The Microsoft Surface Book and Surface Pro 4

Thank you for the break down. It is really pushes me into the SP4 territory.
 
I'm not going to lie, the SP4 I have has impressed me so far. Yes they are a few bugs here and there but they are getting solved bit by bit. Just make sure your set yours to hibernate rather than sleep.

But really it has replaced my laptop.
 
Some Random Guy said:
Yes they are a few bugs here and there but they are getting solved bit by bit. Just make sure your set yours to hibernate rather than sleep.
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I've had the Surface Book i7/16 GB/512 GB since launch day and bit by bit the kinks have been getting worked out in my experience. The last two major issues I'm having are power related. The excessive battery standby issue as you point out and a pretty weird one that would only effect the Surface Book. I have the new Surface dock as well and for whatever reason if I detach the screen while the keyboard is docked and then reattach it, it never switches back over to AC power and runs only on battery until the dock is unplugged and plugged back in. Happens each and every time. Both issues have been acknowledged by Microsoft so hopefully some updates next month will get these last two issues worked out.

Ryan usually does a good job with reviews and I pretty much agree with this one as well. I do disagree a bit on the pricing. Sure it would be nice if these things were cheaper but for what they are I don't think the pricing is unreasonable. There's just not much out there built like these devices that packs the design, build quality and features. Plus Microsoft really isn't trying hit mainstream pricing which would clearly piss off OEMs who might even like something like the Surface line to attract buyers to 2 in 1 devices but are looking for cheaper alternatives.
 
The surface name and build has come a long way, I try to sway my users to surface pro's over ipads and now ipad pros. Those things are seriously abysmal i'm sorry.
 
w00t69 said:
The surface name and build has come a long way, I try to sway my users to surface pro's over ipads and now ipad pros. Those things are seriously abysmal i'm sorry.
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I think iPads are still the best media consumption/entertainment tablets out there because of their fantastic tablet ecosystem. I know some will think this statement diminishes iPads as productivity devices and while they certainly are capable in that area they simply don't have the chops of Core x86 Windows tablets like the Surface line. If iPads did then x86 Windows tablets would have died of like ARM Windows RT devices and the exact opposite is happening now. And that's not because of the great tablet app selection on x86 Windows.

It will be interesting to see how well the iPad Pro does. I think the Apple Pencil is what makes the iPad Pro interesting. The Pencil gets high praise for its low latency of the tilt function. But if the productivity tablet/2 in 1 market continues to grow I don't think iOS is up to the task long term, not without out a lot of features from the desktop. At least not at current prices.
 
Love the Surface line of devices. I'd take one over an iPad/Pro any day. Those are so limiting IMHO. Hoping they release Surface Phones asap.
 
w00t69 said:
The surface name and build has come a long way, I try to sway my users to surface pro's over ipads and now ipad pros. Those things are seriously abysmal i'm sorry.
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I'm just glad most the office apps require x86 systems, so I don't have to worry about iPads :)
 
I think I'd wait and see for the 2nd version of the Surface Book, but I really like it (and the Surface Pro 4.)

If only Microsoft can come closer to Wacom digitizer level in input lag. I like the digitizer more than the Apple Pencil in most ways except in response.
 
I really want one. The only thing holding me back is the price.

The Surface Pro is the perfect combination of portability and power. Something you can easily travel with and get work done on.


Reimu said:
If only Microsoft can come closer to Wacom digitizer level in input lag. I like the digitizer more than the Apple Pencil in most ways except in response.
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Yeah that's one area where Wacom still reigns supreme. The Wacom tablets are not exactly bargain priced for someone that's not an artist and still would like the capability to draw/paint though.
 
Krab said:
I really want one. The only thing holding me back is the price.

The Surface Pro is the perfect combination of portability and power. Something you can easily travel with and get work done on.
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Yep. This is something MS really needs to get onto right up there with software functionality. I really like the SP3 i have, i waited for a device like it for easily 6 years (perhaps more).

But for the prices they are asking, there's no way i'm upgrading it to a 4. Especially if you also take into consideration the hostage mentality they seem to have going with their software now.

Bring the price brackets back to reality and if you're going to continue ot charge exuberant numbers at least put every damn bit of kit in it so the customers dont have to compromise.
 
HoffY said:
Yep. This is something MS really needs to get onto right up there with software functionality. I really like the SP3 i have, i waited for a device like it for easily 6 years (perhaps more).

