The Road to PS5 - Deep Dive into PlayStation 5's system architecture

DukenukemX

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Yes. Different platforms have different people that like them for their own reasons.
And those people are idiots. About as stupid as people who believe that cloud gaming is the future.
Yes, let's just totally ignore all the difference between platforms. That's a great way to make your point.
If you see a tangible different then let me know. All I see is walled gardens with different speed ram.
Gears 5 is one of the best optimized PC titles in years. You're trying to make up bullshit excuses just because something doesn't fit your narrative. It's okay to admit you're wrong, no one will think less of you.
How do you know Gears 5 is optimized at all, let alone the best optimized game in years? Look who's making up shit. All I'm saying is that Microsoft is using a Microsoft product like Gears 5 to promote how much better the Microsoft Xbox Series X is. Think for yourselves, don't be sheep.
A PS4 emulator will require significantly more power than the console itself to run, like every software emulator. Probably not to the same extreme as older generations, simply due to similar instruction sets, but it will still require more. So, not really a good example.
If you know anything about programming, and it's obvious you don't, then you'll know that since the PS4 and Xbox One are so similar to PC that you could run the emulator though a Virtual Machine. Orbital for example uses QEMU to simulate the PS4 hardware. I've actually talked to AlexAltea the author of Orbital as he does visit Phoronix.com the linux news website, and he's using HAXM, a cross-platform open-source type-2 hypervisor. He's actually contributing code to it so it can better run his PS4 emulator. CPU emulation is done, but the majority of his work is the BIOS/OS and translating GCN to Vulkan/SPIR-V. The later is taking so much time that he's gone underground until that's finished.
 
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Snowdog

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The GPU in SX is roughly equivalent to the 2080/2080 Super. The GPU alone could cost more than either console. And that assumes this hypothetical person has a good enough PSU to handle it, a case with support (an issue with some pre-builts), and a CPU that won't cause a massive bottleneck.
The XBSX is an unpriced, unshipping product, you would have to compare to what actually is available when it's actually shipping, and has an actual price.

Right now we can compare to a XBX ($400), which I think a 1660 Super ($240) would best.

You also have to factor in monthly fees for a console, those add up fast.
 

next-Jin

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Sony was hyping up the 3D Tempest Audio feature...is it a big deal?
I’m a Sony gamer and I don’t think so. Like I said earlier it’ll end up just like the Sony Headset profiles for PS4 (no one other than Sony will care and even then maybe not even them).

After watching Digital Foundry’s assessment the TFLOPs might not be such a huge issue. I guess there is some validity to higher clock rates and the sheer amount of SSD speed and I/O improvements may make the overall experience better.

I still don’t really understand the Boost rates, I like MSs approach there but they said it’ll be fine.

Their I/O stuff looks really impressive.
 

Derangel

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The XBSX is an unpriced, unshipping product, you would have to compare to what actually is available when it's actually shipping, and has an actual price.

Right now we can compare to a XBX ($400), which I think a 1660 Super ($240) would best.

You also have to factor in monthly fees for a console, those add up fast.
If you're buying based on current consoles six months before new ones come out, you're doing yourself a disservice.

Who pays monthly?
 

Snowdog

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If you're buying based on current consoles six months before new ones come out, you're doing yourself a disservice.

Who pays monthly?
Monthly or annually, you are still paying to access the network, you are basically on the hook for endless rent.
 

Red Falcon

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Everyone is missing the primary issue with these new consoles: they aren't using an AMD Jaguar CPU.
Without that, and without the CPU bottlenecking the GPU and forcing all resolutions to run at 30fps, regardless of the GPU being used, what the hell are we going to have to complain about now?! :D
 

Derangel

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Monthly or annually, you are still paying to access the network, you are basically on the hook for endless rent.
Assuming you play multiplayer. Personally, I don't (at least, not enough to bother). I have Gold, but only because it's part of Game Pass Ultimate. For people that do, it will eventually add up. However, if we assume the SX's GPU really does come out as being near the 2080/Super then it would take years for that difference to add up to the cost of the GPU. Game prices are pretty similar across the board these days so can't save money there either. Maybe next generation cards from AMD and Nvidia will change the price dynamic between dGPUs and consoles, but that's a bridge to cross when we get to it.
 

grifter_66

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I'll likely do what I did last gen. Buy an Xbox at launch then grab a PS5 "Pro" for all the exclusives when that comes out and sell the Xbox in order to put that money towards building a cutting edge PC for multi platform games as that'll be about the time a top of the line PC will blow the doors off the consoles.
 

Red Falcon

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There's no console magic as I've shown Steam Doom 2016 running on the PS4 with Ultra settings.
The unified memory architecture is a massive difference between a traditional IBM-compatible PC, and the PS4/XBone hardware.
In the very video you posted, the presenter stated, and proved, that the hardware of the consoles, outside of the x86-64 CPU itself, was vastly different than PC hardware.

They also had to rewrite a ton of shit in the Linux kernel to get it to run properly on the PS4 - that was no simple config or script tweak.
While I do agree that it won't take the processing power to emulate modern consoles due to the similarities in code, there will still need to be a lot of work done in order to make it happen, and that is no small feat.

