The next NCASE project: a Steam Machine-style case (indeterminate)

[wahaha360]

This may already have been answered, but why dont you just flip the GPU so it sucks air from the top instead? that would allow for smaller feet too.

Also I would not buy this case if it has components outside the case, I hate powerbricks.

Flipping the GPU = using longer flexible risers = significant extra cost and reliability concerns.

Said it before, we don't like external power bricks. Never considered external power bricks and will not.

 

[mTECHIE]

Necere and wahaha360, how is the project coming along so far?

 

[wahaha360]

Necere and wahaha360, how is the project coming along so far?

Necere doesn't feel motivated, I can't motivate him, you guys try.

I think we have 2-3 brackets left to design, so he just needs to focus for a few days.

 

[Necere]

That's a bit of an oversimplification. You have to think about even the smallest things carefully, and there's a million little decisions that have to be made. How do I best balance cost vs. complexity on how this part is designed? How does doing something one way affect how this other part needs to change? Will doing it this way create any problems with parts fitting? What about installation? Is this going to be strong enough? Is this going to cause some problems for us down the line that will be difficult to correct? Who am I going to piss off by not supporting this or that feature? Is this component restriction to strict? And so on.

It's a difficult process if you want to do it properly, and yeah, it can be hard to muster up the motivation and focus to work on it by yourself. Especially so since the engineering side of things isn't something I particularly enjoy. I have no formal education as an engineer (or as a designer, for that matter). I do the technical detail work because there's no one else to do it, basically.

Apart from the difficulties of the design process, I'm not totally happy with the flexATX power supplies I tested. The likeliest candidate for this project is the 400W gold-rated flex by FSP, but even with some custom work they did on the fan curve for us, the noise profile isn't quite where I'd like it be. The overall sound level isn't bad at all, but the fan has as distinctive - though quiet - chattering or fluttering sound to it at idle, which changes to a mild buzziness under load. It reminds me of the sound of an AIO pump (though to be clear, not an air-in-the-loop sound). I assume it's caused by the ball bearings the fan uses, so we're seeing about getting a different fan to test in the unit, that will hopefully offer some improvement.

 

[wahaha360]

He is trying to do too much in prototype 1.

I have more modest goals for a prototype, because I know there will be several protoype revisions.

 

[neocmetal]

Flex atx too loud? Why not just use internal hplex psu? It makes no noise.

 

[Nathan Spears]

That's a bit of an oversimplification. You have to think about even the smallest things carefully, and there's a million little decisions that have to be made. How do I best balance cost vs. complexity on how this part is designed? How does doing something one way affect how this other part needs to change? Will doing it this way create any problems with parts fitting? What about installation? Is this going to be strong enough? Is this going to cause some problems for us down the line that will be difficult to correct? Who am I going to piss off by not supporting this or that feature? Is this component restriction to strict? And so on.

It's a difficult process if you want to do it properly, and yeah, it can be hard to muster up the motivation and focus to work on it by yourself. Especially so since the engineering side of things isn't something I particularly enjoy. I have no formal education as an engineer (or as a designer, for that matter). I do the technical detail work because there's no one else to do it, basically.

Apart from the difficulties of the design process, I'm not totally happy with the flexATX power supplies I tested. The likeliest candidate for this project is the 400W gold-rated flex by FSP, but even with some custom work they did on the fan curve for us, the noise profile isn't quite where I'd like it be. The overall sound level isn't bad at all, but the fan has as distinctive - though quiet - chattering or fluttering sound to it at idle, which changes to a mild buzziness under load. It reminds me of the sound of an AIO pump (though to be clear, not an air-in-the-loop sound). I assume it's caused by the ball bearings the fan uses, so we're seeing about getting a different fan to test in the unit, that will hopefully offer some improvement.

Hang in there, Necere. I know a lot of people are eager to see another Ncase after such great success with the M1.

 

[wahaha360]

Flex atx too loud? Why not just use internal hplex psu? It makes no noise.

i don't want to create unnecessary panic towards Flex fan noise.

The overall fan noise is ok, we are just trying to get rid of, what we believe, the bearing noise on the fan (it's a ball bearing fan).