But for the prices they are asking, there's no way i'm upgrading it to a 4. Especially if you also take into consideration the hostage mentality they seem to have going with their software now.

Bring the price brackets back to reality and if you're going to continue ot charge exuberant numbers at least put every damn bit of kit in it so the customers dont have to compromise.
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When people complain about the prices of the Surface line I wonder what other devices they are looking at out there. If there were comparable devices to the Surface line that are cheaper I have a feeling that however made it is would be selling a lot of devices and that they'd pretty well known. Who has put as much or more kit into devices like the Surface Pro and Surface Book with the same build quality and functionality?

As for the going to the Surface Pro 3 to Pro 4, Microsoft made all of the new accessories backwards compatible which helped Pro 3 users extend the usefulness of their device without buying all new hardware. If one were already happy with the Pro 3 Microsoft made it much easier to hang on to it without shelling out for a whole new device.
 
HoffY said:
lol - how predictable.
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Indeed, whenever I ask someone to provide names of specific devices that are cheaper than Surface devices with the same build quality and features there's never really any reply.

Of course there are cheaper devices that do similar things. The Surface Book is pricy but I've not seen a better laptop hybrid for less money. Solid magnesium chassis, dual batteries and GPUs, Windows Hello camera, innovative keyboard docking solution, top notch digital pen with a great keyboard and trackpad.
 
I went with the Surface pro 4 because i use it as keyboardless tablet for presentations. The Book, not so tablet friendly. Definitely usable but i didn't need laptop, i needed something even more portable.
 
Inu said:
I went with the Surface pro 4 because i use it as keyboardless tablet for presentations. The Book, not so tablet friendly. Definitely usable but i didn't need laptop, i needed something even more portable.
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The Book is definitely a laptop first. When detached from the keyboard though it is a massive and pretty light for it's size tablet. It's actually great to use like this but of course the battery life is way short. Still I do use it a lot as a tablet but having a Surface Pro 3 as well I miss the kickstand. But the display on the Book is just so much nicer and the sound much better. I'd love to see future versions of the Book that have a kickstand on the tablet section. Maybe Microsoft will just create a keyboard dock for the Surface Pro. A product line that could take some very interesting paths.
 
It's funny, I had really been intrigued by the Book when it first was announced, as I never liked the idea of the "not real keyboard" of the Surface Pro. But it feels like just the Surface Pro 4 really is the way to go.
 
zadillo said:
It's funny, I had really been intrigued by the Book when it first was announced, as I never liked the idea of the "not real keyboard" of the Surface Pro. But it feels like just the Surface Pro 4 really is the way to go.
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They are really quite different devices. The Surface Pro 4 is a tablet that can become a laptop. The Surface Book is a laptop that can become a tablet. The Surface Book is really meant to be used with its keyboard most of the time since that's where most of the battery is. Since I had a Surface Pro 3 I went with the Surface Book and it really is a hell of device.

The issue with it are the bugs and quirks though it looks like most of them have been pretty well mitigated. I seem to be even getting better sleep standby times though not quite as good as I'm thinking. I'm currently using the latest Intel HD 520 driver from Intel's site along with the latest GeForce 361.43 drivers. Very stable thus far but it seems to have introduce another quirk where the 940m seems to disappear after a day of uptime requiring a reboot. But that one I put on me, I just wanted to get some better gaming performance using NVidia's drivers though they seem be officially supported on the Book now, one can just install them with no tricks.
 
HoffY said:
Bring the price brackets back to reality and if you're going to continue ot charge exuberant numbers at least put every damn bit of kit in it so the customers dont have to compromise.
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heatlesssun said:
When people complain about the prices of the Surface line I wonder what other devices they are looking at out there. If there were comparable devices to the Surface line that are cheaper I have a feeling that however made it is would be selling a lot of devices and that they'd pretty well known. Who has put as much or more kit into devices like the Surface Pro and Surface Book with the same build quality and functionality?
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Say I want a Surface Pro 4.
I can get one for $899 with an M3-6Y30, 128GB storage and 4GB of RAM. That's not too far past a 128GB ipad.

Now, why in the nine hells of Balmer should it cost $1299 to get an i5-6300U, 256GB storage and 8GB of RAM?

Intel tray price of $281 for the m3-6Y30.
Intel tray price of $281 for the i5-6300U.