It looks easy because they had the skills, as excellent programmers, to make the process easy - that doesn't mean the process itself was ever easy.
There are other consoles and workstations that use x86 CPUs that are not PC-compatible and have completely different architectures overall, such as the PC-98 and FM-Towns, but that can be emulated with relative ease, thanks to the work and skill of programmers. ;)
 

chameleoneel

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I never said that that PC's can compete on equal pricing. Though, if you add in the cost of peripherals + Xbox Live/PS Plus, then PC is cheaper in the long term.
Yes, you can play games on a $15 mouse/keyboard combo pack. And that's probably reality for a lot of very young people. But...would you want to play Playstation with a $15 controller? I guess my point is that this probably isn't a great point to try and hash out, at all. Especially not as a definite positive.
And while I could be wrong, I would bet that most mainstream PC gamers with any sort of personal cash flow, own mice which cost $30-$50. Keyboards be damned. I actually really enjoy the basic $10 - $20 microsoft keyboard, myself. Even then, I'd say its more common than ever, to actually spend something non-trivial on your keyboard.

PS Plus and Live Gold do indeed cost money. And over some years, a fair bit of money. But...its not on nothing. I don't care to outline all of it. But if you look back over the lifetime of the PS4, it fairs pretty well. Its really only been EGS and XBGP-PC, which have drastically bolstered the PC, in the past year (but those are still separate services, in a sea of services drowning us on PC). Whereas Live and PSN have many features under one, solid umbrella. And XBGP-PC while very cheap, is quite buggy. And it also could get more expensive at any moment, when they decide to really focus on it and take it out of beta.

But at the least, I will say that PSN seems to perform relatively a lot better, on slower internet connections, than the same multiplayer games do on PC. Even before payed PSN. I played Unreal Tournament III on PS3 in Alaska, because it played great on my crappy internet. Whereas the PC version was fully unplayable on the majority of servers.
 

DukenukemX

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The unified memory architecture is a massive difference between a traditional IBM-compatible PC, and the PS4/XBone hardware.
In the very video you posted, the presenter stated, and proved, that the hardware of the consoles, outside of the x86-64 CPU itself, was vastly different than PC hardware.
The unified memory is just a cost cutting method because the console is using 16GB of GDDR6. Keep in mind the difference of a CPU and GPU is their work loads and CPU's specialize in serial work while a GPU does a lot of math. There's a reason why desktop PC's still use DDR memory because it offers lower latency, which would help increase the performance of serial work. That's also the reason why CPU's use L2 and L3 cache, because DDR memory is still too slow in terms of latency. Makes you wonder how the Zen2 cores are going to perform with such high latency GDDR6? Also no word on what happened to the L3 cache.

Also yes the PS4 is different from PC but... that didn't stop anyone from running Linux on it. If you can run Linux and boot a PC game off Steam then its a PC. The PS4 is as different to PC as Apple's computer but that doesn't stop Apple from running Windows.
While I do agree that it won't take the processing power to emulate modern consoles due to the similarities in code, there will still need to be a lot of work done in order to make it happen, and that is no small feat.
Without documentation then yes, it'll take a lot of work. Most of the work is reverse engineering, which will take a lot of effort.
It looks easy because they had the skills, as excellent programmers, to make the process easy - that doesn't mean the process itself was ever easy.
There are other consoles and workstations that use x86 CPUs that are not PC-compatible and have completely different architectures overall, such as the PC-98 and FM-Towns, but that can be emulated with relative ease, thanks to the work and skill of programmers. ;)
I never said writing an emulator was easy.
 

Viper87227

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I never said that that PC's can compete on equal pricing. Though, if you add in the cost of peripherals + Xbox Live/PS Plus, then PC is cheaper in the long term.
You said "The only reason you'd have to play games on a console is because you're friends are on console and therefore you don't want to go on some other platform and distance yourself from them. "

Paying less money is a reason to play games on console. Probably the absolute most valid reason. And your statement completely disregards that. You can't compare two competing products and remove price from that equation. For most, that's the single most important factor.

That's roughly the performance of a RX 580 which you can find for a little over $100.
The cheapest RX580 I could find in short order was $160 for a shitty one. Which, even if you went with cheap, shit parts, you're probably still looing at $600 by the time you have everything you need. I challenge you to come up with a complete RX 580 build from new parts, with EVERYTHING you'd need, like a console would come with, for under $600 (which is still twice as expensive as the competing console).

Firstly, not all Xbox One games are enhanced for the Xbox One X. If it isn't enhanced then you get a marginal if any visual enhancement. On PC as long as you know how to increase the graphic settings in games, you'll always benefit from newer hardware. Also that $600 PC will likely come with things like a SSD, while the Xbox One X comes with a 1TB laptop hard drive. Also, Here's a $700 PC with a Ryzen 2600 plus RX 5700 with a 512GB SSD. With the exception of Ray-Tracing, that pre-built isn't too far off from the PS5, depending on how RDNA2 performs compared to RDNA1.
The Xbox One X was an example of my point, not an outlier. The fact that not all games are enhanced is irreverent. Standard XB1 can be had under $200. Can you build a complete, ready to game PC from new parts under $200? Didn't think so. The same will be true when the new consoles launch. The fact that you're linking some random, no name prebuilt PC to try and show your point proves your grasping at straws. Especially when (I shouldn't have to explain this), you absolutely cannot take a game console and a like-spec PC and expect they will be capable of the same performance. Consoles, every single one of them, have been able to be pushed father than their PC equivalent hardware ever could be. Developers get to work on a closed platform with a known constant hardware configuration, this allows them significantly more performance. The upcoming consoles, for less money, will absolutely outperform that system you linked. By a lot. A 5700 gets roughly 4K 30FPS in Gears 5. The upcoming Xbox, on a quick and unoptimized port, already can do 4K 60FPS, and they're targeting higher by launch. To get 4K 60fps on PC in Gears 5, requires a 2080 Ti. A (presumably) $500ish console is doing what a $1200 video card does, never mind that that $1200 video card equals a $2000+ build by the time you spec out appropriate parts.

