HDD, with 4GB of ram, using nothing more than an average quad core ARM processor, with an updating system that doesn't require multiple reboots with notable (sometimes massive in the case of the machines being discussed) increases in boot times while updating.

It's the bloat and the NT kernel/NTFS file system, resulting in the speed issues, combined with the archaic updating system and the unbelievably massive infection issues under Windows, as well as the underhanded lock in tactics by Microsoft themselves that are pushing people to mobile systems. Yes, it's well known that Google don't exactly respect privacy, but Microsoft's forceful approach to their own products as well as the never ending agenda to get everyone on Microsoft accounts when the long standing belief was that Windows = Freedom is turning people off the platform. Yes, we all know Google have a similar approach regarding Gmail accounts under Android - But the platform was designed from the onset as one that didn't respect true freedom, so people know no better and lap it up.

I'm not in any way trying to claim everyone should use Linux, use whatever you want. I'm just claiming that in my business, I see people tiring of Windows 10 due to the reasons mentioned, and I see why mobile devices have quickly become so popular. The PC's I've mentioned are such garbage under Windows 10 that they should be illegal to sell as they cannot perform the tasks they're marketed towards, even for the most simplistic users - However, install Linux and the devices are quite snappy.

What's more, I don't think Microsoft care anymore, as they now make the bulk of their money in the cloud - Hence the push. If Edge is basically Chromium (which it is), you have to ask yourself - Why do Microsoft want me using it so badly when I can just use Chromium?

This is, exclusively, a Windows 10 issue.
 
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Wat

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Didn't windows release a version that dumped all the legacy stuff?

How did that go?

Any modern hardware is fast enough to make windows run well. People who use their computers to create need the legacy stuff. Those that only consume dont.

Maybe thats how Microsoft should segment... pro and home are just not cool enough.
 

RanceJustice

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I am concerned about a movement towards proprietary, consumption only devices that you don't really have control over. Likewise, not just subscription access (which can be done well - the option to pay monthly for access to expensive software bundles for instance as opposed to lump sums makes sense for many individual users - provided that software is available to download, run on local machines of the subscriber's choosing etc) but also a focus on everything being "cloud based" - you're just connecting to someone else's machine and the amount of access or control you have is extremely limited. While I'd love it if Microsoft put less emphasis on only supporting a particular Windows centric or otherwise locked down way of doing things, I'm more concerned that they'll take the wrong lesson and instead focus on getting people basically connected not just to subscriptions but cloud and service based software as their primary goal. This, along with their significant amount of telemetry, advertising," apps" and the Windows Store using a completely different packaging platform, the whole UI rearrangement, and pretty much every concerning trope from the "surveillance capitalism for the mobile-era" playbook.

As far as alternatives, while the "year of the Linux desktop" has become a meme mostly among aficionados of the OS, it is worth noting that there has been accelerating progress in the quality and polish of the Linux experience even with things like gaming. Thanks to Valve leading the way with Steam, developing Proton, and contributing to everything from DXVK / D9VK to GPU driver packages, gaming on Linux is thriving. Titles with native Linux support are being slowly but steadily increased and even playing Windows games has thanks to Steam / Proton / WINE has come to a level of ease that many of them offer a parity experience as on Windows and requires minimal tweaking. If you're able to do so I suggest looking into Linux as an alternative as its open source and privacy respecting ethos is preferable in many ways, as well as being a technically competent system. Yes there are some things that are more complex but really if you're using a good desktop distro that is often minimized.

If Windows is declining I'd much rather have the remaining PC users choosing Linux and seeking out libre software when possible as opposed to everyone on a cloud based consumption only device with everything meaningful streamed and your local hardware being little more than a thinclient.
 

Mazzspeed

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Any modern hardware is fast enough to make windows run well. People who use their computers to create need the legacy stuff. Those that only consume dont.
As stated. Intel Pentium machines equipped with mechanical HDD's and 4GB of ram are still being sold and are surprisingly popular as people believe (pre purchace) that's all they need to surf the internet, check emails and write a document - Meaning these are modern hardware.

The reality is, as stated, such machines cannot do such tasks without a mass of HDD thrashing under Windows 10, making such devices virtually useless. Run Linux on the same machine and it's quite snappy - Hell, run Windows 7 on the same machine and it's quite snappy.
 

Ididar

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If you never used windows before windows 8/10, i can see why you would think the user interface is good. Its "modern" and resembles smartphone interfaces. My wife and kids like it.
But as someone who has been using pc's from the DOS days, the win 8/10 ui is change for sake of change. It offers no functional improvements, it just changes stuff.
Why are windows borderless? Why is the active/ inactive title bars the same color? Why has the control panel been scrambled like a box of puzzle pieces?

Up until win 7, you could customize the ui to make it work in the way you were comfortable with. There is no good reason why they are continuing to expunge the older ui.
Used it since DOS and disagree with all your points except the control panel / settings. That's a hot mess. But, the rest of the UI? I get along with it fine especially since most of my computer use at home these days is either sitting on a couch with a gaming PC hooked up to a TV ... or using a Surface Pro. At work I hardly ever look at the start menu as the windows are open for weeks at a time.
 

