everything is a little washed out on both sides of that screen; something like not enough processed, flat raw file
unfortunately its visible even from 1,5 - 2m.its terrible for photo viewing and editing, its ok for games and movies
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The perfect 4K 43” monitor! Soon! Asus XG438Q ROG
- Thread starter Omegaferrari
- Start date
everything is a little washed out on both sides of that screen; something like not enough processed, flat raw file
unfortunately its visible even from 1,5 - 2m.its terrible for photo viewing and editing, its ok for games and movies
elvn
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BGR text segment is informative.. and disappointing.
pasted at that timestamp
It's not a VA limitation it's the subpixel layout of BGR.
"Using cleartype in windows can help mitigate the issue somewhat"
".. but it can never be resolved fully so what you're left with is slightly blurry and odd looking text"
"For gaming it's not a big deal at all. "
"It's also not as much of an issue with larger fonts so if you're using 150% scale or more it tends to hide the problem but if you're planning on using this as a productivity monitor at it's native resolution scale the BGR layout could annoy you."
--------
"Had asus rotated the panel 180degrees making it RGB it wouldn't have been an issue."
Could you potentially spin the monitor upside down on a VESA mount for RGB somehow?
pasted at that timestamp
It's not a VA limitation it's the subpixel layout of BGR.
"Using cleartype in windows can help mitigate the issue somewhat"
".. but it can never be resolved fully so what you're left with is slightly blurry and odd looking text"
"For gaming it's not a big deal at all. "
"It's also not as much of an issue with larger fonts so if you're using 150% scale or more it tends to hide the problem but if you're planning on using this as a productivity monitor at it's native resolution scale the BGR layout could annoy you."
--------
"Had asus rotated the panel 180degrees making it RGB it wouldn't have been an issue."
Could you potentially spin the monitor upside down on a VESA mount for RGB somehow?
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shadow2761
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Yup, black smearing an issue.
elvn
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---------------
As a comparison, from the tftcentral gk850g VA review: (https://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/lg_32gk850g.htm#detailed_response)
"The average G2G figure was measured at 8.3ms which was good for a VA panel. In fact it would have been even better at about 6.4ms G2G if we didn't have those few particularly slow changes from black > grey. As is common on most VA panels, there are some slow changes from black, which results in practice with some dark smearing on moving content. It's less noticeable at this maximum 'faster' response time setting but it's still there sadly. This mode has at least eliminated some of the slow middle G2G transitions you get in the 'fast' and 'normal' response time modes which is good news. In the best case the response time actually reached down to 2.8ms G2G which was impressive. The quoted 5ms figure is actually conservative from LG if you want to consider the best case measurement."
"There was very little overshoot at all. Some moderate overshoot started to creep in on a couple of transitions, those between similar light grey and white shades. It was not particularly high and we didn't really notice any issues with it in practice to be honest. If you find it troublesome at all, you can always drop down to the 'fast' setting. As a reminder, we felt that 120Hz was the optimal refresh rate on this screen before additional smearing started to be introduced for settings higher than that."
-------------------
Asus xg438q rog is 8.7ms average .. from the Youtube asus xg438q rog review linked above:
The response time on the GK850G is about 8.3 average due to the black transitions on the worst end. I don't get bad black smearing on my gk850g so it could come down to the quality of the overdrive implementation on the asus.
EDIT: from the video review of the xg438Q, it's average from a dark level only test are worst of the ones he reviewed, at 18.31 ms. The gk850f is 11.28 and the msi optix is 9.7.
From the tftcentral GK850G review again as a comaprison:
"We have provided a comparison of the LG 32GK850G against many other screens that we have tested. The screen performed better than most other VA technology displays listed here. With an average G2G of 8.3ms, it was faster than the recent competing Samsung C32HG70 model, which measured in at 13ms G2G average but also showed a lot more slow transitions from dark to light shades. There was less noticeable dark smearing as a result on the LG. It was a little better for gaming than the Asus ROG Strix XG35VQ overall as well, which struggled even more with transitions from black to dark grey, and also showed some high levels of overshoot in practice. "
-----
The more you are ranging into 100fps and 120fps ranges in your variable hz, the less sample and hold blur (40% reduction at 100fps solid, 50% reduction at 120fps solid) so the more obvious any of the worst transitions black smearing can be. Lower frame rate's smearing sample-and-hold blur should overshadow black smearing and I suspect a lot of people would be running lower rates at 4k resolution, at least on the most demanding games. Personally I dial in 100fps average or better on a high hz monitor, otherwise I'm not getting any appreciable benefits out of the higher hz.
