The Patriot Act May Be Dead Forever

Iceshot said:
Lets assume for a moment that this goes the best way it possibly could and the patriot act is not extended in any way at all. That would be great but.....

Whats to stop the NSA/CIA/Military from simply taking the now "illegal" programs like Prism and continuing them in the dark by classifying them at a level no one in the House, Senate, or White House has? Happens all the time and is a "I win" trump card used by the Military and spook agencies for decades...

Until we dramatically rework our classification system making it impossible for there to be clearance levels that go above Congress and the President, the Military and alphabet agencies will continue to do whatever the hell they please behind the Iron Curtain of Clearance.

Sadly, I feel the Patriot Act going away legally is nothing more than a red herring...
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? This is not how classification authority works.

All classification authority resides in the President of the United States, who is Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. Original classification authority is delegated to people filling specific billets or posts, and it is delegated by (and can be revoked by) the President. Subsequent classification is of a derivative nature - that is, a document containing information derived from a classified document should - in most cases - be classified to at least the level at which the source document is classified, or else sanitized to protect sources, methods, and procedures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13526

The "White House" is often used as a colloquialism for the Executive Office of the President, which is comprised of the President and numerous levels of staffers, many of whom don't hold clearance. Just because the staff doesn't all know doesn't mean the President doesn't know, and one should not conflate the two.
 
Lunas said:
well if it dies a new one can be drafted and passed so it may not be a dead forever thing...
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Not in this environment.

TPA was force fed into law during a time when people would have signed anything.

I can only hope we are a lot wiser now.
 
The PATRIOT act is dead!






Long live the PATRIOT act!



;) It will come back, just under a new name but probably less power. They'll amend it to basically give them the same or more as the PATRIOT act was.
 
Phoenix333 said:
The one person in congress that's actively doing something to kill the NSA domestic espionage program, and he "sucks the most"? What's your position on this issue?
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I'm just curious. Why do any of you think that the end of the Patriot Act will end the Bulk Meta-Data Collection Program?

I know, I know, so many people have told us that the Patriot Act and particularly, section 2015 of that Act, is what authorized the program.

If Section 215 authorized the Program, then why did President Bush have to sign a Letter Authorizing it under the War Powers Act?

Did you guys forget about the letter? :(
 
Iceshot said:
Lets assume for a moment that this goes the best way it possibly could and the patriot act is not extended in any way at all. That would be great but.....

Whats to stop the NSA/CIA/Military from simply taking the now "illegal" programs like Prism and continuing them in the dark by classifying them at a level no one in the House, Senate, or White House has? Happens all the time and is a "I win" trump card used by the Military and spook agencies for decades...

Until we dramatically rework our classification system making it impossible for there to be clearance levels that go above Congress and the President, the Military and alphabet agencies will continue to do whatever the hell they please behind the Iron Curtain of Clearance.

Sadly, I feel the Patriot Act going away legally is nothing more than a red herring...
Click to expand...


Because there are only three levels of classification, Confidential, Secret, and Top Secret, thousands have a Top Secret Clearance. After that there is nothing more in place except what they call compartmentalization which is based on "Need to know". If you need to know it you get access too it.

I know this doesn't matter to you, but like details. You are correct and incorrect all at the same time. The Patriot Act Allowed many many things and many of them will go away for now with the end of that legislation.

But the Bulk Meta-Data Program probably will not go away because I think it was a false flag that the Patriot Act and Section 215 was what allowed that Program. President Bush's War powers Letter is what allowed that program and I do believe President Obama left it in effect.

So Rand Paul put on a great show, He fooled so many of you for sure. The one big reason for killing the Patriot Act will probably have no effect on it at all. But whatever.

When Congress Passed the Patriot Act I had concerns but I decided that as long as we still maintained the power to undo it, then it was a risk worth taking. Over ten years has passed and I see nothing wrong with letting the Patriot Act expire, it was a hasty piece of legislation. We have had more then enough time to revisit that Bill, remake it into something that works well given all the things we have learned in the meantime.
 
Good thing the PATRIOT Act was there to save us from the ~100 or so school shootings since September 11 as well as the Boston Marathon bombing.

Oh wait? It didn't save us from any of that? Huh. Better start allowing the government to search any building/residence with no reason because clearly we aren't trying hard enough.
 
i960 said:
And the phone records collection is honestly the part I have the least problem with. All of the other NSA spying programs are significantly worse.
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Which other programs were worse may I ask?
 
dandragonrage said:
Good thing the PATRIOT Act was there to save us from the ~100 or so school shootings since September 11 as well as the Boston Marathon bombing.

