The NYC Subway Runs On Technology That Is Nearly 100 Years Old

Megalith

Megalith

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Hey, it may be severely old and outdated, but the equipment that runs the NYC subway manages to exude a certain beauty. Still, a massive undertaking is required to deal with an increasing ridership and safety issues.

As anyone who lives in New York City knows, the subway is far from perfect, but it's frankly incredible it works at all with this ancient equipment.
 
Eh no worries, subway systems that are 100s of days old can just as many, if not more, problems. Old mechanical switches very often are superior if they are properly maintained.
 
Ancient? That's only the 1950s. Try some Victorian (1890s) Era Underground (subway) like in London.

The older the kit is, the more I'd trust it. That 1950s bit of kit in NY is going to still be there working well in another 50 years time. Won't be able to say that about any of the IT kit you currently have on your desk.

Old kit was made to a different quality level. Modern kit is all about cheapest option, cheapest bidder, cheapest construction.

Newer is not always better.

I still use a 1940s multimeter. Big dials also look cool.
 
BlueMeanie said:
Ancient? That's only the 1950s. Try some Victorian (1890s) Era Underground (subway) like in London.

The older the kit is, the more I'd trust it. That 1950s bit of kit in NY is going to still be there working well in another 50 years time. Won't be able to say that about any of the IT kit you currently have on your desk.

Old kit was made to a different quality level. Modern kit is all about cheapest option, cheapest bidder, cheapest construction.

Newer is not always better.

I still use a 1940s multimeter. Big dials also look cool.
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I totally agree, most older gear was designed back when engineering tolerances were huge since they didnt have accurate mtbf and statistical computer models to permit minimal cost manufacturing. Components were expensive so durability actually mattered. Even slightly old circuits with 1mm wiring and discrete components using soft lead solder seem to survive much better than the rohs stuff with surface mount components where just the right flex from thermal expansion breaks everything. I have tons of working appliances from the 80s but I'm hesitant to replace since them since the newer stuff simply isnt as reliable, even if they are more power efficient, because they die in about 3-5 years and require an oven or reflow equipment to fix simple problems. Its funny but In a fallout scenario, we really would revert to 60s era technology because the newer stuff would be so much more susceptible to emp and environmental factors, and impossible to build from scratch.

For the nyc system, i imagine the designers were among the very brightest in the generation, good design and strategy can beat newer technology if speed and processing wasn't a requirement.
 
Sertis said:
I have tons of working appliances from the 80s but I'm hesitant to replace since them since the newer stuff simply isnt as reliable, even if they are more power efficient, because they die in about 3-5 years and require an oven or reflow equipment to fix simple problems. Its funny but In a fallout scenario, we really would revert to 60s era technology because the newer stuff would be so much more susceptible to emp and environmental factors, and impossible to build from scratch.
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Yeah - very much this. Is it really "power efficient" if it has to be replaced more often?

The other problem is that there are so many extra pointless features added that also go wrong. I had a 1980s washing machine which inside could not have been more basic. Speed controller and motor. Simple. The modern replacement is a scary selection of computing and sensors which just setup so much more to go wrong.

Pop the hood of a modern car, now stick your classic 1980s motor next to it and pop that hood. Which one has a recognisable engine? Which one is full of pointless computers? Which one can be fixed with a bit of bent wire and gaffa tape?

Its one of the things I like about [H]. A tech mad site surfing the cutting edge of computing, but slap in the middle it is run by guys who own proper old skool cars. Bet there is none of those daft computers under their hoods.
 
That was a really cool video. I would totally watch an hour long documentary on that old tech they have running that.
 
sfsuphysics said:
Eh no worries, subway systems that are 100s of days old can just as many, if not more, problems. Old mechanical switches very often are superior if they are properly maintained.
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Perhaps, but if it can't keep up with the increased usage, then it's got to go at some point and that system is heavily used. Driving in NYC sucks. In many cases, it's the slowest way to get from Point A to B. Bikes and trains generally compete for fastest mode...walking is generally 3rd or last
 
BlueMeanie said:
Yeah - very much this. Is it really "power efficient" if it has to be replaced more often?