We are getting a new fan for the Flex, it uses FDB (fluid dynamic bearing) that you find in Noctua fans, we are hoping that will resolve the issue.

Flex atx too loud? Why not just use internal hplex psu? It makes no noise.

Waiting for it to arrive for testing.

 

[neocmetal]

i don't want to create unnecessary panic towards Flex fan noise.

The overall fan noise is ok, we are just trying to get rid of, what we believe, the bearing noise on the fan (it's a ball bearing fan).

We are getting a new fan for the Flex, it uses FDB (fluid dynamic bearing) that you find in Noctua fans, we are hoping that will resolve the issue.




Waiting for it to arrive for testing.

I'm all for flex if it doesn't sound like a jet engine taking off

 

[wahaha360]

If we reverted by to the older LRPC design with SFX, it will save us a lot of trouble and time, much more likely to succeed as product as well.



Internally, we talk frequently about chicken or the egg problem around limited selection of Flex PSU and Mini GPUs (higher performance).

Earlier SFX PSUs had noise issues too, but as SFX got more popular, those issues were addressed in new products.

So it's important for the SFF community that we create cases in order to bring attention to Flex PSU and Mini GPUs, so in the future, we will get more selection.

Keep an open mind and give Flex PSU a chance.

 

[Necere]

He is trying to do too much in prototype 1.

I have more modest goals for a prototype, because I know there will be several protoype revisions.

The point is to get as much worked out before ever getting a prototype made. Invariably there's going to be things that can't be foreseen and will need to be changed once you have a prototype, but you want to reduce those as much as possible in the pre-prototype phase, or else you risk problems compounding. There's also things that are unpredictable, like the factory screwing up. Remember when Lian Li got the M1 files and messed up by leaving out the PCI bracket cutouts at the back edge, so I couldn't even install a card to test it without Dremeling it out myself? Or the ATX PSU bracket that was flipped from the way it's supposed to be? Finalize as much as you can in CAD first, then get a prototype made. Otherwise you're just wasting money and time.

We are getting a new fan for the Flex, it uses FDB (fluid dynamic bearing) that you find in Noctua fans, we are hoping that will resolve the issue.

Noctua uses their own maglev/fluid bearing that they call SSO. FDB is a sleeve-type fluid bearing, which is supposed to have a longer life than regular sleeve bearings, but less noise than ball bearings.

Anyway, in FSP's most recent email they're saying they've tested the FDB fans we've asked about, and they found them to still have problems. Instead, they're going to send us a Delta fan (original and FDBs are Protechnic) to test, which seems to still be ball bearing.

 

[wahaha360]

The point is to get as much worked out before ever getting a prototype made. Invariably there's going to be things that can't be foreseen and will need to be changed once you have a prototype, but you want to reduce those as much as possible in the pre-prototype phase, or else you risk problems compounding. There's also things that are unpredictable, like the factory screwing up. Remember when Lian Li got the M1 files and messed up by leaving out the PCI bracket cutouts at the back edge, so I couldn't even install a card to test it without Dremeling it out myself? Or the ATX PSU bracket that was flipped from the way it's supposed to be? Finalize as much as you can in CAD first, then get a prototype made. Otherwise you're just wasting money and time.

I also remember we spent too much time on the original LRPC details, once the prototype arrived, we scrapped the entire project due to heat problems - which is difficult to assess without a physical product. Maybe the right decision is somewhere in between.

However, I don't think we are wasting money, 1) we will get store credit on the prototyping cost when we reach a certain quantity, 2) in my opinion time is more expensive than prototyping cost

 

[darksable]

Jesus. I haven't wanted to say anything, because it's totally not my place, but this is getting a little silly.

Guys? I suggest that you both take a break. Walk away for a day or two, chill off, and think about the reasons that you're working together in the first place.

Right now you're bickering worse than a high-school band, and that's neither going to do good things for your working relationship, nor let this project ever see the light of day.

 

[wahaha360]

Jesus. I haven't wanted to say anything, because it's totally not my place, but this is getting a little silly.

Guys? I suggest that you both take a break. Walk away for a day or two, chill off, and think about the reasons that you're working together in the first place.

