The NUCs are back in town

[UnknownSouljer]

Apple isn't using premium components, apple is a software company, you are paying for the software.

How is last generation even premium?

Apple only sells Pro Software to a minimum of the market. Those pieces of software are: Final Cut Pro X, Compressor, Motion, and Logic X. Their OS is free. Their competitors to Microsoft Office software (Pages, Numbers, Keynote) is also free.
Their trillion dollar valuation didn't come from selling software. It all came from selling hardware. Namely the iPhone.

But more to the point, you're ignoring that every piece of hardware that Apple sells is a custom design. Up to and including custom IC's. Such as the ARM chip and more and more micro-controllers inside their machines that they manufacture (namely all of their sensor tech and the ARM derived T2 chip).
Obviously Intel Processors and AMD GPU's come from OEM's, but things like their MPX module do not. It is incredibly reductionist to the point of being flat out wrong that they aren't a hardware vendor.

I would agree, generally, that this Intel NUC is inline with what it takes to manufacture custom tech such as this. Intel have done something incredible, it's just the sticker shock of what it takes to do that isn't in most people's budgets. As has also been noted in the thread, if you want something of similar specs using regular hardware it can be done for roughly half the cost. So, it's up to the consumer to decide if custom hardware and incredibly small package size is worth it.

Well, I was going by architecture, core count and clock speed. By those metrics, the 9900 (non k) seems pretty close.

9980hk: 9th Gen, 8C/16T, Base 2.4ghz, Turbo 5.0Ghz
9900 (non K): 9th Gen, 8C/16T, Base 3.1ghz, Turbo 5.0Ghz

So, the non-k 9900 has a higher base clock, but other than that, it was the closest I could find.

I'm guessing boost is kept lower by an electronic 45w TDP limit though, where the non-K 9900 is 65w TDP

So yeah, the non-K 9900 is likely a bit faster, but I was being generous.

9980HK is a mobile chip. That's the major difference. It's getting used in Apple's Macbook Pro 16" and the previous generation Apple Macbook Pro 15" (late 2019 model).
Performance (or lack there of) is due to the reduction in clock speed. But provided the chip was cooled properly it should be capable of keeping its dynamic clock speed up, something it isn't necessarily as capable doing inside a small laptop chassis.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Apple only sells Pro Software to a minimum of the market. Those pieces of software are: Final Cut Pro X, Compressor, Motion, and Logic X. Their OS is free. Their competitors to Microsoft Office software (Pages, Numbers, Keynote) is also free.
Their trillion dollar valuation didn't come from selling software. It all came from selling hardware. Namely the iPhone.

But more to the point, you're ignoring that every piece of hardware that Apple sells is a custom design. Up to and including custom IC's. Such as the ARM chip and more and more microcontrollers inside their machines that they manufactuer (namely all of their sensor tech and the ARM derived T2 chip).
Obviously Intel Processors and AMD GPU's come from OEM's, but things like their MPX module do not. It is incredibly reductionist to the point of being flat out wrong that they aren't a hardware vendor.

I've always seen Apple as a hardware vendor, but there are many sides to hardware. Where those of us on these forums tend to care more about the computing capability of the hardware, Apple's emphasis has alwasy been on the industrial design. Make it sleeker, rounder, smoother, shinier, if necessary at the cost of computing capability. The software they provide with the hardware is also a major component of what they sell OSX and IOS are a large part of what makes an Apple product an Apple product.

As far as their custom internal designs go, I am not impressed. I had the misfortune of servicing an old Discrete Macbook Pro once. I'm used to working on Dell Latitude laptops. Everything inside has custom molded brackets, screwed in place, is professionally laid out and looks like it was designed with a purpose.

Setting aside that the MacBook was a bloody disaster to service due to its design (I know it was not intended to be user serviceable) once inside I was pretty astonished by how poorly designed it was. There was none of the clean, custom designed bracketing I was used to from dell. Parts, like the mini wlan card were wrapped in plastic and tucked in a corner between the wall of the case and other parts. It was honestly a mess. Maybe they ahve gotten better since, but at that time I was REALLY not impressed. There was nothing premium about the inside of a 2006 MacBook Pro at all...

 

[UnknownSouljer]

Setting aside that the MacBook was a bloody disaster to service due to its design (I know it was not intended to be user serviceable) once inside I was pretty astonished by how poorly designed it was. There was none of the clean, custom designed bracketing I was used to from dell. Parts, like the mini wlan card were wrapped in plastic and tucked in a corner between the wall of the case and other parts. It was honestly a mess. Maybe they ahve gotten better since, but at that time I was REALLY not impressed. There was nothing premium about the inside of a 2006 MacBook Pro at all...

