The US Claims It Doesn't Need a Court Order to Ask Tech Companies to Build Encryption Backdoors

[Deleted member 184142]

They are right, they can ask all they like.
If they want to force they need a court order

No, no they can not.

The government has to follow what is set out in the constitution. Being able to access at will without a court order personal private information is not allowed. This would be the same as them installing cameras/mics etc into your home by asking the builder to install them, which is not legal for the government (or anyone else) to do.

 

[Aireoth]

No, no they can not.

The government has to follow what is set out in the constitution. Being able to access at will without a court order personal private information is not allowed. This would be the same as them installing cameras/mics etc into your home by asking the builder to install them, which is not legal for the government (or anyone else) to do.

Its sad that I find this thinking to be both cute and quaint.

 

[Deleted member 184142]

Its sad that I find this thinking to be both cute and quaint.

It might not be how the government acts, but it is how the law is. The fact they get away with it, and that even people here on a tech forum think it's just fine for them to do, I find quite scary.

 

[naib]

No, no they can not.

The government has to follow what is set out in the constitution. Being able to access at will without a court order personal private information is not allowed. This would be the same as them installing cameras/mics etc into your home by asking the builder to install them, which is not legal for the government (or anyone else) to do.

Read what I wrote...
They can ask all they like and that is what the article states....
I can ask you to give me $100, you do not have to act on that request.


If they expect the corporations todo it they can either incentify them (and then we get Intel ME) or they get a court order to enforce it

 

[lostin3d]

Someone actually pointed me to a security presentation last year regarding x86 vulnerabilities.



This is merely just an example of one thing, but if you watch it all the way through it shows that the x86's alone have many undocumented registers that can be manipulated for various purposes. These don't need OS or software. It's hardware level access. I'm sure ARM has similar items. Backdoors are already present if you know where to look.

 

[Deleted member 184142]

Read what I wrote...
They can ask all they like and that is what the article states....
I can ask you to give me $100, you do not have to act on that request.


If they expect the corporations todo it they can either incentify them (and then we get Intel ME) or they get a court order to enforce it

I did. You don't seem to understand the restrictions on government for this sort of thing, it is not legal. Now, if they do it and get away with it are something else. Most of this was started under the Patriot Act, however even their prized Section 702 does NOT allow for bulk data collection or actions of this sort and requires specific foreign targets to be legal without specific approval and warrant. They were however doing this already, but I guess people have short memories. But don't take my word for it, take the "U.S. House of Representatives Permanent Select Committee on INTELLIGENCE" word for it:

"Although “back-door searches” is a phrase used often by opponents of protecting this nation via the use of Section 702, the authority does not allow the government to carry out “back-door searches” of Americans’ communications. When NSA receives information related to terrorist threats, it may use things like a phone number, e-mail address, or name of a U.S. person to look at the databases of communications it already lawfully acquired through Section 702. Querying lawfully collected Section 702 collection is NOT the initiation of new surveillance or a new search protected under the Fourth Amendment; it is simply intelligence agencies reviewing the data they have already collected."

 

[Grimlaking]

We as a nation have already legalized propaganda against the US citizenry by our own nation. Talk about a bad idea. Now we are becoming more and more of a police state and it's sickening.

 

[Aireoth]

It might not be how the government acts, but it is how the law is. The fact they get away with it, and that even people here on a tech forum think it's just fine for them to do, I find quite scary.

I see the vast majority think its not ok, but the reality is we cannot do anything about it. People are too easy for the powers that be to divide. Liberal, conservative, elite, poor, middle, sjw, hippy, yuppy, tax, no tax, etc etc etc. We cannot organize.

Edit: to expand on this, social media and news have taught us that our individual opinions matter over the group direction, that we cannot trust those that think different that we do, that one issue is enough to divide us.

For example Joe might want to hold the government accountable, but Joe also won't sell cakes to gay people, so Joe's out of the 'movement'. We've pretty much been taught that you have to see everything the same to organize, and to be fair Joe's a liability because others will attack the entire movement because of one persons unrelated ideological difference that is 'offensive'.

 

[lcpiper]

No, no they can not.

The government has to follow what is set out in the constitution. Being able to access at will without a court order personal private information is not allowed. This would be the same as them installing cameras/mics etc into your home by asking the builder to install them, which is not legal for the government (or anyone else) to do.

You are under a fundamentally flawed perception.

The US Constitution protects US Citizens. It does not protect foreign nationals and foreign governments.

US Intelligence Services exist to gain intelligence on Foreign entities. Because the world is all connected, the data and communications of many foreign entities transit, and are stored, on US systems.

Do you see where this is going?

There are laws that govern what the Intelligence Services can and can't do in relation to US Citizens.

So let's be clear, the personal and private information of a Non-US Person is fair game for US Intelligence Collection purposes. Always has been, most likely always will be.