Oh wait? It didn't save us from any of that? Huh. Better start allowing the government to search any building/residence with no reason because clearly we aren't trying hard enough.
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Ever watch Person of Interest? That technology wasn't implemented in the government sector. It was too powerful.

It has saved us from some incidents. But, due to secrecy they can't say what those were. So, they could be blowing smoke, as that's a tactic that even toddlers know about. Yea, I did that. Proof? Nah, I can't say.
 
dandragonrage said:
Good thing the PATRIOT Act was there to save us from the ~100 or so school shootings since September 11 as well as the Boston Marathon bombing.

Oh wait? It didn't save us from any of that? Huh. Better start allowing the government to search any building/residence with no reason because clearly we aren't trying hard enough.
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Don't worry, President Lindsey Graham will save us from the scary monsters.
 
Ur_Mom said:
Ever watch Person of Interest? That technology wasn't implemented in the government sector. It was too powerful.

It has saved us from some incidents. But, due to secrecy they can't say what those were. So, they could be blowing smoke, as that's a tactic that even toddlers know about. Yea, I did that. Proof? Nah, I can't say.
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I haven't watched that.

Allowing police to search any residence at any time would save us from some incidents. Random checkpoints all over the place would, too. Forcing everyone to wear GPS units that can be tracked by the government also would. So would just throwing everyone in jail as a preemptive measure. Might as well just do all that stuff.
 
dandragonrage said:
Good thing the PATRIOT Act was there to save us from the ~100 or so school shootings since September 11 as well as the Boston Marathon bombing.

Oh wait? It didn't save us from any of that? Huh. Better start allowing the government to search any building/residence with no reason because clearly we aren't trying hard enough.
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Dan, the Patriot Act made changes to allow LE to more effectively go after terrorists, in particular, foreign terrorists. It doesn't work so well against the home grown variety or against the simple sociopath.

You know, one could argue that since the Patriot Act didn't stop such things, that in fact, it wasn't so intrusive after all? I mean, if the Patriot Act and the NSA's all pervasive spying is so damned intrusive then how could all this shit still happen?

We know the answer and the answer is in the middle somewhere. The Program is effective, I'd bet my right nut that the program was responsible for the FBI catching on to that chick in Colorado who tried to go help ISIS and they saved her from that. I'll be there is so much more good that has come from it. At the same time, it's caused a lot of damage and distrust, hell, even unreasoning paranoia.

But again, I think the Patriot Act was poorly written and hit way too many bases. Time for it to go, time for better laws to be written. Our Human Intelligence Capabilities are much better then they were pre-9/11. Maybe they can make up the difference in other ways.

There's more then one way to skin a cat. Sorry to burst you guys' bubble about the Program tho.
 
lcpiper said:
You know, one could argue that since the Patriot Act didn't stop such things, that in fact, it wasn't so intrusive after all? I mean, if the Patriot Act and the NSA's all pervasive spying is so damned intrusive then how could all this shit still happen?
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One could, perhaps, admit that life is full of dangers and no government programs can ever stop them, period.

And you might be right if the laws in this country weren't so fucked.

I'll bring up the same thing we talk about a lot - drug laws - because those are some of the most fucked up.

When my government feels that a group of humans can sit down and decide that other humans are not allowed to smoke marijuana and that it is a legal excuse to steal all their belongings, yeahhhhh... Everyone has something to lose here.
 
lcpiper said:
I'm just curious. Why do any of you think that the end of the Patriot Act will end the Bulk Meta-Data Collection Program?
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My point was to Gavv, but here's my thoughts since you're quoting me.

I don't think it will end any data collection because there's no public oversight. There isn't even Congressional oversight. There's no way to verify it's being stopped, so in practice this probably won't accomplish anything to stop the NSA from doing what it always does.

That being said, it's the principle of the matter that I'm looking at, and the political fallout. Rand Paul took a stand against the party establishment, said "this is wrong", and actually did something to upset the applecarts of a lot of powerful people. Was it showmanship? Was it politically calculated for his presidential bid? Yeah, probably, but if anyone's going to reign in the Federal Government it has to begin somewhere. The people in Washington have this attitude problem that they consider themselves untouchable, smarter than everyone else, and that nobody would dare cross them. Rand Paul did the Senatorial equivalent of flipping the bird at the Federal Government. Like him or not, that took guts. Congress and the President need to be reminded who they work for, and that they're not immune to their employers' ire when they step over the line. I'm hoping this action inspires others to listen to what the population is saying about the overreach of the Fed.

