The "Official" Canon R5, R6, and Sony A7s III thread

UnknownSouljer

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For most subforums it makes sense to have separate threads, but here in the camera sub it moves super slow. So I figured creating 3 threads would just mean the same people would be hoping back and forth to threads needlessly. Anyway, that said:

FULL ANNOUNCEMENT and SPECS for Canon R5 and R6:
The specs are what we expected them to be. The leaks were basically all 100% accurate. The camera either line skips or pixel bins in 4k. It "only" has downsampling up to 4k 30fps. Canon also claims up to 8 stop improvement with their IBIS. If that's true then their IBIS can make video hyper-smooth far greater than any Panasonic camera.
Commentary: It definitely seems like the R6 is the better deal for 99% of most users. The R6 is a bit more expensive than an A7III as an example, but it basically destroys that camera in every specification other than stills resolution and video oversampling. I expect though that Canon will have better ISO performance (bigger pixels) and less if any rolling shutter as compared to the Sony that I would personally consider bigger advantages (as well as much better ergonomics and flip out screen). In other words the R6 is basically the new best "all-rounder" taking the place of what I would consider the previous best all-rounder, the A7III. However the R6 should win, the A7III is now several years old.
As for the R5, I more or less look at it as the high resolution camera Canon shooters have been waiting for since the "very old" 5DS R. Sure it's 5 MP less, but that figure doesn't matter much. It now has all the technology improvements as well as much smaller body size as an R. I expect class leading dynamic range, autofocus, ergonomics, DPAF, and color. The video modes are a cherry on top for people who want the extreme high-end. I think its 120fps 4k is more intriguing than its up-to 30fps 8k. And I think RAW on a camera like this is a waste for most people as the data rates will likely be eye watering (if the 1DS III is of any indication, and I'm sure it will be). Even for people wanting to use this camera as an A-camera for smaller productions, RAW will likely still be a big data problem. However the 10-bit 4-2-2 h.265 will be the exact opposite of RAW in the sense that it will be relatively reasonable in size and with LOG functionally not different enough from RAW to warrant RAW in most circumstances.
In short, I would say that Canon has announced two killer cameras. Personally I would say these are at the top of the heap and frankly it's about time. Canon was producing weak cameras for about the last decade. Finally with the launch of the C500 II, C300 III, and now the R5 and R6, Canon has a complete lineup of cameras that make sense as a system versus its competition. Although it's unlikely I'll switch back to Canon (I have my own reasons for this), I'm glad this level of competition exists and that these fantastic cameras exist.

https://www.cinema5d.com/canon-eos-r5-8k-raw-internal-video-and-canon-r6-4k-recording-announced/
https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-officially-announces-the-eos-r5-and-eos-r6-along-with-4-new-lenses-and-two-teleconverters/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+canonrumors/rss+(Canon+Rumors)
  • 45 Megapixel Full-frame CMOS Sensor
  • DIGIC X Image Processor
  • 8K RAW, 4K up to 120fps, 10-bit 4:2:2 with Canon Log or HDR PQ
  • All Recording Formats have Autofocus
  • Uncropped and Cropped Shooting Modes
  • In-Body Image Stabilization, 8 Stops of Correction
  • ISO range of 100-51200; Expandable to 102400
  • Continuous Shooting: 12 fps with Mechanical Shutter, 20 fps Electronic (Silent) Shutter
  • Dual Pixel CMOS AF covering 100% area - 1,053 AF Areas
  • Subject tracking of People and Animals, Eye Tracking
  • Dual Card Slots, CFexpress and UHS-II SD
  • Built-in 0.5” 5.76 Million Dots OLED EVF with 120fps refresh rate
  • Vari-angle LCD Touchscreen
  • 2.4 and 5Ghz Wi-Fi, Bluetooth
  • 20MP Dual Pixel CMOS Sensor
  • In-body stabilization rated at up to 8EV of correction
  • Dual Pixel AF II with AI-trained subject tracking and 100% AF coverage
  • 20 fps shooting with e-shutter, 12 fps mechanical
  • UHD 4K shooting at up to 60p, 1080 at up to 120p
  • 10-bit 4:2:2 internal recording in either C-Log or HDR PQ
  • 10-bit HDR photos in HEIF format
  • 3.68M dot EVF
  • 1.62M dot fully-articulated rear touchscreen
  • New battery rated at around 380 shots per charge (EVF)

Both new cameras are available for pre-order. Price has been set to $3,899 (around €3,900 in Europe) for the Canon EOS R5 and to $2,499 (around €2,330 in Europe) for the more affordable EOS R6. Shipping should start soon.
Initial EOS R5 Review:
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-r5-initial-review
The EOS R5 can, frankly, adapt to about any type of photography you need to do. The price you pay for that is, of course, the highest MSRP in this market segment. But given my experience with a pre-production model, I'm comfortable claiming that there isn't a competing camera that meets this combination of image quality, responsiveness, autofocus, video specifications and usability.
Frequent visitors to this site may wonder why some users are still clinging to DSLRs as mirrorless technology improves with each new release. But I think that both the EOS R5 and EOS R6, as impressively capable and 'complete' feeling cameras, are perhaps what some users that are still clinging to DSLRs have really been waiting for. It just took a little longer than we might have expected to get here.

Initial EOS R6 Review:
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-r6-initial-review
Stills shooters get what's currently the best-rated stabilization in its class, along with the fastest continuous shooting and a very promising-looking AF system, all in a body that feels comfortable, well-built and well thought-out. Video users get near-full-frame 4K/60p with some decent encoding options and also benefit from the stabilization and AF.
It's early days, of course, but the EOS R6 makes a much more consistently positive first impression than the EOS R did. And, while 20 megapixels isn't going likely to be overly demanding on Canon's high-end RF lenses, this feels like a camera that finally gives enthusiast photographers a way to enjoy them. It means that this whole RF business suddenly makes a lot more sense.

Peter McKinnon hands on with R5 and R6:
Canon brand ambassador Peter McKinnon had access to prototype models of both Canon R5 and R6 for a few weeks and here are his impressions of both in two separate videos.
R5:
R6:
Does the R5 overheat?:
Andrew Reid at EOSHD seems to think so. But I am guessing it's no worse than Sony Cameras from 2010-2014.
https://www.eoshd.com/news/canon-eos-r5-has-serious-overheating-issues-in-both-4k-and-8k/
The Canon EOS R5 does push the technology under the hood very hard. With only passive cooling and no fan, in a body barely any larger than the Sony A7 III, Canon has decided to implement very short maximum recording times for 8K and 4K shooting on the R5. The recording time limits become much more severe once the camera has stopped once on a shoot from overheating.

Canon will be doing a live stream for the R5 and R6 on the 9th.
Where I assume they will enumerate all the new technologies in their new cameras.
https://www.canonrumors.com/reimagi...non-eos-r6-live-event-registration-goes-live/
Canon will be doing a Livestream event on July 9, 2020, to announce the Canon EOS R5, Canon EOS R6, and a whole slew of lenses and accessories.
Meanwhile the R5 video recording modes have leaked:
https://www.canonrumors.com/8k-recording-options-for-the-canon-eos-r5-leak/
As you can see, you can shoot either 8K DCI or 8K ultra, which will be slightly different resolutions. The resolutions of the two modes will likely be 8192×4320 and 7680×4320.
Codecs for 8K recordings appear to be ALL-I, IPB, and obviously RAW.

Some R6 specs have leaked:
Personally I think the R6 is the more exciting camera. 8k RAW is just going to take up too much data, and 8K as a format is entirely unnecessary. Most people buying a mirrorless for video will want nice looking compressed video instead of RAW, especially if they're producing any amount of content regularly (of course the R5 can shoot compressed as well, but why pay more if you're going to do that?). It also appears that it will have all of the stills boxes checked as well.
https://www.canonrumors.com/here-is-the-canon-eos-r6/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+canonrumors/rss+(Canon+Rumors)
  • 20mp full-frame CMOS sensor
  • IBIS
  • 12fps mechanical and 20fps electronic.
  • Oversampled 5K Video
  • 4K @ 60p
  • FullHD @ 120p
  • Canon Log
  • 10-bit
  • Zebras
  • AF identical to the EOS R5
  • No RAW video mode
  • Dual SD UHS-II slots
  • Head detection AF
  • Animal detection AF
  • Identical 5 million dot EVF as the EOS R5
  • No top-down screen
  • Build quality not as good as the EOS R5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sony A7S III:
Launch Specs:

