The great OS debate

[eeyrjmr]

Well this is the OS forum of [H] so where better place to discuss all OS's. An Os's job is to basically extend the attempt at a universal state machine to something closer to a true Turing machine and each CPU-OS matchup have their way of doing it

I mean all OS's had/have their place and all OS's have their purpose, be it an Operating system for a mobile, or an operating system on a super-computer

The fact that there is soo many is enough to say no operating system is perfect (or we would all just be using that OS).

I mean Take AmigaOS. FANTASTIC!!!, workbench was just soo good, kernel on ROM so silly-fast booting, it also had a fantastic multitask manager, Super for games YET it is all but dead...

so sad

 

[markt435]

i miss dos....seriously.

 

[bbz_Ghost]

To quote Linus Torvalds from the movie "Revolution OS," something I highly recommend any true Geek simply must see:

"To kind of explain what Linux is, you have to explain what an operating system is. And the thing about an operating system is that you're never ever supposed to see it because nobody really uses an operating system. People use programs on their computer, and the only mission in life of an operating system is to help those programs run.

So an operating system never does anything on its own. It's only waiting for the programs to ask for certain resources, or ask for a certain file that's on the disk, or ask for the programs to connect them to the outside world. And then the operating system steps in and tries to make it easy for people to write programs."

Now, I'm a hardware Geek, been doing what I do for over 30 years now. I ain't no programmer, and I certainly don't know too many single individuals that create an OS outta thin air basically which is precisely what Linus did with the earliest code with Linux. He didn't get help till well into the process, so...

If that's what he thinks an OS is and should be, who am I to argue?

I really don't give a shit what OS most people use or care about. What I give a shit about is misinformation about any given OS that's pushed out like it's the gospel, that's it.

I don't prefer to use Linux because of the difficulties involved with using it, dealing with the incompatibilities (and don't you DARE try to say it's 100% compatible with the 95% of the planet running Windows - if you do you're more of an idiot that you believe and this comment is directed at anyone reading this, not one person or group specifically), but it is a fine kernel for what it is.

I use Windows because I know it like the proverbial back of my hand. I don't need any other reason to use it, and I don't need to prove why either.

 

[eeyrjmr]

Thats why I use my normal explanation of an OS/libset via the statemachine talk

I myself am a hardware bod (in power mainly) but deal alot with VHDL and statemachines. Deal with them enough and you realise when an app runs all it is doing is extending the capability of the universal state machine via new commands

CPU with mov, pop... gets extended with malloc with the kernel & libc which gets further extended with re.regex via higher level languages to allow a program to run (state machine on state machine on....)

 

[DOpamine]

To quote Linus Torvalds from the movie "Revolution OS," something I highly recommend any true Geek simply must see:

"To kind of explain what Linux is, you have to explain what an operating system is. And the thing about an operating system is that you're never ever supposed to see it because nobody really uses an operating system. People use programs on their computer, and the only mission in life of an operating system is to help those programs run.

So an operating system never does anything on its own. It's only waiting for the programs to ask for certain resources, or ask for a certain file that's on the disk, or ask for the programs to connect them to the outside world. And then the operating system steps in and tries to make it easy for people to write programs."

Now, I'm a hardware Geek, been doing what I do for over 30 years now. I ain't no programmer, and I certainly don't know too many single individuals that create an OS outta thin air basically which is precisely what Linus did with the earliest code with Linux. He didn't get help till well into the process, so...

If that's what he thinks an OS is and should be, who am I to argue?

I really don't give a shit what OS most people use or care about. What I give a shit about is misinformation about any given OS that's pushed out like it's the gospel, that's it.

I don't prefer to use Linux because of the difficulties involved with using it, dealing with the incompatibilities (and don't you DARE try to say it's 100% compatible with the 95% of the planet running Windows - if you do you're more of an idiot that you believe and this comment is directed at anyone reading this, not one person or group specifically), but it is a fine kernel for what it is.

I use Windows because I know it like the proverbial back of my hand. I don't need any other reason to use it, and I don't need to prove why either.