As a comparison, from the tftcentral gk850g VA review: (https://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/lg_32gk850g.htm#detailed_response)
"The average G2G figure was measured at 8.3ms which was good for a VA panel. In fact it would have been even better at about 6.4ms G2G if we didn't have those few particularly slow changes from black > grey. As is common on most VA panels, there are some slow changes from black, which results in practice with some dark smearing on moving content. It's less noticeable at this maximum 'faster' response time setting but it's still there sadly. This mode has at least eliminated some of the slow middle G2G transitions you get in the 'fast' and 'normal' response time modes which is good news. In the best case the response time actually reached down to 2.8ms G2G which was impressive. The quoted 5ms figure is actually conservative from LG if you want to consider the best case measurement."
"There was very little overshoot at all. Some moderate overshoot started to creep in on a couple of transitions, those between similar light grey and white shades. It was not particularly high and we didn't really notice any issues with it in practice to be honest. If you find it troublesome at all, you can always drop down to the 'fast' setting. As a reminder, we felt that 120Hz was the optimal refresh rate on this screen before additional smearing started to be introduced for settings higher than that."
-------------------
Asus xg438q rog is 8.7ms average .. from the Youtube asus xg438q rog review linked above:
The response time on the GK850G is about 8.3 average due to the black transitions on the worst end. I don't get bad black smearing on my gk850g so it could come down to the quality of the overdrive implementation on the asus.
EDIT: from the video review of the xg438Q, it's average from a dark level only test are worst of the ones he reviewed, at 18.31 ms. The gk850f is 11.28 and the msi optix is 9.7.
From the tftcentral GK850G review again as a comaprison:
"We have provided a comparison of the LG 32GK850G against many other screens that we have tested. The screen performed better than most other VA technology displays listed here. With an average G2G of 8.3ms, it was faster than the recent competing Samsung C32HG70 model, which measured in at 13ms G2G average but also showed a lot more slow transitions from dark to light shades. There was less noticeable dark smearing as a result on the LG. It was a little better for gaming than the Asus ROG Strix XG35VQ overall as well, which struggled even more with transitions from black to dark grey, and also showed some high levels of overshoot in practice. "
-----
The more you are ranging into 100fps and 120fps ranges in your variable hz, the less sample and hold blur (40% reduction at 100fps solid, 50% reduction at 120fps solid) so the more obvious any of the worst transitions black smearing can be. Lower frame rate's smearing sample-and-hold blur should overshadow black smearing and I suspect a lot of people would be running lower rates at 4k resolution, at least on the most demanding games. Personally I dial in 100fps average or better on a high hz monitor, otherwise I'm not getting any appreciable benefits out of the higher hz.
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bananadude
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It won't be. I bet money on it... not outside of differences that occur panel to panel anyway.
Because they know most consumers don't read reviews and will be lured by the marketing. Asus couldn't care less. Despite what they want you to believe, monitors (and most tech) aren't designed by enthusiasts who care about the end user's needs and requirements... it's men/women in suits looking at the cost of production, what they can sell it for and how much profit they can make.
l88bastard
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So to summarize the review: HOT FUCKING GARBAGE!!!!
BGR pixels ROFL these manufactures are not even trying anymore.
BGR pixels ROFL these manufactures are not even trying anymore.
Armenius
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I think I read at one point that it started as a simple assembly process of putting the panel in upside-down. Yes, it could be as stupid as that and they don't want to retool their assembly lines to do it correctly, and for some reason it mutated into the foul industry practice of having all large displays assembled this way forevermore.
This is probably true. Most of these 43" and larger panels were either originally intended as TVs or are built on lines intended for TVs. subpixel arrangement doesn't matter for a TV so these panels/assembly lines might have been designed where installing the panel upside down is more economical. Maybe the leads for the panel all come off the "top" but by installing upside down (in a BGR orientation) they can minimize the wire runs. Or maybe the tooling for the assembly line is just set up to install the panels upside down like you suggest.
I haven't experienced BGR pixel layout before but I remember from previous panel reviews that this is definitely a no-go. It's almost like running a panel at its non-native resolution so the image is always slightly blurred or out of focus if I remember correctly (most noticeable with text, as stated in the review).
Lateralus
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Well that stinks. Good clarification on the issue. Let's hope that not all of the 43" monitors will be BGR, but it sounds like they very well could be if the manufacturers are sourcing from the same panels (which wouldn't be surprising, as I doubt there are many). It won't be a big deal for everyone, but unless I was going to use this as a gaming monitor *only* (or use scaling, as HU pointed out) then I don't think I'd want to live with the reduced text quality in apps.
Always a compromise...
