The next NCASE project: a Steam Machine-style case (indeterminate)

Have fun with the cables though :p
That's why I'm looking forward to new M.2 SSD's every day and I've been running with an single SSD as the only storage in my Ncase M1 for almost a year now, with all my file storage being in a 6-disk NAS.

SFF is all about compromise but to me shifting my local storage into a redundant network storage was more of an upgrade than a downgrade. And considering M.2 PCIe SSD's perform better than those clunky SATA 2,5" boxes, I'm always wondering why people force themselves with old habits in SFF.
 
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Lol yeah,its not as dead as people think :) I am after all in Africa. Its one of the reasons I got my sg05 for,over a V3+.
 
ODD's are obselete because nowadays you have USB sticks with more storage than any optical medium, they are easier to use and they are supported to boot from. Africa has nothing to do with it. It's just a habit to have certain things on plastic discs.

And if you really really really need an ODD for your computer in 2014-2015 and there is no possible way a USB stick is a solution, just get an external one.
 
They dont sell games in usb sticks round these parts. You could sell a phone without wifi and noone would notice its missing. And Nokia do,alot. Anyways,like I said,I could always stack it with the dvd and tv box, but it would be alot of stuff under the tv,and a big hassle to move my collection into a hard disk (and compress it too somehow)
 
They dont sell games in usb sticks round these parts. You could sell a phone without wifi and noone would notice its missing. And Nokia do,alot. Anyways,like I said,I could always stack it with the dvd and tv box, but it would be alot of stuff under the tv,and a big hassle to move my collection into a hard disk (and compress it too somehow)

Do you still have a huge collection of VHS cassettes?

Things get obsolet. If you can't live with the fact that a case doesn't have a optical drive, then that case just might not be it for you. By what argument would you force all other users to live with a (for them) useless hole in the case?

_________

Who buys games on dvds/blu-rays (installs it and then go through an update procedure) when it is faster to direct download the newest version of a game directly?
 
VHS cassettes have never fit in a PC and yes,some of my mum's james bonds are in VHS still,though I got her DVD's.
Again,other than my media collection,there are other conveniences of optical such as ready availabily and low price of dvd blanks, that make it ideal compared to usb sticks. I am not trying to force my way with the matter as you are implying,which is why I was willing to sacrifice GPU length for my niche need.It would be nice,and hes looking for opinions and that is mine.
 
Who buys games on dvds/blu-rays (installs it and then go through an update procedure) when it is faster to direct download the newest version of a game directly?

Sure it's quicker where you live, but African countries don't all have high speed internet yet. Unless Allan is at university, his bandwidth is likely to be well under 1 Mbps at home.
 
Do you still have a huge collection of VHS cassettes?

Things get obsolet. If you can't live with the fact that a case doesn't have a optical drive, then that case just might not be it for you. By what argument would you force all other users to live with a (for them) useless hole in the case?

_________

Who buys games on dvds/blu-rays (installs it and then go through an update procedure) when it is faster to direct download the newest version of a game directly?

Judging from the internal pictures that have been posted im sure the external slot can be optical.

I think it would be a nice option to have an odd installed in a lrpc.
Not everyone has access to Netflix etc.

I would still buy this without the odd most likely, just prefer it added instead of one of the 2,5".
Get a m.2 ssd And 2,5 hdd for storage :)
 
Wow. Those internal pics are even more sexy than the outside. So little wasted space. The engineer in me gets all warm and fuzzy inside. It doesn't even need side panels:)
I am actually warming up to the slotted side vents as well. It gives it more of a "aplifier-ish" look in horizontal position, which is great as a HTPC. It also allows for a good look inside when its standing upright. Being able to fit a full size GPU in this small a case is something worth showing off.
I would buy this as it is right now.

Not very original but S1 could be logical. Not that it really matters. Its not like you guys depend on a catchy name for marketing. "S" as for "Steam Machine". Or the "S" could be for "Small" and all of a sudden the M1 is "Medium":) Poor M1. keeping with the "1" kind of puts pressure on you guys to keep doing this forever though, as people will be expecting a "2" and a "3" at some point.
 