 

[lcpiper]

I did. You don't seem to understand the restrictions on government for this sort of thing, it is not legal. Now, if they do it and get away with it are something else. Most of this was started under the Patriot Act, however even their prized Section 702 does NOT allow for bulk data collection or actions of this sort and requires specific foreign targets to be legal without specific approval and warrant. They were however doing this already, but I guess people have short memories. But don't take my word for it, take the "U.S. House of Representatives Permanent Select Committee on INTELLIGENCE" word for it:

"Although “back-door searches” is a phrase used often by opponents of protecting this nation via the use of Section 702, the authority does not allow the government to carry out “back-door searches” of Americans’ communications. When NSA receives information related to terrorist threats, it may use things like a phone number, e-mail address, or name of a U.S. person to look at the databases of communications it already lawfully acquired through Section 702. Querying lawfully collected Section 702 collection is NOT the initiation of new surveillance or a new search protected under the Fourth Amendment; it is simply intelligence agencies reviewing the data they have already collected."

BlueFireIce, You really make me wonder. You find excellent information, that quote from the House Intelligence Committee is a good one. That you remember it speaks to your increased understanding of things Intelligence related.

But then you make comments like "even their prized Section 702", and "Most of this was started under the Patriot Act".

Prior to the cell phone age, the US recorded the telephone conversations of every overseas phone call made to the United States. They did it from a direct hook-up with Ma-Bell, tapped right into the undersea phone cables that carried all international calls. It hasn't been a secret for decades, but it was certainly forgotten by everyone long ago. When the FTC broke up Ma-Bell, AT&T came out holding the keys to all International calling, and guess who still was sitting on the cable lines doing their thing.

It seems to me that you, hell, almost everyone here with a very few exceptions, have a myopically small view of Intelligence Collection in the world. It all started way back with our very first President, and it's never stopped and it's only grown over the years as technology has allowed. So when you speak as though Section 702 is something big or special, it's not. It's just another piece something so much greater. And it isn't all focused on us no matter how much you or others want to believe so.

There is a whole great big world out there, and there are a dozen ways to view it. Every bit of it means something. Some of it is worth knowing, some isn't. The art is all about getting it, and figuring it out. And it's a very old game.
https://www.cia.gov/kids-page/6-12th-grade/operation-history/history-of-american-intelligence.html

In the very first presidential State of the Union address, George Washington requested that Congress establish a “secret service fund” for clandestine (or secret) activities. As the commander-in-chief of the Continental Army during the Revolutionary War, Washington knew how important these clandestine operations were to the new country.

Now put this statement into context. This is an age before the inventions of the camera, the radio, or the telephone. The light bulb did not yet exist.

Today, we have so many INTs, I'm sure there are even some you have never heard of and didn't know they were even a thing.

HUMINT is the oldest by far. But there are many others. Here is a nice Open Source listing;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intelligence_gathering_disciplines

• 1 HUMINT
• 2 GEOINT
• 3 MASINT
• 4 OSINT
• 5 SIGINT
• 6 TECHINT
• 7 CYBINT/DNINT
• 8 FININT

It even includes OSINT, Open-source intelligence—gathered from open sources ..... lol, see what I did there

BTW: I'm pretty sure that this sounds like I am picking on you. I'd rather you consider it a back handed compliment. You are certainly not alone, not by a long shot. It was just your comments I found handy.

 

[Deleted member 184142]

You are under a fundamentally flawed perception.

The US Constitution protects US Citizens. It does not protect foreign nationals and foreign governments.

US Intelligence Services exist to gain intelligence on Foreign entities. Because the world is all connected, the data and communications of many foreign entities transit, and are stored, on US systems.

Do you see where this is going?

There are laws that govern what the Intelligence Services can and can't do in relation to US Citizens.

So let's be clear, the personal and private information of a Non-US Person is fair game for US Intelligence Collection purposes. Always has been, most likely always will be.

Where did I say other wise? My quote even specifically covered this.

BlueFireIce, You really make me wonder. You find excellent information, that quote from the House Intelligence Committee is a good one. That you remember it speaks to your increased understanding of things Intelligence related.

But then you make comments like "even their prized Section 702", and "Most of this was started under the Patriot Act".

Prior to the cell phone age, the US recorded the telephone conversations of every overseas phone call made to the United States. They did it from a direct hook-up with Ma-Bell, tapped right into the undersea phone cables that carried all international calls. It hasn't been a secret for decades, but it was certainly forgotten by everyone long ago. When the FTC broke up Ma-Bell, AT&T came out holding the keys to all International calling, and guess who still was sitting on the cable lines doing their thing.

It seems to me that you, hell, almost everyone here with a very few exceptions, have a myopically small view of Intelligence Collection in the world. It all started way back with our very first President, and it's never stopped and it's only grown over the years as technology has allowed. So when you speak as though Section 702 is something big or special, it's not. It's just another piece something so much greater. And it isn't all focused on us no matter how much you or others want to believe so.

There is a whole great big world out there, and there are a dozen ways to view it. Every bit of it means something. Some of it is worth knowing, some isn't. The art is all about getting it, and figuring it out. And it's a very old game.
https://www.cia.gov/kids-page/6-12th-grade/operation-history/history-of-american-intelligence.html


Now put this statement into context. This is an age before the inventions of the camera, the radio, or the telephone. The light bulb did not yet exist.

