The web - 10 years old.. still looks like a baby

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osalcido

[H]ard|Gawd
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Not a specific question but..

Why is it that we can still do web browsing on a computer thats 10 years old? Why isnt flash-style webdesign the norm by now?

I remember surfing the web in 1999 and everything looked almost exactly the same as it does today... minus a few flash advertisements here and there

When will the interface revolution come?
 
The web is a lot older than 10 years old ;) I remember using distributed BBS's in 1990 - and yes, things were text based then as well. (well, there were apps like RipTerm that came along to try to spice things up a bit...)

Here's an '02 article from wired.com
Some historians claim the Internet was born in 1961, when Dr. Leonard Kleinrock first published a paper on packet-switching technology at MIT.

Others cite 1969, when the Department of Defense commissioned the Advanced Research Projects Agency Network, known as ARPANET, to research a communication and command network that could withstand a nuclear attack.

The 1970s boast a slew of what could be pegged essential Internet milestones, including the advent of e-mail and the splintering off of ARPANET from military experiment to public resource.

But perhaps the most famous of the lot is the acclaimed Jan. 1, 1983, switch from Network Control Protocol to Transmission Control Protocol and Internet Protocol.
Click to expand...

Anyway... look at some of the original purposess of the Internet - easy, standardized information sharing. Text / hyperlinks is a great way of serving this purpose.

Lets say that in 8 years everyone has 3D monitors. Text will still be easy to display on this holo-monitors. Something like vector-based Flash? Maybe not so much...

Text is a nice common denominator....
 
One of the main reasons Flash sites aren't the norm these days is that it's a proprietary technology, and as such requires expensive software (eg Flash itself) to build stuff in it. HTML is an open standard, which means anybody can use any and all features of it pretty much without restriction.

However, Flash is a binary format, which makes it very difficult to write spiders etc to crawl it...not to mention the fact that most Flash developers seem to prefer stuffing a lot of their text into images to pretty it up, which effectively stops search engines from doing their jobs. What would you rather have - a pretty interface on all your favourite sites, or Google et al so that you could actually find them in the first place?

Finally, there's also the problem of accessibility - for all the same reasons that Flash objects are invisible to search engines, they don't work for screen readers either.

This is, of course, concentrating on Flash objects, but anything built in Silverlight would suffer from the same problems. The only way to avoid them is to split the pretty binary objects out into text information and graphical information, thus allowing non-binary applications to "read" them.....but, of course, that's what we've got already with HTML, Javascript and image files ;)
 
The same reason why books have not gone out of style. It doesn't matter how flashy your media is, what matters is what is actually contained within. Would this post be any more or less relevant if it were animated in Flash?
 
Neurofreeze said:
The same reason why books have not gone out of style. It doesn't matter how flashy your media is, what matters is what is actually contained within. Would this post be any more or less relevant if it were animated in Flash?
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ok you guys are missing the point. I know I said flash because other than silverlight, theres nothing that can achieve the interactivity of flash. but if flash had gotten a major part of the market years ago we all know thered be several other options, open source and what not.

As for the quote about books.... well..... thats debatable. of the past 5 books i've checked out from the library..four were e-books. do you really think its better to skim thru 20 index pages of a thousand page book to get information rather than have a search function?
Anyway again this is not the point. obviously writing is as old as man and will continue to be required. Does not mean we have to limit ourselves to flat 2-d interfaces and no special effects with our interactivity.

I think the root of the problem is , as someone said, people have the mentality that if it aint broke it shouldnt be fixed. Well , thats a backwards 18th century mindset... the computer should be at the forefront of change, not hindering it.
Just my 2 cents
 
Hurdler said:
Because a large portion of people find flash based websites incredibly irritating.
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can I give another amen?

Unless specifically looking for interactive multimedia (music, videos, games, etc..), most people who visit the web are looking for information, and they want it as quickly as possible. Flash sites tend to place too many impediments in the way of getting to your information.. This really hit home when I realized that most Flash sites were all fluff and very little actual content. Also, it got really tiring to have to re-learn some fancy navigation technique every time I went to a new Flash site (are the nav buttons going to be hidden? will content scroll when I hover over an arrow, or do I have to click on the arrow, or do they use some completely esoteric navigation method?). Not to mention many Flash sites obsession with intro pages (yes, they might be cool the first time I visit, but they get very annoying after the third visit).