Always a compromise...
tchalikias
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BGR subpixel arrangement was a given - this is yet another TV panel jerry rigged into a monitor. Unfortunately there exist zero RGB 4k panels over 32" today.
And while Windows Cleartype calibration does mitigate most of the issues (at least OS-wide), a lot of older apps don't adhere to it and end up looking bad.
And while Windows Cleartype calibration does mitigate most of the issues (at least OS-wide), a lot of older apps don't adhere to it and end up looking bad.
Gatecrasher3000
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Seems like this monitor is really only designed for gaming. Not a problem for those that use their systems mainly for gaming.
But if you're a content creator, then look into a IPS.
But if you're a content creator, then look into a IPS.
BGR text segment is informative.. and disappointing.
pasted at that timestamp
It's not a VA limitation it's the subpixel layout of BGR.
"Using cleartype in windows can help mitigate the issue somewhat"
".. but it can never be resolved fully so what you're left with is slightly blurry and odd looking text"
"For gaming it's not a big deal at all. "
"It's also not as much of an issue with larger fonts so if you're using 150% scale or more it tends to hide the problem but if you're planning on using this as a productivity monitor at it's native resolution scale the BGR layout could annoy you."
--------
"Had asus rotated the panel 180degrees making it RGB it wouldn't have been an issue."
Could you potentially spin the monitor upside down on a VESA mount for RGB somehow?
You probably could, just mount it upside down on a VESA mount. It would put the display controls in an awkward position and you’d have cables poking out of weird places but otherwise it would probably work. The display seems to have cooling vents on top and bottom.
They went to such lengths to make a good display on paper then do things like these that diminish its value. I tried to look into if MacOS still has problems with BGR but could only find out that it no longer uses subpixel antialiasing yet many suggest turning it on via console for non-retina screens (basically anything that is not Apple or 5K). I need to do some tests on my work 1440p screen next week.
I guess the iPad handles this just fine by having a screen that requires no subpixel antialiasing so no matter the orientation it looks the same?
MistaSparkul
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The majority of people looking to buy this monitor don't just want some big 4k gaming only screen, they want a good productivity monitor and 4k spread out across 43 inches is a decent balance between screen size and resolution. Too bad this monitor is pretty much trash for productivity if you're gonna have poor text clarity in the end. It's like the reviewer said, if you are gonna be paying $1100 then the monitor should actually be good and not just win by default for being the first to offer 4k120Hz.
bananadude
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Exactly. The 120Hz isn't worth the premium, not given its other GLARING issues that ruin the experience for any other use case... and this is a PC monitor FFS! I don't know anyone (who isn't a child/teenager anyway) who owns a PC that doesn't do other things and require some level of productivity from it... and this monitor compromises that significantly. People who ONLY game and NOTHING else have consoles!! Plus it's not even like this is a killer gaming monitor, it's average at best. Asus clearly don't know their consumer and are relying on customer ignorance when it comes to selling this. Very poor show really, but it's also obviously a limitation of the technology, and no such panel exists that will do what we want, not at the right price anyway. The long wait continues...
elvn
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I have two 43" tvs as monitors in my big desktop monitor array.
According to rtings.com reviews...
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/tcl/s-series-s405-4k-2018
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TCL 43 S405 is RGB from the looks of it http://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/tv/tcl/p607/p607-pixels-gray-large.jpg
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/nu6900
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The samsung NU6900 is BGR , at least from their photo: https://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/tv/samsung/nu6900/nu6900-pixels-large.jpg
However, they go on to say that the 49" version of the TCL S405 exhibits crosshatching not the 43.
Having used both of the aforementioned 43" TVs for some time now, I don't notice any bad text on the samsung at 100% scaling from 3' away, using cleartype in windows 10. The text on my 32" GK850G is more jumbo and soft looking by comparison and the LG lacks a sharpness setting in the OSD while both of the 43": TVs have a sharpness setting in their OSDs. However even the 32gk850g looks usable as long as you don't use too small of a font (scaling on the fly in web browser and 3rd party file manager if necessary) -but I wouldn't call it's text as sharp. More like non native text or an old 1080p 27" monitor's soft text look. Using nvidia freestyle (an easy mode reshade overlay of settings sliders in the nvidia experience suite) I can add a sharpness filter in games on the 32" LG, but that doesn't work on the desktop.
According to rtings.com reviews...
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/tcl/s-series-s405-4k-2018
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TCL 43 S405 is RGB from the looks of it http://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/tv/tcl/p607/p607-pixels-gray-large.jpg
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/nu6900
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The samsung NU6900 is BGR , at least from their photo: https://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/tv/samsung/nu6900/nu6900-pixels-large.jpg
However, they go on to say that the 49" version of the TCL S405 exhibits crosshatching not the 43.