Mazzspeed

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Used it since DOS and disagree with all your points except the control panel / settings. That's a hot mess. But, the rest of the UI? I get along with it fine especially since most of my computer use at home these days is either sitting on a couch with a gaming PC hooked up to a TV ... or using a Surface Pro. At work I hardly ever look at the start menu as the windows are open for weeks at a time.
The rest of the UI is a fat fingered mess making extremly poor use of screen real estate on a desktop machine. In short, it's total crap.
 

nilepez

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Yet despite Debbies insistence, it was terrible and unlearnable, she figured it all out in a day.
It's also pretty easy to find stuff on the ribbon and when I can't, a quick search always provides the answer...and if I used office more than I do, I'd remember the things I forget, but I had the same issues in 2003. That said, I seem to recall that 2010+ was better than 2007.
 

cybereality

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The new Office 365 UI is really bad. Like you have to go to a complete other screen just to Save a file, and 2 screens if you want to Save As.

Yeah, it looks nice from a design standpoint, but the user experience is not great. Maybe it's good for people that don't know how to use a computer.
 

Mazzspeed

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The new Office 365 UI is really bad. Like you have to go to a complete other screen just to Save a file, and 2 screens if you want to Save As.

Yeah, it looks nice from a design standpoint, but the user experience is not great. Maybe it's good for people that don't know how to use a computer.
Now that you mention it, I agree, it's really bad how you have to go into a completely different fat fingered section just to save a file or print. What makes it worse is how OneDrive is forced onto the user by default.
 

nilepez

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As stated. Intel Pentium machines equipped with mechanical HDD's and 4GB of ram are still being sold and are surprisingly popular as people believe (pre purchace) that's all they need to surf the internet, check emails and write a document - Meaning these are modern hardware.

The reality is, as stated, such machines cannot do such tasks without a mass of HDD thrashing under Windows 10, making such devices virtually useless. Run Linux on the same machine and it's quite snappy - Hell, run Windows 7 on the same machine and it's quite snappy.
4GB on 7 was awful. We did that at work and eventually they coughed up the money for more ram, because it was slowing everyone down. My persona PC either had 8 or 16gb and TBH, I think at one point I added another 4GB of my own ram because even 8 wasn't enough.
The last time I ran on 4GB on my own rig was sometime in 2007 and if I moved to linux, I wouldn't run it with 4GB. Hell, i'd probably use 32gb, because my budget for ram in a PC is always about 200 dollars (give or take 50).
The new Office 365 UI is really bad. Like you have to go to a complete other screen just to Save a file, and 2 screens if you want to Save As.

Yeah, it looks nice from a design standpoint, but the user experience is not great. Maybe it's good for people that don't know how to use a computer.
Must be different than regular Office, because safe is CTRL S. Save as does require you click on the file tab and save as, but that's literally what I did in office 2003 and TBH I rarely use save as in Excel or Word.

Now that you mention it, I agree, it's really bad how you have to go into a completely different fat fingered section just to save a file or print. What makes it worse is how OneDrive is forced onto the user by default.

CTRL P enter = print
 

Mazzspeed

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4GB on 7 was awful. We did that at work and eventually they coughed up the money for more ram, because it was slowing everyone down. My persona PC either had 8 or 16gb and TBH, I think at one point I added another 4GB of my own ram because even 8 wasn't enough.
The last time I ran on 4GB on my own rig was sometime in 2007 and if I moved to linux, I wouldn't run it with 4GB. Hell, i'd probably use 32gb, because my budget for ram in a PC is always about 200 dollars (give or take 50).
Windows 7 was a metric tonne faster on 4GB of ram and a mechanical HDD than Windows 10, you can't argue that it wasn't. I run Linux on a Pi400 with 4GB of ram as do many other people, it runs great! In fact it's a totally recommended device for most of your daily tasks.

The average person could get by on something like a Pi400 just fine.
 

Axman

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Yeah, it looks nice from a design standpoint, but the user experience is not great. Maybe it's good for people that don't know how to use a computer.

I've seen similar trends with iOS and a number of Linux programs. It's an odd trend, and I'm not sure what the reasoning is, other then change for its own sake.
 

Jandor

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Everything kind of works under Tor. Even if you're tracked once on Tor, you may not be followed once you restart Tor. If you use Tor + VPN it becomes very hard to be tracked. You can still create some fake emails and get connexions on some websites asking for emails. You can even buy burn phones in some countries where they don't link a temporary number with your identity and you can use that for first connexions (and you can buy those phones with cash money). Also you can buy SIP numbers with mobile features and use fake identity returns (some providers will permit you that) and you can chose your country where you estblish the number. So many ways to beat Google and other trackers. Non need for money or very little.
 

pendragon1

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Perhaps Microsoft should put that in the title bar? As about 90% of all Windows users (fairly average Joe's) have no idea that exists! All they see is the GUI and the GUI is poor from a desktop screen real estate perspective.
1617321788337.png

there are the key combos next to almost every menu option

Everything kind of works under Tor. Even if you're tracked once on Tor, you may not be followed once you restart Tor. If you use Tor + VPN it becomes very hard to be tracked. You can still create some fake emails and get connexions on some websites asking for emails. You can even buy burn phones in some countries where they don't link a temporary number with your identity and you can use that for first connexions (and you can buy those phones with cash money). Also you can buy SIP numbers with mobile features and use fake identity returns (some providers will permit you that) and you can chose your country where you estblish the number. So many ways to beat Google and other trackers. Non need for money or very little.
1617321810877.png
 

Jandor

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View attachment 344329
there are the key combos next to almost every menu option


View attachment 344330
Yeah, well, because of the Covid situation, mother and father (84 and 86) got their hands dirty into computers. Now they surf like champs safely with Tor when needed and use different profiles on Firefox to avoid unnecessary tracking.
And about the undereducated oldies, I kind of don't care. Their problem. As long as they don't cost me any penny.
 
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