It might be more interesting to check out teardowns on iFixit then.
Mac Pro 2019
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Mac+Pro+2019+Teardown/128922
Macbook Pro 16"
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+16-Inch+2019+Teardown/128106
2017 iMac Pro
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iMac+Pro+Teardown/101807

I linked these 3 systems in particular, because they create the arguement against purely form over function. These models show the direction of Apple to take performance and cooling seriously. You can read elsewhere about these systems, but the iMac Pro as an example, and Macbook Pro 16" both expanded their cooling system immensely in comparison with previous systems. As a result, they don't throttle. The iMac Pro in particular is impressive because it doesn't throttle and still remains virtually whisper quiet, even with the 18-Core Xeon and 64X Vega.
I would describe Apple as having a design of a place for everything and everything it its place with a great emphasis on having everything laid out symmetrically and form fitting next to other parts. As you described it: not really user serviceable at all (except in some very specific cases such as RAM and HD's in certain models).
I am surprised to hear about your experience with the 2006 Macbook Pro though. Generally the "fat books" were pretty easy to work on. I had a 2008 15" (original style), and a 2010 13" Unibody, both of which I found to be easy enough to work on. Certainly to replace HDD's and upgrade RAM anyway (and in the case of the 2010, replace a speaker that had broken).


As for other comments about Apple hardware, those were directed at Verge. Hence the two quotes.

 

[cjcox]

NUC i11 prototype. Hulk Canyon RFF (reduced form factor).

 

[RazorWind]

A question I've had that I haven't seen an answer to is, can you plug the NUC board into a PCI-E slot on another machine? Like, is that connector actually a PCI-E x16 connector, or did they just make it that shape for cost reasons, and it's actually totally different?

I'm not sure why one would want this, but it seems like such an obvious thing if it's that shape...

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

A question I've had that I haven't seen an answer to is, can you plug the NUC board into a PCI-E slot on another machine? Like, is that connector actually a PCI-E x16 connector, or did they just make it that shape for cost reasons, and it's actually totally different?

I'm not sure why one would want this, but it seems like such an obvious thing if it's that shape...

I'm not 100% sure, but there were reports of these compute units going around before the news of this NUC, suggesting they might be used as streaming boxes inside a larger PC, so maybe?

If they do work that way, I don't think they would pass any data across the PCIe slot in that configuration though. It would likely just be for power. And since an x16 board cna draw 75W, that should be enouhg for the compute unit and its mobile 45w TDP CPU.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

A question I've had that I haven't seen an answer to is, can you plug the NUC board into a PCI-E slot on another machine? Like, is that connector actually a PCI-E x16 connector, or did they just make it that shape for cost reasons, and it's actually totally different?

I'm not sure why one would want this, but it seems like such an obvious thing if it's that shape...

I'm not 100% sure, but there were reports of these compute units going around before the news of this NUC, suggesting they might be used as streaming boxes inside a larger PC, so maybe?

If they do work that way, I don't think they would pass any data across the PCIe slot in that configuration though. It would likely just be for power. And since an x16 board cna draw 75W, that should be enouhg for the compute unit and its mobile 45w TDP CPU.

Here, found it.

I believe this answers your question.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Lol. Looks like the Core i5 version is priced at $1000...

 

[cjcox]

Lol. Looks like the Core i5 version is priced at $1000...

What else would you spend your COVID-19 check on, though?

 

[1_rick]

Performance (or lack there of) is due to the reduction in clock speed. But provided the chip was cooled properly it should be capable of keeping its dynamic clock speed up, something it isn't necessarily as capable doing inside a small laptop chassis.

I have a Skull Canyon NUC with the 6770HQ or whatever the model number is. The single-core boost clock is 3.5GHz, IIRC, and it has a blower fan that is kind of loud but keeps the thing "cool enough" that it can maintain its boost clock for sustained periods. The downside is that the chip regularly hits 90+C, but Intel claims that's within spec.

It looks like the new NUC has a slightly beefier cooling system, so hopefully it can keep the boost clocks up. I haven't watched the Gamers Nexus video yet.