If you genuinely don't understand what makes that PC you linked vastly different from the PS5 / XBSX architecture, this conversation is truly pointless.

If you buy a pre-built then you don't have to do any of that. Just log into Steam, Origin, Epic, or whatever and play your game.
Uh... what? In the line you quoted, you literally still have to do every single one of the things I mentioned, no matter who made your PC. How does having a prebuilt PC somehow absolve you from driver updates, launcher configuration, graphics settings, etc? Having someone else build your PC doesn't magically erase the complications of gaming on PC.

Considering we've just entered an economic depression, I doubt anyone has money for buying a console later this year, let alone PC hardware.
So after all this... you acknowledge that the burden of paying for a gaming PC is well beyond that of a console? Because that takes me right back to the very first line, there is your reason to buy a console over a PC smacking you square in the face. You are the one who made the claim that these consoles are no different than PCs and there's no logical reason to buy them. You've been proven wrong, by many people in this thread. You may not see the potential value in consoles, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You are obviously well unaware of what the average video game consumer wants. It's fine that you prefer playing on PC (so do I, and almost everyone here), but don't speak as if your opinion is fact.
 

GreenOrbs

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I'm actually quite pleased by the implications of the PS5 hitting 2.23 GHz on a APU type setup. I can only imagine with a dedicated cooler as a discreet card this bodes very well for the clocks on big Navi. Thats a good 200+ mHZ more than what the current gen 5700 series cards can hit. Given the thermal limitations of a console type device, this implies that some really impressive clocks might actually be possible on the PC side. Current gen NVIDIA cards typically clock around 2GHz on air regularly. Consoles don't typically push the clock as high as they can go too due to reliability concerns. Thus, I anticipate some nice clocks on next gen GPUs compared with this gen.
 

DukenukemX

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Yes, you can play games on a $15 mouse/keyboard combo pack. And that's probably reality for a lot of very young people. But...would you want to play Playstation with a $15 controller? I guess my point is that this probably isn't a great point to try and hash out, at all. Especially not as a definite positive.
And while I could be wrong, I would bet that most mainstream PC gamers with any sort of personal cash flow, own mice which cost $30-$50. Keyboards be damned. I actually really enjoy the basic $10 - $20 microsoft keyboard, myself. Even then, I'd say its more common than ever, to actually spend something non-trivial on your keyboard.
I mean... I guess? There are plenty of cheap gamepads just for PC, but the problem is most games on PC are built to use Xbox gamepads, and therefore anything else is a gamble if it'll work. I have Dualshock4 gamepads because the motion sensor can be used for games like Breath of the Wild through the emulator CEMU. They're expensive, and lots of PC games don't recognize it like the Xbox controller.
PS Plus and Live Gold do indeed cost money. And over some years, a fair bit of money. But...its not on nothing. I don't care to outline all of it. But if you look back over the lifetime of the PS4, it fairs pretty well. Its really only been EGS and XBGP-PC, which have drastically bolstered the PC, in the past year (but those are still separate services, in a sea of services drowning us on PC). Whereas Live and PSN have many features under one, solid umbrella. And XBGP-PC while very cheap, is quite buggy. And it also could get more expensive at any moment, when they decide to really focus on it and take it out of beta.
I don't like the idea of people justifying the Xbox Live or PS Plus service because it offers more than just playing your games online. It should just be free, just like on PC. If the extra bonus crap is worth having then let that be a paid for service, not the multiplayer feature. It's just like having Amazon Prime where it comes with a lot of extra crap, but really you just want the next day delivery. Lets see Amazon separate the services and see how well they'll do on their own. There's a reason why all that's bundled because they know they can justify the cost. Cable companies do the same thing.
But at the least, I will say that PSN seems to perform relatively a lot better, on slower internet connections, than the same multiplayer games do on PC. Even before payed PSN. I played Unreal Tournament III on PS3 in Alaska, because it played great on my crappy internet. Whereas the PC version was fully unplayable on the majority of servers.
That shouldn't matter, unless the PSN servers was closer to Alaska than the PC server. In which case that's not due to the service just location. Also probably because nobody lives in Alaska. Seriously, they pay people to live there.
 

Red Falcon

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The unified memory is just a cost cutting method because the console is using 16GB of GDDR6. Keep in mind the difference of a CPU and GPU is their work loads and CPU's specialize in serial work while a GPU does a lot of math. There's a reason why desktop PC's still use DDR memory because it offers lower latency, which would help increase the performance of serial work. That's also the reason why CPU's use L2 and L3 cache, because DDR memory is still too slow in terms of latency. Makes you wonder how the Zen2 cores are going to perform with such high latency GDDR6?
You are confusing "unified memory" with "shared memory" - they are not the same, nor operate even remotely similar.
The cost-cutting measure is just a bonus, but the performance gains (higher latency not withstanding) are where it really shines, with far fewer writes and copies needed compared to shared memory or traditionally separated RAM and VRAM pools.