Wow. Those internal pics are even more sexy than the outside. So little wasted space. The engineer in me gets all warm and fuzzy inside. It doesn't even need side panels:)
I am actually warming up to the slotted side vents as well. It gives it more of a "aplifier-ish" look in horizontal position, which is great as a HTPC. It also allows for a good look inside when its standing upright. Being able to fit a full size GPU in this small a case is something worth showing off.
I would buy this as it is right now.

Not very original but S1 could be logical. Not that it really matters. Its not like you guys depend on a catchy name for marketing. "S" as for "Steam Machine". Or the "S" could be for "Small" and all of a sudden the M1 is "Medium":) Poor M1. keeping with the "1" kind of puts pressure on you guys to keep doing this forever though, as people will be expecting a "2" and a "3" at some point.

If we don't come up with something, I suppose S1 is a safety name...lol

Steam is associated with water, but since this case is not set up for WC, it's more like "air" than "steam".
 
And then we'll have the obligatory "when is the L1 coming out for mATX ???" ;)
 
If we don't come up with something, I suppose S1 is a safety name...lol

Steam is associated with water, but since this case is not set up for WC, it's more like "air" than "steam".

NCASE Air
NCASE (M1)
NCASE Pro
 

This would be nice name.

I would buy it, if you can somehow make it with options "no ventilation top" (could it be possible to build it so, that one could have gpu intake as top, so when not using gpu other than integrated, one could have topside with no ventilation holes) and "slotload odd frontpanel" (you know, again when not using gpu) extras. Naturally with extra cost.

ps. oh and black feet for black case.
 
I like it! Sign me up for one!

Just finished building my M1 as my main gaming rig / workstation, now it's time for something else to look forward to!
 
If I was going that route, I'd be more inclined to move the power/USB over to the other side of the divider, into the GPU compartment. That cuts down a bit on maximum GPU length, but it'd still be at least 10.5". Aside from that, my major objection is on aesthetic grounds.
Keep the power button and USB ports where they are. Simpler mechanically, much better aesthetically, maximum GPU length, nothing mucking up GPU chamber airflow, etc.

The fact that the industrial design guys are creaming over this thing right out of the gate should tell you everything you need to know. :)

I will say, however, that the USB ports need to be black, if possible. I'd also suggest making the top/bottom panel CPU/GPU cutouts identical, if possible. Having identical size/shape here works better aesthetically I think, plus it's a single die design come manufacturing time. If you make the side panels identical as well, the stand can be on either end.

Speaking of power, how about PicoPSU support? Have a small panel that replaces the IEC cord receptacle. This panel will have pre-stamped knockouts for both a mini-DIN panel mount and a barrel socket (either two separate cutouts or one of those circle-in-a-circle combo knockouts). Reach out to the Mini-box guys and see what they got for ya.

Cable management stampings to train that IEC cord into the position you got it drawn up in?

I'd also look into doing a larger cutout for the GPU power cables. Maybe one of those oval rubber inserts that blocks airflow, but has cable pass-through cutouts? Have the long side of the oval cover the entire height of the GPU. This should both give better airflow isolation and better support GPUs with PCIe power on the front of the card vs. top.

You guys with your antiquated spinning plastic discs :p
Stay far, far away from ODD on this one. Save ODD, mATX, and 12" GPU support for the "XL" version that will come after this one. It's beautifully clean as-is. "Less is more" and all that.

Water cooling? No, just no...

I've thought about this a bit. They can't be out to the very corners because of the side panels wrapping around, but there could still be four screws in the center section of the bottom panel. But then again, bigger gauge screws could work fine, too. Right now it's M4, where the rest of the screws around the case are M3.
Threaded stand inserts are the way to go. M6 thumb screws in their current location would be good (M4 may not be strong enough?). I'd also recommend rubber isolator pads on top of the stand that the thumbscrew goes through the center of.