 

[cjcox]

Guess who just got back today
Those 14nm boys that had been away
Haven't changed that much to say
But man, I still think them cats are cheesey

They were askin' if you were around
How you was, where you could be found
Told 'em you were livin' Ryzen town
Drivin' the Intel execs crazy

The NUCs are back in town
(The NUCs are back in town)
The NUCs are back in town
(The NUCs are back in town again)

You know that IPC that used to clock a lot
Every day it'd be clocking one core, till it got really hot
Wished it could stay cool and not throttle a lot
I wish I were dreamin'

And that time over at AMD's place,
Well, vega got up an slapped UHD's face
Man, we just lost a lot of our face
If we can't win, time to forget it.

The NUCs are back in town
(The NUCs are back in town)
The NUCs are back in town
(The NUCs are back in town)
The NUCs are back in town
(The NUCs are back in town)
The NUCs are back in town
(The NUCs are back in town again)

Spread the word around
Guess who's back in town
Just spread the word around

Demo night they'll be dressed to thrill
In a back alley in lower Cupertino
The synthetics will wow and graphs appeal
And if they want to lie, you better let 'em

That juice box in the corner by my favorite bong
CPU is getting hotter, it won't be long
Won't be long till the winter is gone
Now that the NUCs are here again

The NUCs are back in town
(The NUCs are back in town)
The NUCs are back in town
(The NUCs are back in town)
The NUCs are back in town
(The NUCs are back in town)

Spread the word around

The NUCs are back in town
(The NUCs are back in town again)
The NUCs are back in town again

Been hangin' down at ebay
The NUCs are back in town again

 

[1_rick]

Guess who just got back today
Those 14nm boys that had been away
Haven't changed that much to say
But man, I still think them cats are cheesey

OMG that's hilarious. I laughed out loud.

 

[Ready4Dis]

I think it depends on what you give up.

It may be smaller, but it will likely also sound like a freaking hair dryer when the fans spin up.

That, and I've never quite understood the SFF craze. As mentioned previously, I tried it out back in 2009, because I thought it was really cool to cram a full featured desktop PC into a tiny case, but then living with that thing practically was not ideal. Cooling was inefficient and loud, custom power supply meant that I was limited in which GPU's I could upgrade to (my GTX580 never worked) limited expansion made me want to tear my hair out when I had need to add more drives/PCIe cards and even though the case was tiny for its time (Shuttle SX58H7) it actually wound up using more of the space I cared about than a traditional medium tower. The SFF case used some of my precious desk space which is always running out, whereas when I later upgraded back to a mid tower, I could just tuck it under the desk and forget about it.

Anyway, I can see someone wanting to pay a slight price premium for a compact design, but this is more than a slight price premium. So the price does not include GPU, RAM or drives, so essentially you are paying over $1600 for just CPU, motherboard, Case, Power Supply and what amounts to a box cooler.

So, equivalent desktop parts would be:
- Intel i9-9900 (non-K): ~$420
- Z390 ATX Motherboard: ~$185
- ATX Mid Tower Case: ~$90
- Power Supply (650W, Gold or better) ~$125

Total: ~$820.

So, just about double the price for the percieved convenience of the small package.

Sure, there might be people willing to pay that price premium for this, but I'd imagine they are probably quite the minority...

I like he my mitx... Takes up so much less space, aio cooler and almost silent. It's just a 1600 with a Radeon they nano, games pretty well.

 

[Verge]

But more to the point, you're ignoring that every piece of hardware that Apple sells is a custom design. Up to and including custom IC's.

They've started making GPUs, but you do realize anyone can make an ARM chip right? Like you just license the cores from ARM. People buy iphones because OSX on iphone is light years better than andriod, and it has been since the 3g came out.

The hardware is often behind samsung, they still sell. It's a software company.

It is incredibly reductionist to the point of being flat out wrong that they aren't a hardware vendor.

Please re-read my quote 25 times, and then show me where is aid apple wasn't a hardware vendor. Put the strawman down.

 

[vegeta535]

What else would you spend your COVID-19 check on, though?

Guns.

 

[Verge]

Guns.

If you qualify for a check, and are gonna drop that much money on a PC, you should probably take a personal finance class.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

but you do realize anyone can make an ARM chip right?

Apple is designing their CPUs. Like AMD with x86, they're only licensing the ISA. This is a really big point vs. other mobile ARM designs.

The hardware is often behind samsung, they still sell.

Designs manufactured by Samsung, but wholly Apple IP.

It's a software company.

I'll contest that they don't invent much, but I won't contest that they innovate like crazy, primarily in terms of integrating technology.

