The lack of independent commercial operating systems is a sad situation

Discussion in 'Operating Systems' started by partikl, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. partikl

    partikl Limp Gawd

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    https://pcpartpicker.com/products/os/

    I know there are Linux distros, macOS, BSD flavors, and a few others. And that I know of, the only hardware independent and commercially supported of those is a few flavors of Linux, which are geared toward enterprise and servers. None of them are aimed at enthusisasts.
     
  2. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    Well... Linux is free. So why are you worried. Its a better OS then that junk on sale at part picker. What exactly are you looking for in terms of "Support" ? Having to call a phone number to activate your OS, or reactivate it every time you change out a part ? Or have you really honest to goodness as a power user EVER called or Emailed MS ?

    Paid support for regular users is highly over rated. (honestly its over rated for most companies as well... for most small and medium sized companies they are going to end up paying a local tech company for direct support anyway... and for larger outfits they will hire their own tech monkeys)

    If your new to Linux start there....
    https://manjaro.org/
    https://manjaro.org/download/gnome/
    Grab the ISO....
    Make a bottable USB...
    https://www.balena.io/etcher/ (yes its electron based but it runs on every possible OS... and for 99% of operating systems out there its select iso and click flash done)

    If you start with Manjaro you will be up and running in 5-15 min depending on how fast your rig is. AMD or NV you'll be ready to game the second you boot up. Steam is preinstalled as are AMD open source drivers or NV closed source. Unlike windows installing your OS will not be an all night affair.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
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  3. JSumrall

    JSumrall Limp Gawd

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    Depends on what you mean by enthusiast?

    A PC enthusiast is usually someone that buys very high end hardware, makes his machine look fancy, runs almost everything overclocked, and plays games on it. And 99% of them run Windows. Probably 99.99%

    I don't quite follow your thought process that Linux isn't an enthusiast operating system. Every distribution I have tried (and I've tried a lot) all have a desktop version aimed at desktop users.

    Linux does a great job of separating the GUI experience from the system that runs underneath, allowing for greater customization than Windows; something an enthusiast should be interested in.

    Lord knows I have had my issues with Linux over the years, but since I started investing the time in learning how it works, I am definitely moving into the Linux is greater than Windows camp.

    Now if Microsoft would just opensource DirectX, I'd have zero reason to use Windows ever again. :D
     
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  4. JSumrall

    JSumrall Limp Gawd

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    I think I called Microsoft Support once and it was pretty much to get help activating the OS. lmao

    I am pretty much tech support for every person I know.

    I was looking into Manjaro myself yesterday and downloaded it tonight. I made the mistake of attempting to install it on that stupid Optimus enabled laptop of mine and yep, you guessed it, errors all over the place. Really hating that laptop.
     
  5. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    OP thinks to himself, let me just leave this here and.........
     
  6. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    https://wiki.manjaro.org/index.php?title=Optimus_Manager

    I know you have probably already read this. But if not take a look I guess. It sounds like Manjaro has an optimus switcher but its picky and only likes a couple Display managers. LightDM or SDDM sound like the only real options... GDM The gnome manager sounds like its broken.

    No idea why Nvidia hasn't enabled offloading capabilities to their Linux driver.... I don't know perhaps there is a sticking point somewhere, Who knows its all closed source. ;) lol
     
  7. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    and.... they get some actual useful advice. Its easy to leave windows and its free. The only major hurdle to someone building a PC and saying I wish I could dump windows is not knowing what to replace it with. Cause sure Linux isn't sold... so where do you start ? What distro is right ?

    So I offered some advice. Outside the edge case of the Intel/NV laptop setups which are a pain. There are multiple very good new user friendly distros that retain all the power user goodness of Linux. Manjaro has been my go to for a few years now. Installs with a sane mix of 100% free and all the codex / closed source drivers ect that get a new user up and running in minutes. I have yet to talk to anyone that wanted a windows alternative that has installed manjaro and not had a very good experience. Of course you have the normal learning a new Operating system issues... but none of the FUD type stuff most people expect after hearing negative crap about Linux for years.