[...inside pics....]
Wow. Those internal pics are even more sexy than the outside. So little wasted space. The engineer in me gets all warm and fuzzy inside. It doesn't even need side panels:)
I am actually warming up to the slotted side vents as well. It gives it more of a "aplifier-ish" look in horizontal position, which is great as a HTPC.
This thing is very much engineering pr0n, both inside and out. :) The industrial A/V look of the slots makes it as well.

Be careful here. SGI may still have a trademark on "O2" from their workstations back in the day.
 
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Will the top and bottom panels attach to the case with the same type of connectors that the M1 panels use? I prefer the tool-less design, like the ones in the M1, as they would be really easy to strip paint with conventional screws.
 
0LisClO.jpg

I would work on this configuration to make it a viable option for end users. It would require moving the power button and USB down, in between the rad and PSU, or below the PSU. It would also require enlarging the vents on the GPU side and opening a vented area on the other side panel for exhaust. Finally, it would require making the separator place a two-piece design.

I think it would be worth the effort, significantly differentiating the case from current offerings and yet-to-surface designs.
 
Will the top and bottom panels attach to the case with the same type of connectors that the M1 panels use? I prefer the tool-less design, like the ones in the M1, as they would be really easy to strip paint with conventional screws.

That wouldn't be secure enough for a stand. In fact you might even want threaded inserts where the top/bottom panels screw into the frame.
 
I would work on this configuration to make it a viable option for end users. It would require moving the power button and USB down, in between the rad and PSU, or below the PSU. It would also require enlarging the vents on the GPU side and opening a vented area on the other side panel for exhaust. Finally, it would require making the separator place a two-piece design.

I think it would be worth the effort, significantly differentiating the case from current offerings and yet-to-surface designs.
Being different just for the sake of being different is not what this case is about. A 120mm radiator also makes no sense with hardware like Scythe Big Shuriken 2 already being within four to six degrees of a Corsair Hydro H55.
Watercooling is not strictly better for every scenario, this is an example where it makes no sense.
And it wouldn't make it quieter either, adding a pump doesn't help noise.

So let's sum it up:
+ is different
+ some people think it's cool
- more noise
- less cooling efficiency
- more points-of-failure
- requires short GPU
- moderate internal redesign of the case
- specific support which CLC's fit (don't even try putting a seperate pump somewhere)
- costs more
- more installation difficulty
 
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So let's sum it up:
+ is different
+ some people think it's cool
- more noise
- less cooling efficiency
- more points-of-failure
- requires short GPU
- moderate internal redesign of the case
- specific support which CLC's fit (don't even try putting a seperate pump somewhere)
- costs more
- more installation difficulty
That and due to the (lack of) height available here you'd need right-angle fittings on the radiator itself to prevent hose crimping/cracking. I don't know of any pre-built AIO water cooler on the market with right-angle fittings on the radiator.
 
Judging from the internal pictures that have been posted im sure the external slot can be optical.

I think it would be a nice option to have an odd installed in a lrpc.
Not everyone has access to Netflix etc.

I would still buy this without the odd most likely, just prefer it added instead of one of the 2,5".
Get a m.2 ssd And 2,5 hdd for storage :)

I think it's very possible to fit an ODD offset to the bottom front of the case if you are using a short form factor card (~7 in.) 13 inches minus 7 inches leaves 6 inches of space for the ODD and its cables can be inserted with an angled connector.

The issue that seems to remain is that the ODD slot may not appeal to Necere's design vision and also you would have to provide an alternative front cover without the slot. What if there is no drive installed and someone tries to insert a disc into it? LOL
 
I think it's very possible to fit an ODD offset to the bottom front of the case if you are using a short form factor card (~7 in.) 13 inches minus 7 inches leaves 6 inches of space for the ODD and its cables can be inserted with an angled connector.

The issue that seems to remain is that the ODD slot may not appeal to Necere's design vision and also you would have to provide an alternative front cover without the slot. What if there is no drive installed and someone tries to insert a disc into it? LOL

I dont see why optional different panels would be no go when M1 had those too. I have no ODD panel on mine..
 