Right now you're bickering worse than a high-school band, and that's neither going to do good things for your working relationship, nor let this project ever see the light of day.

lol, we fight all the time, it happened frequently during the M1 process, the prior LRPC also.

Chaos and conflict is part of the creative process.

 

[Deleted member 222586]

Jesus. I haven't wanted to say anything, because it's totally not my place, but this is getting a little silly.

Guys? I suggest that you both take a break. Walk away for a day or two, chill off, and think about the reasons that you're working together in the first place.

Right now you're bickering worse than a high-school band, and that's neither going to do good things for your working relationship, nor let this project ever see the light of day.

On the contrary.

The way I see it, they agreed to form a partnership so long as they could do their part of the business without the other directly interfering. Their attitude is what made the M1 so good. Why? Because if you are complacent... you never get better, never improve. And by doing it in public, they might get some new ideas.

Also... I'm pretty sure... wahaha360 is bored to death (and wants to make some money) and has been for the past few months (if you check, some time ago he would barely write anything because he was sourcing some new manufacturers).

Necere, isn't any brooming to be done? I see some dust on the corner over there... I'm sure wahaha360 can get stuff going xD at least he won't have as much time to be pestering you.

Joking aside...

That's a bit of an oversimplification. You have to think about even the smallest things carefully, and there's a million little decisions that have to be made. How do I best balance cost vs. complexity on how this part is designed? How does doing something one way affect how this other part needs to change? Will doing it this way create any problems with parts fitting? What about installation? Is this going to be strong enough? Is this going to cause some problems for us down the line that will be difficult to correct? Who am I going to piss off by not supporting this or that feature? Is this component restriction to strict? And so on.

It's a difficult process if you want to do it properly, and yeah, it can be hard to muster up the motivation and focus to work on it by yourself. Especially so since the engineering side of things isn't something I particularly enjoy. I have no formal education as an engineer (or as a designer, for that matter). I do the technical detail work because there's no one else to do it, basically.

Apart from the difficulties of the design process, I'm not totally happy with the flexATX power supplies I tested. The likeliest candidate for this project is the 400W gold-rated flex by FSP, but even with some custom work they did on the fan curve for us, the noise profile isn't quite where I'd like it be. The overall sound level isn't bad at all, but the fan has as distinctive - though quiet - chattering or fluttering sound to it at idle, which changes to a mild buzziness under load. It reminds me of the sound of an AIO pump (though to be clear, not an air-in-the-loop sound). I assume it's caused by the ball bearings the fan uses, so we're seeing about getting a different fan to test in the unit, that will hopefully offer some improvement.

You are right and, at the same time, you are wrong.

By trying to be as efficient as possible.. you are boring yourself to death. It happens to me in very different scenarios, specially in those tedious tasks that I need to do but don't want to.

So, if you can.. get a prototype done. Yes, you will have to do a heck of a lot of modifications. You are right. But once you see your baby in the flesh... you will get motivated and will have something to work on. So, it will help you focus.

BTW. Why don't you make a prototype with a 3D-printer? By this stage either you or wahaha360 have to know somebody who could make a prototype without much trouble. At least you will have something to mount your stuff and have a more general idea of what it will look like. You can't make thermal tests on something made of a completely different material but you can test how mounting would be without spending a thousand dollars and waiting weeks to get a prototype.

---

Now, on the pragmatical side of things.

When you talk about the psu being loud... compared to what? At which loads? I believe that you require to have a prototype of your case to test this because... well, I'm pretty sure that if you put 350W worth of components into your case, I'll be damned if the noisiest thing in your computer is that lousy fan on the FSP psu you mention. It might be, but it might not. It is all about perspective, and though you might feel that the psu is useless by itself... I have yet to find a 200W gpu that isn't much louder than anything else I have in my computer.

Now, if noise is a problem in idle... then we are talking about something different. But I had a Silverstone SFX 450W that was noisy as hell on my very well ventilated ATX case...until I put it into the M1 and all the other fans would silence her completely. Perspective...

He is trying to do too much in prototype 1.

I have more modest goals for a prototype, because I know there will be several protoype revisions.

