The Morals of Grabbing Free Content From the Web

H

HardOCP News

[H] News
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Messages
0
Funny that this has been around for over sixty years but it applies to modern day piracy perfectly.

The duo theorized that people are well aware of their moral obligations to abide by the law so therefore, when those people commit crimes, they have to employ techniques in order to overcome their inbuilt desire to do the “right thing”. They do this, Matza and Sykes said, through denial and by justifying their behavior.
Click to expand...
 
Considering how easily Microsoft was about to vilify their customers with Xbox One, it's easy to say that one would mod an Xbox One to get around this system. A lot of people would have easily became modern day robin hoods.

#1 Majority of people pirate to avoid paying.
#2 Some people pirate cause the product isn't available in their country, or at least for a while.
#3 And some people just can't afford it.
 
Well I agree that people will generally do the "right thing" in the context of their own situation. However there comes a breaking point where there are so many laws placed on the general population that they start to ignore them.

Remember that this whole thing called society ONLY exists because of the unspoken promise we all make to allow it to work. At any point any of us can decide to just not follow the rules of society. It literally is just that close to destruction. That's why we (or those who govern it) have to be careful in how far its taken.
 
I’ve been getting my movies, music and TV from various online sources including Amazon Prime, Pandora and Youtube now by capturing the stream from memory and saving it. I have no moral dilemma with it because my method was deemed legal back in the 80’s with television and the VCR. This is the same method but different medium
 
Ashbringer said:
#1 Majority of people pirate to avoid paying.
#2 Some people pirate cause the product isn't available in their country, or at least for a while.
#3 And some people just can't afford it.
Click to expand...

1 and 3 is the same...
 
I wonder if the rationale changes as the user ages ... prior to the ready availability of materials on the internet I did engage in analog equivalents (I copied VHS tapes for my own use and I purchased software in Malaysia) ...

however, as I got older and my income improved I stopped engaging in those behaviors ... if I couldn't afford it, I didn't get it until I could afford it ... even with oppressive DRM I would try and endure or skip the game rather than hunting for cracks ... with music, the availability of Pandora, Spotify, YouTube, and others negated the need to pirate music tracks ...

the only one that took a little bit of effort to avoid was liberating pictures from the internet (since I make a lot of Powerpoint presentations and graphics are needed for them) ... but even there I was able to find public domain images I could use or purchase images in some cases rather than just liberating them from the net

I think many people are very self centered and can't see beyond their own needs and wants (judging from how many people justify taking music because "artists" shouldn't be about profit ;) ) ... I think once you expand your view to include the wants and needs of the content creators then piracy or unauthorized file sharing becomes much less attractive :cool:
 
Ashbringer said:
Considering how easily Microsoft was about to vilify their customers with Xbox One, it's easy to say that one would mod an Xbox One to get around this system. A lot of people would have easily became modern day robin hoods.

#1 Majority of people pirate to avoid paying.
#2 Some people pirate cause the product isn't available in their country, or at least for a while.
#3 And some people just can't afford it.
Click to expand...

Anyone claiming they have to modify their 600 dollar console because they can't afford games is an imbecile.
 
westrock2000 said:
Well I agree that people will generally do the "right thing" in the context of their own situation. However there comes a breaking point where there are so many laws placed on the general population that they start to ignore them.
Click to expand...
A lot of the laws lately are created for corporate interests. Lobbied by corporations with far more money then the mid to low class citizens will ever have.

arr4ws said:
1 and 3 is the same...
Click to expand...
1 assumes you could afford it, while 3 assumes you're living off ramen noodles.
 
Aluisious said:
Anyone claiming they have to modify their 600 dollar console because they can't afford games is an imbecile.
Click to expand...

He may have been talking about other forms of downloading. Although at $60 a pop for games, each game you download makes the console price cheaper per game you own, so it can still be a matter of not affording. You get one game because that's all you can afford, congrats you went back to the days of the NeoGeo and bought a $660 game you can play, you buy 10 games .. well then you got 10 games that cost you $120 a piece to play, you download 10 games... well then you got 10 games that cost you $60 a piece to play.
 
Sorry... but not having enough money and do not want to pay for it is the same

If youre poor and you want to own something , get a better job and get more money to pay it.
 