Being different just for the sake of being different is not what this case is about. A 120mm radiator also makes no sense with hardware like Scythe Big Shuriken 2 already being within four to six degrees of a Corsair Hydro H55.
Watercooling is not strictly better for every scenario, this is an example where it makes no sense.
And it wouldn't make it quieter either, adding a pump doesn't help noise.

So let's sum it up:
+ is different
+ some people think it's cool
- more noise
- less cooling efficiency
- more points-of-failure
- requires short GPU
- moderate internal redesign of the case
- specific support which CLC's fit (don't even try putting a seperate pump somewhere)
- costs more
- more installation difficulty

You're funny. More noise? Less cooling?

Look, you seem to be policing all threads small form factor, fending off any suggestions. Unless someone appointed you to do that, why are you taking this "mission" on? By the way, is there a Ph.D. program in small form factor systems that I'm not aware of?

Take it easy, is all I'm saying. Let people talk their minds.

Sigh...
 
By the way, is there a Ph.D. program in small form factor systems that I'm not aware of?
Mechanical engineering for structure and things like thermodynamics and fluid mechanics for cooling. There's also the whole industrial design usability and aesthetics side as well. So in a word... Yes, yes there is.

The vast majority of enthusiast water cooling rigs are pretty laughable from an engineering perspective.
 
You guys need to get water cooling out of this thread. Look at the width of the case and its compartmentalization. WCing isn't going to happen unless wholesale changes happen. And if that's the situation, the case will become so far removed from its original intentions that a new thread be created. WCing a console style case is not this; its not feasible in the current form. If you're hell bent on WCing a SFF, go buy a m1. This just isn't the platform for it.
 
You're funny. More noise? Less cooling?
Have you read the review in the link I gave ? I even linked the page that goes straight to the results.
Do you know any real benefits to a 120mm CLC over a good aircooler ? Even 240mm CLC's have trouble making sense in the Ncase M1 just for the CPU.

why are you taking this "mission" on?
Because not all ideas are good ones. Many people need advice with these cases and they will take someone's suggestion that room for watercooling is needed as truth, while it is just wasted. And before we know it, dozens of people are suddenly crying about no watercooling support (which is written in the startpost).
I don't go by preference, coolness factor or hear-say, I go by results. The result is that a CLC will not perform better or atleast not enough that it matters to go through the trouble.
 
Oh my goodness, I love it.

As much as it pains me to say... I want this, but my M1 is already perfect... but I might pick it one up for future builds!

You and W360 are doing a phenomenal job and I'll be following this thread closely to see when I can purchase one!
 
Question about the stand's design. How "final" is the current round/curved design? Is there room for a trapezoidal design that would recall the M1's beveled front panel?
 
ODD's are obselete because nowadays you have USB sticks with more storage than any optical medium, they are easier to use and they are supported to boot from. Africa has nothing to do with it. It's just a habit to have certain things on plastic discs.

And if you really really really need an ODD for your computer in 2014-2015 and there is no possible way a USB stick is a solution, just get an external one.

With respect, Phuncz, you think they are obsolete but many don't share that opinion. There are still a lot of people that want one, need one, and use them. We had this same debate with the M1 and in that debate Necere discovered many people liked and wanted ODD so it got added. IIRC there was a vote and that's how it got added to the M1 design.
 
Not very original but S1 could be logical. Not that it really matters. Its not like you guys depend on a catchy name for marketing. "S" as for "Steam Machine". Or the "S" could be for "Small" and all of a sudden the M1 is "Medium":) Poor M1. keeping with the "1" kind of puts pressure on you guys to keep doing this forever though, as people will be expecting a "2" and a "3" at some point.
Yeah, S1 was the most recent name we were considering. It's obvious and makes some sense, but OTOH I kind of wanted to avoid becoming even more similar to Caselabs' naming convention (who already have an S3, S5, M5, M8, etc).