New BSI sensor (2x the reading speed - meaning virtually no rolling shutter effect and also allowing 240fps). New processor that reads 8x faster than the previous one. 15+ stops of dynamic range (versus 12+ in the original A7SII). New ISO that goes up to over 409,000 (the new low light king). 4k 120p and 1080 240p internal recording in 10-bit 4-2-2 Intra. 16-bit raw externally. No overheating. Recording time not limited by temperature or time. Single battery lasts roughly 1 hour. Sony NP-FZ100 batteries. Greatly improved IBIS. 759 focus points on 92% of the frame. Greatly improved AF performance, including eye-af and animal-af. All focus modes available in all recording modes (including eye-af). 1440p monitor that fully flips out! Completely redone menus (that now allow full touch!). AF Improvements Ergonomics perfected. CFExpress type A necessary for 120fps and 240fps recording. Takes CFExpress and SD II V90.
$3500. This camera won't compete in terms of stills (most expect at least 18-24MP). But I think it's basically the best mirror-less ever specifically for video recording. Especially considering the monstrous pixel size of a full frame sensor and "only" 12.1MP.
https://www.cinema5d.com/sony-a7s-iii-announced-4k120-10-bit-422-16-bit-raw-output/
  • XAVC-S (H.264) – normal in 4K 120,60,30 fps (100,50,25 in PAL), S&Q in 4K from 1 up to 120fps.
  • XAVC-HS (H.265) – normal in 4K 120,60 fps (100,50 in PAL), S&Q in 4K from 1 up to 120fps.
  • XAVC S-I (H.264) – normal in 4K 60,30 fps (50,25 in PAL), S&Q in 4K from 1 up to 120fps.
  • Full HD is available till 240fps.
Sample Footage from Cinema 5D:
https://www.cinema5d.com/sony-a7s-iii-review-mini-documentary-and-lowlight-sample-footage/


Canon Rumors claims to have full leak of A7III before July 28th Announcement:
https://www.canonrumors.com/industr...-images-leak-ahead-of-tomorrows-announcement/
  • New 12MP sensor with fast readout and S-Cinetone color science
  • Records FHD 240fps, 4k120fps 10bit 4:2:2 and 4K120fps raw over HDMI
  • Only up to 4k60 will be 10bit 4:2:2 internal.
  • Downsampled 1080p from 4K, making this the best 1080p hybrid ever made! No line skipping or pixel binning.
  • No internal RAW.
  • 600mbps bitrate
  • Base ISO 160 for S-LOG3
  • No Dual ISO
  • Max ISO 409600 (video)
  • 16bit RAW output
  • Sony claims 15 stops dynamic range
  • Movie Edit add-on compatibility for Image Stabilization in post
  • World’s highest resolution new 9.44 million dot EVF (QXGA resolution)
  • Same Sony A7rIV AF system
  • New kind of passive (noise-free) cooling system
  • UHS-II card and CFexpress Type A card support (each of the two slots takes them both!)
  • Fully articulating screen like the one used by the Sony ZV-1.
  • The video record button is now on the top of the camera, placed behind the shutter button
  • $4000 USD
  • Starts shipping in mid-August
Sony confirms a7S III launch event
https://www.dpreview.com/news/08932...s-iii-launch-event-will-take-place-on-july-28
Sony has announced, via a teaser on its website, it will be holding an ‘Imagination in Motion’ launch event for its forthcoming a7S III camera on July 28 at 10am EDT (-4 UTC).
It's officially official:
It has been announced that it will launch this summer. What that means is anyone's guess. While the R5 has had tons of leaks, Sony has had very little information come out if any except rumors.
While 10-bit 4K and 60fps is expected, any modes or specs past that is mostly speculation. I do expect class leading auto-focus, fx9 color science, class leading ISO performance, and a lower price compared to Panasonic s1h.
https://www.dpreview.com/interviews...7s-ii-successor-this-summer-everything-is-new
“We’ve received many requests, especially from professional video content creators, and I can confirm that a successor to the Alpha 7S II will be coming, later this summer. Right now we’re focused on the launch of the new camera, and it will be a complete redesign of the whole system, including the image sensor. Everything is new. We hope it will meet and exceed the expectations and requests of our customers. I’m very confident that our new model will meet their demands.”
-Kenji Tanaka, VP and Senior General Manager of Sony's Business Unit 1, Digital Imaging Group.


I’ll continue to update the op with news as it becomes available.
 
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UnknownSouljer

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On R5/R6 Overheating issues:
Tilta designs a cooling system for the R5 to combat its overheating:
https://www.cinema5d.com/tilta-eos-r5-cooling-kit-fan-accessory-combat-canon-r5-overheating/

Cinema 5D has serious problems shooting with the R6 due to overheating:
https://www.cinema5d.com/canon-eos-...otage-serious-limitation-doubtful-video-tool/
Recording time imitations is one thing but overheating shutdown in unexpected points of the filming day is truly an obstacle. Furthermore, the recovery time is long (or at least seems to be long when you are under pressure to resume filming as your talents are all waiting). As my frustration grew, I tried it all. Ice bag on the camera, strong fan pointing directly to the sensor glass (yes, at some point I did not care anymore about exposing the sensor to the strong wind as long as I can resume filming)… I also tried looking up at the sky and mumble a few words (if it doesn’t help, it won’t hurt for sure I thought). I even made promises to be a nicer person and a good friend. All for the sake of seeing the camera working again, BUT, no evil. The weather-sealed camera body did a “great job” by doing what it supposed to do, and not let anything enter it. Not even the fresh fan air…

Kai W. airs his thoughts about the R5:
For what it's worth I think his overall standpoint is pretty fair. To a certain degree I have been less balanced. If you want to tl;dr this, his point is basically: because it's Canon, the response is polarizing. If another camera manufacturer was to overheat, we'd overlook it. Lovers will love it more, haters will hate it more. However, my personal overall stance on this is that it has to work as a tool that it was intended for. And if it doesn't pass muster, no level of specs matter. Once the R5 goes mainstream, we'll really see if overheating is a major issue or if it's one that can be worked around. The R6 hands on from Cinema 5D (above) is not particularly encouraging however.


Film Poets
Peter McKinnon
Commentary from Andrew Reid of EOSHD:
https://www.eoshd.com/news/heat-man...om-the-panasonic-s1h-and-sigma-fp/#more-23083
I’ve heard a lot of excuses from sales people and Canon reps that the overheating is inevitable in such a small weather-sealed body. The Sigma Fp and Panasonic S1H are proof that it isn’t inventible. Both are weather sealed and the Sigma Fp is the smallest 4K full frame camera on the market.
https://www.eoshd.com/8k/a-closer-l...wer-quality-4k-mode-to-avoid-thermal-cut-off/
Since this has a much lower frame rate, there’s less heat and less work for the image processor. Thus the 4K 30p (and 24/25p) pixel binned non-HQ mode does not have a thermal cut off.


EDIT: Canon releases an official response regarding R5/R6 overheating issues.
https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-r...nt-about-the-eos-r5-and-eos-r6-heat-concerns/
  • Set Overheat Control function to “ON” (default). When the overheat control function is enabled, the movie size and frame rate are automatically changed while the camera is in standby mode to suppress the rise of the internal temperature
  • Between recordings, it is recommended to turn off the camera
  • Position the camera out of direct sunlight
  • Use an external fan to dissipate heat
 
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vxspiritxv

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I personally would like to get a Canon; I have just one question that I haven't seen answered in all these youtube videos... Does it overheat when recording off HDMI 4k60? I have already seen a video where 4k50 overheats at 30min but that was recording internally.
 

IdiotInCharge

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I personally would like to get a Canon; I have just one question that I haven't seen answered in all these youtube videos... Does it overheat when recording off HDMI 4k60? I have already seen a video where 4k50 overheats at 30min but that was recording internally.
I don't think that anyone has been allowed to hook one up to see; a significant amount of processing work is comprised of compressing video and then streaming it to local storage. HDMI-only output will still generate heat, but should be manageable.
 

MN Scout

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I was reading the captions from the OP about the R5 being sealed and overheating, and I'm saying to myself "Couldn't they squash a thin hollow and finned heat-sink between two sides of the body?" Reading further I see that other manufacturers already did it. I think Canon definitely oversold this camera, but I'm sure creatives will be able to work with it. Most videos aren't one continuous shot, but are a lot of small takes.
 

IdiotInCharge

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I was reading the captions from the OP about the R5 being sealed and overheating, and I'm saying to myself "Couldn't they squash a thin hollow and finned heat-sink between two sides of the body?" Reading further I see that other manufacturers already did it.
Or fans; one thing to keep in mind is that while Canon is regularly accused of spec-sheet engineering, they also know their target demographics. The R5 is very clearly targeted as a 5Ds, 5D IV successor and is aimed squarely at the A7r IV and A9.

Sony has neither raw video nor Canon's market-leading video AF, while the only other serious competitors are well behind in video AF (Nikon) or basically just not trying at all (Panasonic / Leica / Sigma).

Further, in order to put a fan in, weather sealing and overall body rigity must be sacrificed to some degree. That may be fine for Sony and Panasonic buyers, but typical 5D owners expect more.
 