In the long term, that's how you'll solve these problems if they're ever to be solved. It is just a first step, and a very small one. It may lead nowhere, but those who never try are only certain to fail.
 
dandragonrage said:
Allowing police to search any residence at any time would save us from some incidents. Random checkpoints all over the place would, too. Forcing everyone to wear GPS units that can be tracked by the government also would. So would just throwing everyone in jail as a preemptive measure. Might as well just do all that stuff.
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The show has a program that tracks everything with cameras, online activity, phone activity, money activity to predict when a bad thing will occur and to whom. Doesn't say if they are the victim or perp or what will happen. But, everything is monitored and used. Nothing is sacred. If we did that on a large scale, it would work. If we had cameras everywhere and monitored everyone's activities 24/7, crime would be a relic of the past. As would freedom and humanity. Odd that the country that prided itself on freedom is in the forefront of removing that in the name of protection.
 
PNut12345 said:
The towers didn't collapse due to melted steel beams. They collapsed due to a number factors, including steel which was softened, losing strength, and with that lost the ability to support the weight of the floors above.
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Tgrove said:
Looked like a typical building implosion to me
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MrCrispy said:
And it magically happened in minutes instead of the hours it should take, and the actual collapse exactly resembles a controlled demolition, but that's just conspiracy right?
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Ur_Mom said:
Oh shit. You thought I was serious? I wasn't at all. I agree with exactly what you said. Just using the typical tin foul hat stuff. :)
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daglesj said:
Just how often do they test building integrity with fully loaded jet liners smashing into them at 300mph?
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How is it then the buildings fell perfectly with out breaking windows of near by buildings, as noted in a perfect demolition style collapse...vs tipping over and going all over the place... the angles alone the planes hit the building should of had the top drop then slide off the side vs have a perfect downward drop as one side would of collapsed before the other side of the building.

Why is it the 3rd building collapsed when it had nothing hit it...and some time after the 2 towers went down......

Too much questionable stuff happened that day and with proof of past black flag op's from the U.S government I put nothing past them....

Look at the power 9/11 gave them over their citizens all in the name of "your safety"...
 
Phoenix333 said:
My point was to Gavv, but here's my thoughts since you're quoting me.

I don't think it will end any data collection because there's no public oversight. There isn't even Congressional oversight.
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But you are wrong. I have pointed it out so many times, just some people refuse to believe it. There is plenty of oversight over the NSA's activities.

There is a reality you and others refuse to accept. That intelligence activities are needed and that a government must perform them. Every government in the world does, some do it nicer then others, but that's just how it is and maybe in some idealistic far off future it won't be that way, but that is the world we live in.

In order for these activities to be useful and successful they must be kept from a potential enemy's knowledge and to do this, they must be kept from everyone's knowledge that doesn't need to know about them.


Here is a decent list with explanations of the Oversight provided for on US Intelligence Activities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Intelligence_Community_Oversight
 
Ur_Mom said:
The show has a program that tracks everything with cameras, online activity, phone activity, money activity to predict when a bad thing will occur and to whom. Doesn't say if they are the victim or perp or what will happen. But, everything is monitored and used. Nothing is sacred. If we did that on a large scale, it would work. If we had cameras everywhere and monitored everyone's activities 24/7, crime would be a relic of the past. As would freedom and humanity. Odd that the country that prided itself on freedom is in the forefront of removing that in the name of protection.
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How is it you make that claim? That the US is at the forefront of removing freedom? I always thought we had a pretty healthy lead on the race for individual freedom. Without linking to any other website, article, whatever just relate for us how you yourself are not a free man?

Are you not free to make your own life for yourself and if not, why?
 
lcpiper said:
How is it you make that claim? That the US is at the forefront of removing freedom? I always thought we had a pretty healthy lead on the race for individual freedom. Without linking to any other website, article, whatever just relate for us how you yourself are not a free man?

Are you not free to make your own life for yourself and if not, why?
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That was a 'what if' post based on a fictional show and what someone else posted that 'if' we could put a ton of restrictions on things that crime would be avoided.