You see Linux is a kernel , a (very important) component of an operating system however it is useless on its own. You will also see in the movie revolution OS a man by the name of richard stallman who is the founder of the Free Software Foundation and the author of the GPL who explains how the GNU system was conceived and developed. The linux kernel simply filled in the last missing piece in the GNU system which was supposed to be the Hurd (gnumach) kernel , this kernel was an advanced design known as a micro kernel which could offer great benefits to users and developers alike however it proved very difficult to debug. Hurd is still under active development and is available as part of a debian distribution branch called Debian GNU/Hurd. In short Linux shouldn't be referred to as an OS but only as a kernel , an OS with linux as its kernel should be referred to as GNU/Linux unless the GNU components are replaced sometime in the future
Linus Torvalds may well have acted alone when the linux kernel was in its infancy but there is no way anyone can say that this one single man created the "linux os" , many many people from across the world develop GNU/Linux and it has always been this way .
I think it is a users duty to seek freedom , by that i mean use software that he or she can learn all about without being encumbered by licences or certain information being simply not available to the users. There is often reference to the "average joe" and why this person shouldn't be interested in such things - i find this a pretty weak argument , after all how will "average joe" become "above average joe" or even "1337 joe" if he or she cannot look into the way the software works and alter or re-write it if thats what joe wants.
Some GNU/Linux distributions are easier than others to a certain extent , they vary slightly but for the most part they use the exact same software and work in the same way. These distributions are not difficult at all , they just dont work like a certain other proprietary operating system which is a very good thing , if people sat down and spent half the time learning their GNU/Linux distribution of choice as they did with the certain other proprietary operating system most of them would agree that the GNU/Linux distribution is easier ( i have customers that can vouch for this ).
I wouldn't say that any GNU/Linux distribution is 100% compatible with all hardware or all software but the same can be said for any operating system , a prime example is my negative scanner , it simply wont work in a certain proprietary operating system what so ever but in my gentoo GNU/Linux it was up and running within 10 mins. As with older dos software that wont run in the certain proprietary operating system but will run via emulation in GNU/Linux ( i realize that the software that runs dos software via emulation is available for certain other proprietary operating systems but this is only possible because the source code is available to public and can be ported to any system ( see Freedom above ) ).

 

[TechieSooner]

Yes there are exceptions to every rule.
Some hardware works in Linux.

Let's not take some examples and try to say hardware support in Linux is fully developed- it isn't.
Windows is hands-down the best OS for full support (And I'd say the main reason for it is its wide usage... As it would be with whatever OS is #1 in usage!).

Linux has its places too, however, and I use it to fill those places.

use software that he or she can learn all about without being encumbered by licences or certain information being simply not available to the users.

To you and a select techie crowd- this may be true.
To 98% of the world that uses an OS (or any other program)- they simply don't give a damn about "learning" anything more than what they are required to do, nor do they care about having an open source system or program... They simply don't care!

The masses dictate products and the market. That's how the world works. If it doesn't appeal to the masses- it simply just doesn't appeal... So let's not say the "users" of operating systems (or programs) would like this to be open to them... Because the "users" simply don't care.

 

[bbz_Ghost]

*snip*

Boy, have you got a lot to learn.

 

[DOpamine]

Yes there are exceptions to every rule.
Some hardware works in Linux.

The only thing i own that isnt supported is the £10 digital camera i was given as a freebie.

Let's not take some examples and try to say hardware support in Linux is fully developed- it isn't.
Windows is hands-down the best OS for full support (And I'd say the main reason for it is its wide usage... As it would be with whatever OS is #1 in usage!).

Linux has its places too, however, and I use it to fill those places.

GNU/Linux is quite mature now , its certainly alot more stable than certain other proprietary operating systems. As for hardware , it isn't really the fault of the OS if hardware manufacturers dont give GNU/Linux a second thought , alot of the drivers in the linux kernel are reverse engineered and very well done too. The reason that GNU/Linux distributions arent the norm i think is down to advertising ( or the lack of ) and certain proprietary operating system vendors pushing their software on new computers and generally crushing the competition . Alot of people don't know what they want out of an operating system and just end up with certain proprietary operating systems because its perceived as the norm or the only operating system. Also let us not forget that its hardware manufacturers that provide drivers for these certain other proprietary operating systems and not the operating systems developers themselves.

To you and a select techie crowd- this may be true.
To 98% of the world that uses an OS (or any other program)- they simply don't give a damn about "learning" anything more than what they are required to do, nor do they care about having an open source system or program... They simply don't care!

The masses dictate products and the market. That's how the world works. If it doesn't appeal to the masses- it simply just doesn't appeal... So let's not say the "users" of operating systems (or programs) would like this to be open to them... Because the "users" simply don't care.

Freedom applies to everyone even battery hens , if you don't like the way something works or something doesn't do what you need it to you should have the opportunity to change it to the way you want , even if you don't have the ability. If you don't have the ability then you can pay someone to make the changes for you ( you'd be surprised at how quickly people become technical when the cost is either $0 or $400 ). As for mass appeal - if it is the users that create the operating system and associated software how can it not have mass appeal ? , I think the mass appeal of certain other operating systems isn't really mass appeal more mass marketing and the backhanders to computer retail outlets , no technical merit just new and shiny things to impress the layman. Users should also be Free to look in detail how exactly a program works , especially users that deal with sensitive information so they can see if it is vulnerable or if the developers have left a back door or if it acts maliciously , only if you have access to the source code can you verify what and how a program does exactly.

 

[DeaconFrost]

Is there really a point to creating a thread that knowingly will take a wrong turn sooner, rather than later.....all in the name of debating apples, oranges, and bananas? Would this be a blatant violation of the rules of the forum and the recent warnings of the mods?