The point is to get as much worked out before ever getting a prototype made. Invariably there's going to be things that can't be foreseen and will need to be changed once you have a prototype, but you want to reduce those as much as possible in the pre-prototype phase, or else you risk problems compounding. There's also things that are unpredictable, like the factory screwing up. Remember when Lian Li got the M1 files and messed up by leaving out the PCI bracket cutouts at the back edge, so I couldn't even install a card to test it without Dremeling it out myself? Or the ATX PSU bracket that was flipped from the way it's supposed to be? Finalize as much as you can in CAD first, then get a prototype made. Otherwise you're just wasting money and time.

Noctua uses their own maglev/fluid bearing that they call SSO. FDB is a sleeve-type fluid bearing, which is supposed to have a longer life than regular sleeve bearings, but less noise than ball bearings.

Anyway, in FSP's most recent email they're saying they've tested the FDB fans we've asked about, and they found them to still have problems. Instead, they're going to send us a Delta fan (original and FDBs are Protechnic) to test, which seems to still be ball bearing.

What rpms are those fans operating at? 'Cause the bearing by themselves (though important) don't mind everything.

 

[wahaha360]

...Also... I'm pretty sure... wahaha360 is bored to death (and wants to make some money) and has been for the past few months (if you check, some time ago he would barely write anything because he was sourcing some new manufacturers).

Necere, isn't any brooming to be done? I see some dust on the corner over there... I'm sure wahaha360 can get stuff going xD at least he won't have as much time to be pestering you.

Hahaha, I am bored

On a more serious note, this is X number of time mfgs have asked me for update, I'm tired of telling them I don't know.

I always liked making money, these projects didn't changed me I also live in NYC, it's just expensive here, you really have to be rich to not think about money living here.

If I were to do it for money, I would just mfg the originally LRPC. Since it supports SFX PSUs, I'm willing to bet it will be more successful financially as a product. This PCX only supports Flex PSUs, which will def limit sales, so if anything, we are hurting ourselves financially to pursue this.

...in my opinion time is more expensive than prototyping cost

When I said this, I also meant scheduling and flying. I need to do QA for the first batch, so i need to fly to China. If I don't have *any idea on timing, last minute trips (if even possible with my schedule) are always more expensive than planned trips.

I also need to match timing to get mfg done by *preferred mfg (preferred mfg could care less about our business, our business = rounding error on a excel spread sheet for them).

 

[Deleted member 222586]

Hahaha, I am bored and looking for excitement.

On a more serious note, this is nth time multiple manufacturers have reached out to me about what we want to do, I'm just tired of telling people we are not ready.

Well, at least you know that when you become ready, there are companies out there more than willing to work for you.

BTW, I thought you mentioned some time ago about... sandblasted panels for the M1? How is that going? You plan to change suppliers for the M1? I'm bored of my case (Phanteks Evolv ATX), and it is simply too big, and I want some new hardware... so, I'll have to buy a new case. I'm pretty sure you are at least 6 months away for your next release, but sand-blasted panels for the M1 would do it for me (for the time being). Specially since I sold my V1 because I thought that, with enough time, the side panels might be too deformed to be used properly. Heck I can tell you that they weren't as when I bought it, simply because of the amount of times I dissassembled the computer.

 

[wahaha360]

Well, at least you know that when you become ready, there are companies out there more than willing to work for you.

BTW, I thought you mentioned some time ago about... sandblasted panels for the M1? How is that going? You plan to change suppliers for the M1? I'm bored of my case (Phanteks Evolv ATX), and it is simply too big, and I want some new hardware... so, I'll have to buy a new case. I'm pretty sure you are at least 6 months away for your next release, but sand-blasted panels for the M1 would do it for me (for the time being). Specially since I sold my V1 because I thought that, with enough time, the side panels might be too deformed to be used properly. Heck I can tell you that they weren't as when I bought it, simply because of the amount of times I dissassembled the computer.

M1 panels should arrive any day now.

I'm going to try and damage the panels, depending on how well it hold up, we will either offer it as a limited edition, or make M1 V6

 

[harsaphes]

Hahaha, I am bored

On a more serious note, this is X number of time mfgs have asked me for update, I'm tired of telling them I don't know.