Impediments... bad. Think how you use the web yourself, would you rather watch eye candy or find the relevant info you need?

Think of it this way, What if Google was done in Flash, complete with a useless intro page and search results hidden behind fancy buttons?
 
Hurdler said:
Because a large portion of people find flash based websites incredibly irritating.
Click to expand...

Which flash sites? I have yet to see a non-personal webpage that is built on flash. What major websites employ flash at all?

Microsoft is at the forefront of the change now that they are pushing wpf with vista thru silverlight. The same way they took the market with Windows 9x's evolutionary interface when every other linux/mac zealot was sure that people wanted command-lines with their operating system, they can take the market again.

I guess its easy to see why Microsoft is 90+% of the operating system market now... they give people what they want while everyone else tells them what they want
 
Once simple thing you can't do with a flash sites is copy and paste.
 
maw said:
Think of it this way, What if Google was done in Flash, complete with a useless intro page and search results hidden behind fancy buttons?
Click to expand...

Very close minded of you .... I cant believe how many people here just assume that flash would be used in an utterly ridiculous way such as "intro page"

Take a look at nostalgia compared to flickr's search function to know what I am talking about. An interactive, dynamic interface compared to a static, boring layout of thumbnails.

People assume way too much..
 
Met-AL said:
Once simple thing you can't do with a flash sites is copy and paste.
Click to expand...

http://www.dreamincode.net/code/snippet152.htm

and again. i said flash in the beginning but I mean any flash-type plugin such as silverlight which would certainly have these simple functions.
Anyway, pretty obvious that most of the 'developers' here simpy do not know what interactive web design is capable of or that they dont even know what it really means.

So look at some of these examples and enjoy writing your little myspace page in notepad:
http://www.yeejie.com/silverlight_magazine/
http://blogs.msdn.com/synergist/arc...-in-picture-screencasts-with-silverlight.aspx
http://www.nikhilk.net/Prototypes/PhotoCarousel/
http://www.aglux.com.my/gallery.aspx
 
osalcido said:
Very close minded of you .... I cant believe how many people here just assume that flash would be used in an utterly ridiculous way such as "intro page"

Take a look at nostalgia compared to flickr's search function to know what I am talking about. An interactive, dynamic interface compared to a static, boring layout of thumbnails.

People assume way too much..
Click to expand...

erm.. that's why i said:

"Unless specifically looking for interactive multimedia (music, videos, games, etc..), most people who visit the web are looking for information, and they want it as quickly as possible."..........

maybe I should clarify. There's nothing wrong with Flash when used appropriately. I thoroughly enjoy my Flash game fixes every weekend, and use Flickr quite often. What I'm saying though, is that sites use Flash for it's own sake tend to be more annoying than helpful to their visitors. There is really no excuse to dump all your content into a Flash file, especially when none of it is multimedia. Right tool for the right job, as they say.
 
osalcido said:
Which flash sites? I have yet to see a non-personal webpage that is built on flash. What major websites employ flash at all?

Microsoft is at the forefront of the change now that they are pushing wpf with vista thru silverlight. The same way they took the market with Windows 9x's evolutionary interface when every other linux/mac zealot was sure that people wanted command-lines with their operating system, they can take the market again.

I guess its easy to see why Microsoft is 90+% of the operating system market now... they give people what they want while everyone else tells them what they want
Click to expand...

If you use Firefox install Flashblock, and you'll find out how many sites use flash, it's a lot. I don't think flash is used a lot on corporate websites, since it takes longer to load, and really doesn't add anything. Sure it looks prettier, but at a performance hit that many don't want to deal with.
 
what have you developed and what tools do you use to develop? I'm just wondering because I can think of a few ways that text based information can be displayed differently in silverlight than html. you cannot tell me that it is not harder to get information out of a static webpage than a fully interactive one. (that was for maw)

for hurdler: how many people do you know have computers that cant handle flash?
 
osalcido said:
So look at some of these examples and enjoy writing your little myspace page in notepad:
http://www.yeejie.com/silverlight_magazine/
http://blogs.msdn.com/synergist/arc...-in-picture-screencasts-with-silverlight.aspx
http://www.nikhilk.net/Prototypes/PhotoCarousel/
http://www.aglux.com.my/gallery.aspx
Click to expand...