If you can run Linux and boot a PC game off Steam then its a PC. The PS4 is as different to PC as Apple's computer but that doesn't stop Apple from running Windows.
None of that is even remotely true, and the only architecture difference in Apple x86-64 systems is the use of EFI and a few other minor differences - otherwise, they are IBM-compatible PC systems.
Modern consoles are not even remotely IBM-compatible systems - it takes far more than a CPU ISA to make up an entire system architecture.

DEC Alpha (not x86) workstations back in the 1990s used to be able to run Windows NT natively.
That didn't make them IBM-compatible PCs, though. ;)

I am running Linux on my PS3 cluster and can play games natively within it, but that doesn't make it an IBM-compatible PC.
I have seen Linux run on a 68000 SBC with 8MB of RAM and transcode MP3 files, but that doesn't make it an IBM-compatible PC, and instead is just a m68k computer that happens to be running Linux.


Not to get nit-picky with anachronisms or anything, but the term "PC" isn't just "personal computer", but an IBM-compatible computer (x86-based CPU and IBM-based system architecture for IRQs, memory addresses, etc.).
If the computer isn't IBM-compatible, then it isn't a PC - that's really all I mean. :)
 
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Nightfire

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Here's a $700 PC with a Ryzen 2600 plus RX 5700 with a 512GB SSD.[/url]
https://www.newegg.com/abs-computer-technologies-mage-e-ala145/p/N82E16883102829
With the exception of Ray-Tracing, that pre-built isn't too far off from the PS5, depending on how RDNA2 performs compared to RDNA1.
You really can't understand why someone would choose one of these new consoles to that RGB nerd monstrosity with 8GB of Ram, an RX 5700, and a cheapo 512 GB SSD (of which half will be used by OS and software) with no 4k BR or software optimization?

I've been around tech a long time and it is still much easier jump into a game on console than on PC even when it has an SSD. There is just always more that goes wrong with PC since you are dealing with more 'layers' - OS to drivers to Steam to Rockstar or whatever publisher stuff you have to log into. With console into is sign in and go.

That same PC you showed could be built at almost have the price if you forgo the gpu or if you travel a lot, a basic laptop.

Now you have a $400 PC that others in your family can use or a laptop you can travel with plus an easy to to use $600? console that will play games as good as anything and be a living room media center.

Sorry to break it to you, but this is reality outside your little bubble.
 

Red Falcon

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I've been around tech a long time and it is still much easier jump into a game on console than on PC even when it has an SSD. There is just always more that goes wrong with PC since you are dealing with more 'layers' - OS to drivers to Steam to Rockstar or whatever publisher stuff you have to log into. With console into is sign in and go.
This really is the bottom-line for the average non-PC gamer or end-user.
If they don't care about mods, want a simple to maintain system, and a quick sit down and play experience, then the consoles are the clear win.

Patches, compatibility issues, bugs, drivers, configuration, etc. are all things that go way over the average (non-[H]) computer user, and this is why mobile devices and consoles hit such a wide appeal.
Don't get me wrong, if it were up to me, we would all be running massive mainframes and/or server equipment with tons of manual hardware and software configurations. :D

As you said, though, the real world, and real markets and customers, do not work that way.
If the end-user says "I have $700 and want to game, but also want to do X task", then the PC may be the better choice, but if it is purely gaming, then the console will probably be it.

These consoles have quite powerful hardware, unlike the present generation, so unless mods and/or bleeding edge graphics and features are desired, these consoles are going to fit the bill for the majority of end-users.
 
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DukenukemX

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You said "The only reason you'd have to play games on a console is because you're friends are on console and therefore you don't want to go on some other platform and distance yourself from them. "
Yes, but what does that have to do with cost?
Paying less money upfront is a terrible reason to play games on console. Probably the absolute most valid reason. And your statement completely disregards that. You can't compare two competing products and remove price from that equation. For most, that's the single most important factor.
Paying less money up front is a reason. Like I said, how much money was spent in the past 7 years of owning a PS4 or Xbox One with Xbox Live and PS Plus? How much money could you save by buying PC games instead of console games?
The cheapest RX580 I could find in short order was $160 for a shitty one.
To be frank, it doesn't matter. The RX 580 performs pretty much the same as many other GPU's. The R9 290/290X/390/390X/GTX970/980/GTX1060 and the list literally goes on. You can even get a RX 5500 and that would be equivalent or better to the RX 580. As for the price I'm not sure why prices have gone up? They were much cheaper not long ago, but then again everyone is home playing games because the economy has crashed, so maybe everyone went to buy these graphic cards? Oddly enough the 5600XT and 5700 are really cheap right now, which suggests people aren't buying those.
Which, even if you went with cheap, shit parts, you're probably still looing at $600 by the time you have everything you need. I challenge you to come up with a complete RX 580 build from new parts, with EVERYTHING you'd need, like a console would come with, for under $600 (which is still twice as expensive as the competing console).
To be honest I couldn't build a PC that terrible for cheap. I'd literally have to choose better quality parts to keep it under $600. So here it is for $600, and $5 to get your license of Windows 10 Pro. Don't worry, the Windows 10 keys work fine as I've used it many times without issue. The very PC I'm typing on right now has a Windows 10 Pro key bought from Ebay with zero problems. Also I'm pretty sure you'll mention how it doesn't have a Blu-Ray drive and the parts don't meet you standards, because you seem that sort of person. Blah Blah Blah, needs a monitor, Blah, Blah, Blah, cheap this cheap that. That's why I went through the trouble to choose wireless mice so you can use this PC on your TV, like I do. Or just buy a $17 gamepad if you insist on one.