Millionaires and Billionaires get caught stealing and go Prison (health clubs from what I read).

They did not have to steal, they just wanted something for nothing.
 
Qinsp said:
Millionaires and Billionaires get caught stealing and go Prison (health clubs from what I read).

They did not have to steal, they just wanted something for nothing.
Click to expand...

Shhh, don't bring that kind of logic into this thread. When corporations steal it's not called stealing. It's cost of business or fees or innovation. Kinda like when the NSA snoops, it's not called spying on our friendly neighbors, it's called... "looking out for their best interests without them actually asking us to do that..." There is ALWAYS going to be a party that is going to be treated unjustly in situations like piracy. I pay for Amazon Prime, Netflix, have a $200/month cable bill, and STILL that's not enough apparently :)
 
TheWeazmeister said:
Shhh, don't bring that kind of logic into this thread. When corporations steal it's not called stealing. It's cost of business or fees or innovation. Kinda like when the NSA snoops, it's not called spying on our friendly neighbors, it's called... "looking out for their best interests without them actually asking us to do that..." There is ALWAYS going to be a party that is going to be treated unjustly in situations like piracy. I pay for Amazon Prime, Netflix, have a $200/month cable bill, and STILL that's not enough apparently :)
Click to expand...

Two wrongs don't make a right and a much more powerful statement is made by boycotting things you disagree with rather than finding illegal ways to get them without paying ;)
 
arr4ws said:
Sorry... but not having enough money and do not want to pay for it is the same

If youre poor and you want to own something , get a better job and get more money to pay it.
Click to expand...

No it isn't..

plenty of people with money who don't want to pay for things..how some people are, how the rich get richer, by finding ways around spending their own money to get things they want.
 
kbrickley said:
Two wrongs don't make a right and a much more powerful statement is made by boycotting things you disagree with rather than finding illegal ways to get them without paying ;)
Click to expand...

Getting the stuff without paying has the same end result as boycotting. You also get to enjoy both the content as well as a bit of schadenfreude.
 
MrGuvernment said:
No it isn't..

plenty of people with money who don't want to pay for things..how some people are, how the rich get richer, by finding ways around spending their own money to get things they want.
Click to expand...

I have a rather well off uncle who spends quite a bit of his time coming up with scams and perfectly legal ways of getting free shit from companies. He just does it to be a jerk, not because he is "saving" money.
 
GotNoRice said:
Many places you can't even apply for EBT without a computer, so yeah - in 2013, computer comes before food.
Click to expand...

Library, e-cafe's, neighbors/friends, rentals, cell phone w/ data plan. There are plenty of ways to file or apply for services via the web without owning a computer. Poor people with responsibility are not going to put PC + internet bill ahead of food with so much access to computers and internet through various means readily available. My aunt and uncle don't have a pc or internet just to save the money for vacations and use mine or other family members connections. Also the percentage of people over 80 with a computer and internet has to be less than 10%. There is an alternative of calling someone to almost everything still today.
 
I think there is a lot of grey in between the black and white.

In my case the only time I obtain things for "free" on the internet is to save myself from spending my hard earned money on things I can't try/return if I don't like it. Look at games for example. If there aren't demos then how am I going to know if it's a good game or not? How do I know I'm not wasting my money? Sure you have game play demos and reviews, but those can be very subjective. I look at a game like Bioshock Infinite. Based on it being a Bioshock game, all the unending praise for it everywhere, top of the list reviews...yet I bought the game and guess what? I didn't really enjoy at all. There is a lot of things that can't be experienced by reviews or game play videos. Sure the shooting looked fun but I quickly got bored after 6 hours of the same thing over and over again...something I wouldn't find out simply by watching videos. Not to mention the fact that if I did watch a continuous 6 hour game play video I might as well just download the game for free anyways as I'd be "experiencing" the game without paying for it. So there went $60 down the drain despite the fact that I pretty much did everything prior to playing it to ensure I would enjoy it. Can I return it for a refund? Nope. Can I return most everything else for a refund? Yes...