UnknownSouljer

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I was reading the captions from the OP about the R5 being sealed and overheating, and I'm saying to myself "Couldn't they squash a thin hollow and finned heat-sink between two sides of the body?" Reading further I see that other manufacturers already did it. I think Canon definitely oversold this camera, but I'm sure creatives will be able to work with it. Most videos aren't one continuous shot, but are a lot of small takes.
Like its noted in the post above, Andrew Reid pointed out that both the Sigma FP and Panasonic S1H figured out how to have weather sealed incredibly compact bodies and not overheat ever. I generally don't find fault with Canon. However, this is a major oversight. The Sigma FP is an absolutely miniscule camera; barely larger than an action camera (a very small "point and shoot" size). And it doesn't have this problem.

Or fans; one thing to keep in mind is that while Canon is regularly accused of spec-sheet engineering, they also know their target demographics. The R5 is very clearly targeted as a 5Ds, 5D IV successor and is aimed squarely at the A7r IV and A9.
On this I agree.

Sony has neither raw video nor Canon's market-leading video AF, while the only other serious competitors are well behind in video AF (Nikon) or basically just not trying at all (Panasonic / Leica / Sigma).
While I do agree that Canon has the best at AF, Sony isn't that far behind in terms of absolute performance. I think Canon's technology and process is better, dual-pixel AF being a clean, excellent way to do things. But there is actually a minimal performance difference despite Canon having superior technology. I'd use either Sony or Canon interchangeably from an AF perspective.

I will say though that I think RAW on all of Canon's cameras are a waste. It's great to say they can do it, but the 1DX III (and II for that matter) has eye wateringly high data rate requirements at 1800Mb/s (23.98fps, it's even higher for 60fps). That isn't practical for anyone. The R5 has a 2500Mb/s requirement to shoot in 8k RAW. People that can afford the amount of HD's necessary to feed that absurdly high data rate (and then also have the processing power to edit it) can afford to either rent or buy a "better" camera. For reference: at 1800MB/s, it fills a 256MB card in 18 minutes. The R5 will literally have a terabyte of data for less than 1 hour of recording time.

So, as cool as it is to have this feature, the only people that will want it are those that are flying expensive drone productions and want a cheaper 8k camera than a RED (swap your cards while you swap your batteries I guess...). And people that want RAW for their crash cam. In other words, not most people that are going to buy this thing.

In theory, Canon is going to release a more compressed RAW form, and then maybe it will be slightly more usable. It's still hard to justify. Most will want to use a nice 10-bit (or possibly 12-bit) compressed codec with an excellent log curve, which will give nearly as much usable data as shooting in RAW (especially considering it's only 12-bit RAW).

If the Sony A7S3 doesn't have RAW, that will not deter me in the least. Don't get me wrong, it would be a "cool feature to have". But I'll care significantly more about other specs: notably, 10-bit, 30ms or faster sensor or global shutter, class leading AF, class leading battery life, class leading ISO performance, downsampled 4k and downsampled 1080p (probably from a 6k 24MP sensor), 15-stops of range, S-Log3, unlimited recording time, no-overheating, better ergonomics than the A7III. And I imagine some other things I care less about but still nice to haves, like an S-Cinetone Profile that matches Venice and FX9. That's a way more killer camera to me than the Panasonic S1H, Canon R5, or Sigma FP, all of which contain RAW but have significant other flaws.

Further, in order to put a fan in, weather sealing and overall body rigity must be sacrificed to some degree. That may be fine for Sony and Panasonic buyers, but typical 5D owners expect more.
Every cinema camera has fans. All of them. Using fans isn't a compromise and as Andrew Reid noted it doesn't have to affect weather sealing either. And in fact doesn't on the Sigma FP or Panasonic S1H. It also for sure doesn't affect any Arri Camera, and those are basically designed to weather deserts and the Arctic.
For reference again, here is Andrew Reid's commentary here:
https://www.eoshd.com/news/heat-man...om-the-panasonic-s1h-and-sigma-fp/#more-23083
I’ve heard a lot of excuses from sales people and Canon reps that the overheating is inevitable in such a small weather-sealed body. The Sigma Fp and Panasonic S1H are proof that it isn’t inventible. Both are weather sealed and the Sigma Fp is the smallest 4K full frame camera on the market.
I'd recommend reading the whole thing for full context and not just the copied blurb.
 
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MN Scout

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The R5 is a nice camera. I'd certainly love to shoot with it. I also like the new F11 telephoto lenses. I think they are a good price point, no donut bokeh, with VR and AF.

They need to make Canon branded ice-packs for remote work, or Canon branded mini-freezers for use on sets.

I have a Nikon D800, but my lenses are all cheaper ones. There are a lot of good options for replacing the D800 now.
 

IdiotInCharge

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Like its noted in the post above, Andrew Reid pointed out that both the Sigma FP and Panasonic S1H figured out how to have weather sealed incredibly compact bodies and not overheat ever. I generally don't find fault with Canon. However, this is a major oversight. The Sigma FP is an absolutely miniscule camera; barely larger than an action camera (a very small "point and shoot" size). And it doesn't have this problem.
But are they 5D weather sealed?

I'm betting that the answer to that question doesn't matter to many who may choose the FP or S1H for those cameras strengths, but they aren't 5D replacements.

While I do agree that Canon has the best at AF, Sony isn't that far behind in terms of absolute performance. I think Canon's technology and process is better, dual-pixel AF being a clean, excellent way to do things. But there is actually a minimal performance difference despite Canon having superior technology. I'd use either Sony or Canon interchangeably from an AF perspective.
DPAF is the only technology that is really 'trustable' for video AF. I'd use Sony's, of course, but outside of DPAF I'd use manual focus if I could.

Granted I expect Sony to retain an edge in stills, perhaps depending more on outside factors.
I will say though that I think RAW on all of Canon's cameras are a waste. It's great to say they can do it, but the 1DX III (and II for that matter) has eye wateringly high data rate requirements at 1800Mb/s (23.98fps, it's even higher for 60fps). That isn't practical for anyone. The R5 has a 2500Mb/s requirement to shoot in 8k RAW. People that can afford the amount of HD's necessary to feed that absurdly high data rate (and then also have the processing power to edit it) can afford to either rent or buy a "better" camera. For reference: at 1800MB/s, it fills a 256MB card in 18 minutes. The R5 will literally have a terabyte of data for less than 1 hour of recording time.

So, as cool as it is to have this feature, the only people that will want it are those that are flying expensive drone productions and want a cheaper 8k camera than a RED (swap your cards while you swap your batteries I guess...). And people that want RAW for their crash cam. In other words, not most people that are going to buy this thing.

In theory, Canon is going to release a more compressed RAW form, and then maybe it will be slightly more usable. It's still hard to justify. Most will want to use a nice 10-bit (or possibly 12-bit) compressed codec with an excellent log curve, which will give nearly as much usable data as shooting in RAW (especially considering it's only 12-bit RAW).
I expect most real work to be done with it where it makes sense. I agree that it's not a very practical solution for a lot of work, but where it can be integrated into workflows, I expect it to produce incredible results. And given how accessibly it's priced, and the ecosystem of available optics with outstanding AF capabilities, I think we're all going to see new approaches across the creative spectrum :).
I also like the new F11 telephoto lenses. I think they are a good price point, no donut bokeh, with VR and AF.
I got to wonder about these. They are alone in their niche, but their competition is going to come from the likes of Sigma and Tamron with their 150-600 lenses that open up to f/6.3, which I used to think was slow... and these can be had for a similar price. These f/11 primes seem almost 'disposable' to me.

They need to make Canon branded ice-packs for remote work, or Canon branded mini-freezers for use on sets.
No doubt folks are going to get creative. Honestly, once the rear screen is swung out of the way, the back of the camera looks ripe for some kind of cooling attachment.

I have a Nikon D800, but my lenses are all cheaper ones. There are a lot of good options for replacing the D800 now.
Nikon's 'cheaper' lenses are pretty universally solid; Canon's are less so, but also cheaper. You're not in a bad place!

As for the D800, the only suitable replacement I can think of is the D850, a camera that I'd happily put work myself.
 

UnknownSouljer

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But are they 5D weather sealed?
The 5D is sealed like a very average camera. I owned both the 5DII and 5DIII. There is nothing special about Canon in this regard. Their competitors also do plenty. It seems an absurd thing to bring up because people are using Nikon D3/4/5's and D8** series in the field for a long time as an example. And now Sony much the same. Colby Brown is a landscape photographer who has spent much of his time in arctic climates on Sony Cameras without issues. And similarly all of the cinema cameras I've brought up the same. The Arri Alexa is basically the most reliable camera on the planet. I'd take that over any Canon camera for reliability let alone its much better image quality and ergonomics. The Sony FS system and Cinealta systems have also been proven shooting documentaries all over the world in the worst environments.