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 2600 3.4 GHz 6-Core Processor ($124.99 @ B&H)
Motherboard: Gigabyte B450M DS3H Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard ($72.98 @ Amazon)
Memory: G.Skill Aegis 8 GB (2 x 4 GB) DDR4-2133 Memory ($36.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Team L5 LITE 3D 480 GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($57.99 @ Newegg)
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 1660 6 GB BLACK GAMING Video Card ($183.98 @ Newegg)
Case: HEC HX310 ATX Mid Tower Case ($29.99 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: EVGA 500 W 80+ Certified ATX Power Supply ($44.99 @ ModMyMods)
Keyboard: Logitech K360 Wireless Mini Keyboard ($19.99 @ Best Buy)
Mouse: Logitech G602 Wireless Optical Mouse ($33.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $605.89
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-03-19 00:09 EDT-0400

The Xbox One X was an example of my point, not an outlier. The fact that not all games are enhanced is irreverent.
What would be the point of buying a more powerful console if not all the games can use the hardware? This is why I said the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X is like the Sega CD and 32X. It just divides the user base and does nothing for existing games unless developers go out of their way to use it. You don't have this problem with PC.
Standard XB1 can be had under $200. Can you build a complete, ready to game PC from new parts under $200? Didn't think so.
You got me there. Isn't the Xbox One a dead console though? Would rather have a PS4 personally.
The same will be true when the new consoles launch. The fact that you're linking some random, no name prebuilt PC to try and show your point proves your grasping at straws.
It was the first PC I found searching on NewEgg. You don't have a problem with the build quality of consoles but you have high standards for PC parts. I don't get it.
Especially when (I shouldn't have to explain this), you absolutely cannot take a game console and a like-spec PC and expect they will be capable of the same performance. Consoles, every single one of them, have been able to be pushed father than their PC equivalent hardware ever could be.
Explain this then.

The upcoming Xbox, on a quick and unoptimized port, already can do 4K 60FPS, and they're targeting higher by launch. To get 4K 60fps on PC in Gears 5, requires a 2080 Ti. A (presumably) $500ish console is doing what a $1200 video card does, never mind that that $1200 video card equals a $2000+ build by the time you spec out appropriate parts.
I really doubt the Xbox Series X is $500. Again, how do you know what they're saying is true or not? How do you know if the PC port is optimized at all? You can't take peoples words and accept them to be true. Again, Microsoft has a bias when it comes to showing how much better their console is.
If you genuinely don't understand what makes that PC you linked vastly different from the PS5 / XBSX architecture, this conversation is truly pointless.
Besides missing Ray-Tracing and RDNA1 that I already mentioned, I believe I do. Keep in mind we don't know a thing about RDNA2 and how Ray-Tracing will perform on RDNA2. Using only tflops a 5700 XT seems to be the nearest GPU to how the PS5 may perform. Hence, a 5700 isn't that much slower in that regard. A tflop isn't a tflop but I have nothing else to go with AMD's RDNA2 architecture.

Uh... what? In the line you quoted, you literally still have to do every single one of the things I mentioned, no matter who made your PC. How does having a prebuilt PC somehow absolve you from driver updates, launcher configuration, graphics settings, etc? Having someone else build your PC doesn't magically erase the complications of gaming on PC.
Both AMD and Nvidia auto update their drivers nowadays so you don't really have to do anything except reboot the PC when it reminds you to apply the update. I don't understand Launcher configuration? You mean logging into a Launcher? Graphic settings are usually auto detected in most games and the only reason to go deeper is to tweak it. Also, what's wrong with changing the graphic settings in games? Most games simplify it with Low, Normal, High, and Ultra. If you can pick a game difficulty then you can pick a graphic setting. You also mentioned managing game libraries, which is stupid. If you have Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, and Disney+ then you have the same problem, except you usually have a shortcut on the desktop to start the game which makes the process easy.

So after all this... you acknowledge that the burden of paying for a gaming PC is well beyond that of a console?
No, I mean that nobody is going to buy anything. As in no console and no PC hardware. The economy is done. Capitalism has failed. Anyone who spends money on toys is an idiot right now, unless we know what is going to be done to fix this mess.
Because that takes me right back to the very first line, there is your reason to buy a console over a PC smacking you square in the face. You are the one who made the claim that these consoles are no different than PCs and there's no logical reason to buy them.
Again, consoles have lower up front cost but over time they'll cost more than a PC. An i5 2500K with a GTX 970 back in 2014 would have cost you $800 assuming you haven't upgraded the PC since then. You'd still be playing games at 1080p 60fps to this day. A PS4 bought in 2014 would be $400 plus $60 per year for PS Plus subscription. Six years later you would have spent $360 just for online multiplayer. By now the PS4 has cost you $760, and it rarely plays games at 1080p and always 30fps. You aren't saving money by going console, instead you're spending it slowly over time on PS Plus.