    In the last year that even includes people playing high end AAA games... if your building a NEW machine with a newer AMD Card (my recommendation if your going 100% Linux GO AMD, AMD performance in Linux is much better then windows... and NV Linux drivers don't cheat games like they do in windows so the differential is much smaller.) But no matter what hardware you go with if anything current from the low end of things up can play AAA games in proton with very little issue now, and that is only getting better. Even with my fairly low end Ryzen / RX570 I have no issues playing games like Witcher 3 at 80FPS The mordor games around the same... got the freebe A Creed game running a couple days ago (wasn't sure I would get it going being uplay) Used the current lutris installer which grabbed a protoned up version of wine 4.6 w/DXVK for me and it fired up with zero issues and nice frame rates. Things just get better and better in terms of games... and Windows doesn't do anything at all better. ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
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  8. Chuklr

    Chuklr Gawd

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    When are Linux threads going to be posted in the Linux subforum? ROTFLMAO
     
  9. Monk0101

    Monk0101 [H]Lite

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    " Or have you really honest to goodness as a power user EVER called or Emailed MS ? Paid support for regular users is highly over rated. (honestly its over rated for most companies as well... for most small and medium sized companies they are going to end up paying a local tech company for direct support anyway... and for larger outfits they will hire their own tech monkeys)"



    Windows support is good. Heck, without me doing anything, I get a call every week or so from "Windows Support" to let me know I have a virus on my computer. However, on the last call the "gentleman" had trouble pronouncing "COMPUTER". He must have been new?[/QUOTE]
     
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  10. Brian_B

    Brian_B 2[H]4U

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    I would say of all the operating systems, Linux (in general) is the ~only~ option aimed almost exclusively at enthusiasts.
     
  11. JSumrall

    JSumrall Limp Gawd

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    I'll post my response to this in my linux thread.
     
  12. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    The OP dropped this and left, that was his or her only agenda. :D
     
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  13. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    No doubt, but in the oft chance they come back to look. I took all of one min to point out their flawed thinking. ;)
     
  14. acascianelli

    acascianelli [H]ardness Supreme

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    So you're looking for a commercially support operating system that isn't Linux, Windows, BSD, or Mac OS?

    There are enthusiast operating systems, the commercial support is going to be the problem. That's not to say there won't be any support, but it'll likely be community support. Which is arguably more useful that commercial support.

    https://www.haiku-os.org/
    https://www.reactos.org/
    https://genode.org/
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  15. partikl

    partikl Limp Gawd

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    No agenda. Just an observation, and a very obvious one that doesn't get too much attention. Linux can be a great alternative to Windows, but being that Windows has a virtual monopoly on the desktop most things are going to work there without as much fuss and workarounds that might be required for Linux. And some things practically just aren't going to work on Linux (lack of drivers, no Wine compatibility, etc.) This is no fault of Linux. It's just the way that things ended up as a result of Microsoft's aggressive business practices.
     
  16. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    Have you used Linux lately ? Lack of drivers is not an issue... neither is wine. The only windows software that we can't run via wine anymore are heavy DRM laden games... and even those run for the most part without issue. The DRM heavy ones that don't are using the type of DRM that no one should run anyway... they don't run well under wine cause they are doing BS like hooking into root kernel systems that windows shouldn't allow be allowing either.

    Having said that if you really want a ships with something other then windows machine... Google is selling tons of chromeos machines. Granted that is mobile systems right now... but for MOST people there is nothing chormeos doesn't do better then windows. Only acceptions are gamers and people that really don't have high speed internet.
     