I always liked making money, these projects didn't changed me I also live in NYC, it's just expensive here, you really have to be rich to not think about money living here.

NYC! Me too. Can I just walk over and pick one up?

 

[wahaha360]

NYC! Me too. Can I just walk over and pick one up?

Haha, I don't have the case, believe me I wished we were in production now.

Ever since we had access to MacBook like finishes, I been itching for a hackintosh build and maybe VESA mount this case on the back of my 32" monitor

BTW. Why don't you make a prototype with a 3D-printer? By this stage either you or wahaha360 have to know somebody who could make a prototype without much trouble. At least you will have something to mount your stuff and have a more general idea of what it will look like. You can't make thermal tests on something made of a completely different material but you can test how mounting would be without spending a thousand dollars and waiting weeks to get a prototype.

We had a meeting and agreed that I need progress for my sanity, so I will work on design details to make prototype 1. I just want to make sure there are no surprises / problems (which we had with LRPC).

 

[Nathan Spears]

Haha, I don't have the case, believe me I wished we were in production now.

Ever since we had access to MacBook like finishes, I been itching for a hackintosh build and maybe VESA mount this case on the back of my 32" monitor




We had a meeting and agreed that I need progress for my sanity, so I will work on design details to make prototype 1. I just want to make sure there are no surprises / problems (which we had with LRPC).

YESSSSS!!!!!!

I need a wonderful case like this and the VESA mount option would be a wonderful bonus. Count me in!

 

[Necere]

So I did a bit more testing and it turns out the noise that was bothering me in the FSP 400W Flex PSU isn't so much the fan bearings after all, but some kind of coil buzz/clatter that manifests during higher loads. Here's a recording I made of the sound:



Note that the 3DMark testing (and therefore the coil buzz) doesn't start until 1:18. I manually stopped the PSU fan periodically so we can be 100% sure it isn't the source of the sound. At idle with the fan stopped, the PSU is totally silent. At load, apart from the coil buzz, the sound of the fan isn't bad at all, though it does still have a bit of bearing noise (which doesn't come through that well in the recording). Remember this is with the microphone less than an inch from the fan intake.

 

[darksable]

Huh. Now that's interesting.

Do you think it's a common occurrence, or isolated to your sample?

 

[Necere]

Couldn't tell you, I haven't seen many other tests of this unit. Could be just this sample, or it could be this specific mix of hardware with this PSU.

 

[Nathan Spears]

So I did a bit more testing and it turns out the noise that was bothering me in the FSP 400W Flex PSU isn't so much the fan bearings after all, but some kind of coil buzz/clatter that manifests during higher loads. Here's a recording I made of the sound:

Note that the 3DMark testing (and therefore the coil buzz) doesn't start until 1:18. I manually stopped the PSU fan periodically so we can be 100% sure it isn't the source of the sound. At idle with the fan stopped, the PSU is totally silent. At load, apart from the coil buzz, the sound of the fan isn't bad at all, though it does still have a bit of bearing noise (which doesn't come through that well in the recording). Remember this is with the microphone less than an inch from the fan intake.

Would you call it coil whine? There's been reports of some coil whine from S4 Mini builds. I think in particular it's when running stress tests. Seems like these small PSUs are more susceptible to coil whine than their larger counterparts.

 

[Necere]

Would you call it coil whine? There's been reports of some coil whine from S4 Mini builds. I think in particular it's when running stress tests. Seems like these small PSUs are more susceptible to coil whine than their larger counterparts.

You can hear it for yourself. I normally think of coil whine as a high pitched noise, like in this video. The sound coming from this PSU sounds more like a tiny tractor is in there. But it behaves similarly to the more typical coil whine, changing depending on GPU load. For example, I was testing it with Dishonored 2, and I noticed it was worse when I looked at the water in game.

 

[darksable]

Yeah, a tractor is a good way of putting it.

That being said, that's a really, really weird noise to be coming from a power supply. I suspect it must be infested with ghosts.