The other problem is that there are so many extra pointless features added that also go wrong. I had a 1980s washing machine which inside could not have been more basic. Speed controller and motor. Simple. The modern replacement is a scary selection of computing and sensors which just setup so much more to go wrong.

Pop the hood of a modern car, now stick your classic 1980s motor next to it and pop that hood. Which one has a recognisable engine? Which one is full of pointless computers? Which one can be fixed with a bit of bent wire and gaffa tape?
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It seems like we build our systems out of modules these days, and each component adds a few extra unneeded features, but each has it's own MTBF. It's like switching from a simple 6TB drive to 3x 2TB drives in an proprietary LVM volume set because it's 20% cheaper to source those 2TB drives in bulk, and we can save a bit of energy by only spinning up one 1-platter spindle at a time. Then each drive adds monitoring, we add logging and raid manager tool, email notifications and call it a day, since we only offer 1 year of warranty, and we'll buy another software package from the lowest bidder next year.

It's a good thing that firearms are basically designed around the same mechanisms of the last 75 years and haven't tried to get all fancy with the electronics and .. oh wait!
 
Anyone know which line goes to Shell Beach?
 
BlueMeanie said:
Pop the hood of a modern car, now stick your classic 1980s motor next to it and pop that hood. Which one has a recognisable engine? Which one is full of pointless computers? Which one can be fixed with a bit of bent wire and gaffa tape?
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clearly you have never seen an 80s engine.
 
I used to work on old speed control systems like that. Everything from US&S AR to US&S EH type. Now it's all computerized. As a matter of fact, I'm teaching speed control class this all this week. US&S (Ansaldo) ASES.
 
BlueMeanie said:
Yeah - very much this. Is it really "power efficient" if it has to be replaced more often?

The other problem is that there are so many extra pointless features added that also go wrong. I had a 1980s washing machine which inside could not have been more basic. Speed controller and motor. Simple. The modern replacement is a scary selection of computing and sensors which just setup so much more to go wrong.

Pop the hood of a modern car, now stick your classic 1980s motor next to it and pop that hood. Which one has a recognisable engine? Which one is full of pointless computers? Which one can be fixed with a bit of bent wire and gaffa tape?

Its one of the things I like about [H]. A tech mad site surfing the cutting edge of computing, but slap in the middle it is run by guys who own proper old skool cars. Bet there is none of those daft computers under their hoods.
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All those 80's cars on the roads shows you how well built they were. /s

On average age of cars owned in the USA has reach 11.5 years. That's not because of stuff that was designed in the 70s.

Unless you enjoyed constant spark plug changes, carb adjustment, lubing every joint, etc etc.

Todays modern cars are built far better and will last far longer then any pos built in the 80s.
 
Nimisys said:
clearly you have never seen an 80s engine.
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My current car was built in 1998. Still low mileage as only just gone past 100,000. With various other cars owned and maintained since I started with my first car that had been built in 1972. I have certainly seen and fixed 1980s engines. When that 1972 motor was scrapped it had 300,000 miles on it and was still going strong. Only scrapped due to rust. Engine and gearbox went to another car to continue running.

Newer is not always better. Just because something has a big list of "features" doesn't mean they always help when things go wrong... it just becomes another expensive part to go wrong.


One down side of this is the modern day mechanic who is trained up by the Big Name Manufacturers is not a true engineer anymore. They are a computer tech support guy who can read diagnostic codes which tell them which part to replace. They are trained to always trust the diagnostics computers. The traditional mechanic who can tell you what is wrong with you car by listening to it is becoming a rare breed.
 