You also gotta remember that a PC is more than a gaming machine. You can do other things besides games on PC. The most you can get out of a PS4 is Netflix and playing Blu-Ray movies.
You've been proven wrong, by many people in this thread.
Those people don't matter. I've seen what makes them cheer.
You may not see the potential value in consoles, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
They exist... for now. If the cost of the PS5 and Xbox Series X are too high I don't expect there to be another console generation. I've warned people here before in other threads that 2020 was going to be a depression and expensive consoles is a stupid move. I'm shocked that Sony and Microsoft haven't announced a delay on the release date of these machines due to recent events.
You are obviously well unaware of what the average video game consumer wants. It's fine that you prefer playing on PC (so do I, and almost everyone here), but don't speak as if your opinion is fact.
I'm just telling you what's the smart thing to do, not what most people want. Console systems exist because stupid people exist. Maybe if Microsoft and Sony offered Windows 10 and Linux then I'd be alright with consoles, but they don't. There's a reason why you can use Netflix on a console but not Steam or Origin.
 
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Ricky T

Limp Gawd
Joined
Nov 7, 2019
Messages
307
You really can't understand why someone would choose one of these new consoles to that RGB nerd monstrosity with 8GB of Ram, an RX 5700, and a cheapo 512 GB SSD (of which half will be used by OS and software) with no 4k BR or software optimization?

I've been around tech a long time and it is still much easier jump into a game on console than on PC even when it has an SSD. There is just always more that goes wrong with PC since you are dealing with more 'layers' - OS to drivers to Steam to Rockstar or whatever publisher stuff you have to log into. With console into is sign in and go.

That same PC you showed could be built at almost have the price if you forgo the gpu or if you travel a lot, a basic laptop.

Now you have a $400 PC that others in your family can use or a laptop you can travel with plus an easy to to use $600? console that will play games as good as anything and be a living room media center.

Sorry to break it to you, but this is reality outside your little bubble.
And it's just sad that he thinks that PC he listed specs for will be anywhere near the actual performance of the PS5.
 

DukenukemX

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
4,860
You really can't understand why someone would choose one of these new consoles to that RGB nerd monstrosity with 8GB of Ram, an RX 5700, and a cheapo 512 GB SSD (of which half will be used by OS and software) with no 4k BR or software optimization?
These new consoles? That PC wasn't meant to compete against the PS5 or Xbox Series X. That just so happens to be what you get for $700, right now. I just find it odd that the RX 5700 isn't that far off, in terms of tflops. Obviously things like RDNA2 and Ray-Tracing make a difference. How much of a difference is yet to be seen.
 

DukenukemX

Supreme [H]ardness
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And from a CPU point my overclocked 4770k cannot even maintain 60fps in some newer games and he's silly enough to claim a 2500k can? Pretty ironic from someone essentially calling all console owners stupid.
Are you running those games on Ultra settings? Also your sig says you have a 9900K, so what graphics card you have with that 4770k? Why does this forum have so many console fanboys?
 

Nightfire

2[H]4U
Joined
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Messages
2,408
Console systems exist because stupid people exist.
Your huge post can be summarized here as you are coming off as arrogant. You really are filling the PC gamer cliche.

So now the majority of people are 'stupid' because their lifestyles favor fishing, hunting, hanging with friends or whatever else with maybe a few quick matches of a first person shooter than spending time building a pc from "pc part picker" and messing with drivers and other configurations in which that PC is probably needed now more than ever since their kids need to do their homework on the damn thing.

Give it a rest.
 

Derangel

Fully [H]
Joined
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Messages
19,060
I'm just telling you what's the smart thing to do, not what most people want. Console systems exist because stupid people exist. Maybe if Microsoft and Sony offered Windows 10 and Linux then I'd be alright with consoles, but they don't. There's a reason why you can use Netflix on a console but not Steam or Origin.
Consoles exist because most people don't care to nor want to spend time fucking around on computers because they don't enjoy it. The only stupid people are the ones that use god damn video games as a way to prove their "better". You are the exact reason why PC gamers have a bad reputation.
 

Ricky T

Limp Gawd
Joined
Nov 7, 2019
Messages
307
Are you running those games on Ultra settings? Also your sig says you have a 9900K, so what graphics card you have with that 4770k? Why does this forum have so many console fanboys?
I had the 4770k before the 9900k. What GPU I had is irrelevant as I was referring to when the CPU was being the bottleneck.

It has nothing to do with being a console Fanboy but simply defending the advantages for people making ignorant comments like you have been doing. Anyone ridiculous enough to claim consoles are only for stupid people is beyond help though.
 

Red Falcon

[H]F Junkie
Joined
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Messages
10,555
These new consoles? That PC wasn't meant to compete against the PS5 or Xbox Series X. That just so happens to be what you get for $700, right now. I just find it odd that the RX 5700 isn't that far off, in terms of tflops. Obviously things like RDNA2 and Ray-Tracing make a difference. How much of a difference is yet to be seen.
Just be sure to remember that FLOPS ≠ gaming or 3D performance. ;)
Otherwise, agreed.
 

Red Falcon

[H]F Junkie
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Messages
10,555
What would be the point of buying a more powerful console if not all the games can use the hardware? This is why I said the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X is like the Sega CD and 32X. It just divides the user base and does nothing for existing games unless developers go out of their way to use it. You don't have this problem with PC.
Many games, other than some of the very early launch titles, do take advantage of the upgraded consoles.
If it says "PS4 Pro Enhanced", then it is taking advantage of the PS4 Pro's additional hardware.

Here is a list of games with feature enhancements:
https://www.androidcentral.com/every-game-getting-enhanced-treatment-ps4-pro

A few games not listed, like Bloodborne, do still take advantage of the Boost Mode feature that helps stabilize the 30fps consistency, as well as load times (assuming SSD is used).