Samsung PM951 M.2 SSD from Amazon?
128GB: $74
256GB: $130

Samsung DDR3L RAM from Amazon?
4GB: $28
8GB: $44

No Fan: $0
Tiny fan: $8

Surface Pro 4 m3 128/4GB: $899
Surface Pro 4 i5 256/8GB: $1299

Retail component cost difference: $56+$16+$8=$80
MSRP difference: $400

I'm going to have to side with HoffY, the Surface Pro 4 is beating the shit out of the Surface Pro 4 on price.
 
Kueller said:
I'm going to have to side with HoffY, the Surface Pro 4 is beating the shit out of the Surface Pro 4 on price.
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Then what should the mark up be? I think it's pretty clear that Microsoft doesn't want to compete with its OEMs for now with the Surface line. If the point of the Surface line was to flood the market with product at commodity pricing Microsoft would be gunning at some of its best customers and partners.

The Surface line is still some of the best made and supported hardware in the x86 world. But it's clearly priced to try to avoid direct competition with Microsoft's OEMs and gunning for Apple products which have similar markups. For now it is the right way to go.
 
heatlesssun said:
Then what should the mark up be? I think it's pretty clear that Microsoft doesn't want to compete with its OEMs for now with the Surface line. If the point of the Surface line was to flood the market with product at commodity pricing Microsoft would be gunning at some of its best customers and partners.
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Commodity pricing for a laptop these days is ~$450 at surface pro/book level specs. They're not in the same ballpark, even at the low end.

The Surface line is still some of the best made and supported hardware in the x86 world. But it's clearly priced to try to avoid direct competition with Microsoft's OEMs and gunning for Apple products which have similar markups. For now it is the right way to go.
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Well that's quite a different justification for the price than:
heatlesssun said:
Indeed, whenever I ask someone to provide names of specific devices that are cheaper than Surface devices with the same build quality and features there's never really any reply.
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$1000 for the i5/256/8G, plus another $150 for the keyboard (made out of flimsy plastic that doesn't function wirelessly and feels like it costs $15 to produce) would be reasonable. I know it would be reasonable from the manufacturer's perspective because clearly M$ is able to sell lots of m3 versions with similar margins.

I think it would be reasonable from the buyer's perspective because I'd actually have upgraded to a SP4 i5/256/8G from my SP3 i5/128/4G for $1000. Instead I bought a $128GB microsd card for $45 and decided to wait for prices to come down (and battery life to improve).
 
Kueller said:
Commodity pricing for a laptop these days is ~$450 at surface pro/book level specs. They're not in the same ballpark, even at the low end.
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You're not going to get anything nearly was well built as a Surface Pro/Book for $450.

Kueller said:
Well that's quite a different justification for the price than:
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They aren't mutually exclusive reasons. If there were a device very similar to the Surface Book for less money I'd have been happy to by it.

Kueller said:
$1000 for the i5/256/8G, plus another $150 for the keyboard (made out of flimsy plastic that doesn't function wirelessly and feels like it costs $15 to produce) would be reasonable. I know it would be reasonable from the manufacturer's perspective because clearly M$ is able to sell lots of m3 versions with similar margins.
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When comparing the Surface Type Covers to other keyboard accessories out there, it's actually priced at the lower end. Apple charges $169 for the iPad Pro Smart Cover. The Google Pixel C's keyboard is $149. Neither has a trackpad.

Kueller said:
I think it would be reasonable from the buyer's perspective because I'd actually have upgraded to a SP4 i5/256/8G from my SP3 i5/128/4G for $1000. Instead I bought a $128GB microsd card for $45 and decided to wait for prices to come down (and battery life to improve).
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I can't argue with this. I'd probably not have bought a Surface Pro 4 coming from a Surface Pro 3 regardless of pricing considering the accessories as backwards compatible and it's just a huge upgrade really.

In any case the pricing on the Surface line is a complicated situation. Microsoft has spent a lot more in R&D on these devices than the typical laptop or tablet. Plus they have some high marketing costs with the ads and promotional deals like the NFL contract. And then there's the OEMs that they don't want to get into a price war with.

Sure I'd like the devices to be cheaper. But that's where the OEMs come in and big point about the Surface line, to be a leading product for OEMs.
 