So I'm not sure why you think Canon is special. They really aren't.

I'm betting that the answer to that question doesn't matter to many who may choose the FP or S1H for those cameras strengths, but they aren't 5D replacements.
You're right, in the sense that if people need a video camera that's Netflix approved then the only option is the S1H.

The 5D isn't really the gold standard either. Its performance has been eclipsed for a long time by other systems. The 5D even by Canon has been described as their Prosumer camera that is a step down from their "Pro level" cameras (they've changed their website since, which they don't use this terminology now), namely the 1D series. For practical purposes they've been used as professional camera bodies for people looking for excellent bang for the buck on the high-end without need for absolute top performance. And there are tons of cameras that fit this criteria. Any halo you believe is around the Canon 5D is legend and marketing hype.

DPAF is the only technology that is really 'trustable' for video AF. I'd use Sony's, of course, but outside of DPAF I'd use manual focus if I could.
I think this is just an area that we are going to have to disagree. People have been using Sony AF for video for a long long time. Sony was basically the only hybrid camera system that made sense for half a decade (if you specifically needed autofocus in video, 4k that wasn't cropped, and video assist features in addition to all the standard stills features). And has been used on tons of productions. The A7III really solidified Sony as a mainstay as a secondary camera (or primary camera in the case of really small productions).
Philip Bloom did a 2 hour review of Sony's FX9 specifically using over an hour of it just talking about AF. How good it is, and that it's only going to improve with firmware updates. And he's a guy that also has used and owns(ed) a Canon C200 and in the past C100's. He also did a A7III review highlight excellent autofocus as a major reason to use it.

The reality is until the R5/R6 have dropped (we'll see how that shakes up the market), most people were not using Canon 1DX series, R series, or 5D series bodies to shoot video due to either cost or other inherent problems in Canon systems (most are either on Sony or Panasonic like specifically the GH5/s). And if the problems are as bad as people say they are with the R5 then that will continue to be the case.
If the R5 can reliably shoot video that will change a lot, but apparently even at this point that's a bar that might be too high. We'll see, time will tell. But frankly "best autofocus in the world", highest resolution, RAW, and 8k don't matter if you can't shoot with it for more than an hour without it overheating on set.

Autofocus isn't a replacement for manual focus. With every camera system there will be time that Autofocus is optimal and times with manual is optimal. Even with an FX9 or Canon C300 III or C500 II you're going to need to pull your own focus because quite frankly a computer can't decide what it is you're trying to do artistically. Autofocus will not take over Hollywood except in the case of long tracking shots where subject distance is constantly getting altered. And it's great for shooting interviews. But for most everything else people will still continue to trust a hand over a machine making a decision. And that is completely irrespective and regardless of any camera system you're shooting on, whether it has excellent autofocus or not.
 
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IdiotInCharge

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And now Sony much the same. Colby Brown is a landscape photographer who has spent much of his time in arctic climates on Sony Cameras without issues.
I used my EOS M5 in some less than optimal situations, but it's not recommended... The 1D, D5, D8xx cameras are all built to a similar standard here. Sony's mirrorless cameras... are not. Likewise, anything with a fan in it is definitely not.

And similarly all of the cinema cameras I've brought up the same. The Arri Alexa is basically the most reliable camera on the planet. I'd take that over any Canon camera for reliability let alone its much better image quality and ergonomics. The Sony FS system and Cinealta systems have also been proven shooting documentaries all over the world in the worst environments.
Cinema cameras more or less aren't a good comparison to a semi-pro consumer camera. Yes, they have fans... and they have mortgage-level MSRPs, on the occasion that they can actually be bought, as well as teams to run them, including ensuring that they're set up properly for a given environment.
So I'm not sure why you think Canon is special. They really aren't.
A 5D is really only comparable with a D8xx. The R5 is really only comparable with... nothing? Not once you compare even basic video features with the available stills features and the standard of durability applied.
Sony? Less robust, less well sealed, and interfaces and menus designed by a consumer electronics company.
Panasonic? What's video AF?
You're right, in the sense that if people need a video camera that's Netflix approved then the only option is the S1H.
The S1H is the only stills-body form-factor camera on their approved camera list; but if a stack of Canon RAW supporting Canon cinema cameras are on the list, the R5 seems like quite the shoe-in!
The 5D isn't really the gold standard either. Its performance has been eclipsed for a long time by other systems.
On spec-sheet comparisons, without any doubt. Of course performance is pretty difficult to objectively measure in such a manner as to make any definitive statement, especially when it comes to the system.
People have been using Sony AF for video for a long long time.
And Sony's AF will still lose subject tracking often enough to be suspect. I mean, I'd use it too if that's what I had, but it wouldn't be my first choice for video AF, at least not their mirrorless cameras. Their cinema cameras are a different comparison.
The reality is until the R5/R6 have dropped (we'll see how that shakes up the market), most people were not using Canon 1DX series, R series, or 5D series bodies to shoot video due to either cost or other inherent problems in Canon systems (most are either on Sony or Panasonic like specifically the GH5/s). And if the problems are as bad as people say they are with the R5 then that will continue to be the case.
Well, from what it looks like, the 'overheating' issue occurs at performance levels beyond what's available on competing systems. If you can call them that ;).
Autofocus isn't a replacement for manual focus.
More and more, it is. Or at least with DPAF, it can be trusted to maintain a lock where the scene in question allows for a subject to be tracked.
But for most everything else people will still continue to trust a hand over a machine making a decision. And that is completely irrespective and regardless of any camera system you're shooting on, whether it has excellent autofocus or not.
What I expect to see, from Canon or elsewhere, is a move to say a tablet-based autofocus controller. One where manual overrides are available but AF sequence programs can be run and where those too can be overridden by the operator. Really, some kind of external interface is needed to tell the camera where to focus, what to look for, how fast to rack focus, etc.
 

UnknownSouljer

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I used my EOS M5 in some less than optimal situations, but it's not recommended... The 1D, D5, D8xx cameras are all built to a similar standard here. Sony's mirrorless cameras... are not. Likewise, anything with a fan in it is definitely not.
In order to make a Sony camera become unreliable it has to do something unreasonable. Basically they've only really had 1-2 issues. The only "major" one is the bottom battery door. And in order to stop the camera from functioning in a 'normal' way would be to place the camera in standing water, or in-effect submerging it. The other issue is allowing water to pool on top of the camera. Basically requiring negligence.
The short version is: yeah cameras are tools and you need them to be counted on. For 99.9999% of use cases they are. And only when you do something that basically no one does do they take issue.

I'd also like to see any tests you have on the S1H. Since you say it can't handle much you should have some level of proof to backup your statements. On a cursory search I only found this: https://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/6741-the-panasonic-lumix-s1h-is-a-do-it-all-powerhouse

The EOS R, which is clearly not a 5D which you keep going on and on about fails a basic rainfall test: https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-eos-r/canon-eos-rWEATHERTESTING.HTM
The R5 clearly has more in common with R than it does with 5D. So in order for your claims of durability to hold Canon is going to have to improve what they're doing by a lot. The S1 does fine in this type of test. But to be fair the A7 series has had some level of issue with it, however after drying has been seen to be fully operational. I haven't been able to find a good A9II or A7RIV test, both of which have much better sealing than the previous cameras and will likely be a good indicator of the A7S3 sealing.

Cinema cameras more or less aren't a good comparison to a semi-pro consumer camera. Yes, they have fans... and they have mortgage-level MSRPs, on the occasion that they can actually be bought, as well as teams to run them, including ensuring that they're set up properly for a given environment.
The entire FS range is under $10k. The C100/C200 are also under that amount.
An Alexa Classic can be had for $6k on the used market. (this is just an example I could find off hand, but there are plenty in the $6k range).
A Panasonic Varicam can also be had for a similar $6500~.

None of the cameras I've brought up require teams. They can all be solo operated. With all significant operating features on the operator side and generally nothing on the first AC/assist side.

Again, more to the point, anyone taking basic precautions to protect their cameras (as you note by teams doing the same) won't have any issues with a Sony camera in the same environments as a Canon one. You're a bad photographer if you don't take care of your tools. And no weather sealing is "weather proof" regardless of how good you think Canon's seals are.
To that point:
Sony a9II Review: 18 REASONS TO GET ONE... by an actual sports photographer
https://pmrphoto.blogspot.com/2019/10/sony-a9ii-review-by-actual-sports.html
" 6. DUST AND MOISTURE SEALING: Sony has been listening to shooters asking for better sealing from rain on all of their bodies. It's no accident that the most recent of these got it. While I'm very happy they are improving, I just want to say, for the record, that I have never had a Sony camera repaired from damage from rain games or water. I still do what I did when I shot CaNikon, which is to cover my expensive gear with form-fitted rain covers, but still, I'm glad that the a9II is much better sealed than the a9. I struggled to put this one at position #3, but the reality is that I will use the red frame on every single assignment, period. Hopefully we have seen the last of theso-called "influencers" on YouTube who felt the need to put a garden hose to three cameras in their back yard to gain likes and more following. It's like throwing gasoline on a fire for people that are interested in learning how to swallow Tide pods. Enough already. All cameras need rain covers if it's raining."