Also, you can be a free man but still be monitored 24/7. Doesn't make the monitoring right. IMO. Freedom & privacy. Am I free to do as I please, when I please? Not really. There are some laws that I don't agree with, so as an individual I cannot say I am 100% free. As a society, we have laws that some will agree with and others will not agree with. That's how civilization works, though. So, no one is really 100% free to do as they choose without consequences. I'm not just talking about murder, drugs, etc.. simple things lie jaywalking, walking in some public lands (and I'm sure there are others that are much more obvious). I'm good with most laws, but there are those few that people will always not agree with and it affects their freedom. But, society as a whole has come together and said those were against the law for the benefit of the whole.
 
MrGuvernment said:
Too much questionable stuff happened that day and with proof of past black flag op's from the U.S government I put nothing past them....

Look at the power 9/11 gave them over their citizens all in the name of "your safety"...
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We'll probably never know but i have a strong feeling some dirty secrets were burried in the rubble that day. Some dirt from Bush Sr presidency, the military or something much more sinister, who knows.

The invasion of Iraq in my eyes looked like nothing more than a personal grudge settled between Sadaam and the Bush's. That administration profited tremendously from those wars and we all know where there is profit, there is motive.

Just too many things dont add up and its all stinks to high hell. All i know for certain is that we are all nothing but pawns in this game of life, in the end the only thing i can do is be thankful im on the side of the bomb droppers while i stick my head in the sand and hope that the blowback doesnt one day comeback to hurt me or my loved ones.
 
lcpiper said:
But you are wrong. I have pointed it out so many times, just some people refuse to believe it. There is plenty of oversight over the NSA's activities.

There is a reality you and others refuse to accept. That intelligence activities are needed and that a government must perform them. Every government in the world does, some do it nicer then others, but that's just how it is and maybe in some idealistic far off future it won't be that way, but that is the world we live in.

In order for these activities to be useful and successful they must be kept from a potential enemy's knowledge and to do this, they must be kept from everyone's knowledge that doesn't need to know about them.


Here is a decent list with explanations of the Oversight provided for on US Intelligence Activities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Intelligence_Community_Oversight
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Yes!

Warrantless dragnetting of all personal info is exactly the kind of thing that prevented the Boston bombing! Imagine what would have happened without it!
 
Skripka said:
Yes!

Warrantless dragnetting of all personal info is exactly the kind of thing that prevented the Boston bombing! Imagine what would have happened without it!
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There has been nothing like this shown at all from anyone? You got a source cause the last I saw said, Call Time, Call Duration, Calling Number, number Called, and one more, stored in a Database that is not connected to any other database, accessed by querying against a known targeted foreign intelligence threat's number, connected by three hops, (Two after Obama changed it), which pulled target numbers that were then checked against the Provider's records for identities, which of course were eight US Persons or Non-US Persons, which for any US Persons they went back to the FISA Court and got Warrants (retroactively because they couldn't know who's number was a US Person until after they get the records from the provider) for the US Persons.

Now if that qualifies as "Warrantless dragnetting of all personal info" then my concept of all personal info is much smaller in scope then your own.
 
"eight" was supposed to be either :eek:

"....were either US Persons or Non-US Persons"
 
lcpiper said:
There has been nothing like this shown at all from anyone? You got a source cause the last I saw said, Call Time, Call Duration, Calling Number, number Called, and one more, stored in a Database that is not connected to any other database, accessed by querying against a known targeted foreign intelligence threat's number, connected by three hops, (Two after Obama changed it), which pulled target numbers that were then checked against the Provider's records for identities, which of course were eight US Persons or Non-US Persons, which for any US Persons they went back to the FISA Court and got Warrants (retroactively because they couldn't know who's number was a US Person until after they get the records from the provider) for the US Persons.

Now if that qualifies as "Warrantless dragnetting of all personal info" then my concept of all personal info is much smaller in scope then your own.
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And then the NSA farms off any data they're not allowed to look at or use as it were to the Israelis or GCHQ in London. Our allies can look at the data legally and vice versa. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy around the laws.
 
lcpiper said:
There has been nothing like this shown at all from anyone? You got a source cause the last I saw said, Call Time, Call Duration, Calling Number, number Called, and one more, stored in a Database that is not connected to any other database, accessed by querying against a known targeted foreign intelligence threat's number, connected by three hops, (Two after Obama changed it), which pulled target numbers that were then checked against the Provider's records for identities, which of course were eight US Persons or Non-US Persons, which for any US Persons they went back to the FISA Court and got Warrants (retroactively because they couldn't know who's number was a US Person until after they get the records from the provider) for the US Persons.