 

[Ziths]

HDPLEX 300W Hi-Fi DC-ATX Power-Supply:
http://www.hd-plex.com/HDPLEX-300W-Hi-Fi-DC-ATX-Power-Supply-16V-24V-Wide-Range-Voltage-Input.html



HDPLEX Internal 300W AC-DC Adapter:



I'm just going to leave this here. Also, I prefer circular vent holes instead of square ones, just like Valve's Steam Machine...

PLEASE! ANYTHING BUT SQUARES!

 

[QuantumBraced]

I wonder if a 400W HDPlex AC-DC brick is possible without a fan and within reasonable dimensions.

 

[psurge]

Have you guys looked into VHF power conversion, as provided by e.g. FINsix? They are selling a tiny 65W laptop charger, but I'm not sure how ready/interested they would be in a higher power requirement application (and you'd still need something like the HDPlex DC-ATX board).

 

[wahaha360]

Making progress.

 

[mTECHIE]

Making progress.

MMmmm...looking good - I'd thought you and Necere doing away with the optical drive....

 

[Qrash]

MMmmm...looking good - I'd thought you and Necere doing away with the optical drive....

It looks like an opening for a tray loading optical drive which are much cheaper than the increasingly rare slot-loading ones. I know many here are against optical drives, bu tI'm okay with it.

 

[Necere]

HDPLEX 300W Hi-Fi DC-ATX Power-Supply:



HDPLEX Internal 300W AC-DC Adapter:



I'm just going to leave this here. Also, I prefer circular vent holes instead of square ones, just like Valve's Steam Machine...

PLEASE! ANYTHING BUT SQUARES!

I wonder if a 400W HDPlex AC-DC brick is possible without a fan and within reasonable dimensions.

Have you guys looked into VHF power conversion, as provided by e.g. FINsix? They are selling a tiny 65W laptop charger, but I'm not sure how ready/interested they would be in a higher power requirement application (and you'd still need something like the HDPlex DC-ATX board).

I'm not in favor of separate AC-DC/DC-DC adapters/boards, personally. They have lower wattage limits, cost more for the wattage, aren't typically designed for "peaky" power draw of a desktop system, and aren't standardized. We don't want to be in the PSU business (nor is it very feasible for us), and I don't want to be reliant on a single vendor for a proprietary PSU. Consequently, we need to design for a standard form-factor, like FlexATX or SFX.

 

[QuantumBraced]

I'm not in favor of separate AC-DC/DC-DC adapters/boards, personally. They have lower wattage limits, cost more for the wattage, aren't typically designed for "peaky" power draw of a desktop system, and aren't standardized. We don't want to be in the PSU business (nor is it very feasible for us), and I don't want to be reliant on a single vendor for a proprietary PSU. Consequently, we need to design for a standard form-factor, like FlexATX or SFX.

I think that's wise. And if anyone wants to use HDPlex in this case, it's a very easy mod with some velcro/double sided tape.

A bit of playing devil's advocate if I may (only because I love the product):

1) I don't know a lot about airflow/aerodymanics, but if I was to set the intake fans to a low RPM, and the GPU ramped up during play, or I was using a dual-fan card that fit, is it possible the card would start intaking from the exhaust vent if it's not getting enough air? Especially with the Flex ATX PSU eating up airflow? Or is that not possible with the exhaust vent being the only exhaust, i.e. if the card is not getting enough from the intake fans, it would just recirculate some of its own air? I'm having trouble imagining it.

2) Is the ODD bay back for good? Or do you plan on offering both versions? Would it be possible to use it as an additional 2.5" drive mounting spot? Generally do you plan on having additional SSD mounting locations elsewhere in the case or is there no room?

3) I can't tell from the render, but would the slim fans go on top of the bracket or under it? I had a crazy thought of moving the PSU to under the bracket, taking its cover off and 40mm fan out and using a thicker 120mm fan to cool it directly from the bracket to eliminate noise. Then you'd have room for a full-length card ready to receive all of that warm air And partially why I asked the question about additional 2.5" mounting points. How would you rate that on the insane mod scale?

4) Do you plan on including an option for mounting a 3.5" drive in place of the graphics card for people who want a non-gaming machine/NAS? Or is that such a niche use case that it's not worth it.