  17. partikl

    partikl Limp Gawd

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    ChadD, I use Linux (and Windows) and have been for some years. And I mostly get along with Linux pretty well. The variety of available desktop software on Linux pales in comparison to what is available for Windows though. And yes, lots of Windows software can run on Linux via Wine, but lots of it can't or can't run with the same performance. As one example, there are tons of audio plugins on Windows. Some of them can run on Linux via Wine, but more often than not, audio latency suffers when running plugins via Wine in comparison to running all native. And there just aren't that many high quality audio plugins that are native to Linux yet. Most development of audio plugins has been targeted toward Windows and Mac over the years. It's a similar situation with audio interfaces and drivers. Yes, lots of audio interfaces have ALSA drivers, and lots don't. And for plenty of the ones that do, some functionality doesn't work. None of this is any knock on Linux. The developers of plugins and drivers just haven't developed their stuff for native Linux.

    But I digress. My point wasn't to get into a Linux vs. Windows debate. Both have their pros and cons. And ultimately, I am moving away from Windows, because for me the cons of Microsoft outweigh the pros of Windows. And there are plenty of pros to Linux.

    My point is that Windows has held a virtual monopoly in the commercial space for desktop operating systems. I'm not crying about not having someone to call for support. Who does that any way? Businesses do need support, but it is probably on the rare side for individuals to call up Microsoft for support. To me, the benefits of a commercial desktop operating system are that the developers have funding to work on all of the operating system fulltime, which benefits the operating system, hardware developers, application developers, and end users. So for example, instead of a user spending much time with wading through configuring ALSA, Jack, and low latency or realtime kernels on a commandline as a prerequisite for solid audio recording performance (and likely not even knowing how to use a commandline to begin with or understanding what he is doing and why), the user installs a driver in the same way that he installs an application and just gets down to the business of audio recording. And the user can do that because the dirty details were worked out between the developers of the os and the developers of the drivers and applications. And that was possible because the developers had the necessary funding to be able to work fulltime on these sorts of issues, not leaving it for end users to work out for themselves.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  18. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    As someone with quite a bit of audio experience myself if your using windows your doing it wrong anyway. MAC has always been the superior audio platform and that probably isn't changing anytime soon. Core audio is baked deep into Apples OS and its simply superior to windows in every way. Its also superior to Linux right now. Linux has pipewire in the works which should replace both pulse and jack... but its not there yet. When it comes hopefully things will be a little better. The main advantage of core audio on a mac is plugging in basically any USB audio device instantly exposes all the low level kernel access.... no specific driver needed. Pipewire should bring that same level of functionality in time to Linux.

    As far as commercial Linux software... its a case of no middle ground software. There are very good commercial Linux Daws, and video editing, and VFX software. There just isn't much prosumer grade stuffs. Its all high end or FOSS/low cost. Having said that a DAW like Reaper offers very good VST and VSTi compatability if that is what your looking for. The main issue with high end Linux software is often cost... Bitwig is a great Abelton alike made by some of the original Abelton folks (believe its better myself) and it fully supports Linux Mac or windows its not cheap although neither is Abelton. On the video and VFX side of things its sort of the same situation. There are a lot of high end software pacakges like Davinci resolve and Houdine that are very much Linux software... there just isn't a ton of 100-200 dollar price range prosumer type options.

    I understand what your saying now... just not sure commercial operating system is the option. I think all we really need is for more OEMs to get behind Linux a bit and start shipping some actual Linux machines. I also wouldn't be to shocked if in the next couple years Google starts offering some form of ChromeOS for the desktop with more local storage... it would basically be a locked down version of Linux. Good or bad (mostly bad) there will be our third Commercial option. lol :)
     
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  19. partikl

    partikl Limp Gawd

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    Sounds like you haven't used an RME device on Windows. Performance is absolutely solid. RME is something of a unicorn among audio devices. I can have Reaper up with plugins (Reaper fanboy here!) piping ADAT in/out to another audio device, a browser playing video, and a heavy resource use game running, and RME doesn't give so much as a click even at the lowest buffer setting of 32 samples. Not that I would do that on a practical level, but the point is that with RME I don't have to think about what might cause audio issues or jump through hoops to get that level of performance. But that is on Windows. And I just installed the driver in the same way as installing any application. Getting things set up in Linux isn't nearly that simple, and I don't know if the RME card will end up having the same level of solid performance on Linux. I have tinkered with Linux for daw use, but I haven't fully set it up for daw use yet.