A 5D is really only comparable with a D8xx. The R5 is really only comparable with... nothing? Not once you compare even basic video features with the available stills features and the standard of durability applied.
The R series of cameras is totally different to a 5d even considering durability. And you're comparing camera systems that work with one that doesn't. So the irony is you're going on and on about Canon durability and it working in any conditions when it can't work for more than 20 minutes in a mildly hot environment. And certainly not for any extended period of time in direct sunlight.

The EOS R, which is clearly not a 5D which you keep going on and on about fails a basic rainfall test: https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-eos-r/canon-eos-rWEATHERTESTING.HTM

Sony? Less robust, less well sealed, and interfaces and menus designed by a consumer electronics company.
Panasonic? What's video AF?
Sony has been in the camera game (specifically the cinema camera game) far longer than Canon has. As has Panasonic. So your criticisms are really just an opinion.
Panasonic has also consistently released the best codecs with some of the best picture quality. Canon has their work cut out for them in order to make a camera look as good as an S1H.
No camera is perfect, but certainly I'd take a camera that works over one that doesn't. Canon can have all the best specs, but if their camera doesn't work, who cares? A 1080p handicam is more useful at that point.

The S1H is the only stills-body form-factor camera on their approved camera list; but if a stack of Canon RAW supporting Canon cinema cameras are on the list, the R5 seems like quite the shoe-in!
For who? Anyone running a serious production needs a reliable camera. Actually your first statement has been going on and on about build quality and reliability being the absolute most important factors. The R5 is the antithesis of being reliable. If you're shooting Canon and you need a B-Cam + RAW, it makes far more sense to buy a C200 than an R5.
This is also not even considering that the R5 has significant rolling shutter. Which is not something you'll see on Canon's little spec sheet. And that reason alone is more than enough reason to avoid this camera for any production with a budget.

On spec-sheet comparisons, without any doubt. Of course performance is pretty difficult to objectively measure in such a manner as to make any definitive statement, especially when it comes to the system.
It has been eclipsed for a long time. Enough to obviously and clearly necessitate an entire new mount and new glass for said mount. If that wasn't the case we'd see a 5D V long before the R5.
Canon clearly has acknoweldged this. Even if you haven't.

And Sony's AF will still lose subject tracking often enough to be suspect. I mean, I'd use it too if that's what I had, but it wouldn't be my first choice for video AF, at least not their mirrorless cameras. Their cinema cameras are a different comparison.
Like I said to begin with: we're going to agree to disagree. You're welcome to have your opinion. But there is functionally no difference. Everything will come down to your knowledge of these systems and what they're good at and what they're not.
Canon's system is far from infallible. I've watched plenty of just straight vlogging on Canon cameras with DPAF and seen plenty of focus shift to background. On talking heads and basic product shots. This happens all the time on channels like Potato Jet whom uses an EOS R.

Well, from what it looks like, the 'overheating' issue occurs at performance levels beyond what's available on competing systems. If you can call them that ;).
It happens at 4k 60fps. So, no?
Again: your position makes no sense because at its core it's hypocritical. You go on and on about reliability and durability and then you favor a system that is inherently not reliable doing a function that's basic. You've gone on about how the 5D hasn't been surpassed as a system and how Canon doesn't build for spec sheets and then when Canon does the reverse of that you praise a camera that has serious issues over cameras that are more reliable regardless of the specs.
You can't have it both ways. Canon can't have it both ways.

More and more, it is. Or at least with DPAF, it can be trusted to maintain a lock where the scene in question allows for a subject to be tracked.
Canon cameras generally aren't being used in major film productions. So I'm not sure how you're making this assertion. Canon really only has a foothold in smaller productions with single operators and small teams. Which isn't to say, nothing. But it's also not what is being depended upon for any film with serious budget. That's still all Arri, Red, Panasonic, and Sony. In fact I can't think of one major Hollywood production that has used a Canon camera. Feel free to post a list if you have one.

The situations again where subject tracking is wanted is primarily for veritae and live events. Important segments to be sure, however other companies have been doing just fine in this regard. As I've said repeatedly: Canon's AF isn't so overwhelmingly better that there is no alternative choice. And the alternative choices work just fine.

What I expect to see, from Canon or elsewhere, is a move to say a tablet-based autofocus controller. One where manual overrides are available but AF sequence programs can be run and where those too can be overridden by the operator. Really, some kind of external interface is needed to tell the camera where to focus, what to look for, how fast to rack focus, etc.
Sure? But that isn't remotely relevant to the conversation now.
To that end though with technology 'solving the problem'. Its just as likely that we'll see lightfield cameras (or similar technologies) in which you just choose your DOF and what is in focus in post. That's more or less just as relevant to talk about.
 
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IdiotInCharge

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In order to make a Sony camera become unreliable it has to do something unreasonable
...that's every camera.
The EOS R, which is clearly not a 5D which you keep going on and on about fails a basic rainfall test: https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-eos-r/canon-eos-rWEATHERTESTING.HTM
Then why mention the R? The R is not marketed to be 5D-class.

Sony has been in the camera game (specifically the cinema camera game) far longer than Canon has.
Minolta was; they also knew how to make cameras.
Since you say it can't handle much
Well, I didn't say that. It has a fan. That's it.
The entire FS range is under $10k. The C100/C200 are also under that amount.
You keep bringing these up... as if the average 5D shooter would be cross-shopping them.
Anyone running a serious production needs a reliable camera.
And if they need a camera with AF?
you need a B-Cam + RAW, it makes far more sense to buy a C200 than an R5
It always makes sense until you need a top-end stills camera too.
and then you favor a system that is inherently not reliable doing a function that's basic.
Internal RAW recording is basic?
 

UnknownSouljer

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...that's every camera.
Okay, then why bring it up?

Then why mention the R? The R is not marketed to be 5D-class.
Sure it was. It was literally a 5DIV in a mirror-less body. In every way it was designed to replace the 5D. You can call it a "place holder" but it clearly was the camera that Canon was building on top of for its new system. Much in the same way that the RP was clearly directly a 6D replacement.
In every way the R5 and R6 draw direct lineage from the R and RP. You'd have to do mental gymnastics to say they're not.

Minolta was; they also knew how to make cameras.
This is just bias. Which is fine, you're welcome to have it. But people have been making money just fine using Sony systems. And for basically the last decade, if you wanted better sensor technology, you were buying something other than Canon. Sony being among them.
It also is an absurd bias though to try and invalidate Sony as a relevant tool. Considering how dominant they are in the marketplace and with good reason.

Well, I didn't say that. It has a fan. That's it.
No, you said that its weather proofing wasn't as good. As a definitive statement "because it has a fan".

You keep bringing these up... as if the average 5D shooter would be cross-shopping them.
At this point there really aren't any 5D users, at least not ones that haven't moved to another platform like the R. Especially if the "average user" we're talking about is shooting a heavy amount of video modes. So are we talking about pros? Or are we talking about one subset of people that only buy one particular camera and ignore everything else because of brand loyalty. Because those are two really different types of people. See, I'm trying to talk about people that are doing this for work. Not amateurs that just buy the next model from the same company and can "afford" to not think about their purchasing decisions.
If you're not considering all of your options to shoot on then that's a problem with mentality. It's true that when trying to buy and build you want to be cost effective. However there are cameras like the EVA-1 that uses an EF mount. Or other series of cameras that can be adapted to use EF mount.
If you're using the most common mount, which admittedly Canon has, and you're not shopping around for the cameras that are going to give you the best bang for your buck, then what the heck are you doing? You can't really respond with anything other than brand loyalty or fanboyism. Especially considering that any cinema camera you buy is going to be your A cam, and your 5D will be a distance B cam.

And if they need a camera with AF?
I would argue no one "needs" it. Especially considering that my statement was about "serious productions" (literally quoted by you). Implying productions with large crews and big budgets which are all still using Arri/Red/Panasonic/Sony as I noted before. So no serious production is using AF. But if they want it as part of their spec sheet they buy a: C100, C100 mk2, C200, C300 mk II, C300 mk III, C500 mk II, c700, Sony FX9, Red Komodo.