 

[wahaha360]

I think that's wise. And if anyone wants to use HDPlex in this case, it's a very easy mod with some velcro/double sided tape.

Since the concept and layout is done. I'm working on the manufacturing design now. I should know by next week if we can support both Flex and HD Plex AC-DC + DC-ATX.

1) I don't know a lot about airflow/aerodymanics, but if I was to set the intake fans to a low RPM, and the GPU ramped up during play, or I was using a dual-fan card that fit, is it possible the card would start intaking from the exhaust vent if it's not getting enough air? Especially with the Flex ATX PSU eating up airflow? Or is that not possible with the exhaust vent being the only exhaust, i.e. if the card is not getting enough from the intake fans, it would just recirculate some of its own air? I'm having trouble imagining it.

Leaving this one to Necere.

I2) Is the ODD bay back for good? Or do you plan on offering both versions? Would it be possible to use it as an additional 2.5" drive mounting spot? Generally do you plan on having additional SSD mounting locations elsewhere in the case or is there no room?

ODD is back. The front panel is removable, so we will likely offer both WITH ODD and NO ODD version - the only difference would be 1 panel.

Yes, the ODD space is too difficult for 2.5" HDD cables - so probably not. There will be at least 2x 2.5" HDD mounting locations, possibly more.

I3) I can't tell from the render, but would the slim fans go on top of the bracket or under it? I had a crazy thought of moving the PSU to under the bracket, taking its cover off and 40mm fan out and using a thicker 120mm fan to cool it directly from the bracket to eliminate noise. Then you'd have room for a full-length card ready to receive all of that warm air And partially why I asked the question about additional 2.5" mounting points. How would you rate that on the insane mod scale?

The slim fans go under the bracket, the top is for the filter.

I'm planning a build in this case with the following:
- 95W CPU
- full length 1080TI
- 3x 2.5" HDD
- 1x M.2 SSD
- open frame 450W PSU under the dual 120mm fans.

We will do some testing, then decide what we will officially support.

I4) Do you plan on including an option for mounting a 3.5" drive in place of the graphics card for people who want a non-gaming machine/NAS? Or is that such a niche use case that it's not worth it.

2x 3.5" HDD should be possible if NO GPU installed, but have to do some modeling to confirm.

 

[Necere]

1) I don't know a lot about airflow/aerodymanics, but if I was to set the intake fans to a low RPM, and the GPU ramped up during play, or I was using a dual-fan card that fit, is it possible the card would start intaking from the exhaust vent if it's not getting enough air? Especially with the Flex ATX PSU eating up airflow? Or is that not possible with the exhaust vent being the only exhaust, i.e. if the card is not getting enough from the intake fans, it would just recirculate some of its own air? I'm having trouble imagining it.

If the GPU really ramps up I think the main thing that might happen is that it will recirculate some of its own exhaust. It can't really pull air in through the exhaust vents, since the air coming into the case needs to go somewhere, and the only other exit is the small exhaust vents on the rear of the GPU bracket. The GPU would need to be ramped up pretty high for it to be moving more air through those small vents than is coming into the case through the two 120mm intakes.

 

[Qrash]

If the GPU really ramps up I think the main thing that might happen is that it will recirculate some of its own exhaust. It can't really pull air in through the exhaust vents, since the air coming into the case needs to go somewhere, and the only other exit is the small exhaust vents on the rear of the GPU bracket. The GPU would need to be ramped up pretty high for it to be moving more air through those small vents than is coming into the case through the two 120mm intakes.

Will Ncase be doing smoke tests to confirm the air flows as intended? I would love to see some photos or video of that.

 

[Necere]

Will Ncase be doing smoke tests to confirm the air flows as intended? I would love to see some photos or video of that.

I'm not sure how useful that would be. You'd see smoke going in and coming out, but what happens inside would largely be obscured by the components and chassis.

 

[Qrash]

I'm not sure how useful that would be. You'd see smoke going in and coming out, but what happens inside would largely be obscured by the components and chassis.

Why not use some plexiglass panels so that you could see inside? Also, do not use too much smoke or it will obscure what is happening. Anyway, it was just a thought. I hope you post some photos of the prototypes.