The Slow Death Of The Manual Transmission

Will never go away in the States as long as there are muscle cars, and sports cars.
 
I've been driving manual transmission since I learned how to drive. It kind of upsets me that there aren't many options when shopping around for new cars, I always have to really hunt for one. Each time I drive a friend's automatic it just doesn't feel right, I can't time or delay shifts when going up hills, turns etc. It's like I'm always at the mercy of the car. I just can never get used to it.

Actually, there was only once in which I was extremely grateful that I wasn't driving a manual, when I took a trip to San Francisco...that place is a nightmare for driving.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Wow, so you cycle through 1-4 with the selector in low, then cycle through the same positions again with the selector in high for 5-8?

That would be confusing as hell to me, but I guess you get used to it.

Do you have to double-clutch those things?
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No the only time you actually use the clutch is for when you start off or come to a stop, the rest of the time you are shifting by RPM's or once you have been driving long enough you just go by the sound of the engine. Downshifting is where it gets tricky, you have to rev the engine to the appropriate RPM's and select the appropriate gear for the speed you are going.
 
M76 said:
I wouldn't give a license to anyone who can't drive a stick. But where I live, if you learn on an automatic, you're only allowed to drive an automatic with your license. So people are forced to learn them if they don't want that restriction on their license.
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LoL what? Where the hell do you live that there's a restriction based on the cars transmission based on which car you got the license with? That's like putting a restriction on HP of what car you can drive because you took your test in a Honda Civic.


That said, I live in an area that doesn't get major weather issues (i.e. snow, sleet, ice, etc) and freeways are very clogged, in a city that's quite hilly (yes I actually go up hill both ways to work!), as a result automatic is the way to go. Manual transmission is a dinosaur, but then again this thread shows you have pompous fucks who think that "it's not really driving" if you're not driving a stick.
 
Does it really matter? OP mentioned that the death of the manual will be the EV.

My DD is a 2011 Fiesta w/stick. Summer car is a 2015 Mustang GT, stick.

I bought the Fiesta with a stick because I *believe* a manual is more reliable.
I ordered the Mustang with a stick because Ford doesn't offer a DSG - which means the manual is more fun.

The death of the manual started years ago when parents/drivers ed stopped teaching people to drive one.

Since the majority of new drivers can't drive a stick, auto manufactures make vehicles that can be driven.

There are many of us that love to row our own. Unfortunately, outside of 'sports cars', you get a shit stick.

Why is the 6-speed trans in the Fiesta reserved for the ST?

Why is the 6-speed trans in the Focus reserved for the ST/RS?
 
sfsuphysics said:
LoL what? Where the hell do you live that there's a restriction based on the cars transmission based on which car you got the license with? That's like putting a restriction on HP of what car you can drive because you took your test in a Honda Civic.
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It's like this in many places outside the U.S. When I grew up in Sweden, as I recall, if you took your license in an automatic car, you got a restricted license that only allowed operating automatics. I haven't been back there in many years now though. Not sure if this is still the case.
 
I like to watch amazing race. What is funny is when people get on and they grind the fuck out of the gears, because yeah, pretty much all the cars they have to drive are manuals.
 
I have been driving electric vehicles for 5 years now and I have to say not having gearing is one of the coolest things about the ride. It's like you are on a monorail or bullet train, smooth completely, quiet acceleration and zero lag in responsiveness from when you touch the pedal to the car responding to you. I feel like I am in a futuristic space ship.
 
Yes Clutch/H Pattern transmissions are effectively being phased out.

Hydraulic automatic with a converter isn't gaining any more market share then it was. In fact its also declining.

Manumatic is what is being phased in which is a clutchless transmission that has auto and manual shifted functions. They are superior in every way especially when these days you cant shift a car as fast as they can. So when i see people say "I prefer to have more control with a manual" What kind of benefit/control does dis-coupling the engine crankshaft from the transmission input shaft? They are making the transmission and engine controllers smarter and they are now working together over CANBus. They can self protect and do launch control and they are consistent which takes all human error out of the equation.
 