Not one thing about those sites makes them better than a HTML site. It's all opinion, and my own opinion is that I don't like the swirling thumbnails, I would rather have the "boring" listing instead. I think you will find the mass majority would agree. People just want to just "get it done" most of the time, and fancy just gets in the way.
 
osalcido said:
you cannot tell me that it is not harder to get information out of a static webpage than a fully interactive one. (that was for maw)
Click to expand...

actually, yes I can. When navigation is consistent with expected standards, when text is legible and scrolling up and down through the content is just a matter of turning my mouse wheel instead of hovering over an arrow, when I don't have annoying animation running all over the screen trying to get my attention, when I don't have to remember to turn the volume down because I'll probably hate your taste in background music, when I don't have to install the latest version of the Flash (or Silverlight) plug-in before I can even start viewing your cutting-edge web page, when I can actually FIND your page using a search engine.. i believe I can confidently state that I'd take a static HTML page any day over a Flash driven one..
 
:rolleyes:
maw said:
actually, yes I can. When navigation is consistent with expected standards, when text is legible and scrolling up and down through the content is just a matter of turning my mouse wheel instead of hovering over an arrow, when I don't have annoying animation running all over the screen trying to get my attention, when I don't have to remember to turn the volume down because I'll probably hate your taste in background music, when I don't have to install the latest version of the Flash (or Silverlight) plug-in before I can even start viewing your cutting-edge web page, when I can actually FIND your page using a search engine.. i believe I can confidently state that I'd take a static HTML page any day over a Flash driven one..
Click to expand...


More and more assumptions.. come back when you have substance
 
osalcido said:
what have you developed and what tools do you use to develop? I'm just wondering because I can think of a few ways that text based information can be displayed differently in silverlight than html. you cannot tell me that it is not harder to get information out of a static webpage than a fully interactive one. (that was for maw)

for hurdler: how many people do you know have computers that cant handle flash?
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Well, take a look in the Help and Feedback forum on this board. You'll find multiple threads about people having problems with the flash animations that newegg and other companies use.
 
Hurdler said:
Well, take a look in the Help and Feedback forum on this board. You'll find multiple threads about people having problems with the flash animations that newegg and other companies use.
Click to expand...

true it would be a challenge to develop more complex interfaces and there will be bugs along the way... but the solution is not to run from it and ignore it.

An honest question here, do you want to see the web 10 years from now look the same as it does today?
 
Well the Web 2.0 revolution happened/is happening which brings the whole new finished and polished look to many sites.

There is a big difference from what the web looked like years ago, it has been slowly evolving over the years. Take a look at some of the crude HTML and GIF pages out there and you will know what I mean (many still exist all though most are now created by amateurs or left overs, not done by professionals)
 
Met-AL said:
Yep.
Click to expand...

Will never happen though, as the web is ever evolving. The internet does not look the same today as it did yesterday or the day before or last year, etc.

Sites are always putting out new looks/versions and refreshes to keep with the times and not look ole fashion (and you can tell which ones are ole fashion as they start to stick out as the others evolve).
 
It's simple:

Content is king.

And no matter what you do, basic text is still going to be the preferred method of getting your point or information across for many, many years to come. Stupid Flash videos are useful up to a point, but most people want "hard copy" meaning straight text of the real scoop than a damned video.
 
it sounds to me like no amount of argument or explanation is going to change your viewpoint. I suggest you follow through and do all your future web projects using Flash/Silverlight and open the eyes of the rest of world who weren't visionary enough to imagine the advantages of animated content. Start off big, sell your concept to banks and financial institutions, huge government agencies, news outlets, and online retailers..don't be discouraged when they laugh in your face, after all, what do they know about their cutomers and the Internet anyway?
 
i don't understand how one can look at what the internet and web is today, look at what it was 10+ years ago and say we haven't made it all that far.

i think we've come a DAMN long way, and new innovations come yearly. For Pete's (and Pete's Brother's) sake, how many live conferencing tools were available for the average joe to use at his company 15 years ago? how many websites could dynamically alter their content 15 years ago?

etcetera.

necessity is the mother of all invention, and apparently we don't need what you are suggesting just yet.
 
osalcido said:
for hurdler: how many people do you know have computers that cant handle flash?
Click to expand...