I would buy it, if you can somehow make it with options "no ventilation top" (could it be possible to build it so, that one could have gpu intake as top, so when not using gpu other than integrated, one could have topside with no ventilation holes) and "slotload odd frontpanel" (you know, again when not using gpu) extras. Naturally with extra cost.

ps. oh and black feet for black case.
A replacement top is a possibility, though I'm not if there'd be much demand for it.


I'd also suggest making the top/bottom panel CPU/GPU cutouts identical, if possible. Having identical size/shape here works better aesthetically I think, plus it's a single die design come manufacturing time. If you make the side panels identical as well, the stand can be on either end.
Thing is the areas that need to be open for ventilation on either side are considerably different: GPU side vents are 95mm tall, while CPU side are 130mm. CPU cooler position can be +/- ~60mm in the vertical axis, so it needs that range. The ventilated area on the GPU could be expanded to match, but there's no real benefit and the vents will actually overlap the motherboard tray/divider a bit. I also want to keep a margin around the vent opening on the inside so Demcifilters can be used. The stand attaches to the short top/bottom panels, so the side panel design has no impact there.

You may not be aware of it, but the M1 is manufactured almost entirely without custom tooling. This is how Lian Li makes most of their cases, from what I understand. Most things are cut on an NCT, with tooling for a few dozen punches that are shared across all their cases. This is what makes small volume production feasible for us. Now, if you can afford to drop $100k+ upfront on custom tooling, and can be reasonably sure you'll be able to move enough units over a few years to amortize the cost, the cost per unit can be a lot lower. But as we're just a couple guys designing and selling cases, and not a company with a distribution network, marketing department, customer service, and actual engineers, it's a bit outside the scope of what we're doing.


Speaking of power, how about PicoPSU support? Have a small panel that replaces the IEC cord receptacle. This panel will have pre-stamped knockouts for both a mini-DIN panel mount and a barrel socket (either two separate cutouts or one of those circle-in-a-circle combo knockouts). Reach out to the Mini-box guys and see what they got for ya.

Cable management stampings to train that IEC cord into the position you got it drawn up in?

I'd also look into doing a larger cutout for the GPU power cables. Maybe one of those oval rubber inserts that blocks airflow, but has cable pass-through cutouts? Have the long side of the oval cover the entire height of the GPU. This should both give better airflow isolation and better support GPUs with PCIe power on the front of the card vs. top.
The rubber grommets for the GPU power cables and holes for cable ties are both on the agenda. The mini-DIN/barrel socket, maybe... I think when I looked into it when someone asked for it for the M1 I had trouble finding drawings and it may not have fit in the AC inlet opening (and there was literally nowhere else on the M1 back panel). I'll take another look at it, though.


Will the top and bottom panels attach to the case with the same type of connectors that the M1 panels use? I prefer the tool-less design, like the ones in the M1, as they would be really easy to strip paint with conventional screws.
The short side panels (top/bottom when vertical) use screws. They're structurally important, so they need to be solidly attached. They shouldn't need to be removed very often anyway - possibly just during GPU installation. It's (currently) seven small screws to deal with, but on the plus side it makes installing the GPU pretty easy.


I think it's very possible to fit an ODD offset to the bottom front of the case if you are using a short form factor card (~7 in.) 13 inches minus 7 inches leaves 6 inches of space for the ODD and its cables can be inserted with an angled connector.
As I explained, for a ~170mm GPU, there isn't enough room for the mini-SATA connector for the drive. There's about 10mm, and it needs ~25mm. Even with the drive moved all the way over, the GPU is very close to the side panel and there's not enough room for it. Only thing I can think of that could conceivably work is a single slot card.


Question about the stand's design. How "final" is the current round/curved design? Is there room for a trapezoidal design that would recall the M1's beveled front panel?
I actually had a design for the stand just as you describe, but w360 vetoed it. I'm okay with the curved design - the trapezoid was interesting, but curved is a cleaner look.
 