Ducman69 said:
The source is common knowledge, so I'm sure you can google some examples.
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Maybe common knowledge in your circles. My (very) brief googling found nothing, I was hoping that since your familiar with the subject you might know where to find this info.
Electric motors have an efficiency curve, which you learn about with RC planes in particular when sizing them and the props. They absolutely have a peak power area that they are most efficient in. And regarding 0RPM torque, that prevents the need for a clutch/torque converter when coming to a stop, but not the need for a transmission.

Unlike an internal combustion engines, your legs produce about the same peak torque at 0RPM as they do at say 20RPM, and you don't have to worry if you stop moving them just like an electric motor. So why does your bicycle have a transmission? Because you can multiply the power of your legs at the sacrifice of speed.

There are also internal combustion engines that produce peak torque just above idle, and yet they too greatly benefit from transmissions. VW's 1.8 liter turbo produces peak torque at 1,700RPM, just 900 RPM above its idle speed. Yet it still makes sense not to shift into the next gear until about 5,500rpm. Why? Because of torque multiplication, where the multiplying factor of being in 1st gear is greater than the torque drop off as RPMs climb until about that RPM.

Also, a 7th generation Corvette can go from 0MPH to its top speed in 5th gear, as Jeremy Clarkson tested a few years back. So it too could operate without a gearbox just fine fixed in say 3rd or 4th gear, but it wouldn't work as well or be able to reach really high speeds. But, wait a second, why is it that most electric cars have such a low top speed?

Simple, again because they don't have a gearbox. So they put on the lowest gearing they can to reasonably hit a useful top speed without overspinning the motor, and just artificially cap it.

So an electric car with a gearbox would have:
1) Improved overall performance
2) Higher top speed
3) More torque at the wheels at low speed for towing
4) Potentially greater efficiency and thus range

Here's an article discussing how they are making electric specific transmissions, now that electric vehicles are becoming more popular, mostly 3-speed and 4-speed designs:
http://www.plugincars.com/efficiency-multi-speed-transmissions-electric-cars-107656.html
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My argument basically is this, take two motors, one electric, one IC engine, both with the same peak power. If you gear them to both hit their peak power at the same speed, the electric will outaccelerate the IC engine, because it will have more power at low rpm. This makes going without a tranmission very reasonable with an electric motor, and extremely difficult with an IC engine without oversizing the IC engine like crazy.

Removing the transmission is a reduced cost and complexity that can be accomplished with EV vehicles.
Even racing teams in formula E do not agree whether transmissions on their vehicles are beneficial or not.
http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2015/november/boxing-clever.aspx
http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2016/october/insight-how-the-cars-have-changed/
I don't really disagree with the rest of your post. There are obvious benefits to having a transmission.
 
Gopher1 said:
Driving in snow and on ice:

Worst combination:

Rear wheel drive and automatic transmission

Best combination:

Front/all wheel drive and manual transmission
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That is a load of shit but some people hold onto that myth just like the myth that screen tearing only happens above refresh rate...
 
misterbobby said:
That is a load of shit but some people hold onto that myth just like the myth that screen tearing only happens above refresh rate...
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That rear wheel drive is bad in the snow?

Nope. That one is 100% absolutely true.

No truer truth among all truths that have ever existed is more true. To have any experience at all with rear wheel drive and not accept it is to be overwhelmingly willfully blind.

:p
 
I love my 2017 Chevrolet Volt. Driving in EV mode is very enjoyable because there's no gearing to worry about. The things drives like a sports car in town but without the vibration/noise. If you're going any distance, you put it in Hold Mode and drive on the ICE for highway miles where it acts more like a true hybrid with a CVT. So you get a combination of every day fun but still good gas mileage.
 
sfsuphysics said:
LoL what? Where the hell do you live that there's a restriction based on the cars transmission based on which car you got the license with? That's like putting a restriction on HP of what car you can drive because you took your test in a Honda Civic.


That said, I live in an area that doesn't get major weather issues (i.e. snow, sleet, ice, etc) and freeways are very clogged, in a city that's quite hilly (yes I actually go up hill both ways to work!), as a result automatic is the way to go. Manual transmission is a dinosaur, but then again this thread shows you have pompous fucks who think that "it's not really driving" if you're not driving a stick.
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The EU. And it makes sense.