It always makes sense until you need a top-end stills camera too.
Well then we're moving goal posts and switching scenarios. At that point I still wouldn't advise buying the R5. I'd say you should buy a 1DX III. Or a 1DX II. Or a Panasonic S1H. Or a Panasonic S1R. Or a Sony A7R IV. Or a Sony A7R III. Or a Sony A7 III. Or a Nikon Z6. Or a Nikon Z7. If RAW is an "absolute" requirement, feel free to ditch the Sonys. But as I've noted time and time again, people say they want RAW, but they really don't. And if you're talking about "the average 5d user" they definitely don't. And the pros that do want it are going to be a fraction of a single percent in terms of R5 buyers. Because as I implied in the news thread, that will mean they have the massive amounts of storage and computers to support the data-rates it spits out and be okay with exchanging 1TB of data for one hour.
Which, to reiterate, in reality is only a minuscule amount of people. Even famous vloggers don't want or need RAW and you could argue they're much higher in the market in terms of production than your "average 5d buyer".

Internal RAW recording is basic?
Yes. But you're moving goal posts again. I don't care if the camera can shoot 16-bit Raw internally (which frankly I don't think any cinema camera under $30k is capable of, other than the FX9 which requires an extension unit and a recorder). If the camera isn't capable of shooting it for any extended period of time it doesn't matter.
Canon's own official response notes that it requires optimum conditions in order to even have their ideal conditions in terms of recording time. Meaning an air conditioned room (as stated in their notes 73f). If I can only shoot 10 minutes of 8k Raw and then I have to shut my production down until we can get a fan on our camera and I have an entire production team waiting around for it, it ceases to matter what specs it does. In order to further use hyperbole: I don't care if it can shoot down-sampled 16k to 8k at 240fps in 16-bit internal RAW and somehow is able to have 4:1 compression at 800Mb/s; if it isn't reliable and has minuscule recording times then none of that matters.
Really the R5 is a pixel-binned, 4k, compressed camera with overblown specs that it can't use except in ideal conditions or for incredibly short time-frames. Because even the pixel binned 4k 60fps has a time limit. And the 120fps variety more so.

EDIT: The original Blackmagic Pocket Cinema camera made in 2012 was capable of internal RAW. So is the Sigma FP as has been noted. And the S1H. And all the newer BMPCC's. The 4k as an example shoots RAW, does 5:1 compression and does it for <$1300 new. RAW doesn't make your camera special or magical. Especially considering that RAW just gives flexibility in post, but not absolute better image quality. All that is really necessary is 10-bit 4-2-2 ProRes (or other codec compressed or not with high-bitrate) even for Hollywood level productions. In fact you'll note that in the Netflix approved camera list, Netflix has setup guides and what is acceptable in terms of codecs etc. And unsurprisingly compressed (non-RAW) codecs are approved. And that's because it's not necessary unless you're going to do VFX, you want a crazy grade, or you just straight up shot it wrong (as in greater than 2 stops over or under exposed).
 
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IdiotInCharge

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Sure it was. It was literally a 5DIV in a mirror-less body.
In terms of sensor and image quality, not in terms of the body itself. Not even close.
In every way the R5 and R6 draw direct lineage from the R and RP. You'd have to do mental gymnastics to say they're not.
Well, they do share a mount, after all. But that's about it. Very different cameras all around.
This is just bias. Which is fine, you're welcome to have it.
When speaking about Minolta, much of their inspiration has not filtered down to Sony's mirrorless ergonomics, and Sony's menus are... special. That's not bias, that's what basically every review from a cross-platform user or site has said with respect to Sony in the context of the R5 and R6.
But people have been making money just fine using Sony systems.

WIthout question! I've never claimed the opposite, and have been regularly tempted to grab a Sony body and a few lenses for my own amatuer uses. I'm currently tempted to grab a decent used A7R II for product and macro work, literally just for the resolution...
And for basically the last decade, if you wanted better sensor technology, you were buying something other than Canon. Sony being among them.
Including Canon. Canon's 1" camera point and shoots, and most if not all of their smaller point and shoots, use Sony sensors.
It also is an absurd bias though to try and invalidate Sony as a relevant tool. Considering how dominant they are in the marketplace and with good reason.
Their technology is dominant, their sales are not, and their brand cache is trailing. That said, I have not tried to 'invalidate Sony as a relevant tool'. Granted personally, I'd take almost any brand before Sony, but that's more to do with Sony's lack of focus on ergonomics and workflows that competitors such as Nikon, Fuji, and even our dear Olympus have had nailed for quite some time. The Panasonics S1H, despite its limitations, absolutely embarrasses Sony cameras in terms of being designed to actually be used for work. Fuji's cameras are just very impressive all around, and if any company has ergonomics, menus, and overall workflow down better than Canon, it's Nikon.
No, you said that its weather proofing wasn't as good. As a definitive statement "because it has a fan".
Having a fan, and thus intake and exhaust, is a compromise of weather sealing and overall robustness. Such a solution has its advantages of course, and it has its disadvantages.
At this point there really aren't any 5D users
...really? The 5D IV is everywhere. It remains the market standard for its type, in terms of sales and in terms of market representation doing work. I even see more affluent amatuers jumping back to Canon for the 5D IV just for Canon's system, lenses, color...

Wild, I know, that someone would sell and A7R III in order to pick up a 5D IV, or pick up a 5Ds instead of a new A7R IV for landscape shooting, and yet folks have done it, usually after tiring from the gymnastics needed to get good files out of the Sony cameras for their work. Their work being significantly better than my own, I'm not one to critique, this is just what I've seen.


If you're using the most common mount, which admittedly Canon has, and you're not shopping around for the cameras that are going to give you the best bang for your buck, then what the heck are you doing? You can't really respond with anything other than brand loyalty or fanboyism. Especially considering that any cinema camera you buy is going to be your A cam, and your 5D will be a distance B cam.
I guess that depends on what 'bangs' you define best for your 'bucks'. I'd rate DPAF pretty high up there; Canon's f/1.2 AF lenses are incredible with DPAF, for example. No other combination is going to give you that look with that flexibility.
I would argue no one "needs" it.
I think at that point that you'd be arguing against potential R5 buyers.
Well then we're moving goal posts and switching scenarios.
That's really the scenario that I've been speaking toward; I'm not trying to compare the R5 against ARRIs, though that comparison will almost certainly be conducted by The Potato,
 

UnknownSouljer

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Alright. We've taken over this thread long enough. I'll give you last word. I won't reply if you reply to me. As frankly this discussion should at this point be taken to PM. If I'm compelled to say anything else I'll just PM you. That way people can discuss other stuff perhaps more relevant directly to the R5 (or R6 or A7S3). Which is a class leading camera in terms of specs, albeit with some incredibly inherent flaws that really can't be overlooked.

In terms of sensor and image quality, not in terms of the body itself. Not even close.

Well, they do share a mount, after all. But that's about it. Very different cameras all around.
Then that speaks to their ability to make a mirrorless body that is weather sealed. It's clear they've been having engineering issues and technical issues for some time. Up to and now including the R5 and R6. Only their 1 series has remained "spotless". But even they have issues. Notably rolling shutter in stills modes when using the digital shutter. The same in their 5.9k video modes. And their inability to make their RAW modes any more lightweight. But I digress. It will be interesting to see an R5 endurance test. Maybe to your point the 5D won't have a successor (since apparently top-notch weather sealing is the determining factor)? Maybe its truly dead.

When speaking about Minolta, much of their inspiration has not filtered down to Sony's mirrorless ergonomics, and Sony's menus are... special. That's not bias, that's what basically every review from a cross-platform user or site has said with respect to Sony in the context of the R5 and R6.
Right. But you set the camera up once and you more or less never have to see them again. In terms of using the camera on a day to day basis and how it works and operates in the hand, since the inclusion of the thumb-stick, Sony cameras have been excellent.
I don't deny menu hell. It's definitely there. But it doesn't really affect day to day usage of the camera. Unlike other problems.

WIthout question! I've never claimed the opposite, and have been regularly tempted to grab a Sony body and a few lenses for my own amatuer uses. I'm currently tempted to grab a decent used A7R II for product and macro work, literally just for the resolution...
With how much you care about AF, I'd recommend moving up to the A7RIII for the vastly improved AF. The A7RII is more than adequate in 'decent' lighting, but the bodies that came afterwards can gain focus lock using continuous AF easier in dark situations. Unless of course you're manually focusing everything for your macro work.

Including Canon. Canon's 1" camera point and shoots, and most if not all of their smaller point and shoots, use Sony sensors.
Site your source. I'm 99.999% sure Canon makes all of their own sensors. Their primary market is imaging. Even to the point of copiers, x-ray machines, and selling sensors to NASA. I have seen zero evidence that they source any sensor technology from any third party.