Lots - well over 100 that I've personally met, in fact. They're all blind or partially sighted.

However, I have yet to meet a web developer who's so into Flash that they say moronic things like "people who can't get Flash running don't deserve to see my site" and has the guts to tell somebody who's partially sighted that they have no right to access their content.

EDIT: As a small point, there's extremely little that can only be achieved with Flash (over, say, Javascript and XHTML) beyond bling. Yes, it makes things prettier, and yes - it's true that Flash video has really brought something new to the party. However, it simply isn't practical as a full interface as yet, since (as I said) Flash objects are binary and the whole point of the web is simple, almost-human-readable text. It also won't ever take over the web (and neither will Silverlight), for the simple reason that they're closed standards and nobody wants one company to have full control. That would be A Very Bad Thing. On the other hand....should an open Flash-like technology appear, we may see a shift in the natural state of things. Until then, I'm happy with HTML because it's quick, easy and doesn't discriminate.
 
Just based on personal preference. I do a lot of browsing with lynx. It is really easy to cut out all of the extra crap on most sites. And it I cannot get my content that way. I will find another source.

Fancy just gets in the way a lot of time. I only have so much time an work and I an using part of that here. :rolleyes:
 
I don't know about the rest of you, but especially when I'm stuck on slow as hell DIAL UP, the last thing I want to do is wait around 20 minutes for 2MB of Flash "bling" to load. Same with your damned 15 minute MP3 background music encoded at 192kbps...
 
osalcido said:
Why is it that we can still do web browsing on a computer thats 10 years old? Why isnt flash-style webdesign the norm by now?
Click to expand...

When I think of Flash-style sites, I think of long load times, crappy introduction, and a trapped feeling. I think most other users agree. But to answer to your two questions:

1. You build a website for your audience, not for yourself. Most internet users don't have brand new computers that can handle flash-intensive websites. No business in their right mind would alienate a segment of their potential customer base. As other posters have already said with more grace, search engines can't find a businesses services or products in a site based on Flash. Mass appeal is key.

2. See number #1. Also, a heck of a lot of effort has gone into the current design and implementation of the web as we know it. If the market wants flash-style websites, the web designers of the world will deliver.

:)
 
The biggest inhibitor to furthering web content IMO is lack of portability. Companies make up their own standards and the web designers get stuck coding through browser compatibility issues. PITA

It's getting a little better (CSS adds a lot of flexibility) but has a ways to go.
 
eggrock said:
The biggest inhibitor to furthering web content IMO is lack of portability. Companies make up their own standards and the web designers get stuck coding through browser compatibility issues. PITA

It's getting a little better (CSS adds a lot of flexibility) but has a ways to go.
Click to expand...

I agree, a big PITA.

Its annoying have to design your site for all the different browsers, which each have their own quirks in how they display things. Thus you have to spend more time as a designer making it compatible with everything instead of furthering your design!
 
Met-AL said:
Once simple thing you can't do with a flash sites is copy and paste.
Click to expand...

Nor use tabs on links, as middle clicking links does nothing and right clicking brings up the flash menu.

osalcido said:
http://www.dreamincode.net/code/snippet152.htm

and again. i said flash in the beginning but I mean any flash-type plugin such as silverlight which would certainly have these simple functions.
Anyway, pretty obvious that most of the 'developers' here simpy do not know what interactive web design is capable of or that they dont even know what it really means.

So look at some of these examples and enjoy writing your little myspace page in notepad:
http://www.yeejie.com/silverlight_magazine/
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I tried to view that first page and it just asked me to install silverlight, so I closed the page. Great way to alienate your audience.

You can do plenty with just CSS/JS. There is no need to force 3rd party plugins on people.
 
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