Now if that qualifies as "Warrantless dragnetting of all personal info" then my concept of all personal info is much smaller in scope then your own.
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If you honestly believe the NSA isn't collecting all of it in violation of the law...then I have a life size solid platinum Golden Gate suspension bridge to sell you.

And for all the expense and constitutional violations of FISA and the Patriot Act...what have they stopped? Didn't stop the Boston Bombers...hell they haven't even stopped school shootings which are 100X more frequent than terrorist attacks. Our kids are 100X more likely to be killed by one of their classmates who has gone homicidal (and probably posted about it on the internet), than they are to be killed by ISIL.

What good does all this accomplish? Makes some contractors a shit ton of money...and not much else.
 
Ranulfo said:
And then the NSA farms off any data they're not allowed to look at or use as it were to the Israelis or GCHQ in London. Our allies can look at the data legally and vice versa. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy around the laws.
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This is stupid, really man, get a grip.
 
Skripka said:
If you honestly believe the NSA isn't collecting all of it in violation of the law...then I have a life size solid platinum Golden Gate suspension bridge to sell you.

And for all the expense and constitutional violations of FISA and the Patriot Act...what have they stopped? Didn't stop the Boston Bombers...hell they haven't even stopped school shootings which are 100X more frequent than terrorist attacks. Our kids are 100X more likely to be killed by one of their classmates who has gone homicidal (and probably posted about it on the internet), than they are to be killed by ISIL.

What good does all this accomplish? Makes some contractors a shit ton of money...and not much else.
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I truely believe the NSA is not violating the law, that their collection was lawful is without doubt. Whether it was Constitutional waits for the day the Supreme Court makes a ruling if they ever do.

The Boston Bombers were not an outside threat, they were a domestic threat. the NSA is a Foreign Intelligence Organization and do not conduct intelligence Operations against US Persons. That doesn't mean they don't have to sift through the combined data of the Americans and the Foreigners to find the data they need to be looking at. It's all in there together.

School Shootings are NOT a DoD responsibility and if you still can't grasp that the NSA is a Military Organization with a Military mission then you will never get any of this anyway.

Since the Military is responsible for protecting us against foreign threats they must be doing a great job cause the last kids killed in a terror attack were the ones who were inside the World trade Center when the towers came down.

Somehow you got a screwed up idea that the data that is collected by the NSA is freely accessed by the FBI or whoever in order to sift through it for clues of illegal or threatening behavior. this is false.

First, they only thing that phone meta-data can show on it's own is a relationship between phone numbers called. Since the database is not connected to other databases there is no capability to cross reference information, not at that point anyway. Now once they find a link between a known bad guy calling others here in the US, then they pull all those numbers in and get account details from the service providers and then all the data from the foreigners goes into X-Keystore and any US Persons who the FISA Court approves a warrant for will go in there as well.

Now that they have the data in X-Keystore they can start doing some serious work, furthermore, if the information is from calls inside the US this stuff is now available to the FBI. That means any US Person who has data in X-Keystore had a warrant issued for the action.

But you'll ignore this.
 
I don't know why you let these guys continue to troll you IcPiper, I mean, you either know whats going on or you don't, and no amount of explaining is going to change the mind of these posters. They aren't going to read your posts and go, hmm, maybe I was wrong and you are right. They are going to continue to troll away thinking they know exactly what is happening. For those that have been in the know, it isn't worth explaining because you would probably eventually violate one of your bullets...
 
Clapper lied under oath, ex director Alexander had investments from information appropriated from Chinese hackers. these are the men at the top.

They don't give two shits about the values of the country they purport to serve. NSA following the law is like DEA civil asset forfeiture following the law; they have the paperwork but it is completely unethical.

Patriots, my ass.
 
aardvark sandwich said:
They don't give two shits about the values of the country they purport to serve. NSA following the law is like DEA civil asset forfeiture following the law; they have the paperwork but it is completely unethical.
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Being legal doesn't make it right. Yes, they are following the law as it's written. But, the law needs changed. That's what they are working on now. lcpiper has gone on how legal it is, and he's correct. They aren't breaking the law. It's just a really shitty way of doing things.
 