Their technology is dominant, their sales are not, and their brand cache is trailing. That said, I have not tried to 'invalidate Sony as a relevant tool'. Granted personally, I'd take almost any brand before Sony, but that's more to do with Sony's lack of focus on ergonomics and workflows that competitors such as Nikon, Fuji, and even our dear Olympus have had nailed for quite some time. The Panasonics S1H, despite its limitations, absolutely embarrasses Sony cameras in terms of being designed to actually be used for work. Fuji's cameras are just very impressive all around, and if any company has ergonomics, menus, and overall workflow down better than Canon, it's Nikon.

Wild, I know, that someone would sell and A7R III in order to pick up a 5D IV, or pick up a 5Ds instead of a new A7R IV for landscape shooting, and yet folks have done it, usually after tiring from the gymnastics needed to get good files out of the Sony cameras for their work. Their work being significantly better than my own, I'm not one to critique, this is just what I've seen.
Sony's sales are absolutely dominant. You haven't been paying attention to the marketplace at all.
Canon has been in decline since the 5D2 in 2008. At that point it had no true competitors. But every camera since like the 5D3 in 2012 has been met with decline.
First it was just Nikon. The D800 was so overwhelming in comparison to the 5D3, most balked at it's much lower resolution, much worse DR, and much worse AF. Nikon's video features had also caught up.
By the time the 5DIV dropped in 2016 Canon was underwater.
The A7RII came out in 2015 and absolutely shattered every specification and every performance metric in comparison to the 5D3. The D810 had also already done similar in 2014.
And meanwhile Sony gobbled up the entire bottom end with the class leading A6300 which came out in 2016.

The 5DIV was supposed to be the camera the righted the course. But with very underwhelming 1.73 cropped 4k anyone looking for a true hybrid system (such as myself) had to go elsewhere. Otherwise pay the high price for the 1DXII.

If you want anecdotal evidence, you can look at the existence of the EOS R. The whole point of that camera was to be a stop gap. Hopefully that mirrorless camera would catch on while the 5D failed in the marketplace. Obviously it wasn't just about mirrors versus no mirrors. The R also was a sales failure.

This isn't conjecture either. This is what happened. The A7III more or less ate any lunch that either Nikon or Canon could come up with, and in fact did more in sales than the other major competition combined. Especially considering that the A7III launched at a price $500 lower than the R.
Canon doesn't release their sales data. Neither does Sony. So here is some "more than anecdotal proof":
BCN reports the Sony A7III sells more than the competition combined (Canon R, Canon RP and Nikon Z6)
https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/bcn...ition-combined-canon-r-canon-rp-and-nikon-z6/

Additionally Canon and Nikon both with their entrants into the dslr market continued to make less money year over year:
Canon Imaging Profits Down Over 50% in Q3/2019
https://fstoppers.com/news/canon-imaging-profits-down-over-50-q32019-422461
https://petapixel.com/2019/05/10/canon-and-nikon-imaging-sales-drop-17-over-past-year/
http://thenewcamera.com/canon-profit-up-in-q1-of-2018-digital-camera-sales-down-upto-8/

here is an article from 2015 tracking the beginning of the downward trend for Canon and Nikon: https://improvephotography.com/3544...port-how-much-trouble-are-canon-and-nikon-in/
It's interesting because it talks about Canon being dominant in terms of marketshare at the time. But even still in 2015 Canon was declining in terms of sales by double-digit percents.

As for anecdotal proof. I haven't seen a 5D4 in the wild since it was launched 4 years ago and I met a guy that wanted to be the first 5d4 project in 4k with one. Never released said project, but essentially being forced to use a 24mm for all of your basic shots limited it and the R significantly. People aren't and weren't buying these things in any real number. I just shot a project last weekend with another guy in a fairly major non-profit in LA (big enough that they have corporate sponsorship). The great irony was that he was using a Canon 24-70mm f/2.8L II on a Sigma MC-11 Adapter on a Sony A7III. His secondary camera was either an a6500 or a6600 that he used for gimbal work.
I haven't even seen a Canon R or RP in person. Let alone in the wild.

People like Colby Brown: https://www.colbybrownphotography.com/
Glynn Dewis https://glyndewis.com/?v=79cba1185463
Sean Tucker https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_43mQmHwHPTBBqImFrWU3Q
And plenty of others have moved from Canon to Sony as stills shooters. Anyone that has wanted more than 20MP and more than 12 stops of DR has been using an A7R for a good long while. And that is without question. You talk like Sony doesn't know what they're doing with color. They do, they have for a good long while. I'm guessing you haven't had eyes to see it, or were unaware of all the people shooting on it.

...really? The 5D IV is everywhere. It remains the market standard for its type, in terms of sales and in terms of market representation doing work. I even see more affluent amatuers jumping back to Canon for the 5D IV just for Canon's system, lenses, color...
You might find a few people moving from A7III's to 5DIV's. But I guarantee two things: that they are stills shooters only. And that all of them combined are less than a fraction of a single percent (and that has to do with just straight up sales numbers alone).
Canon has notoriously the lowest DR for a very long time. And they have had no high mega pixel options since the 5DS/R, which has really low DR (comparatively) and the 5D3's "not great" AF system.
Canon's lenses are great. No doubt, but Sony/Zeiss lenses are no slouch. And again, neither is the color a major distinguishing factor. I haven't found that Sony is any more difficult to get good color out of than Canon was. But you know what has been a real change? Having 2 more stops of latitude to pull up in shadows and highlights and hold an image. That's something that my 5D3 could never do and that made a real difference in editing. When I finally pulled open an A7RII file that I had shot it made me realize what people were talking about when they brought up cameras like the D800 and D810 and A7R. The DR and nice files out of these cameras have mattered far more than any perceived (as in: its in your head) color advantage.

Having a fan, and thus intake and exhaust, is a compromise of weather sealing and overall robustness. Such a solution has its advantages of course, and it has its disadvantages.
Namely functioning as intended.
And lack of robustness isn't one of the issues with having a fan if engineered properly. If it was, then prop airplanes would have big problems. As would propellers in boats. Or hell anything with moving parts that's exposed to the elements. It's all in how its built.

I guess that depends on what 'bangs' you define best for your 'bucks'. I'd rate DPAF pretty high up there; Canon's f/1.2 AF lenses are incredible with DPAF, for example. No other combination is going to give you that look with that flexibility.
Clearly.
Sony's eye-AF and focus lock on it has been class leading and it was a tool available to Sony users long before Canon had a similar solution. If Sony had a f/1.2 lens, I would have zero doubts it would more than keep up with Canon (despite how much your rave about DPAF). Especially in regards to still shooting. They don't have an f/1.2, so point goes to Canon for having an f/1.2 lens. And for what it's worth I really enjoyed my 50mm f1/.2L for as long as I had it. But the truth is f/1.2 is highly specialized and it's incredibly rare to want to shoot anything that wide open unless you're looking for that look or you're really trying to avoid background and background detail. Even that said, you'd have an awfully hard time differentiating between the Canon f/1.2L and the Zeiss f/1.4. I'm confident enough in that that if I did just take a stack of images both of them shot wide open without a "side by side" comparison (as in both lenses shooting the same thing the same way with the same composition and settings), I would argue it's likely that you wouldn't be able to guess which is which past margin of error.

EDIT: Also if all you want an f/1.2 for is stills, the many adapters such as the MC-11 and Metabones still allow for eye-af and excellent focus lock with that lens on newer Sony bodies such as the A7III, A7R3, and A7R4. So you could still have that if you want it. For video it would be much less optimal, but I'd say you wouldn't want to use it for that purpose anyway, as it will have significant breathing enough to be distracting especially if you're talking about a shot that racks focus.

I think at that point that you'd be arguing against potential R5 buyers.
That's really the scenario that I've been speaking toward; I'm not trying to compare the R5 against ARRIs, though that comparison will almost certainly be conducted by The Potato,
I brought up cinema cameras because this thing almost costs $4k. If you're serious about video you could either buy a used cinema camera for that price or a few other options for relatively not much more. The reason why you and other people are going bonkers for this camera is video features. And frankly if that's the argument then you should just continue shooting stills on whatever camera you have and invest in a cinema camera. Frankly it's probably better that you have two cameras rather than one. Especially if that single camera isn't really able to use its video features for an extended period anyway. Any of those systems will give a much nicer pictures despite being "1/4 the resolution". Especially also considering that there is virtually no 8k display penetration on the market what-so-ever. You're right though that not everybody is interested in investing in a cinema camera despite being better than an mirror-less system in every way that matters (including, again, image quality). And for those folks, again, there are more than half a dozen options that work and don't have overheating problems.