This also goes for music and movies as well. Especially music. Who here hasn't bought an album from some band whose song you heard on the radio and enjoyed? Except once you buy the album you realize that the one good song you heard is the only good song on the whole album? How was I supposed to listen to all the songs before purchasing it? Listen to them on YouTube? If that's the case then what's different from downloading the album to try it vs. listening to it online? I mean...really?

So to me it isn't so much a moral thing it's a factor of not being able to try before you buy, the fact that MOST digital and physical media can't be returned once opened, and the fact that stuff is simply too expensive for most people. Sure you can say "IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD IT THEN YOU GO WITHOUT!" but that is just a sad excuse on so many different levels. Because someone may not be fortunate enough to have an awesome paying job or has a decent paying job but a family to provide for or WHATEVER the case may be that person just has to go without?

Does that excuse work for those in Africa and everyone around the world that's starving everyday? BECAUSE YOU CAN'T AFFORD FOOD MEANS YOU SHOULD STARVE TO DEATH! I mean, come on, really! Now sure that's a gross exaggeration, but the fact is that you only have one life to live. I, as a human being, should be able to enjoy all that life has to offer. I for one don't let my life be run my money. I hate money, I hate the fact that you have to slave away in one form or another just to be able to afford a gallon of milk. Life shouldn't be run by money...it should be run by enjoyment and experiencing it the best you can...however, this is a different subject altogether but still...I don't know...No one want's to win the lottery just because they get money, they want to win the lottery so they can enjoy every moment of life and not have to slave away 75% of their time on earth.

Either way, this argument has been done to death. Everyone does something they shouldn't "legally" do. Who here that argues piracy is evil has never broke the speed limit? We all break the law at some point. Just because you don't download music doesn't make you a better person than then one who does. It simply means you don't download music. Good for you!
 
JoeUser said:
I think there is a lot of grey in between the black and white.

In my case the only time I obtain things for "free" on the internet is to save myself from spending my hard earned money on things I can't try/return if I don't like it. Look at games for example. If there aren't demos then how am I going to know if it's a good game or not? How do I know I'm not wasting my money? Sure you have game play demos and reviews, but those can be very subjective. I look at a game like Bioshock Infinite. Based on it being a Bioshock game, all the unending praise for it everywhere, top of the list reviews...yet I bought the game and guess what? I didn't really enjoy at all. There is a lot of things that can't be experienced by reviews or game play videos. Sure the shooting looked fun but I quickly got bored after 6 hours of the same thing over and over again...something I wouldn't find out simply by watching videos. Not to mention the fact that if I did watch a continuous 6 hour game play video I might as well just download the game for free anyways as I'd be "experiencing" the game without paying for it. So there went $60 down the drain despite the fact that I pretty much did everything prior to playing it to ensure I would enjoy it. Can I return it for a refund? Nope. Can I return most everything else for a refund? Yes...

This also goes for music and movies as well. Especially music. Who here hasn't bought an album from some band whose song you heard on the radio and enjoyed? Except once you buy the album you realize that the one good song you heard is the only good song on the whole album? How was I supposed to listen to all the songs before purchasing it? Listen to them on YouTube? If that's the case then what's different from downloading the album to try it vs. listening to it online? I mean...really?

So to me it isn't so much a moral thing it's a factor of not being able to try before you buy, the fact that MOST digital and physical media can't be returned once opened, and the fact that stuff is simply too expensive for most people. Sure you can say "IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD IT THEN YOU GO WITHOUT!" but that is just a sad excuse on so many different levels. Because someone may not be fortunate enough to have an awesome paying job or has a decent paying job but a family to provide for or WHATEVER the case may be that person just has to go without?

Does that excuse work for those in Africa and everyone around the world that's starving everyday? BECAUSE YOU CAN'T AFFORD FOOD MEANS YOU SHOULD STARVE TO DEATH! I mean, come on, really! Now sure that's a gross exaggeration, but the fact is that you only have one life to live. I, as a human being, should be able to enjoy all that life has to offer. I for one don't let my life be run my money. I hate money, I hate the fact that you have to slave away in one form or another just to be able to afford a gallon of milk. Life shouldn't be run by money...it should be run by enjoyment and experiencing it the best you can...however, this is a different subject altogether but still...I don't know...No one want's to win the lottery just because they get money, they want to win the lottery so they can enjoy every moment of life and not have to slave away 75% of their time on earth.