Today, we have so many INTs, I'm sure there are even some you have never heard of and didn't know they were even a thing.

HUMINT is the oldest by far. But there are many others. Here is a nice Open Source listing;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intelligence_gathering_disciplines


It even includes OSINT, Open-source intelligence—gathered from open sources ..... lol, see what I did there

BTW: I'm pretty sure that this sounds like I am picking on you. I'd rather you consider it a back handed compliment. You are certainly not alone, not by a long shot. It was just your comments I found handy.

You seem to have skipped over a good deal of what you quoted as I said "Now, if they do it and get away with it are something else." Which was in reference to everything you mentioned including what was released when WikiLeaks came about, which is still only the tip of it all if you want to talk about illegal actions that have happened, and even still, that is just what is known and I am willing to bet that is only a small fraction of the things they do and get away with. Lots of which was illegal, but little if anything has come of it. Which goes back to my own quote of "Now, if they do it and get away with it are something else."

I don't take it as picking, I just didn't mention all of that, as even what you talked about is only a fraction of what goes on, and again, that is just what has leaked and we know about. I only mentioned specific parts in relations to what they are claiming and the post that I was quoting.

 

[lcpiper]

Where did I say other wise? My quote even specifically covered this.



You seem to have skipped over a good deal of what you quoted as I said "Now, if they do it and get away with it are something else." Which was in reference to everything you mentioned including what was released when WikiLeaks came about, which is still only the tip of it all if you want to talk about illegal actions that have happened, and even still, that is just what is known and I am willing to bet that is only a small fraction of the things they do and get away with. Lots of which was illegal, but little if anything has come of it. Which goes back to my own quote of "Now, if they do it and get away with it are something else."

I don't take it as picking, I just didn't mention all of that, as even what you talked about is only a fraction of what goes on, and again, that is just what has leaked and we know about. I only mentioned specific parts in relations to what they are claiming and the post that I was quoting.

I'll relook it, and get back in this post.

It's possible that I didn't explain myself properly.

OK, it starts here where you are replying to another's post about asking and demanding;

By BlueFireIce;
The government has to follow what is set out in the constitution

The point I was trying to make was that sounds like you, and others are starting from a false premise, that being ... that we are talking about actions taken against US Persons. But these Intelligence Agencies are, by far, for the most part not operating against US persons but against Foreign Entities which are not protected by the US Constitution, meaning it doesn't even come into play.

Now if you are talking about US Law Enforcement or the FBI under their Domestic roles, or for the most part any government organization who's role could lead to arrest and charges then yes, you start with the Constitution. But Intelligence Collection isn't about arresting people, it's about gathering information that is used for policy planning or warfare, and the targets are foreign, even if the targets, comms and data flow over US Communications and Data Systems.

So what I am saying is that if the NSA wants AT&T to let them sit on the trunk and suck up all foreign traffic, the Constitution doesn't come into play other than it empowers them to do so.

If I misunderstood your comments in part or as a whole, please forgive.

 

[Deleted member 184142]

I'll relook it, and get back in this post.

It's possible that I didn't explain myself properly.

From what I gathered, you think that I didn't think this was happening before, or that it was some new law that allowed for the current state of collection and spying. If that is how it comes off, that is not what I meant, not even close. I didn't mention any further back due to well....I don't have that kinda free time to post about everything and would take forever to cover even a fraction, no less get well into the legal reasons, many of which requires linking past laws, as some things done in the past are no longer illegal, but were at the time. Much like things that are known today and people don't even think about, would have sparked out rage at the time.

 

[lcpiper]

From what I gathered, you think that I didn't think this was happening before, or that it was some new law that allowed for the current state of collection and spying. If that is how it comes off, that is not what I meant, not even close. I didn't mention any further back due to well....I don't have that kinda free time to post about everything and would take forever to cover even a fraction, no less get well into the legal reasons, many of which requires linking past laws, as some things done in the past are no longer illegal, but were at the time. Much like things that are known today and people don't even think about, would have sparked out rage at the time.

Please keep in mind, I have a penchant for quoting one person, but addressing many. It's why I say things like "You and many others ....."

If we agree on something, but you feel I unfairly singled you out, I'll accept your explanation and apologize if I gave affront. I'm more interested in getting out the message than beating someone down about it.

 

[ironforge]

Ask is different than force? I can ask the bank for a million dollar loan, zero interest, paid over 200 years. They probably won't take me up on the offer.

 

[thenjduke]

Wow not sure what to feel about this!

 

[Tekara]

Where are my fourth amendment rights? Idiots.

The Constitution is more like a suggestion or a theoretical guideline.

https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights-governments-100-mile-border-zone-map
https://www.newsmax.com/fastfeature...cement-fourth-amendment/2015/06/04/id/648618/
https://repository.law.miami.edu/cg...rer=&httpsredir=1&article=1049&context=umnsac

I'm not saying a person can't use the constitution in a legal defense, but there's enough legislative loopholes out there that they may never actually get to defend themselves to begin with.