Having used both of the aforementioned 43" TVs for some time now, I don't notice any bad text on the samsung at 100% scaling from 3' away, using cleartype in windows 10. The text on my 32" GK850G is more jumbo and soft looking by comparison and the LG lacks a sharpness setting in the OSD while both of the 43": TVs have a sharpness setting in their OSDs. However even the 32gk850g looks usable as long as you don't use too small of a font (scaling on the fly in web browser and 3rd party file manager if necessary) -but I wouldn't call it's text as sharp. More like non native text or an old 1080p 27" monitor's soft text look. Using nvidia freestyle (an easy mode reshade overlay of settings sliders in the nvidia experience suite) I can add a sharpness filter in games on the 32" LG, but that doesn't work on the desktop.
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Gatecrasher3000
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The long wait continues...
Yeahhh, but I feel that 2020 will be the year of 120hz 4K options, and hopefully in 2020 Nvidia/AND will release some single GPUs that can actually push those specs at max settings, so the timing works out in that regard.
Actually, unless it has a huge number of zones, and a good algorithm, I would much rather just skip local dimming. I would rather just get used the native contrast, than deal with the artifacts. Here the subtitle blooming lights up the actors face like a flashlight. Flashlight on, Flashlight off, flashlight on, flashlight off... It's a lot more annoying that just getting used to the lower native contrast.
shadow2761
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The LG 38GL950 is coming out here next week.
Do I sell this Asus monitor and get that or hold onto it until something better comes out at the end of this year?
I am a bit put off by that review saying it has the worst black to grey transitions he has recorded. I can feel it too when I game, and I am using level 4 OD.
Other than the black smearing I do think it is a nice monitor. Contrast is pretty good.
Do I sell this Asus monitor and get that or hold onto it until something better comes out at the end of this year?
I am a bit put off by that review saying it has the worst black to grey transitions he has recorded. I can feel it too when I game, and I am using level 4 OD.
Other than the black smearing I do think it is a nice monitor. Contrast is pretty good.
MistaSparkul
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Can't you just return it? Didn't seem like you bought it very long ago.
shadow2761
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not sure, I don't think we can? I don't think we get laws like in the US where you can return a product after purchasing if you don't like it.
EDIT:
Actually yes we are eligible for return within 30 days, but are charged a 15% restocking fee. Just waiting to hear back from the seller to confirm this.
So, would you rekon I would be better off with the LG38GL950?
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MistaSparkul
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Hard to say. That monitor uses an edge lit IPS panel which doesn't come anywhere near the image quality of OLED. Plus it is pretty massive so it might end up having some insane IPS glow on the sides. The trade off for it would be no black smearing and an even higher 175Hz refresh rate pair up with real gsync. You would just have to try it out for yourself.
shadow2761
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Ahh man, so it seems like I can't win today. Yeah, I can't really stand the blurr/smearing. Its my first gaming monitor ever, so yeah, I am not use to this stuff.
Maybe I should really get the Oled C9?
Maybe I should really get the Oled C9?
SwissDestiny
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Microcenter has dropped the price to $999 though not in stock. Perhaps ASUS realizes they might have a stinker on their hands based on reviews/comments so far.
bananadude
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I don't know what they were thinking tbh... I guess there were technical limitations, but they really shouldn't have even bothered releasing this. PC users (for the most part) NEED productivity, and lack of suitability for desktop use has been a known issue with other 43" monitors in the past. I don't think they did their research, but perhaps assumed gamers would lap this up... even in that regard though this monitor is very much flawed. I don't know why someone would spend so much on this PURELY for gaming, it's just not worth it, especially when a monitor half the price wipes the floor with it!? I guess if you simply MUST have this size and the high refresh, it ticks those boxes, but compromises you everywhere else.
I'm quite sure the Acer CG437K will have the same panel config, but even if it doesn't I can't see how it's going to improve on the other obvious issues this panel has, unless they've somehow sourced an entirely different one that's miles better... but I think this is rather unlikely.
Gatecrasher3000
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Exactly, "its a big 43", now slap a 'gaming' sticker on the side and we got ourselves a winner here gentlemen"
Since the Acer will most likely have the panel found in the XG43UQ (if it’s a different model rather than just an improved backlight) it should give us some indication how that might turn out. I’m a bit tempted to just order the Acer just to see if it’s better. To me just turning the panel around for RGB and figuring out the placement for the internals should not be that difficult but I don’t make displays so...