Thing is the areas that need to be open for ventilation on either side are considerably different: GPU side vents are 95mm tall, while CPU side are 130mm. CPU cooler position can be +/- ~60mm in the vertical axis, so it needs that range. The ventilated area on the GPU could be expanded to match, but there's no real benefit and the vents will actually overlap the motherboard tray/divider a bit. I also want to keep a margin around the vent opening on the inside so Demcifilters can be used. The stand attaches to the short top/bottom panels, so the side panel design has no impact there.
I should have clarified: The larger 130mm CPU vents on both top/bottom. Yes there will be center divider overlap, but the aesthetics will be better I think. Worth drawing up at least.

The mini-DIN/barrel socket, maybe... I think when I looked into it when someone asked for it for the M1 I had trouble finding drawings and it may not have fit in the AC inlet opening (and there was literally nowhere else on the M1 back panel). I'll take another look at it, though.
Receptacle drawings:
http://media2.rsdelivers.cataloguesolutions.com/LargeProductImages/L183176-01.jpg
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/tech-diagrams/090-442-parts-express-tech-drawing-40236.gif

Mini-DIN/barrel combo cutout (they got CAD files posted too):
http://resources.mini-box.com/online/ENC-M350/moreimages/M350D-hole-4PIN-Mini-DIN-power-cable.html
http://www.mini-box.com/M350-universal-mini-itx-enclosure

Mini-DIN-in-IEC:
https://www.hd-plex.com/product/Power.Supply.150W/en/fanlesspcinstallation.html

Dell/Flextronics 7.4x5.0mm w/ pin in IEC drawings:
http://www.hd-plex.com/product/160W.DC-ATX.PSU/en/fanlesspcinstallation.html

You should be able to put a 50x20mm cover plate over the 28x20mm IEC receptacle cutout and put a mini-DIN/barrel combo cutout in the middle. To support both Flextronics and mini-DIN you'll need 1mm of horizontal slot adjustment in the mounting screws, looks like. Wouldn't surprise me if this part is burred deep in a DigiKey or Mouser catalog somewhere...

You really only need to support two PSUs:
HDPLEX 160W DC-ATX (Flextronics 7.4x5.0mm & barrel)
Mini-Box picoPSU-160-XT (mini-DIN & barrel)

Going PicoPSU would also allow for a 3.5" HDD in place of the SFX PSU I think, but you'd have to check dimensions.

Speaking of panel mounts, you think it's possible to get some (1/4"?) RP-SMA knockouts in there? Three tiny holes around the motherboard RF shield or above the GPU would do it.
 
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With respect, Phuncz, you think they are obsolete but many don't share that opinion. There are still a lot of people that want one, need one, and use them. We had this same debate with the M1 and in that debate Necere discovered many people liked and wanted ODD so it got added. IIRC there was a vote and that's how it got added to the M1 design.
Yes I agree, I speak in general terms and ofcourse it's just my opinion in the end. But still, SFF is all about efficiency. We were the first to drop 3,5" disks, ATX PSU's and optical drives to shrink down our computers. While the Ncase M1 supports those things, this new case shows that it can shed another 25% by dropping support for those things.

In the end I feel that most people can still live without an ODD or atleast an internal one. I turned on mine (yes, external :)) recently to rip a promo CD I got to MP3's so I could listen to it in the car (no CD support, just iPod). And that was the first time in 3 years. I have it tucked away out of sight and I can live with that. It works exactly the same and performs exactly the same.

I can see the issue with people needing to buy games on discs because of crappy internet that are too slow to use online game stores like Steam, but that should be a vast minority by now.

And that's my point: redesigning the case that from the first post said: this case will support NO watercooling, NO ODD, NO 3,5" HDD.
But still people are complaining they want this case transformed to support all these things. If we could add an ODD without any substantial redesigning, I'd say, yeah do it. The Ncase M1 also has grommets for external water reservoirs which maybe 5% use. But it didn't require redesigning the case, just add some holes. Necere already said multiple times an ODD will not fit. But still people keep pushing to move this and cut that just so they have a built-in ODD.
 
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