The infamous 30" quest: Apple vs Others.

Discussion in 'Displays' started by ilarehson, Sep 11, 2008.

  1. ilarehson

    ilarehson [H]Lite

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    After going through multiple forums and the wonderful world of the 30" behemoths, I am yet still (how surprising right?) undecided.

    My eyes currently are on the Apple Cinema Display. The monitor will primarily be for movies, some digital image editing, and lastly and most NON-frequently, gaming.

    My question is, if I can get my hands on one for approximately $1000, is it worth it? Or should I be looking at something else.:confused:

    Another thing that draws me towards the apple is that, for some reason, should I choose to sell it when LEDs become more affordable, I feel as though its resale value will be higher, and therefore less loss of $$$.

    Any help is appreciated
     
  2. Mr. Wolf

    Mr. Wolf [H]ardness Supreme

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    I think the Apple is over-priced compared to other 30" LCDs. I tend to doubt it would hold a higher resale value than other brands.
     
  3. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ardOCP Motherboard Editor

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    For that price I'd go for it. Otherwise I'd go with the Dell 3007WFP-HC. I've got the non-HC model and it kicks ass.
     
  4. astrallite

    astrallite Gawd

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    Pros:

    - External Power Brick. In this day and age, any one who owns an LCD or LCD TV knows all about the transformer/coil noise/buzz. Quietest LCD out there.
    - Nice for decor...

    Cons

    - No height adjustment
    - No swivel for portrait mode
    - No HDCP support
    - No A-TW polarizer
    - No internal monitor scaling

    Which is the complete opposite of the NEC LCD2690wuxi.
     
  5. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ardOCP Motherboard Editor

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    I'd argue that the lack of an internal scaler is a good thing. There is no input lag with the 30" panels that don't have them. I've heard of nothing but problems with input lag on the ones that do. Though I know nothing about the NEC model you mentioned. Being that it's an NEC I'm sure that it's going to be expensive.
     
  6. astrallite

    astrallite Gawd

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    Yeah, the 30" NEC does retail at about $400 more than the Apple.
     
  7. ilarehson

    ilarehson [H]Lite

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    ...True Pros/Cons, however, I too would agree with Dan that a lack of a scaler is a plus point in that input lag will not have to be an issue. As for swivel, most 30" do not do that, and I am looking for that 2560X1600 real estate, so provided it is a 30" ...

    That HDCP support is actually an issue that gets to me; however, on some mac forums, some people seemed to have bypassed the issue...possibly a glitch?? I have yet to solve this issue myself, after all, HDCP is built into the hardware

    Expensive is right, which is why I was thinking for the price that I am getting it at, if I should sway more towards the dell.


    Any other suggestions at that pricepoint?

    Thanks for input :cool:
     
  8. syntx

    syntx Limp Gawd

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    You got to be kidding right?

    I have seen Apple 30" right next to the Dell 3008 and let me tell you
    the Dell is far superior.

    The Apple as a 700:1 contrast ratio and it shows.

    Also, comparing the two monitors next to each other gives
    you a much better idea which has better blacks and colours.


    Anyway, Apple 0 - Dell 10
     
  9. batmanwcm

    batmanwcm Gawd

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    If you can get the ACD for $1000, get it. It's great for the things you want to do. The resale value will be higher when you decide to sell it to upgrade.
     
  10. astrallite

    astrallite Gawd

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    Defeating HDCP would cost you a lot of money. The usual culprits are some kind of digital to analog decoder with the proper electronics to pass the HDCP "handshake". But an ACD doesn't have RGB input, so you would need something that can do Digital to Analog (to shave out HDCP) then re-encode Analog to Digital.

    With the chain of electronics you'd need to pull that off, you've spent enough money that you may as well have used to get a better monitor.

    As far as image quality, the ACD uses a fairly ancient LG panel, they've improved since then.
     
  11. brumwald

    brumwald Gawd

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    There should be no need to ever involve analog.
    Just strip the HDCP out of the digital signal, shouldn't be a big deal (technically). The reason for going analog should be to accomodate older devices that doesn't have digital inputs and/or for legal reasons.