Your example is flawed. Would you give a license for a truck to someone who hasn't proved they have the ability to operate one?

From what I've read, the US is crazy lax with safety. Then again, you people can buy guns with your groceries
 
Back in 2002 when the auto went out on my modded 95 Z28, it was a no brainer to switch it over to a M6, never had so much fun in my life. I wish I could have got one in my Optima SX...
 
To mention as well, auto draws more fuel from the engine than a manual. I like manuals over auto. They're fun, save fuel, n if its a suped up vehicle, they are faster.
 
at this point i dont think i really care, what im really interested is in electric vehicles, theyre way cooler, and fucking fast :p
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I'm at a total loss as regards what comes next. I used to be a car enthusiast. Now, since I have become disillusioned and don't like anything on the market (within my budget) cars have just become grocery getters to me, and that makes me a bit sad.
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Chevy SS/Holden SSV Redline. Full size sleeper. 450rwhp LS3 with a cam and headers. TR6060/T56 6 speed (the greatest 6 speed H pattern on the planet, far better than the vaunted S2000 Aisin AY6, I own both!) and a carbon clutch rear LSD factory.

Do it. 2017 is last production year in Auz and they're practically at your budget new.. they do not depreciate much, check out a g8 gxp pricing.. same here in NZ market with Holden/HSV.
 
I won't mind driving a semi-auto transmission with paddle shift, but I'll never go back to operating a stick.

Of course paddle shift mostly belongs to theluxury segment, so I'll be sticking with auto for a long time.
 
serpretetsky said:
Maybe common knowledge in your circles. My (very) brief googling found nothing, I was hoping that since your familiar with the subject you might know where to find this info.
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The knowledge comes from electric conversions, in which they found the instant torque of electric motors would break traditional ICE trannies, even when the motors were of lower peak power.
serpretetsky said:
My argument basically is this, take two motors, one electric, one IC engine, both with the same peak power. If you gear them to both hit their peak power at the same speed, the electric will outaccelerate the IC engine, because it will have more power at low rpm. This makes going without a tranmission very reasonable with an electric motor, and extremely difficult with an IC engine without oversizing the IC engine like crazy.
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You're confused. You think that full potential torque at 0RPM with a flat torque curve means MORE torque than an ICE engine below peak horsepower, and that's obviously false. Flat != More. My mom's 2.0 liter TDI produces only 140 peak horsepower, but it produces 240ftlbs of torque just off idle. The TDI produces far more peak torque than a 140 peak horsepower electric motor, at the crank even before you factor in torque multiplication from a gearbox. The TDI requires a transmission because you wouldn't be able to stop the car without one, whereas the electric motor does not. Both will benefit from torque multiplication with a transmission.

The main thing you're refusing to acknowledge is torque multiplication from a gearbox. With torque multiplication, I can lift a 5,000lb truck off the ground with a hand crank.

Lets say that you have 100ftlbs of torque (doesn't matter if its ICE or electric), and you have a first gear ratio of 3.0 and a final drive of 5.0, you multiply the gearing and get 1,500ftlbs of torque at the wheel. So lets say you wanted to make an 18-wheeler truck that can tow a full load which takes 1,500ftlbs to get rolling, but not use a gearbox. That means that you would need to use a 1,5000ftlbs motor to get the same torque as a tiny 100ftlbs ICE w/ a tranny, and that would be insanely huge.
serpretetsky said:
Even racing teams in formula E do not agree whether transmissions on their vehicles are beneficial or not.
http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2015/november/boxing-clever.aspx
http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2016/october/insight-how-the-cars-have-changed/
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You're confused again. Those twin motor designs do "switch gears" when engaging the second electric motor, same as Chevy does. Its some kind of weird helical gearbox design.

The designs you show are 2-speed (start + race gear), 2-speed (first motor, then kicks in second motor that effectively changes gearing), 3-speed, and 5-speed. None of them were truly fixed gear, and for the most part they aren't stopping and starting as often as a street vehicle at all the stop signs, stop lights, and 90o intersection turns.