    I think Linux will eventually take over the desktop. It seems inevitable. Microsoft has been making bad moves and developed a bad image for themselves. Lots of people are questioning the future of Mac as a unified hardware/software platform (but maybe it will be the case that Macos becomes independent of hardware, which could be good). The majority of Linux distros are freely available, and once OEM's begin leveraging that to their advantage for the desktop, as has been already done with Android for phones and tablets, I think there will be something of a landslide. And Linux is nice for general use, for developers, and for companies running custom solutions. But there is still a pretty big hole for power users who aren't computer tech minded (as in configuring many things on a commandline) for use cases such as music/audio production, video, and photo.

    Any way, it seems an odd situation to me that Microsoft has been so successful at maintaining a virtual monopoly for the commercial desktop operating system space.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  20. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    They have been paying OEMs off for over 30 years its not really all that shocking.
     
  21. partikl

    partikl Limp Gawd

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    Even given that, it still seems odd that something based around Linux or BSD hasn't challenged Windows for desktop use. Like I said before, I think that will change over time. It just seems odd to me that it hasn't happened yet.
     
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  22. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    The power of free $$$ is pretty strong. Just look at laptops Google has basically had to pay a lot of OEMs off to even offer a chromeOS option in the low end. I'm not sure that would have even been possible if Google hadn't already basically won the phone market.

    I agree though yes the Linux Kernel will basically rule in the end. I'm sure at some point MS themselves will replace their won kernel with Linux. On the non MS options Google is pretty much the only company in position to really offer another option. They do have one now.... and I'm sure its just a matter of time before they push into prosumer desktop type stuff as well. Their Game streaming is only in the works to offer gaming on ChromeOS.
     
  23. partikl

    partikl Limp Gawd

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    Google is working on their own non-Linux operating system right now called Fuchsia, based around the microkernel that Haiku uses.
     
  24. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    Linux and lovin' it!

    You're not going to challenge any OS that comes pre installed on the device when you buy it. Such a fact by no means indicates such an OS is an awesome OS, it simply means the marketing is strong with this one.
     
  25. Deadjasper

    Deadjasper [H]ard|Gawd

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    The reason is problems in Windows are relatively easy to solve, problems in linux, not so much. Linux is great as long as you leave it alone and don't try to fix that which isn't broken (hint: NO UPDATING !!!!). Linux is not user friendly under the hood. "No user serviceable parts inside" applies to the average computer user. This is gradually changing and hopefully Linux will be on par with Windows one day.
     
  26. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    In your analogy I would say windwos and osx are the confusing no consumer changeable part options.

    I mean if you buy a new car you CAN change out almost anything if you know what your doing... but most people don't need to or have the skill.

    Windows is just as and perhaps even more confusing to make low level power user type changes with IF the operating system allows you to make them at all.

    No changing out some things in Linux isn't every user easy just like Ford and GM don't make it a simple any user affair to change out say a transmission. It can be done but not by noobies. :)

    Open regedit... navigate to...
    HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\TimeZoneInformation
    create a 32 bit dword entry add text
    RealTimeIsUniversal... and give it a value of 1.

    That is a "simple" instruction to force windows to keep proper time...... You know many average users that would find that easy ?

    Linux is just as easy to deal with for pure computer noobs for the most part these days... as long as they are starting with the proper distro. Give a new computer user that has very little windows or osx or LInux ... machines with Windows 10 / PopOS or Manjaro and their level of no issue will be about the same. And if they run into anything major on any of them they will be just as hosed without a computer litterate friend to talk to. (Windows perhaps has the advantage of having more "litterate" friends around that can help with things like Regedit Msconfig usage ect... but that is and will change with time. Things LIke android and chromeos have really accelerated that common basic command fu know how imo)
     
  27. Ocellaris

    Ocellaris Ginger @le, an alcoholic's best friend.