So I would say that Canon's options argue against Canon's options. The R and the RP are underwhelming. The R5 can't shoot for more than 20 minutes while in ideal conditions in any of its attention grabbing modes. And the 1DX costs twice as much as any other camera albeit with otherwise a sterling reputation.
To reiterate the same stuff over again. It doesn't matter if the R5 is capable of double its current specs. If it isn't usable it doesn't matter. The DPAF could read your mind and lock on to everything exactly as you want it with zero human interaction, but if it overheats after 20 minutes, then requires 10 minutes of cooldown time for another 3 minutes of shooting then it doesn't matter (which by the way is what Canon states). You end up getting the camera that is actually reliable. Ironically not Canon the camera company you've been arguing is.

I have no doubt the R5 will be a great stills camera. As will the R6. But the issue is now the market wants full hybrid systems. If they didn't then Canon wouldn't have lost the market-share that they have in the first place and companies you've brought up before like Fuji (which makes absurdly good stills cameras with excellent ergonomics) would be significantly more dominant. If the R5 can find a work around for its overheating issues then it will be the best all-around system on the market. No caveats or addendum from me (well I guess except if the Sony A7S3 magically has better specs, but I expect it will be more conservative. Ironically Canon and Sony seem to be switching places in terms of reliability, conservatism, and spec war). But that's a huge "if" they can solve that problem. And considering that Canon themselves have released a statement with tables and charts discussing exactly what modes overheat and which don't and for how long on each, it tells me that Canon has known about this problem for a while and they aren't exactly on their way to being able to fix it either. Otherwise they would simply say that instead of giving a chart.

To close, we're going to find out what the long awaited A7S3 has in store. It's full announcement date is coming at the end of the month on the 28th. Then the competition will really heat up. No longer with Canon be able to compete with a two year old camera (The A7III), they'll be forced to deal with Sony heads up. Last time that went poorly (the Canon R released in the same period). Hopefully it'll go better for them this time around.
 
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IdiotInCharge

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To close, we're going to find out what the long awaited A7S3 has in store. It's full announcement date is coming at the end of the month on the 28th. Then the competition will really heat up. No longer with Canon be able to compete with a two year old camera (The A7III), they'll be forced to deal with Sony heads up. Last time that went poorly (the Canon R released in the same period). Hopefully it'll go better for them this time around.
The bigger challenge with the A7S III will be whether Sony manages to make it a competent stills camera, not just in terms of image quality, but also in terms of ergonomics and workflow. Version II was excellent at high-ISO no doubt, but with color filter arrays in play one would hope for four sensor pixels per video output pixel to really sharpen things up and provide a clean signal. At least, for a video camera in a stills camera form-factor, that's what I'd be looking for.
With how much you care about AF, I'd recommend moving up to the A7RIII for the vastly improved AF. The A7RII is more than adequate in 'decent' lighting, but the bodies that came afterwards can gain focus lock using continuous AF easier in dark situations. Unless of course you're manually focusing everything for your macro work.
AF need only be accurate, for stills subjects, really. My wife uses my 6D tethered on occasion and it has absolutely clunky live view AF, but as with most CDAF-only solutions it doesn't miss. Her 77D with DPAF is more or less instant. Mostly, an A7R II could be set up for the purpose directly, and the resolution is there. I'd settle for an A7R if not for that wacky mechanical shutter... that thing made me jump the first time I heard it in person!
 

IdiotInCharge

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So the details on the A7S III are out...
  • Sony appears to have taken a significantly more sincere stab at unfucking their menus
  • They've taken a halfassed but welcome step toward making their UI fully touch-capable
  • Of course, it's still 12MP
  • Readout speed has improved, but there is still has some rolling shutter
  • No internal RAW video
  • ...have to use the touchscreen to initiate AF tracking...?
  • Somehow, the DPReview crew felt that the R5 was the better 'hybrid camera', which makes a bit of sense....
Standouts for me:
  • Higher framerates
  • More gradable lossy video
  • Plenty of options in terms of codecs
  • Video AF looks pretty good! (though still not DPAF-solid)
  • Overheating concerns not really relevant
 

UnknownSouljer

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Messages
6,558
So the details on the A7S III are out...
  • Sony appears to have taken a significantly more sincere stab at unfucking their menus
  • They've taken a halfassed but welcome step toward making their UI fully touch-capable
  • Of course, it's still 12MP
  • Readout speed has improved, but there is still has some rolling shutter
  • No internal RAW video
  • ...have to use the touchscreen to initiate AF tracking...?
  • Somehow, the DPReview crew felt that the R5 was the better 'hybrid camera', which makes a bit of sense....
Standouts for me:
  • Higher framerates
  • More gradable lossy video
  • Plenty of options in terms of codecs
  • Video AF looks pretty good! (though still not DPAF-solid)
  • Overheating concerns not really relevant
The op was already updated before this post. But from what I can tell, the mini doc on the A7SIII went a lot better than the same guy attempting one on the R6.

As far as mini review from Cinema5D show, there is virtually no rolling shutter (check links in op). They showed a freeze frame of literally a train going by and it's incredibly hard to discern if any (they drew a straight vertical line in the frame). Which makes this camera likely well under 10ms of rolling shutter. Not enough to be seen even in scenes with insane motion. And this is all on pre-production hardware. The launch for the camera isn't until September (which seems like a shame to have to wait that long after already waiting 5 years).

The A7S3 is the king for people that want a video focused camera. It makes far more sense than any other option. If you're a content producer and/or you're primarily focused on video then this is the only camera you need. There isn't a need for more than its 12MP if the only photos you ever publish are on a website or Instagram. And its true 1:1 4k video although not having the 'sharpness' of some down-sampled cameras, will match up handily to cameras like the FS7 while having much better motion than the R5, BMPCC 4k/6k, and S1H, all of which show significant amounts of rolling shutter. Basically there is no bastion left to any other video focused camera. This as a package, to me, kills the S1H, the GH5, GH5S, and BMPCC. Some of those are more expensive, some less, but the combination of features is not met in any other camera.

This camera is purpose built and Sony have at long last really made a camera that makes sense from all angles and is balanced. If you want only a single camera that excels at both stills and videos in equal measure than honestly you're better off with a camera like the R6 (provided it doesn't overheat in the scenarios you need it for) or the A73 or A7R3 or R5 depending on whether or not 8-bit video is "enough". Sad to say though, it's feature of not overheating (we'll see, Sony has fibbed about not overheating before too) might be the biggest deal. Still, that doc was all shot on it without issue and summer in Tokyo outdoors isn't cool by any stretch. So, I'm guessing it's just fine.
EDIT: Gerald Undone had no issues in 32C ambient weather. And Kai only did after shooting 120fps for over an hour (which was a torture test). It's safe to say that it takes a huge amount of abuse to die from overheating. It's far more likely that the battery will die first.

EDIT: Also found this:
and:
and:
 
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IdiotInCharge

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Messages
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As far as mini review from Cinema5D show, there is virtually no rolling shutter (check links in op). They showed a freeze frame of literally a train going by and it's incredibly hard to discern if any (they drew a straight vertical line in the frame). Which makes this camera likely well under 10ms of rolling shutter. Not enough to be seen even in scenes with insane motion. And this is all on pre-production hardware. The launch for the camera isn't until September (which seems like a shame to have to wait that long after already waiting 5 years).
It was easily discernable with quick pans... better, but still noticeable.
The A7S3 is the king for people that want a video focused camera.
Very much so! Looks like the perfect 'gimbal camera'.
There isn't a need for more than its 12MP if the only photos you ever publish are on a website or Instagram.
This assumes no cropping, meaning no mistakes and always having the perfect focal length for the composition.... so no :)
And its true 1:1 4k video although not having the 'sharpness' of some down-sampled cameras
Yeah, I don't really agree with 'true 1:1 4k' with a color filter involved. Which is why 'down-sampled' cameras can be sharper, as you note. With current 'color' sensor technology, one would need 4x sensor pixels to be 'true' to output; Canon's 8k downsampled to 4k is a great example of this.
If you want only a single camera that excels at both stills and videos in equal measure than honestly you're better off with a camera like the R6 (provided it doesn't overheat in the scenarios you need it for) or the A73 or A7R3 or R5 depending on whether or not 8-bit video is "enough".
I feel that the R5 pretty much takes the cake as a hybrid / all-purpose camera, as well it should, as that is its design purpose. I also feel that Canon made compromises for stills shooting that resulted in the video limitations we're seeing, and honestly, I'm okay with that. We'll likely see the same basic advancements seen in both companies' releases pushed up and down their respective lineups; I expect a future 'EOS R1' to likely be a bit of a pinnacle with respect to hybrid shooting, and the next A9 to bring similar advancements.
 

Auer

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Honestly the Nikon Z5 looks pretty good. Decent choices all around.
I might pick one up and hang it by the door as a grab when youre leaving camera.
The NIKKOR Z DX 16-50mm f/3.5-6.3 VR would make it a nice combo.
( I don't shoot video, I started as a cameraman back in the day on a Ikegami setup and had my fill)
 
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