    The problem should be that few (if any?) devices that has HDCP is able to output to 2560x1600, except for graphic cards perhaps (besides isn't it bypassed in software anyway?). I wouldn't let something as silly as HDCP to have any influence on which 30" display to get, but thats me.
     
  12. ilarehson

    ilarehson [H]Lite

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    Thanks for the input everyone,

    As for HDCP, although it is an issue, I suppose for me it is a minor one. I am thinking of pulling the trigger on it.

    Many theoretical reviews online comparing the 3007 from dell and the ACD have the ACD winning, can anyone second this in practicality?
     
  13. philjohn

    philjohn Limp Gawd

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    Apple are due to refresh the line though, so it may be worth holding out, either for the new model, or for retailers clearing their old stock and offering some great deals.
     
  14. zkv1

    zkv1 [H]Lite

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    My firm owns most 30" panels (including the Apple and both the 3007 and 3008 Dell) in multi-monitor set-ups. I personally come back to the no-scaler Dell 3007. Straight out of the box for movies the Apple color balance does look more impressive. You can fiddle the color balance on your panels though you graphics card (see the endless threads around here) but most people don't and even then the Apple will (to my preferences) be better for movies than the Dell (But not enough to really matter).

    That means your personal color preferences will drive your opinion of the panel when you use it. For regular PC work this matters less.

    Z
     
  15. skeeder

    skeeder [H]ard|Gawd

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    Apple hasn't updated this panel in forever. They keep the same prices as before. AND it lacks tons of features dell has. (plus...return policy with dell is amazing!)

    The one drawback is.

    Its not a pretty.

    Think you can get over that?
     
  16. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ardOCP Motherboard Editor

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    Well the Dell may not be as pretty as the Apple but I'd hardly call it ugly.
     
  17. MrGuvernment

    MrGuvernment [H]ard as it Gets

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    HDCP isn't implemented yet on any content, wasn't it postponed until 2010 to which it will then be mandatory..
     
  18. ilarehson

    ilarehson [H]Lite

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    I think I'l manage :D

    However, if you had the choice, at 1000, would you still invest in the apple (thinking in the back of your mind that with apple updating theirs, maybe they'll send a new one if 1-2 years down the road (provided yours is in warranty, too) your ACD gets sluggish ;) )

    decisions decision . . .
     
  19. skeeder

    skeeder [H]ard|Gawd

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    Its the same thing with people having extended warrenties on their screens and after 2 years calling because for some reason it went out...or died...or sluggish...I've heard of people getting upgrades this way.
     
  20. Yelnats

    Yelnats Limp Gawd

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    Apple has been due to refresh the line for years now. I don't see anything pointing to it happening soon.

    I think the only reason that Apple hasn't updated this monitor is because there are no other non-HC panels available. The only way I can see them using a higher gamut monitor is if the OS could let the monitor emulate a standard gamut across any application.
     
  21. astrallite

    astrallite Gawd

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    I don't know about bluray players, but you can't output a PS3 (and I assume xbox360) on a monitor/TV that does not have HDCP support. The first generation of HDCP capable screens weren't that good at the HDCP "handshake" either, the screen would keep flashing which was incredibly annoying.
     
  22. SatTech

    SatTech 2[H]4U

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    PowerDVD sure won't play HD content if any component doesn't meet DRM specs. It didn't like my dell 19" LCD, so I had to run AnyDVD to strip the DRM...



    [​IMG]
     
  23. videomasterz

    videomasterz Gawd

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    yup was in the same boat as you almost 3 years ago, when the DELL 3007WFP first came out, I didnt know if I should choose the Apple of the DELL? I went with the Apple got it for $1650 including shipping, and this was considered cheap back in 2006, for the Apple Cinema.

    Just recently couple months ago, I got curious on how the newer generation S-IPS would be like and how other 30"s would compare with the Apple. I tried the new 3007WFP-HC for a day, right away did not like it, white were not balance.. kinda redish.... bad antiglare coating... on white background super sparkle effect..at least with the apple cinema it wasnt that bad. The Wide Color Gamut backlighting for the DELL made the red stand out so much it hurt my eyes.