BlueMeanie said:
My current car was built in 1998. Still low mileage as only just gone past 100,000. With various other cars owned and maintained since I started with my first car that had been built in 1972. I have certainly seen and fixed 1980s engines. When that 1972 motor was scrapped it had 300,000 miles on it and was still going strong. Only scrapped due to rust. Engine and gearbox went to another car to continue running.

Newer is not always better. Just because something has a big list of "features" doesn't mean they always help when things go wrong... it just becomes another expensive part to go wrong.


One down side of this is the modern day mechanic who is trained up by the Big Name Manufacturers is not a true engineer anymore. They are a computer tech support guy who can read diagnostic codes which tell them which part to replace. They are trained to always trust the diagnostics computers. The traditional mechanic who can tell you what is wrong with you car by listening to it is becoming a rare breed.
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If you work on cars, then sure, older cars are easier to tinker with (i.e. less tech). But on average, cars last longer now than they did then. I've got 200k on a 98 Toyota and the main issue it needs a paint job. It's lasted significantly longer than my 80's cars. Actually it's lasted longer than all my other cars (one late 70's the others from the 80s) combined.
 
opfreak said:
All those 80's cars on the roads shows you how well built they were. /s

On average age of cars owned in the USA has reach 11.5 years. That's not because of stuff that was designed in the 70s.

Unless you enjoyed constant spark plug changes, carb adjustment, lubing every joint, etc etc.

Todays modern cars are built far better and will last far longer then any pos built in the 80s.
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My car is over 27 years old and still runs great,
formula1.jpg
 
I used to Auto-X it before my joints went to shit, now I can't even get in my car, and struggle getting into normal cars.
acu4-oct05.jpg
 
but it's frankly incredible it works at all with this ancient equipment.
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What a dumb thing to say. You could apply the same statement to 'the wheel'.
 
I totally wish we could go back to the surgical and anesthetic medicine of the 1950's. No computers, automation, sterility, statistics, insurance companies, nothing between you and death. Ahh, the glory days.

I'd take that tech over these new fangled devices. Survival is for the weak.
 
Well its about time they update the system to a modern computer controlled infrastructure that isnt on a closed system. Gotta get with the times and be hackable like everything else.
 
That's awesome and pretty crazy most of those relays are still working. Stuff in those days was built to last though, now most of the stuff is made in China and only made to last till at least the warranty.
 
Red Squirrel said:
That's awesome and pretty crazy most of those relays are still working. Stuff in those days was built to last though, now most of the stuff is made in China and only made to last till at least the warranty.
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no it wasn't built to last. It was built to be maintained. Because it needs tons of attention.
 
Liver said:
I totally wish we could go back to the surgical and anesthetic medicine of the 1950's. No computers, automation, sterility, statistics, insurance companies, nothing between you and death. Ahh, the glory days.

I'd take that tech over these new fangled devices. Survival is for the weak.
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I think you are mistaking a desire for the durability, simplicity, and longevity of items built in a past era, for the desire to toss all new tech to the curb..

This thread seems more full of the former.
 
If it works, not broken, and gets the job done, I would not change it.
 
BlueMeanie said:
Yeah - very much this. Is it really "power efficient" if it has to be replaced more often?
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And you have hit in the fallacy of many modern power saving products.

If you look at the entire energy usage (mining, manufacturing, shipping, lifetime usage, repair, disposal) many of these modern energy efficient products actually end up using MORE energy due to their short life span.

I had a washer I finally had to replace after 30 years, While the new one is nice, I highly doubt it will last even half that long. The small amount of energy savings will likely never come close to the cost of the new machine.

My central Air/Heater is 40 years old, but the cost of replacing it is so high, that it would take 20 years of energy savings to break even. Make more sense to just keep using it until something major goes out.
Now if I live where the weather isn't as mild as it is here in Southern California, then it might be a different story :)
 
I think Stuxnet was good proof that sometimes old switches lamps and relays are your best option
 
The electrical concepts are still modern like relays and such but the electronics themselves are just old. Could be worse lol
 
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