Either way, this argument has been done to death. Everyone does something they shouldn't "legally" do. Who here that argues piracy is evil has never broke the speed limit? We all break the law at some point. Just because you don't download music doesn't make you a better person than then one who does. It simply means you don't download music. Good for you!
Click to expand...

It is only grey because you choose to make it so, it isn't that grey to everyone ;)

Game demos are probably a valid argument as even normal software has some return capability not available for games (not for piracy but for having some alternative) ... game rentals should be the likely solution although most people wanting game demos are so anti DRM they would never accept that option ... however, that is better than playing it for free and then claiming you wouldn't have bought it anyway

Music is a poor argument as most of the online purchase options have track demos (often up to 1/3 of the song) ... with the ability to preview all the songs on the album there is no excuse beyond self entitlement to download the album rather than going to Amazon or iTunes and listening to the preview tracks there ;)

There are too many video streaming options and disc/blu ray services available (HBO, Netflix, Amazon, iTunes, Vudu, etc ... some even have rentals) to claim that piracy is justified for video either ... again the excuse becomes that the person is too lazy to preview or too cheap to rent something they are unsure of

If a person has to choose between eating and entertainment then they should choose eating ... pirating isn't an excuse there either since no one has a "right" to be entertained or to use another's intellectual property without the owner's permission ... and if the corporations are trying to push entertainment in non-OECD countries at the expense of their necessities then shame on the corporations but that doesn't excuse it either

It would be nice (but boring) if everyone could have everything they wanted when they wanted without having to exert any effort ... luckily we do not live in that world and people have the motivation to save up for things they want, or wait for the big sale to buy the game they have their eye on ... using the Veruca Salt (the Willy Wonka character, not the band) argument for piracy just doesn't fly :D
 
Krenum said:
If you're living off Ramen Noodles and have a Computer, you might have a priority problem.
Click to expand...

I don't know. I own several computers and have lived off ramen a time or two. Sometimes, shit hits the fan.

My piracy days are long over, but it was never a "I cannot afford it" (well, I doubt I could afford the amounts I was downloading at the time). It was more of "free, easy access and fast". Now, it's still not about if I can afford it or not. It is more of a 'doing the right thing'. If I want something, I don't go and download it. I check Amazon. If it's cheap, I buy it. If not, I don't. And, it's more of a sub conscience thing, too.
 
That_Sound_Guy said:
Library, e-cafe's, neighbors/friends, rentals, cell phone w/ data plan. There are plenty of ways to file or apply for services via the web without owning a computer.
Click to expand...
What you described is probably more expensive then just owning a computer. Owning a computer is just expected today, like TV and radio. Do you really expect people to go around just being food to feces converters?

kbrickley said:
Two wrongs don't make a right and a much more powerful statement is made by boycotting things you disagree with rather than finding illegal ways to get them without paying ;)
Click to expand...
If you pirate something, it at least tells companies that you're interested in the product, just not at that price. The correct reaction is to lower prices. Instead they feel like enforcing payment at those prices is the better coarse of action.

One example is Microsoft Office. It's expensive, and rather then paying for this, a lot of college students would rather pirate it. So Microsoft responds to making Office 365, which you pay a monthly fee. At $10 it's not bad, but after 1 year you would have payed $120. For something that won't even work at your schools computers cause they use XP.

So what do I do? I use Libre Office, cause it's free. Why do people still pirate MS Office then? Cause it's the industry standard and they can. What Microsoft is doing is going to try and make it impossible. When that happens, people will just avoid the product all together.

It's not a good business model to exclude people cause you want to enforce a price. It never works. Why did Microsoft nearly include DRM onto games you bought? Cause they wanted to enforce the $60 price. You'll find that nearly everything corporations do today is not try to justify the price of their product, but enforce it.
 
Ashbringer said:
It's not a good business model to exclude people cause you want to enforce a price. It never works. Why did Microsoft nearly include DRM onto games you bought? Cause they wanted to enforce the $60 price. You'll find that nearly everything corporations do today is not try to justify the price of their product, but enforce it.
Click to expand...

QFT.
 