Microsoft isn't really pricing the Surface line to avoid competing directly with Windows OEMs... it's because, at the high end, you have to turn a significant profit. Dell, HP and their ilk sell so cheaply because they're counting on volume to make up the difference. Microsoft doesn't have that luxury.

Besides, it's always funny when people complain about overpriced PCs from Apple or Microsoft... and then wonder why the companies with the 'good' prices are scaling back or bleeding cash (see: Acer, Toshiba, even Lenovo). Sustainable businesses involve higher prices than many people have been taught to accept.
 
Aurelius said:
Microsoft isn't really pricing the Surface line to avoid competing directly with Windows OEMs... it's because, at the high end, you have to turn a significant profit. Dell, HP and their ilk sell so cheaply because they're counting on volume to make up the difference. Microsoft doesn't have that luxury.
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I agree it's not just about arbitrarily pricing out of OEM sweet spots. Microsoft has discussed at length all that they did in creating the Surface line and have opened their labs for media PR. They obviously sunk a ton of cash into this, well beyond anything OEMs would do.

It's easy to say that this part costs this and the markup is unreasonable but the off the shelf components are what make the Surface line. It's all of the proprietary design in the materials, the kick stand of the Surface Pro, the hinge in the Surface Book. Microsoft now owns a develops the touch and pen digitizer and they developed the Windows Hello cameras in the Surface Pro 4/Book. The touch pad is theirs as well and not from a 3rd party.

When you have to develop and maintain this much engineering it's not going to be cheap and no one else besides Apple has as much control and responsibility over an x86 design. And they aren't known for competitive pricing and that's been working out extremely well for them.

There are those that will pay for premium if they think they can't get a better deal on something just as premium. And that's not just the compute components.
 
I don't have a problem paying for the quality engineering and manufacturing of the surface pro, I've bought a 1, 2, and 3.

What I don't like is also paying for stupid decisions. Like the 400M deal to have sports announcers use them on TV as iPad kickstands and NFL idiots throw free surface pros around like locker room frisbees. Or the 1.5B writedown on engineering/development/manufacturing costs for the totally obvious failure that the RT was going to be (windows phone on a tablet...not genius!). I'd prefer smarter decisions in development and a few hundred dollar lower prices at checkout.

And heatlesssun, next time you're meeting with Nadella, tell him the 3 was thin enough, I'd rather have better battery life. I know it was your mentioning my constant complaints that got the terrible 16:9 aspect ratio changed to the current glorious 3:2..:p
 
Kueller said:
I don't have a problem paying for the quality engineering and manufacturing of the surface pro, I've bought a 1, 2, and 3.

What I don't like is also paying for stupid decisions. Like the 400M deal to have sports announcers use them on TV as iPad kickstands and NFL idiots throw free surface pros around like locker room frisbees. Or the 1.5B writedown on engineering/development/manufacturing costs for the totally obvious failure that the RT was going to be (windows phone on a tablet...not genius!). I'd prefer smarter decisions in development and a few hundred dollar lower prices at checkout.

And heatlesssun, next time you're meeting with Nadella, tell him the 3 was thin enough, I'd rather have better battery life. I know it was your mentioning my constant complaints that got the terrible 16:9 aspect ratio changed to the current glorious 3:2..:p
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Here, here! Agree with that. Although to Apples credit, they made phone software on a tablet work, but it was a battle MS was never going to win.

Kueller, have you gotten (or are going to get) a 4? I have been envious of the form factor and pen for a while but a bit scared of the teething problems I have perceived form the sidelines. Is it as bad as the forums make it sound?

Thinking to pick up a SP4 at the beginning of the year but have been waiting for the software (w10) and drivers (Intel) to mature a bit. Battery life seems wildly varied. I get that this form factor and power is pretty special, but I would like to see it mostly sorted before I dive in.

Now, the important question, i5+520 or the i7+540?
Sketchup +CAD, Graphics work, PS, and that glorious pen. Mischief looks like an awesome program for drawing/sketching. Seems like the 540 is a no brainier but wanting some more concrete evidence. Nothing really out of the Trimble or Autodesk camp on skylake integrated compatibility that I can find.

I seem to find lots of reviews that say the i5 is good enough and the potential for battery battery life (not validated heavily in my mind) is what would keep me in the i5 camp.
 