I'm not arguing that electrics need CVTs or lots of gears, but that they can certainly benefit from transmissions of some sort as the technology matures that allows for them. As the other article I posted showed, 3-speed electric trannies will likely become the norm.
 
Well, a modern-day, well-designed flippy-paddle gearbox simply works better and shifts faster than any human could.

I don't deny the thrill of stiff-clutched rock-crusher though :)

I do not necessarily apply this to Pickup Trucks though. IMHO, you cannot beat a heavy-duty Granny-First 4 speed Manual in a 4 X 4 Pickup.

Thats what I grew up with, and I still think it provides the best balance.
 
CVT's are not used because they are good, or because they offer features above Auto's or Manuals.

They are used because they are CHEAP.

A CVT on my Lawn Tractor is fine, but I don't want it anywhere near my car. I HATE the damn things in cars.
 
TechLarry said:
CVT's are not used because they are good, or because they offer features above Auto's or Manuals.
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Well, in theory, no traditional manual or automatic transmission should be able to compete with a CVT. Because CVTs hold the engine at peak horsepower and never have to shift, they should always, without exception, be faster than switching gears.

Problem is I heard its been for all intents and purposes impossible to make a CVT that can handle a lot of horsepower without slipping, and from a marketing standpoint people really hated having their engines hanging indefinitely at peak horsepower RPMs all the time as instead of a cool vrooooooOOOm... vrooooOOOOm, you get DROOOOOOOOOOOOOOAN which sounds crappy.
 
TechLarry said:
I do not necessarily apply this to Pickup Trucks though. IMHO, you cannot beat a heavy-duty Granny-First 4 speed Manual in a 4 X 4 Pickup.

Thats what I grew up with, and I still think it provides the best balance.
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My dads 59 is a granny first, second, and third. No difference between starting in first or third gear except when you have to shift next.
 
I've been driving a stick for decades, one thing to factor is manuals are more durable, easier to fix and maintenance is cheaper and the intervals are longer.

Depending on the age of the car when the auto goes most people junk them as the cost can be more then what the car is worth.
 
nilepez said:
I can drive both. New car is automatic, my old car is manual. So far, I think the old manual gets better MPG in the city, but the new one does a bit better on the highway. I honestly don't care which I drive, but as we move to hybrid/electric tech, I think it's likely that Automatic will be more efficient. I'll also add that I know a lot of people who can't drive a standard. I'm not sure I know anyone under 40 that can drive a standard and I know plenty of older individuals that can't and are scared to try (even though I think the days of standards being hard to drive probably ended in the 60s or 70s.
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I mostly drive manuals, and I'm certain I get worse mileage with them just because I'm usually in a lower gear than necessary and having fun. Automatics are like zombie boring time.
 
Nolan7689 said:
My dads 59 is a granny first, second, and third. No difference between starting in first or third gear except when you have to shift next.
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I had a 65 ford 3/4 ton pickup like that. You could idle up a cliff in third in that thing. Oh and you never started in first unless you like redlining at 7 mph or so.
 
Gopher1 said:
Driving in snow and on ice:

Worst combination:

Rear wheel drive and automatic transmission

Best combination:

Front/all wheel drive and manual transmission
Click to expand...
It's all in the tires. I dare you to try driving my old integra gsr up any incline in even the lightest snow when I had summer tires.
 
all cars should have manual transmissions (unless a medical condition warrants an auto) because you have to pay attention when you drive a manual , you don't have time to talk or text or put on your makeup or eat a messy azz sandwich...highway driving would give you some time but city driving accidents from not paying attention are the majority. I prefer a manual because I feel more engaged in the art of driving.
 
Ducman69 said:
Well, in theory, no traditional manual or automatic transmission should be able to compete with a CVT. Because CVTs hold the engine at peak horsepower and never have to shift, they should always, without exception, be faster than switching gears.

Problem is I heard its been for all intents and purposes impossible to make a CVT that can handle a lot of horsepower without slipping, and from a marketing standpoint people really hated having their engines hanging indefinitely at peak horsepower RPMs all the time as instead of a cool vrooooooOOOm... vrooooOOOOm, you get DROOOOOOOOOOOOOOAN which sounds crappy.
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Lexus has it up to 340 HP / 370 Nm and it works better than their automatic transmissions.