Ashbringer said:
If you pirate something, it at least tells companies that you're interested in the product, just not at that price. The correct reaction is to lower prices. Instead they feel like enforcing payment at those prices is the better coarse of action.

One example is Microsoft Office. It's expensive, and rather then paying for this, a lot of college students would rather pirate it. So Microsoft responds to making Office 365, which you pay a monthly fee. At $10 it's not bad, but after 1 year you would have payed $120. For something that won't even work at your schools computers cause they use XP.

So what do I do? I use Libre Office, cause it's free. Why do people still pirate MS Office then? Cause it's the industry standard and they can. What Microsoft is doing is going to try and make it impossible. When that happens, people will just avoid the product all together.

It's not a good business model to exclude people cause you want to enforce a price. It never works. Why did Microsoft nearly include DRM onto games you bought? Cause they wanted to enforce the $60 price. You'll find that nearly everything corporations do today is not try to justify the price of their product, but enforce it.
Click to expand...

The Office (or business software in general) is an interesting example since I would agree that software priced for the business market is excessively expensive ... I once purchased a grey market copy of Visio before I found a much more reasonably priced alternative (SmartDraw) which I currently use ... MS did have the Ultimate Steal for college students for a long time (the complete Office Ultimate edition for $60) ... they should do more of that and it would be nice if other companies (AutoCAD, Adobe) had student discount programs also

Games on the other hand it becomes the entitlement factor again ... no one NEEDS a game ... and the $60 for many games is pretty much unchanged for the last 15 years or so (making it a lower price now than it was then due to inflationary effects) ... if I don't like the launch price of a game I wait for a sale ... I have waited for more than a year on multiple occasions to catch Steam or Black Friday offerings ... but I have never pirated a game to protest its price (and I suspect most people who pirate games are not protesting the prices either) :cool:
 
kbrickley said:
There are too many video streaming options and disc/blu ray services available (HBO, Netflix, Amazon, iTunes, Vudu, etc ... some even have rentals) to claim that piracy is justified for video either ... again the excuse becomes that the person is too lazy to preview or too cheap to rent something they are unsure of
Click to expand...

This is only the case in places like the United States.

Here in the UK, we have limited selection and even with those select content providers, the actual content on them is different than those of our United States counterpart.

I recently began my Spotify Premium subscription and since then have not downloaded a single track, simply because I don't have the need and I am now getting, finally, the content I want on a medium that suits me, the consumer.

The movie/tv industry don't seem to grasp this concept, if I were able to pay £X/month and have all the content available to stream or save to my selected devices, I'd have no problem doing so. Instead, I can pay a premium for a Blu-Ray disc, which comes with a DRM protected digital copy that restricts my use.

For example, on Spotify, I have some select albums saved as playlists which are then (using the features available) synced offline to my select devices to play when I don't have WiFi signal or am on the road. Show me a similar solution for movies or TV?

I know a few people personally who have fully automated usenet setups who would both love and have no problem paying for, a digital service that gives them the content already available. I firmly believe if the movie and TV industry offered a service of say, £X/mo (that wasn't outrageous) they would make far more money through converting would-be pirates (not everyone, I know) than they do by gouging regular consumers now.

That's my two pence!
 
Ashbringer said:
So what do I do? I use Libre Office, cause it's free. Why do people still pirate MS Office then? Cause it's the industry standard and they can. What Microsoft is doing is going to try and make it impossible. When that happens, people will just avoid the product all together.
Click to expand...

And it will be blamed on piracy....

I know a lot of people asking for alternatives to MS Office. I let them know of Open Office and Libre Office. There are a lot of people that just want a simple and sweet word processor and spreadsheet program.

Office is big in the business world, though. There are a lot of people that buy it for home because they have it in the office (and don't know of alternatives).

I'm staying away from Office 365. I use it at work, but I don't like the subscription model. I like that I can still use my Office 95 (or XP, 2007...) install if need be (I haven't needed it, but it's there if I do need it).
 
The Donut said:
This is only the case in places like the United States.

Here in the UK, we have limited selection and even with those select content providers, the actual content on them is different than those of our United States counterpart.