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    People said this 20 years ago.
     
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  28. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Here's the real question: what problem does this solve?

    Hell, what problem does Desktop Linux solve?

    People want an appliance. They have things to do. Running their 'system' isn't high up on the list.

    Just being an alternative isn't a commercial motivation. It has to be better in ways that matter to consumers, and by and large, while the Linux kernel finds it way into a great many things, desktop GNU/Linux isn't better in ways that matter to consumers.
     
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  29. Deadjasper

    Deadjasper [H]ard|Gawd

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    Sadly this is true.
     
  30. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    I have to say, this in no way whatsoever reflects my experience under Linux whatsoever, in fact the issue with updating is totally more of an issue under Windows than Linux.

    I update all the time, never have an issue. Where I do have issues under Linux, the Ubuntu community or outright logic always has the answers, problems are really no harder to solve than they are under Windows.
     
  31. BlueLineSwinger

    BlueLineSwinger Gawd

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    Kinda the opposite, really.

    Windows system settings are stored in a complex registry that can only be accessed via system tools and APIs. Linux settings are usually individual, application/service-specific text files that are commented/documented and simple to edit.

    The history of Win10 would seem to contradict the ease and success of updating relative to Linux. I've never had a Linux box say anything like "Fuck you, I'm restarting now in the middle of your Fallout 4 game, and I'm only going to install part of the broken update and force you to revert".

    About the only thing that might make fixing Windows "simpler" is the larger installed base means it's somewhat more likely someone has come across the problem previously and hopefully documented the fix.
     
  32. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    Linux solves a number of problems currently present under Windows.

    People are jumping from desktop to mobile in droves. I can assure you that many are doing so to escape the numerous issues surrounding Windows (Viruses, malware, PUPs, trojans, cryptolockers, double extension hack emails and overall general reliability - Things they do not experience on the mobile platform), basically people are loosing trust in Windows as a platform.

    So if people can jump from desktop to mobile with little inconvenience and mobile is undoubtedly a more limiting platform compared to Windows, I see no reason whatsoever just why thay cannot jump from Windows to Linux and overcome literally all of the issues mentioned above.

    You are right from the sense that people want an appliance, that's the sole reason for the popularity of Windows - It's installed on the device when you buy it. People use it for that reason alone, many don't even like Windows 10. You also need to consider that globally, Android is vastly more popular an OS than Windows, and it doesn't suffer the infection issues present under Windows - So the excuse that Windows is the more attacked platform due to it's popularity doesn't stand to scrutiny.
     
  33. DeaconFrost

    DeaconFrost [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I'm a Linux and Windows user. Just my opinion, but the more Linux aims to replace Windows...the more un-Linux like it would become. I'm about a 50/50 split between the two on all computers in my house. I have no intentions of turning this into a battle, but Linux just isn't as user friendly as Windows. We all know friends and family who would never be able to sit and use Linux as a replacement....without needing near constant help. I don't say that as a dig at Linux. I just don't see the two as being an oranges to oranges comparison. They both fill a different set of needs, with some overlap.
     
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  34. Deadjasper

    Deadjasper [H]ard|Gawd

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    I sure hope that some day Linux will be idiot friendly. What a wonderful world it will be.........
     
  35. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    And yet, if you'd used Linux all your life you'd be saying the same about Windows.

    Linux isn't hard to use if you stick to software centers, which is entirely possible - Chances are the average user doesn't even need to access the software center as everything needed comes preinstalled with a packaged distro.

    Fact is, there's very little in the way of differences between MacOS and Linux - Get past the basics of MacOS and the terminal is as necessary as it is under Linux, yet people class MacOS as an OS for the layman. My wife has a chuckle every time she sees a Windows user claim Linux is difficult to use, my 9yo daughter installed Discord on my Linux PC by herself without using the software center.
     