EDIT: Actually, it's 440 HP / 520 Nm.
 
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Hitti2 said:
To mention as well, auto draws more fuel from the engine than a manual. I like manuals over auto. They're fun, save fuel, n if its a suped up vehicle, they are faster.
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Only in the hands of an expert driver. Sadly, 99% of people who like to think that they are expert drivers, aren't.

TechLarry said:
Well, a modern-day, well-designed flippy-paddle gearbox simply works better and shifts faster than any human could.
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As proven on the track.

ep0x73 said:
I've been driving a stick for decades, one thing to factor is manuals are more durable, easier to fix and maintenance is cheaper and the intervals are longer.
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Depends on who you talk to. Brother in law is an auto trans mechanic. Says once you know the technology, they're pretty simple, and the heavy duty ones can handle as much power as you want. The big factor is wear is heat; he says almost every transmission cooler is inadequate for the car it's in; that they would last forever if properly maintained and cooled. He's installed a larger cooler in every car the family has owned, no transmission problems. Even the new autos that are known to fail, there have been fixes developed. But the big manufacturers won't recall them, because it's cheaper to fix whatever fails during warranty, and have the customer pay when they fail beyond that, or just sell them another car. But the E4OD Fords, Big turbohydramatics from GM, and Torqueflights from Chrysler, basically all the heavy duty trans used on the high hp/torque engines, were very reliable.
 
Ducman69 said:
Problem is I heard its been for all intents and purposes impossible to make a CVT that can handle a lot of horsepower without slipping, and from a marketing standpoint people really hated having their engines hanging indefinitely at peak horsepower RPMs all the time as instead of a cool vrooooooOOOm... vrooooOOOOm, you get DROOOOOOOOOOOOOOAN which sounds crappy.
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I think they can change the way the CVT performs so that it feels like an automatic. I test drove a Nissan Altima several years ago and it felt like it was shifting.

Me personally, I'm just not sure I trust them that much long term. A good automatic transmission should last 150,000 miles or more before shitting the bed. I don't think CVT's are quite at that level yet.
 
sfsuphysics said:
LoL what? Where the hell do you live that there's a restriction based on the cars transmission based on which car you got the license with? That's like putting a restriction on HP of what car you can drive because you took your test in a Honda Civic.


That said, I live in an area that doesn't get major weather issues (i.e. snow, sleet, ice, etc) and freeways are very clogged, in a city that's quite hilly (yes I actually go up hill both ways to work!), as a result automatic is the way to go. Manual transmission is a dinosaur, but then again this thread shows you have pompous fucks who think that "it's not really driving" if you're not driving a stick.
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It's a good thing there is a restriction so idiots don't drive trough walls or into pedestrians, when they get into a manual car for the first time. Of course #notall, but better safe than sorry. If anyone can drive a manual even those who never seen one before, then why is it so hard to take the license test with a manual? It's not an unreasonable demand.

What do hills have to do with an automatic transmission? Do you mean you're unable to perform a hill start with a manual? If that's the case all the more reason for people to take their test in a manual if they want to drive a manual later.

There is no doubt that it's much more comfortable to drive an automatic in stop and go traffic, but how is that relevant? You cry and outrage because there are places where you can't drive a manaual without taking the test on one, then you go on to bash manuals, and say that automatic is the way to go anyway. Make up your mind already!

There should be a restriction on licenses, because driving a stick takes more experience, and if you have zero experience then you shouldn't drive one in traffic.

Did I tell you "it's not really driving"? You're only projecting your own insecurities at this point.

By the way you look down on civics and curse and squirm it seems to me that you're the pompous one here. I don't think a Type-R civic is something to frown at and look down on. But HP is not even a good indicator of how fast a car is or how hard it is to drive. If you wanted to make a good analogy you should've used FWD vs RWD. But even with that you wouldn't be right because the differences of those only become apparent when driving on the edge, which should never happen in normal daily driving.
 