    Then got the Samsung 30" 305T+ (plus) version... it is wide color gamut.... but the reds arnt intense as the dell 30" HC panel. the color is a bit better on this S-PVA panel not over saturated...compared to the S-IPS WideColor Gamut panels....

    Sometimes I do miss my apple cinema 30" because the colors were dead on... the monitor looked awesome... it actually looks bigger.. than the samsung and DELL... the 14ms delay... that Apple advertises is probably false.. more like 11ms.. because with the newer S-IPS panel... I did not notice any difference with the ghosting... maybe the DELL HC was proabably a bit better.. but not significantly better where you needed to ditch your apple cinema to get the newer S-IPS. ...

    Bottomline for you.. if the Apple Cinema is $1,000 get it!! wait couple more years were here is a huge improvement for 30" S-IPS panels. Im stuck with this S-PVA panel.. which is IMHO better than the newer S-IPS panels that are having some problems. I do miss S-IPS panels.. because I am starting to notice slight gamma shifts when I am playing games, and sometimes it does bug me.

    Hope this helps..
     
  24. Snowdog

    Snowdog Pasty Nerd with Poor Cardio

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    I will echo a bit of Videomasters post (the best here). Avoid the Dell 3007-HC. I owned one and had the exact same issue, the red is so supersaturated that it hurt my eyes. No amount of adjustment could ever make the color look right.

    I returned it and went with an NEC 24".

    The Apple has one significant advantage right there in that it is just about the only normal sRGB 30" panel with correct colors. If you can get it for $1000, go for it.

    Someone mentioned the Dell 3008 looking better. Well the 3008 was so riddled with defects Dell stopped shipping them.

    Get the Apple.
     
  25. Benny

    Benny Gawd

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    The Apple is the only one with standard gamut and IPS (the 305T (without plus) is also standard gamut)
    Unless you edit images for print, in which case wide gamut is an advantage, the Apple will be the one best suited for your needs.
     
  26. ilarehson

    ilarehson [H]Lite

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    Videomasterz, thanks a lot for your input. Your post echos more or less what I have also read in other threads.

    Currently, I own a 26" LG W2600H (non IPS); however, I am gonna put it in the FS section, once I can actually post there..err

    Appreciate all the help!
     
  27. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ardOCP Motherboard Editor

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    Interesting. I am using the old 3007WFP which used the same panel as the Apple Cinema Display 30". I haven't had any problems with the reds or anything like you mentioned with the 3007WFP-HC.
     
  28. Chase023

    Chase023 n00b

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    After reading this and that, I think for my search for a 30" monitor, I am going to get me a Dell 3007WFP-HC.

    Now what prices have you guys paid for this monitor before taxes and delivery?

    I might just end up waiting for something like a 25% off the price or some kind of sale from Dell which I have seen before a while back on this monitor.
     
  29. TheArTcher

    TheArTcher Limp Gawd

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    Just after the 3008 came out, the 3007 dropped to $1050 US. That's the lowest price I've seen ever.
     
  30. videomasterz

    videomasterz Gawd

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    yes the non wide gamut panels such as the LG S-IPS found in the Apple cinema 30" and the older DELL 3007WFP NON HC version... will not have any problems with the reds..

    the DELL 3007WFP-HC has super high reds.. and greens.. which just blow my mind... very bright and vivid...
     
  31. Benny

    Benny Gawd

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    The panel of the 3007-HC and HP 3065 also feature a standard color temperature that's a tad on the warm side (I think around 5900K, 6500K is standard) so everything will look more reddish than people are used to if the screen is not calibrated.
     
  32. ilarehson

    ilarehson [H]Lite

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    What kind of calibration do you use/are you on a 3007-HC?
     
  33. Benny

    Benny Gawd

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    3007-hc with i1 display2 (and this http://www.hex2bit.com/index.asp freeware to keep the profile from being discarded by drivers games etc), it changes the videocard LUT so the temperature will be ok in windows, the oversaturation in non color aware apps however can not be corrected with any calibration software I know of.
     