The XG438Q is starting to feel like ASUS gauging the response from reviewers and potential buyers or else it’s just incompetence. Ideally this would give them time to fix these issues for the UQ model. Whether using a higher quality controller or tweaking the overdrive algorithm for more stable results. Likewise panel quality might get better by the time the UQ is out but that might be wishful thinking.
I hope my local store puts the XG438Q on display so I can evaluate it in person without resorting to buying and returning it.
bananadude
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I'm sure there is a good reason... either cost or technical issues in doing so. It's what many other 43" TV's/monitors have done, so there HAS to be a reason for it. If it were that easy to just flip it round, I cannot fathom why they wouldn't.
You may be right on the Acer, but I will not hold my breath... hopefully not long to find out anyway.
Gatecrasher3000
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Haha after these two reviews, I think this thread is going to come to a grinding halt.
MistaSparkul
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So much for the perfect 4k monitor
elvn
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displays are going to change in the next year+ if you can wait it out.
I'm probably going to stick with what I have for now until hdmi 2.1 120hz vrr qft tvs and monitors are out and nvidia releases a die shrink gpu with hdmi 2.1 output.
I was 50/50 about getting one of these since it would fit my array perfectly even if gpu power at 4k (with enough fps to fill 120hz) isn't really capable. A big part of it hinged on keeping the black smearing as minimal as it is on my gk850g. Considering all of the compromises overall I can't really justify paying this much just to jump from 32" to 43" (at much lower fps) when I can put it toward a 2020 or 2020+ hdmi 2.1 monitor or TV (hopefully with FALD) and much higher hdr color brightness.
It's too bad they don't make something like this for gamers at 43" for $2000 - $2500 instead of what I'd consider wasted desktop real estate and gaming viewport size at 32 inch 4k for $4000. https://www.tftcentral.co.uk/blog/a...vrr-1152-zone-miniled-backlight-and-hdr-1400/
I'm probably going to stick with what I have for now until hdmi 2.1 120hz vrr qft tvs and monitors are out and nvidia releases a die shrink gpu with hdmi 2.1 output.
I was 50/50 about getting one of these since it would fit my array perfectly even if gpu power at 4k (with enough fps to fill 120hz) isn't really capable. A big part of it hinged on keeping the black smearing as minimal as it is on my gk850g. Considering all of the compromises overall I can't really justify paying this much just to jump from 32" to 43" (at much lower fps) when I can put it toward a 2020 or 2020+ hdmi 2.1 monitor or TV (hopefully with FALD) and much higher hdr color brightness.
It's too bad they don't make something like this for gamers at 43" for $2000 - $2500 instead of what I'd consider wasted desktop real estate and gaming viewport size at 32 inch 4k for $4000. https://www.tftcentral.co.uk/blog/a...vrr-1152-zone-miniled-backlight-and-hdr-1400/
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MistaSparkul
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STILL no hdmi 2.1 ports on that 2020 Asus monitor??
sigh...I'm fairly confident Nvidia will skip HDMI 2.1 next generation or drag it out as long as humanly possible. It's DIRECT competition to their G-Sync ecosystem. I know personally I'm dropping my current G-Sync display and any future G-Sync purchases if I can get a 32'+ 4k 120hz VRR HDMI 2.1 monitor/TV/OLED instead.
MistaSparkul
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They could simply have HDMI 2.1 but not support HDMI VRR, and tbh I'd probably accept that as a start if I can at least get 4k120Hz on an LG OLED even if it means going back to having some screen tearing.
elvn
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They could end up falling behind the next gen of consoles in some respects if they wait too long..
Well even now the xbox one supports VRR on some samsung TVs (the TV's themselves support 120hz 1080p and 120hz 1440p already they just lack hdmi 2.1 for 4k 120hz) The next gen of consoles is supposed to support 120hz 4k.
Microsoft's next Xbox and Sony's PlayStation 5 are going to play games super smoothly, but you might need a new TV to make the most them
https://www.businessinsider.com/best-tvs-for-next-xbox-project-scarlett-playstation-5-120hz-2019-6
------------------------
We are in a middle ground right now due to hdmi 2.1 rollout time constraints and product roadmap. (end quote)
Well even now the xbox one supports VRR on some samsung TVs (the TV's themselves support 120hz 1080p and 120hz 1440p already they just lack hdmi 2.1 for 4k 120hz) The next gen of consoles is supposed to support 120hz 4k.
Microsoft's next Xbox and Sony's PlayStation 5 are going to play games super smoothly, but you might need a new TV to make the most them
https://www.businessinsider.com/best-tvs-for-next-xbox-project-scarlett-playstation-5-120hz-2019-6
------------------------
We are in a middle ground right now due to hdmi 2.1 rollout time constraints and product roadmap. (end quote)