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Ducman69 said:
Manual transmission advantages:
1) Improved fuel economy
2) Improved efficiency so more horsepower (less parasitic losses)
3) Lighter weight
4) Simpler and thus cheaper to make
5) Clutch slip provides enhanced control at low speeds
6) Being able to anticipate gear selection (I can shift before I'm about to pass, instead of starting to pass and waiting for the automatic to realize I want it to downshift)
7) Greater control through engine braking
8) Greater control by "hanging" on to gears when appropriate
9) Its fun!

Downsides:
1) You have to have additional driving skill to know hot to operate a clutch, and if really mentally challenged may find it a distraction and get into an accident (if rubbing your belly in a circular motion while tapping your head causes so much confusion you lose bowel control, stick is not for you)
2) Can't as easily eat french fries and talk on your cellphone while driving (stop that, fatty)
3) The best automatics actually shift faster than most people can manually now
4) With very powerful engines, clutch weight can sometimes be high and cause leg fatigue in small girls and males with the muscle strength of small girls.
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1) not really, CVT and auto trans generally come with more gears = better performance and economy
2) all modern autos have a lockup convertor
3) probably true
4) kind of true, but lower volumes = higher development and production costs.
5) at low speeds when the auto is not locked it also slips
6) so manually shift you the auto before you accelerate
7) your brakes are better for braking
8) where on the street is this appropriate?
9) debatable - rush hour traffic

1) slightly true, but its not that hard
2) idk, knew a guy with a broken right arm that shifted and talked on the phone (not hands free)
3) true
4) haha
 
Why do people like riding horses? Perhaps it is a bad analogy for most, but for me it is the perfect one. The aforementioned control and the feeling of being closer to the beast. I'm not a passive person, so maybe that has something to do with it. I like to be as fully engaged as possible in whatever I'm doing.
 
Having a manual is only great as long as you have enough torque. Having a small engine that requires constant rowing between second and third (I'm looking at you, Acura RSX) in traffic fucking blows. That being said, my next car might be a DSG of some sort.
 
nightfly said:
Only in the hands of an expert driver. Sadly, 99% of people who like to think that they are expert drivers, aren't.


As proven on the track.


Depends on who you talk to. Brother in law is an auto trans mechanic. Says once you know the technology, they're pretty simple, and the heavy duty ones can handle as much power as you want. The big factor is wear is heat; he says almost every transmission cooler is inadequate for the car it's in; that they would last forever if properly maintained and cooled. He's installed a larger cooler in every car the family has owned, no transmission problems. Even the new autos that are known to fail, there have been fixes developed. But the big manufacturers won't recall them, because it's cheaper to fix whatever fails during warranty, and have the customer pay when they fail beyond that, or just sell them another car. But the E4OD Fords, Big turbohydramatics from GM, and Torqueflights from Chrysler, basically all the heavy duty trans used on the high hp/torque engines, were very reliable.
Click to expand...


Well all I can say is you can toss 5-10 QT of synthetic ATF into an auto every 25-30k @ $10 qt or 1.5L of Redline for about $10 every 60k and you see the price difference.

Depending on the vehicle the amount has to be precise, it has to at operating temp and topped off or it will slip if too low or too high, none of that BS with a manual.

Last I recall due to MPG all major rig makers still use manuals.

Just to note, nothing simple about automatics, they are like a fine watch with many very tiny gears, small passages, etc.
 
If we do ever transition over to electric (or hydrogen) cars, that's when the manual transmission will be gone for good. I'm in the market to buy a new car right now and I was looking at buying a manual (I currently own an auto) and then I looked at my constant stop and go commute and decided I was crazy considering a manual for my daily driver. I'm currently considering a 2.0L Turbo Camaro with an auto. I'm sure that's sacrilegious to some people, but I don't care. You drive what you want and I'll drive what I want. Although I do reserve the right to laugh at you if your car slams into the ground coming out of a parking lot or you can't park anywhere because you lifted truck won't fit in any of the garages.

I'm fairly certain manual transmissions will exist as long as people keep buying them and even then there are always classic cars. If I can ever afford a property with a garage I'm going to get a project car and you can bet that one will be manual (although I was born in the 80s so it will probably be something you older guys think is stupid like a Honda CRX or Nissan 240sx).
 
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