Which is better is strictly an opinion. Each OS has it's strengths and it's weaknesses. Until the world becames one nation under a dictatorship, we are freely allowed to choose which one or ones we would like to use. Each of us should be using what fits our needs the best. End of story. These attempts and posts that only try to force one's opinion on the masses are getting out of hand. All this over zealousness (and insane need to argue and be right) is doing is pushing people away from this subforum and from exploring their OS options.

In short, use whatever works best for you, and stop trying to force your opinions on everyone else. No one else is going to tell me what is best for me, so deal with it and let people be. Answer the questions of people honestly with factual, correct information, and let people make up their own minds.

 

[DOpamine]

Is there really a point to creating a thread that knowingly will take a wrong turn sooner, rather than later.....all in the name of debating apples, oranges, and bananas? Would this be a blatant violation of the rules of the forum and the recent warnings of the mods?

I will keep things civil

Which is better is strictly an opinion. Each OS has it's strengths and it's weaknesses. Until the world becames one nation under a dictatorship, we are freely allowed to choose which one or ones we would like to use. Each of us should be using what fits our needs the best. End of story. These attempts and posts that only try to force one's opinion on the masses are getting out of hand. All this over zealousness (and insane need to argue and be right) is doing is pushing people away from this subforum and from exploring their OS options.

I am pointing out that freedom in software is priceless , its the difference between computing being a business and computing being a science. I totally agree that a world dictatorship in software or real every day life would be really bad whether it be a corporate dictatorship or governmental. The freedom to choose is wonderful and we should not lose the opportunity to do so. I don't think anyone is being over zealous , just pointing out good and bad in operating systems. I also hope your wrong about pushing people away , debate about operating systems should provide an insight for a more informed choice.

In short, use whatever works best for you, and stop trying to force your opinions on everyone else. No one else is going to tell me what is best for me, so deal with it and let people be. Answer the questions of people honestly with factual, correct information, and let people make up their own minds.

I dont think anyone is trying to force their opinions on anyone , if you have some good or great aspects of what you use then share them for the benefit of all so we can make a more informed choice.

 

[DeaconFrost]

I dont think anyone is trying to force their opinions on anyone

If you honestly believe this, you've been missing a lot of threads.

if you have some good or great aspects of what you use then share them for the benefit of all so we can make a more informed choice.

That's the problem. Many people do provide insight and examples, but if it isn't about Linux, they are bombarded with trolls forcing Linux into every thread, even ones where the OP is simply asking for help on their Windows system. If people were freely allowed to share their insight without being flamed or threadjacked by a "Use Linux" comment, we wouldn't be scaring so many people away.

I'm not bashing Linux, and I do run an Ubuntu machine that I am learning on. But, I'm smart enough to know that my Windows box has it's place and so does my Linux box. I'm also smart enough to know Linux isn't the answer to every thread, nor would I go into the Linux subforum, find every thread with a problem, and tell them Windows is the answer. Yet that's exactly what goes on here, and it needs to stop.

If someone has a Windows question, help them with an answer. If someone has a Linux question, help them with an answer. Don't try to convince someone to switch to another OS simply because it's the one you prefer.

* I'm not directing this at anyone in particular. This is an overall general statement, and goes for both "camps".

 

[DOpamine]

If you honestly believe this, you've been missing a lot of threads.

That's the problem. Many people do provide insight and examples, but if it isn't about Linux, they are bombarded with trolls forcing Linux into every thread, even ones where the OP is simply asking for help on their Windows system. If people were freely allowed to share their insight without being flamed or threadjacked by a "Use Linux" comment, we wouldn't be scaring so many people away.

I'm not bashing Linux, and I do run an Ubuntu machine that I am learning on. But, I'm smart enough to know that my Windows box has it's place and so does my Linux box. I'm also smart enough to know Linux isn't the answer to every thread, nor would I go into the Linux subforum, find every thread with a problem, and tell them Windows is the answer. Yet that's exactly what goes on here, and it needs to stop.

If someone has a Windows question, help them with an answer. If someone has a Linux question, help them with an answer. Don't try to convince someone to switch to another OS simply because it's the one you prefer.

* I'm not directing this at anyone in particular. This is an overall general statement, and goes for both "camps".

Its GNU/Linux and what is wrong with this thread , its not a help thread its an OS discussion thread is it not ? Would you care to give your thoughts on the multitude of operating systems available ? your experiences with X ? bad points ? good points ?

 

[Grimmda]

Subscribe to "Genneral Mayhem" and post this thread in the "Soapbox" and this thread is acceptable. I just posted one myself about OS's... in the Soapbox.

 

[odoe]

Subscribe to "Genneral Mayhem" and post this thread in the "Soapbox" and this thread is acceptable. I just posted one myself about OS's... in the Soapbox.

True.
This is more fitting in Soapbox.