  34. uptown

    uptown n00b

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    So what's my best bet for a 30" w/ accurate colors for web design and photography? I realize that's a gross oversimplification of the quest that everyone shopping for a 30" is on ... just seems like there is no good LCDs in that size based on what everyone says. (I'd consider stepping down slightly smaller than 30" if I could get something with accurate color representation)
     
  35. Benny

    Benny Gawd

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    well.. "good" LCD is a matter of definition, there are no 30'' monitors as bad as almost all of the 22'' ones...
    If calibrated all of them will be accurate enough for most users.

    For web and therefore sRGB a standard gamut display (30'' apple)
    For photography (unless Black an white, or only for use on the web) a display that will show aRGB photos and CMYK print colors. (the new LG, NEC etc.) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/f/fd/CIE_RGB-CMYK-Beleucht.png
    +in both cases a calibration device for accaracy, and if you use a wider color display for web, a color aware browser. (safari, firefox3) to display colors in sRGB gamut.

    sRGB accaracy will never be as good on current wider gamut monitors as it is with an sRGB backlight, because you will not have all 256 color steps left when only using a part of all possible colors adressed with 8bit.
    But it might be sufficient depending on the tolerances you are willing to accept with web content. (it's unlikely the uncalibrated 6bit sRGB TN display of an average customer will be more accurate than the ~7.5bits(? ^^; ) a calibrated aRGB IPS screen will use to preview the content...)

    If you need both wide gamut and perfectly accurate sRGB you'll have to get a 2nd display for web preview. (e.g. 20'' IPS (there's a thread somewhere))
    Or ideally the 30'' NEC next to the 24'' version... or if you're fine with a single 24'' screen, the dreamcolor HP (10bit channels, so it's accurate in all gamuts)
     
  36. ilarehson

    ilarehson [H]Lite

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    Benny,

    Would you rather take an ACD 30" for $1K or a 3007WFP-HC for $850?

    How much worse/better with calibration does the 3007WFP-HC get vs the ACD...and if it is better, how come ebay persists to have the ACD sold at a premium vs the 3007?
     
  37. Benny

    Benny Gawd

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    Depends on your preferences, if you work with wider gamut material and don't mind oversaturated games and movies, I'd personally go with the dell and add a i1display LT to the setup (still staying under the Apple price),
    working with it however, will be more complicated, you'll always have to check in what gamut you're working in to know how the images will be displayed on other displays.
    (and if your work involves people from the turtleneck department you'll know that they'll check it on sRGB gamut cinema displays.. even if it goes into print later on..¬_¬; )

    If you want a monitor for watching movies and editing images for websites, the ACD will fit your bill more nicely.

    Behardware got some tests:

    http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=71&ma2=88&mo2=237&p2=2302&ph=6
    http://www.digitalversus.com/article-370.html

    you'll see that the uncalibrated Dell color is a "little" off... the uncalibrated Apple isn't in the database but would probably be closer to the uncalibrated 305T in this case.
    Calibrated, there's no clear winner.

    Everyone knows aluminum is much much more expensive than plastic, especially when it's designed by famous people..¬_¬; (people like fruit, fruit is gooood.. ) and it looks more natural uncalibrated. (most users won't bother calibrating the Dell)
    Technically the monitor is identical with the discontinued non-HC Dell.
     
  38. ilarehson

    ilarehson [H]Lite

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    Thanks again Benny for the advice.

    I am almost about to pull the trigger on the ACD, however, the HDCP is getting to me a little bit. On the computer, I hear if you use ANyDVD, this is not a problem, am I wrong?

    If that is the case, that should clearly not effect my decision, right?
     
  39. jerb

    jerb Limp Gawd

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    dont let the HDCP influence your decision... it wont be implemented for years and bet the farm that months before it actually comes to market people will circumvent it
     
  40. videomasterz

    videomasterz Gawd

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    I sold my apple cinema 30" for $1000 the person that bought it.. is very happy.. till this day :) he games WoW, crysis, COD4, and does web surfing on it and couldnt be happier.

    What he did do is increase the digital vibrance on it up to 10% and made it look wide gamut like the 3007WFP-HC and HP LP3065.. so the reds greens and blues are more intense.. looks pretty sweet when he did that :)