I'm not going to get a 4. Not enough of an upgrade from the SP3. However, if I didn't have a SP3, I would get the SP4. Actually, I'd probably get a cheaper high end SP3 and the SP4 type cover, I think I saw the i5/256/8G SP3 for $899 the other day, that's not a bad deal.

The majority of complaints I hear lately are more about the surface Book than the Pro.
 
Kueller said:
I'm not going to get a 4. Not enough of an upgrade from the SP3. However, if I didn't have a SP3, I would get the SP4. Actually, I'd probably get a cheaper high end SP3 and the SP4 type cover, I think I saw the i5/256/8G SP3 for $899 the other day, that's not a bad deal.

The majority of complaints I hear lately are more about the surface Book than the Pro.
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Thanks for the insight. If I jump, Ill probably go with the 4, primarily for the pen functionality, but you make an interesting proposal.
 
Kueller said:
I don't have a problem paying for the quality engineering and manufacturing of the surface pro, I've bought a 1, 2, and 3.

What I don't like is also paying for stupid decisions. Like the 400M deal to have sports announcers use them on TV as iPad kickstands and NFL idiots throw free surface pros around like locker room frisbees. Or the 1.5B writedown on engineering/development/manufacturing costs for the totally obvious failure that the RT was going to be (windows phone on a tablet...not genius!). I'd prefer smarter decisions in development and a few hundred dollar lower prices at checkout.
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Let's say Microsoft did all of this and ended up selling cheaper Surface devices. Just how low does Microsoft go and at what point would they start directly competing with its OEMs to the point the OEMs start to get squeezed?

I think it's a much more sensitive subjective than people realize considering that OEMs are some of Microsoft's best customers. I'm not against lower prices, I just don't think it's as simple as cutting marketing costs and selling cheaper products.

Kueller said:
And heatlesssun, next time you're meeting with Nadella, tell him the 3 was thin enough, I'd rather have better battery life. I know it was your mentioning my constant complaints that got the terrible 16:9 aspect ratio changed to the current glorious 3:2..:p
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LOL! A tablet really can never be too light or thin. While certainly agree with what you're saying I think there's much pressure in the market to constantly keep making tablets thinner and lighter even at the expense of battery life
 
Kueller said:
The majority of complaints I hear lately are more about the surface Book than the Pro.
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The Surface Book with the dGPU is a pretty complex piece of machinery. That in combination of the detaching screen have been the source of most of the issues I've seen. Two months later the situation has improved quite a bit. I'm running the latest Intel and nVidia drivers and stability is very good now. Still some quirks. Like the not switching over to AC power when the keyboard is undocked.

Still by far the nicest mobile device I've owned and in historical terms not uber expensive compared to other convertible laptops I've bought in the past. The i7/16 GB/512 GB runs $2700. The last convertible laptop I bought prior, a Lenovo x220t which was pretty well loaded with 8 GB/320 GB HDD ran about $2200. A $500 difference across four years is hard to translate especially considering just how far superior the SB in pretty much everyway compared to that x220t.
 
You got ripped off on your x220t then. $2200 might've been the MSRP, but after the typical 40% off lenovo sales, a coupon and cashback, I remember them being under $1k.

M$ doesn'r run 40% off sales. They don't run any sales, it's all on the retailers, at best you'll get 10%-15% off.
 
Kueller said:
You got ripped off on your x220t then. $2200 might've been the MSRP, but after the typical 40% off lenovo sales, a coupon and cashback, I remember them being under $1k.
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I don't remember an x220t of the config I ordered ever coming in under $1k. At least not when launched. They may have towards the end, the x220t was the last swivel screen convertible that Lenovo made I believe.

Kueller said:
M$ doesn'r run 40% off sales. They don't run any sales, it's all on the retailers, at best you'll get 10%-15% off.
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So at 40% off the Surface Book I bought would come in at $1620. A 16 GB/512 GB detachable screen hybrid laptop of that quality at that price would have OEMs running for the hills. The only way that people that don't like the pricing on the Surface line is if Microsoft goes toe to toe with its OEMs.
 
heatlesssun said:
I don't remember an x220t of the config I ordered ever coming in under $1k. At least not when launched. They may have towards the end, the x220t was the last swivel screen convertible that Lenovo made I believe...
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Lenovo halted the Thinkpad line of swivels with the x230t (Ivy Bridge). You could technically throw in the Thinkpad Twist the following model year; however, it was much like their low-end E series in that it was a Thinkpad in name only.