Both AMD and Nvidia auto update their drivers nowadays so you don't really have to do anything except reboot the PC when it reminds you to apply the update.
I can't begin to tell you how many times this GPU driver auto-update bullshit has broken things, with AMD, NVIDIA, and Intel.
For the casual PC gamer who doesn't care, it's probably fine; otherwise, for someone who needs stability and specifically wants a specific driver, manual installation and upgrades are mandatory.

Heaven forbid the GPU is being used for anything outside of gaming, because auto-updating GPU drivers can break performance, stability, and even GPGPU functionality.
Again, I've seen this happen with AMD, NVIDIA, and Intel across all categories - fuck those auto-updates.

No, I mean that nobody is going to buy anything. As in no console and no PC hardware. The economy is done. Capitalism has failed. Anyone who spends money on toys is an idiot right now, unless we know what is going to be done to fix this mess.
Not to get off topic, but since Capitalism has failed, what would your alternative be?
Socialism? Communism?

If you are cool, and prepared for the dark cyberpunk future, I would highly recommend Corporatism, which is like Capitalism, but without the lube. :D
 

odditory

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
6,259
A few games not listed, like Bloodborne, do still take advantage of the Boost Mode feature that helps stabilize the 30fps consistency, as well as load times (assuming SSD is used)
God damn Bloodborne. Never got a proper 60FPS and Sony never let it out of exclusivity jail. And the Pro mode wasn't.

If there was a Bloodborne 2 then ofcourse all would be forgiven immediately and I'd pretend I never even complained about Bloodborne 1. This post would go *poof*. You talk about a sellout, you have no idea.

Alas, FROM is busy with Elden Ring for all platforms so no PS5 exclusives for a while.
 
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chameleoneel

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 15, 2005
Messages
3,290
If we are gonna talk about grabbing deals or getting keys on ebay etc ------ then it needs to be said that most people aren't paying $59 for their 1 year PSN subscriptions. Whether it be from black friday deals, other holiday deals, other deals/promotions, or yes, even Ebay. There are also deals/promotions which giver you say 3 months free, etc. Or X months for an ultra low price. If you keep even reasonable track of such things, you can accumulate a fairly substantial amount of months of PSN/XBL time, for a lot less than MSRP.

Console gaming is an entirely different universe of ease of purchase for the hardware and ease of use of that hardware. You buy the console from one place and then play it. That PC parts list has us buying hardware from 5 different places. Individual pieces of hardware, which we have to put together. Individual pieces, all of which have a chance at failing. And at least half of my builds over my life time, have had one part require RMA. Whereas ----- I have personally never experienced a problem with a console, inside of 5 years of use. Many people have. But, considering my PC part failure experiences: it feels like relatively better odds with 1 console as a whole unit Vs numerous PC parts for a build. And if I did need an RMA on a console. Well, you just RMA one thing.
 

Derangel

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Messages
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God damn Bloodborne. Never got a proper 60FPS and Sony never let it out of exclusivity jail. And the Pro mode wasn't.

If there was a Bloodborne 2 then ofcourse all would be forgiven immediately and I'd pretend I never even complained about Bloodborne 1. This post would go *poof*. You talk about a sellout, you have no idea.

Alas, FROM is busy with Elden Ring for all platforms so no PS5 exclusives for a while.
From is a pretty big company these days (nearly 300 employees apparently) so they could theoretically be working on more than one game, but even if they are it would still be a while. Assuming, they even want to make a sequel to Bloodborne.
 

odditory

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
6,259
From is a pretty big company these days (nearly 300 employees apparently) so they could theoretically be working on more than one game, but even if they are it would still be a while. Assuming, they even want to make a sequel to Bloodborne.
True dat. Although 280 of them could just be hot receptionists. You know Japanese men and how it goes over there.

That said, and at the risk of coming across...indelicate, the idea of an Armored Souls makes me tingle where the bathing suit covers. A pure Armored Souls mecha game probably wouldn't be a big seller. But some hybrid scheme with mechs instead of medieval dudes could be something.

FROM has become like your favorite band (in your case I'm guessing Coldplay just based on all the evidence) - they're really tired of playing the hits, and just want to take things in a new direction.

Narrator: "But that direction was right off a cliff"
 

Derangel

Fully [H]
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Messages
19,060
True dat. Although 280 of them could just be receptionists. You know Japanese men and how it goes over there.

That said, and at the risk of coming across...indelicate, the idea of an Armored Souls makes me tingle where the bathing suit covers.

A pure Armored Souls mecha game probably wouldn't be a big seller. But some hybrid scheme with mechs instead of medieval dudes could be something.

These guys are like your favorite band (in your case I'm guessing Coldplay just based on all the evidence) and they're really tired of playing the hits without end, just wanting to take things in a new direction.
I would love to see a new Armored Core, though I've kind of given up on hoping for that by this point. If it ever does happen I'll be glad to lose to my shit over the announcement.

Tarja era Nightwish or Blind Guardian, actually. I have no idea what songs Coldplay even sings, I've heard the name but that's about all the attention I've paid.
 

DukenukemX

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
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Messages
4,860
I had the 4770k before the 9900k. What GPU I had is irrelevant as I was referring to when the CPU was being the bottleneck.
It's very relatvent, as well as what games were the issue. A 4770k with a GTX 660 is a big different from a GTX 970.
It has nothing to do with being a console Fanboy but simply defending the advantages for people making ignorant comments like you have been doing. Anyone ridiculous enough to claim consoles are only for stupid people is beyond help though.
Seems like this forum has more people who defend consoles than PC. My point is that PC is superior to console in every conceivable way. The counter arguments against PC is based on stupidity, as in the average person is so stupid that they can't possibly use a PC to play games.