 

[Spun Ducky]

The Quartz canyon version that is xeon and quadro makes total sense for drop in cad boxes. This gaming version doesn't really make sense at this price even though it is small. I love my nucs and have 3 of them. The 2 i7 8559u are no slow at all but only quad core. You can now get a hex core frost canyon one for 600 bucks or so. Something I tried out with my gtx 1080 auros gaming box was strapping the i7 nuc to it and it ends up smaller than this thing at much less cost. I just can't see much of a reason to go this route outside of the cad model at these prices when you can build a pretty similar machine with a frost canyon nuc and egpu.

 

[vegeta535]

If you qualify for a check, and are gonna drop that much money on a PC, you should probably take a personal finance class.

Why? I qualify for the check. It is free money for me. I been working the entire time. Not everyone is struggling atm.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

This only makes sense as a proof of concept -- first of its kind, etc. Intel meant to kick off a bit of a craze with the first 'NUC' and quite well succeeded, even Dell and HP make similar systems using 'U' CPUs.

However, unlike the NUC, this doesn't make much sense with ITX in the mix.

 

[Verge]

Why? I qualify for the check. It is free money for me. I been working the entire time. Not everyone is struggling atm.

if you make less than 75,000, i don't think 3,000 on a gaming computer is a wise financial decision. Probably better to just buy a normal tower for 1/2 that.

 

[Verge]

Apple is designing their CPUs. Like AMD with x86, they're only licensing the ISA. This is a really big point vs. other mobile ARM designs.

Designs manufactured by Samsung, but wholly Apple IP.

I'll contest that they don't invent much, but I won't contest that they innovate like crazy, primarily in terms of integrating technology.

I think were saying the same thing. I'll settle it for the other guy from the man himself.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

Atoms don't even have AES-NI, so it will be far less for them.

A bit of pedantry, so only for correction: There are plenty of 'Atom' CPUs with AES-NI. If you switch the search to the Pentium family, you'll find many 'Atom-class' embedded products that support AES-NI as well.

[reason I know: I have one]

 

[IdiotInCharge]

I think were saying the same thing. I'll settle it for the other guy from the man himself.

That's pretty much ended with his death, though. In order to make mobile 'work' and to pursue the niches that Apple believes will motivate buyers, they've become increasingly more a hardware company too.

Now, in general, I don't disagree; however, the performance advantage they've seen in the mobile market has come from tight integration between hardware and software development.

 

[Red Falcon]

A bit of pedantry, so only for correction: There are plenty of 'Atom' CPUs with AES-NI. If you switch the search to the Pentium family, you'll find many 'Atom-class' embedded products that support AES-NI as well.

[reason I know: I have one]

All the way back to 2013 no less... well damn, I stand corrected.
Appreciate the info and link, too!

 

[Krazy925]

if you make less than 75,000, i don't think 3,000 on a gaming computer is a wise financial decision. Probably better to just buy a normal tower for 1/2 that.

I mean I think that’s strongly subjective to where you live.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

I mean I think that’s strongly subjective to where you live.

Yeah, way too many people (including our Government) take earnings as an absolute without factoring in local cost of living.

Around my neck of the woods you probably need a household with two $125K+ earners to live the lifestyle of the TV sitcom "middle class" family.

Yet there are parts of the country where $50k is a high salary....

 

[UnknownSouljer]

They've started making GPUs, but you do realize anyone can make an ARM chip right? Like you just license the cores from ARM. People buy iphones because OSX on iphone is light years better than andriod, and it has been since the 3g came out.

I think a lot of people would disagree with you about whose software is better.

More to the point: ARM, like idiotincharge noted, licensing an ISA is very different than designing a chip. And Apple's chips are by far the fastest in comparison with every other handset manufacturer. And it's due to their chip design. Apple has been ahead of Samsung as an example in pure speed by 33%+ for several years. And that isn't due to software.

The hardware is often behind samsung, they still sell. It's a software company.

Please re-read my quote 25 times, and then show me where is aid apple wasn't a hardware vendor. Put the strawman down.

If you're saying that because Samsung fabricates portions of Apple's hardware makes Apple a software company that doesn't make any sense either.
AMD I guess makes nothing then as TSMC manufacturers all of their processors and GPUs.

Apple produces some software as noted before. But integration is more how they make their money far more than simply saying "software". I stand by my statement that it is very reductionist.

This is your statement:

Apple isn't using premium components, apple is a software company, you are paying for the software.

How is last generation even premium?