Not sure what they went for brand new, but near end of life, you could get one new with i5/500gb HDD/4gb ram for just under $1,000, and, of course, it was more economical to go that route and pick up your own SSD and up to 16gb ram (which is not a possibility on the SP4 or SB). You also got a crappy res (1366x768) vs the sp4 and sb, and only 2 pts of touch vs 10 pt.
 
Deinos said:
Lenovo halted the Thinkpad line of swivels with the x230t (Ivy Bridge). You could technically throw in the Thinkpad Twist the following model year; however, it was much like their low-end E series in that it was a Thinkpad in name only.

Not sure what they went for brand new, but near end of life, you could get one new with i5/500gb HDD/4gb ram for just under $1,000, and, of course, it was more economical to go that route and pick up your own SSD and up to 16gb ram (which is not a possibility on the SP4 or SB). You also got a crappy res (1366x768) vs the sp4 and sb, and only 2 pts of touch vs 10 pt.
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Thanks for the info. I was looking at Lenovo's site and checked out the price of the Helix which is Lenovo's detachable laptop hybrid. It starts at $1,239.99 with the keyboard dock, 4 GB RAM/128 GB SSD with a Core M-5Y10c processor. The base model Surface Book is $260 more but with a better CPU, screen and battery life. Of course there's sales and discounts that isn't common for the Surface line but if Surface devices were running hundreds cheaper than they are there'd be a lot more direct price competition with OEMs.
 
My issue with pricing, and this is limited to Microsoft, has to do with RAM and the form factor (not changeable, even storage can be added with SD cards, USB, external, cloud, etc.). If the S3 or SP4 base model had 4GB and 8GB ram respectively I'd have one of those. But i don't care to pay for the large markup just needed for that. The Surface Book is even better in how the SKU jump for the memory upgrade is $800-$1000 dollars for 8GB more memory.
 
I just joined the Surface Pro club. I just got a Surface Pro 3 i5/8gb/256gb with the Surface Pro 4 type cover for about $450 out of pocket brand new. It's an amazing device. I love it. It truly does replace a laptop. The SP4 type cover is amazing. The trackpad is probably better than many trackpad on regular laptops. I got a nice leather sleeve for it that's very firm. It works PERFECTLY as a base to set the SP on for using it in my lap while I'm sitting or laying in bed (like right now typing this post). It feels good as a tablet as well.

I know everyone already knows all this, but I was just blown away. I had to post. The SP4 type cover is just fantastic. The keys feel perfect. I haven't set up my fingerprint reader yet. Might do that right now.

TLDR - SP is awesome and SP4 type cover is awesome.
 
big_aug said:
I just joined the Surface Pro club. I just got a Surface Pro 3 i5/8gb/256gb with the Surface Pro 4 type cover for about $450 out of pocket brand new. It's an amazing device. I love it. It truly does replace a laptop. The SP4 type cover is amazing. The trackpad is probably better than many trackpad on regular laptops. I got a nice leather sleeve for it that's very firm. It works PERFECTLY as a base to set the SP on for using it in my lap while I'm sitting or laying in bed (like right now typing this post). It feels good as a tablet as well.

I know everyone already knows all this, but I was just blown away. I had to post. The SP4 type cover is just fantastic. The keys feel perfect. I haven't set up my fingerprint reader yet. Might do that right now.

TLDR - SP is awesome and SP4 type cover is awesome.
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That's a nice deal. Where did you get it? Used?
 
jyi786 said:
That's a nice deal. Where did you get it? Used?
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I got a bunch of gift cards from best buy for the ATT add a line and it was on sale the week before christmans for $899. Used the Edu $100 coupon to make it $799 and then $857 after tax. Gift cards got me to like $350 out of pocket + the type cover and this nice sleeve. So less than $500 out of pocket total.

It's freaking amazing. The fingerprint reader is freaking badass. I wish you could program it to log you into websites and stuffs. I bet that's coming. It'll like auto input your login information that's stored in a vault associated with your fingerprint. The fingerprint reader is about as close to instant as you can get I think. Love it.

The type cover itself is unreal. It feels like a laptop to me. The keys are satisfying and the layout/spacing is good. Like I said, it might be the best track pad Ive ever had. Although, I've never had a truly high end laptop.

This thing is a beast. So glad I got it.
 
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