I recently began my Spotify Premium subscription and since then have not downloaded a single track, simply because I don't have the need and I am now getting, finally, the content I want on a medium that suits me, the consumer.

The movie/tv industry don't seem to grasp this concept, if I were able to pay £X/month and have all the content available to stream or save to my selected devices, I'd have no problem doing so. Instead, I can pay a premium for a Blu-Ray disc, which comes with a DRM protected digital copy that restricts my use.

For example, on Spotify, I have some select albums saved as playlists which are then (using the features available) synced offline to my select devices to play when I don't have WiFi signal or am on the road. Show me a similar solution for movies or TV?

I know a few people personally who have fully automated usenet setups who would both love and have no problem paying for, a digital service that gives them the content already available. I firmly believe if the movie and TV industry offered a service of say, £X/mo (that wasn't outrageous) they would make far more money through converting would-be pirates (not everyone, I know) than they do by gouging regular consumers now.

That's my two pence!
Click to expand...

I would agree that the movie studios definitely need to figure out a way to get more stuff showing overseas ... although in their defense they have some weird distribution agreements overseas which often complicates the release of movies in both theaters and on disc ... I think their rentals through iTunes and Amazon are much more ubiquitous but their free streaming offerings are primarily in the States (and fairly limited here too) ...

the disc options I can understand would be very problematic as the Post works very differently overseas ... although I am surprised they haven't had someone start something like Redbox in all of the OECD countries at a minimum
 
Even though its free for me now, $30 bucks on top of my Cable bill per premium channel is asking for way to much. Entertainers are over hyped and over paid.

As far as M$ products, I will have my main rig and laptop OS authentic. I have a legit copy of office 2010' but Every thing after that is a different story.

Game Dev's don't deserve money for garbage recreations, but they hype em up and sell millions for the same game with a different number behind it and with a few added guns, sounds, maps. An update for $15-$20 would suffice as well as keep existing players.I'm pretty sure y'all know what game I'm talking about.

I made the mistake and bought into "Warzie", named differently now, and can't pay someone to take it off my hands.

I don't download music, I only listen to radio via pandora or Sirius in the car. The commercials don't bother me on pandora, and my satellite radio is only $40 bucks a year. I have thought about buying one CD recently, but was just a thought.
 
The "denial of injury" clause is not represented accurately with filesharers in this context. Denial of injury refers to the concept of stealing a loaf of bread for a billionaire. You know it's wrong, but who cares? But thats not what file-sharers do. I will never pay money to watch the Spice Girls movie. I have absolutely no interest in watching this. But if for some reason someone sends me a link to stream it, and in a drunken state I actually click that link and watch it, am I suddenly a thief? How did Paramount lose money if I was never giving them my money in the first place? If God himself gave the MPAA his magic wand so that they could prevent all forms of piracy through divine intervention, would I have paid Vudu the $2.99 to watch this movies? The answer is NO. That $2.99 was never going to materialize in their pockets, thus no theft has ever occurred. Do not mistake this with accidentally tripping and falling face first into a fresh baked pie at the bakery and having no choice but to eat it for risk of suffocation. In that instance, they have lost a pie. The ingredients that went into making that pie can never be recovered, and they will have to spend more money and make another pie to replace the one they have lost. But since energy cannot be consumed, only transferred, pirating a movie does not require the movie studio to make another movie to replace the one I watched.
 
Kueller said:
FIFY
Getting a person isn't as easy as you make it seem...
Click to expand...

Never said it was easy, an alternative.


Ashbringer said:
What you described is probably more expensive then just owning a computer. Owning a computer is just expected today, like TV and radio. Do you really expect people to go around just being food to feces converters?
Click to expand...

For people who have minimal need for the internet, the minimum $20 a month plus $300 for a old computer is a large expense. Our local libraries have 2 computers with open internet for anyone to use for free. Owning a computer is expected for the young generation who still has to prove themselves to the world and adapt. The older, baby bomber, near retirement generations do not need this expectation/expense to survive.

Not quite sure what your statement about food to feces converters has to do with the topic at hand since everyone fits that category. I am sure however that your retired professional now hobbyist, artist, traveler, freelancer and other enjoyment subject of the retired life individual without computers would disagree with your blanket statement of a useless life.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top