MrGuvernment said:
How is it then the buildings fell perfectly with out breaking windows of near by buildings, as noted in a perfect demolition style collapse...vs tipping over and going all over the place... the angles alone the planes hit the building should of had the top drop then slide off the side vs have a perfect downward drop as one side would of collapsed before the other side of the building.

Why is it the 3rd building collapsed when it had nothing hit it...and some time after the 2 towers went down......

Too much questionable stuff happened that day and with proof of past black flag op's from the U.S government I put nothing past them....

Look at the power 9/11 gave them over their citizens all in the name of "your safety"...
Click to expand...

Those towers didn't drop straight down into their own footprints. The third building, WTC7, was damaged by debris from one or both of the falling towers.

You haven't seen many controlled demoes if the WTC collapses looked controlled to you...
 
dandragonrage said:
Allowing police to search any residence at any time would save us from some incidents. Random checkpoints all over the place would, too. Forcing everyone to wear GPS units that can be tracked by the government also would. So would just throwing everyone in jail as a preemptive measure. Might as well just do all that stuff.
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You mean, like in Baltimore? Yeah, that worked out pretty good, didn't it?
 
Mohonri said:
I dunno about the rest of you guys, but I think *every* law needs to come with an expiration date. If it's good enough to keep after 10 years, it should be easy to renew it. Plus, if congress is kept busy renewing old laws individually, it'll reduce their ability to pass bad laws...
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Agreed.
 
If you haven't read it already, it's worth picking up:

No_Place_to_Hide,_Edward_Snowden,_the_NSA,_and_the_U.S._Surveillance_State.jpg
 
lcpiper said:
But you are wrong. I have pointed it out so many times, just some people refuse to believe it. There is plenty of oversight over the NSA's activities.
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Just how do you go about proving that?

There is a reality you and others refuse to accept. That intelligence activities are needed and that a government must perform them. Every government in the world does, some do it nicer then others, but that's just how it is and maybe in some idealistic far off future it won't be that way, but that is the world we live in.
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I never said intelligence activities were unnecessary. Spying on every citizen's activities 24/7 is what is unnecessary. That's what people are afraid is happening, and knowing the history of abuses on the part of the Federal Government, it's a justified fear. Remember how this country was founded, and the attitude of the Founders: Government is not to be trusted.

In order for these activities to be useful and successful they must be kept from a potential enemy's knowledge and to do this, they must be kept from everyone's knowledge that doesn't need to know about them.
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Thank you Captain Obvious. I really needed that refresher on Intel 101. :rolleyes:

My problem is with the Federal Government treating its own citizenry as if it's the enemy, while ignoring the real threats. If you think I'm wrong, get back to me on how that border fence is coming along, and the number of Al Qaida and ISIS operatives that have been kept from crossing and infiltrating the country. All the wire tapping in the world doesn't mean shit if you leave the fucking front door open.

Here is a decent list with explanations of the Oversight provided for on US Intelligence Activities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Intelligence_Community_Oversight
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Uh-huh. Then explain how shit like this happens:

http://freebeacon.com/issues/congre...-facility-housing-illegal-immigrant-children/

The last I checked, HHS doesn't "officially" engage in classified activity.... yet I'm supposed to believe that the NSA does everything above-board when the freaking HHS can bar a congressman in his own district from visiting the facility?

If you wonder why people refuse to believe you it's because they have absolutely no good reason to. You can't provide any evidence because, as you said, it's all classified, so that means people have to rely on the word of the people that are allowed to see it. Well, in the case of Rep. Bridenstine, there's no word to give because even he wasn't allowed to see what wasn't even classified. As for the people that are allowed... do you honestly expect anyone to believe a word Obama says? He's the one with the top clearance, and he is a proven liar over and over.

Just who are people supposed to trust, hmm? The President? The Senate Intelligence Committee? Now there's a contradiction in terms. You? Ever hear of Fast and Furious? The BATFE got caught red handed breaking the law, and the US Attorney General had his fingerprints all over it. How about the IRS and Lois Lerner? Now explain why anyone should accept your word that nobody in the NSA is breaking any laws if other Federal agencies have already been caught either breaking laws or failing to enforce them. YOU claim to work for government intelligence, so the burden of proof here is on YOU. YOU provide proof that everything is above-board, and then I might believe you. Right now I have zero reason to believe any of your overtures of reassurance that the NSA is acting lawfully and with no malice toward the American people.
 
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