You can argue that I'm attacking a stawman, but if so, you haven't added any clarity to your stance.

===

On topic, Apple does use premium integrated components in their hardware and it looks like both Microsoft with Surface and Surface studio as well as Intel with the NUC are doing the same.

 

[Krazy925]

Yeah, way too many people (including our Government) take earnings as an absolute without factoring in local cost of living.

Around my neck of the woods you probably need a household with two $125K+ earners to live the lifestyle of the TV sitcom "middle class" family.

Yet there are parts of the country where $50k is a high salary....

I moved from upstate NY back to the Bay Area.

Needing like 7x the pay was kinda wild. Way more toys.

 

[SOAREVERSOR]

A couple of things you can tell right off--this is a customized motherboard, because it has that PCIe edge connector instead of an actual slot. Also, from screenshots, it isn't laid out like a standard desktop motherboard. While that's not going to justify the price in itself, it's going to raise it. Then again, there's already lots of really expensive motherboards, and this one is pretty loaded for mITX.

And it's not as if people don't buy $3000+ laptops, either, or places like Falcon NW wouldn't exist.

This! Also I have a skull canyon and a hades canyon. The skull canyon is a nice VM box I can transport from home to work to do things on and it's completely worth the cash. Hades canyon is nice as well. There's a lot of custom things in these things that do not come cheaply and they are niche low volume products customized to hell and back, that doesn't come cheaply and justifies the price far more than a lot of the blinged out or roided up components that are in my ATX liquid cooled full tower.

I'll get this as well. 32gb, optane boot drive, nvme storage, an nvidia 3070 itx style when those come out. I've been using a schitt external dac for a while and will use that.

Yeah, way too many people (including our Government) take earnings as an absolute without factoring in local cost of living.

Around my neck of the woods you probably need a household with two $125K+ earners to live the lifestyle of the TV sitcom "middle class" family.

Yet there are parts of the country where $50k is a high salary....

120-150 is the average income here and you aren't buying a condo without two people. below six figures is going to be scraping by. Also a lot of Trumps policy has just been to screw over the places that didn't vote for him which includes all the real places that drive the economy where you need a lot of money to get by.

 

[sabrewolf732]

NUC i11 prototype. Hulk Canyon RFF (reduced form factor).

hahahah thanks for making me spit out coffee

 

[Verge]

If you're saying that because Samsung fabricates portions of Apple's hardware makes Apple a software company that doesn't make any sense either.

Apple is a software company. They make hardware yes, but they are a software company.
Microsoft is a software company, they make hardware yes, but they are a software company.
Amazon is a retail company, they make hardware yes, but they are a retail company.
Square is a software company, they make hardware yes, but they are a software company.

Like dude how many times do i have to do this? I'm not replying on this chain any longer, it's long past the point of being stupid.

 

[Verge]

Yeah, way too many people (including our Government) take earnings as an absolute without factoring in local cost of living.

Around my neck of the woods you probably need a household with two $125K+ earners to live the lifestyle of the TV sitcom "middle class" family.

Yet there are parts of the country where $50k is a high salary....

Eh, that's not really what i mean. Like regardless of how low the cost of living is, 3,000 dollars is over 10% of your income, like you probably shouldn't be dropping that on a luxury computer. Just a thought, i'm not other people's boss.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Eh, that's not really what i mean. Like regardless of how low the cost of living is, 3,000 dollars is over 10% of your income, like you probably shouldn't be dropping that on a luxury computer. Just a thought, i'm not other people's boss.

Meh,

Everyone has different priorities in life, and as long as they aren't putting themselves at risk of not being able to pay their rent/mortgage/bills/debt it's none of my business.

If the cost of living is low enough that it fits in their budget, and that's how they want to spend their money, that's their right as free Americans

 

[cjcox]

It is about "value". And value can be about career growth... can be about happiness. I took an economics class...

 

[The Mad Atheist]

No thanks, ever regular NUCs are pricey to me, let alone the 1.7k tag for a bare bones(haven't seen that term in awhile back in the early 2000s days with the Tiger Direct days, looking at their kits....).
You can get a full blown system for that price in a little larger box.

 

[cjcox]

Yeah, NUCs are "cute", but that's about it. You can do much much better with just about anything else. And save a whole lot of money.

 

[Twisted Kidney]

HOLY SCHNIKEYS! That's a lot of scratch!

 

[Algrim]

Guns.

I have enough (well, who really has enough?) guns but I'm increasing my ammo supply.