I can't begin to tell you how many times this GPU driver auto-update bullshit has broken things, with AMD, NVIDIA, and Intel.
For the casual PC gamer who doesn't care, it's probably fine; otherwise, for someone who needs stability and specifically wants a specific driver, manual installation and upgrades are mandatory.

Heaven forbid the GPU is being used for anything outside of gaming, because auto-updating GPU drivers can break performance, stability, and even GPGPU functionality.
Again, I've seen this happen with AMD, NVIDIA, and Intel across all categories - fuck those auto-updates.
I agree, in that driver updates tend to be a double edge sword, but this is updates in general. Updating Windows can break PCs. Updating PS4's can break things as well. I'm not excusing AMD and Nvidia for their shitty driver updates, but this is mostly an issue in quality control over updates in general.

Not to get off topic, but since Capitalism has failed, what would your alternative be?
Socialism? Communism?

If you are cool, and prepared for the dark cyberpunk future, I would highly recommend Corporatism, which is like Capitalism, but without the lube. :D
I don't know. If anything it might be Capitalism++. Yanis Varoufakis explains it better. You know, the guy that used to work for Valve. First, capitalism needs to be stabilized and then we can move to a new system.

 
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DukenukemX

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
4,860
God damn Bloodborne. Never got a proper 60FPS and Sony never let it out of exclusivity jail. And the Pro mode wasn't.

If there was a Bloodborne 2 then ofcourse all would be forgiven immediately and I'd pretend I never even complained about Bloodborne 1. This post would go *poof*. You talk about a sellout, you have no idea.

Alas, FROM is busy with Elden Ring for all platforms so no PS5 exclusives for a while.
FROM software also never properly patched Dark Souls on PC and ended up releasing Dark Souls Remastered which is a properly patched and fixed version.
 

DukenukemX

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
4,860
If we are gonna talk about grabbing deals or getting keys on ebay etc ------ then it needs to be said that most people aren't paying $59 for their 1 year PSN subscriptions. Whether it be from black friday deals, other holiday deals, other deals/promotions, or yes, even Ebay. There are also deals/promotions which giver you say 3 months free, etc. Or X months for an ultra low price. If you keep even reasonable track of such things, you can accumulate a fairly substantial amount of months of PSN/XBL time, for a lot less than MSRP.
If I go all Ebay then I'd buy used GPU's like a GTX 1070 or a Vega 56. My PC is comprised of mostly used parts off Ebay. The 2700X was $180 off Ebay used. My Vega 56 was $212 off Ebay used. My motherboard was $60 open box item. The 1TB SSD was new from MicroCenter for $120. The case was $40 and the PSU is a Seasonic 550W that I paid $50, both bought from NewEgg. The ram is new from NewEgg as well but I paid like $40 when the ram prices dropped rapidly. I do have a water cooling loop that I build like 7 years ago that I still use today, with the exception of the water block because AM3 doesn't fit AM4. All of my water loop is directly from China, but I did buy the water block recently and that was $40 off Ebay. Also a couple of old hard drives, both 2TB that I paid $50 each when new. I was using a pirated version of Windows 10 but I bought the cheap Ebay key to avoid problems about 2 years ago.
Console gaming is an entirely different universe of ease of purchase for the hardware and ease of use of that hardware. You buy the console from one place and then play it. That PC parts list has us buying hardware from 5 different places. Individual pieces of hardware, which we have to put together. Individual pieces, all of which have a chance at failing.

And at least half of my builds over my life time, have had one part require RMA. Whereas ----- I have personally never experienced a problem with a console, inside of 5 years of use. Many people have. But, considering my PC part failure experiences: it feels like relatively better odds with 1 console as a whole unit Vs numerous PC parts for a build. And if I did need an RMA on a console. Well, you just RMA one thing.
Assuming the console doesn't break, which it certainly does. Remember the infamous Red Ring of Death? I do enjoy watching people like this guy fix PS4's because I was thinking of doing the same myself. One thing to remember is that some parts of the console are not interchangeable and therefore if that one part breaks then the whole console is for the junk. This is mostly used for anti-piracy reasons. At least if a part fails in a PC then you just replace that part and not the entire PC.

I can't say I'm not without problems with my PC's because I've had my fair share of issues. My old FX 8350 system with a Gigabyte motherboard ran fine for 5 years until it started to boil my coolant. I have since replaced that motherboard with a MSI and that's been fine, but it still happened and I can't RMA that motherboard after 5 years. My Ryzen system when it had the 1700 as my main PC was using used ram from Ebay, because this was when ram was super expensive. After 1 year of trying to figure out the problem I came to the conclusion the Corsair ram was bad and I RMA'd it and now no problems, but every test I threw at it shows that the ram was fine.

I haven't had a console issue free life either, despite that my console days are over. My Xbox 360 did have the RROD but I fixed it with a heat gun. Yes I know that's a temporary fix but it still works, even though I haven't touched it in 10 years. I bought my nephew a Nintendo Switch that I modded ;) and I took it apart to enhance the cooling to prevent the warping of plastic that was staring to happen. Also the Joy Cons started to have the drift issue which I corrected by spraying Silicone spray under the rubber seal in the analog sticks. Both Joy Cons had this problem but the left one was much worse.
 
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