  36. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed [H]ard|Gawd

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    I don't. Catering to idiots reduces security.
     
  37. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Possibly; however, assuming that the operating systems remain in their current forms for the hypothetical, 'desktop computing' would be inherently less accessible if say everyone used todays POSIX-style operating systems.

    I'll agree that it's entirely possible, and at the same time, the anti-non-free movement within the greater Linux community really hurts here. At least Ubuntu doesn't take that tack. They've taken flack for that stance too. To wit:

    ...on Windows, push the Windows key and type 'spotify'; perhaps even use Cortana to do it with a voice query, and you'll be led straight to an installation source. While this is possible on some distributions, it's by far not the standard, and by far more difficult as software gets more obscure.

    Once you've exhausted pre-installed software and that which is available in software centers, you've also exhausted the patience of 99% of the population in terms of technical investment. You're now in the realm of what is a tool to some and a toy to others (and both for a few), and no longer an appliance for the masses to just get something done.

    I'll also submit that most of this comes down to the desktop environment and distribution. These are not 'Linux' problems or even 'GNU/Linux' problems. Apple has done quite well in abstracting BSD for use as a computing appliance system. Microsoft has done almost as well. No one else, on the desktop, really comes closer.

    Depending on how 'security' is approached, this is true. Most desktop-focused Linux distros do pretty well here, with Ubuntu going so far as to disable 'su' outright, effectively doing the same thing as Microsoft's UAC.

    And on that note, I've tracked how Microsoft has approached their fairly unique problem of 'idiot user security', and while I consider their current tack a bit invasive (tyrannical even), I also get what they're trying to do and can't say that there's really a better compromise between security and freedom.

    Another approach that I see very likely gaining prominence over time is the mobile model, which is typified for 'desktop' use currently by ChromeOS. From a technical and security perspective, ChromeOS seems to be an effective answer to the problem of putting relatively powerful and flexible computing devices in the hands of the masses while maintaining a modicum of security.

    The big question of course, for many of these solutions, is privacy.
     
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  38. SoRnMaN

    SoRnMaN Gawd

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    Wow, default install of Ubuntu 18.04 does this exact thing. Press Windows key, type 'Spotify', then click to install it.
     
  39. NoOther

    NoOther [H]ardness Supreme

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    First there have been a number of different OS's over the years. MS won because of how they were able to market, sell and control the environment. The biggest win was being able to set the "standards" for how things were being designed. They basically got a lot of "standards" locked in and designed for their specific environment. DirectX being one of the biggest examples of that.

    Things actually don't "just work" for Windows. There are lots of problems developing things for Windows and managing resources. Windows includes a lot of bulk and a lot of creep. This causes issues, one of the main results of this is security vulnerabilities. The other main result is the amount of resources it takes to run a number of things on Windows.

    Now the issue is that most companies don't see profit in trying to develop an alternative to Windows. It have a huge upfront cost without any real guarantee of return. It is a bad bet. What happens instead is you get more groups lending support to Linux rather than trying to develop their own OS. Also you are going to see more niche products developed that include an OS tailored specifically to the device and its purpose. This is far easier to do with a Linux clone than a Windows clone, because of the Open Source nature as well as the huge amount of customization you can do, including modifying and building your own kernel.

    Eventually the "desktop" itself is going to go completely by the wayside and be replaced by other items that will tie into a bigger centralized system, most likely a cloud service. Even Microsoft realizes this and has shifting almost all their thinking that way already.
     
  40. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    Feb 8, 2016
    Pretty much the standard gnome behaviour too... so count basically every major Gnome running distro in that. (don't know for sure... but I'm sure KDE does as well)

    Attached my wives manjaro install. Of course she already has spotify installed. Still one better then windows she can hit super type spot and uninstall things as well. :p lol
     

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    Last edited: May 6, 2019