The EU doing the stuff our regulators are too lazy to do

readeh

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
359
HUE, that's cute you believe that isn't the case.

I used to think like you until I started working and contracting for tech companies and started seeing the secret government closets full of network gear only accessible by government minders, which use it to have unlimited access to all internal company networks and servers. And no, these companies didn't willingly put these installations in, they were forced by the secret FISA courts and the NSA to have them, and have no say in what they do. Some of these installs are VERY involved in censorship of things that the government doesn't want people talking about, as well as illegal surveillance.

While corporate entities like Google and Bookface do engage in censorship, not all of it is their own doing.



Trusting government more than corporations is blind trust.
You are talking about American intelligence doing that, not EU. A few years ago CIA/NSA got caught spying on European politicians, like Andrea Merkel. https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...european-officials-through-danish-2021-05-30/
The case is still ongoing in Denmark and there is talk about treason.

Trusting the US government and US corporations is a blind trust.
 

readeh

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
359
Well done. Saved me the trouble of doing it myself.

Liberty is funny because it's never 100%. Who do we give liberty, the companies to operate as they please and do as they want, which will work against the customers freedom, or give liberty to the customer which can and will take profits away from corporations because we limit what they can do? There's no such thing as 100% liberty because someone has to lose for someone to gain liberty. I guess I can hack all the machines in the world because Liberty. I guess corporations can limit what I can do with my device because they have liberty.

A lot of what is proposed makes a lot of sense, but some of it looks like it can be abused. Like the ability to remove illegal content online which just sounds very broad and can be abused. The rest sounds really good.
Companies aren't people and they are purely there for a few people to get rich, so rich that they rival other countries national net worth. Would you rather see a company making 10% less in profit, that already makes billions in profit or half a million Americans getting put on the streets?
You make no sense. The government is supposed to be governed by it's people, to serve the people and the government should never ever pick the side of major corporation's or be influenced by them. Lobbying is the worst thing to ever happen in politics. Picking a side here should not even be questioned.
 

HockeyJon

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
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Who do we give liberty, the companies to operate as they please and do as they want, which will work against the customers freedom, or give liberty to the customer which can and will take profits away from corporations because we limit what they can do?

Obviously the corporations, because members of Congress want those sweet, sweet campaign donations.
 

GiGaBiTe

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 26, 2013
Messages
2,405
You are talking about American intelligence doing that, not EU. A few years ago CIA/NSA got caught spying on European politicians, like Andrea Merkel. https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...european-officials-through-danish-2021-05-30/
The case is still ongoing in Denmark and there is talk about treason.

Trusting the US government and US corporations is a blind trust.

It's not just the US government, it's every government. State sponsored censorship and monitoring is a world wide problem.
 

DukenukemX

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
6,549
Companies aren't people and they are purely there for a few people to get rich, so rich that they rival other countries national net worth. Would you rather see a company making 10% less in profit, that already makes billions in profit or half a million Americans getting put on the streets?
You make no sense. The government is supposed to be governed by it's people, to serve the people and the government should never ever pick the side of major corporation's or be influenced by them. Lobbying is the worst thing to ever happen in politics. Picking a side here should not even be questioned.
I think you misunderstand in that I'm in favor of the regulations, with maybe except one. I'm also not in favor of companies profits over freedom of the people.
 

LukeTbk

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Joined
Sep 10, 2020
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3,352
Companies aren't people and they are purely there for a few people to get rich, so rich that they rival other countries national net worth. Would you rather see a company making 10% less in profit, that already makes billions in profit or half a million Americans getting put on the streets?
You make no sense. The government is supposed to be governed by it's people, to serve the people and the government should never ever pick the side of major corporation's or be influenced by them. Lobbying is the worst thing to ever happen in politics. Picking a side here should not even be questioned.
That sound to me like something a teenager could say

Hydro Québec is a company, does it exist purely for a few people to get rich or people wanting electricity is also a factor ? A group of people doing business will create a company for many structural/legal reasons. Do you think in a world with strong tax, employment and rules responsability that we could have complex non artisanal (and non artisanal priced) item lie computers, cars, gaz, food without an legal enragement that resemble companies existing ? Many company are made by someone or a very small group of people just to make their own jobs without any plan to get rich with it, put to protect themselves and handle taxation requirement, think of a single plumber working for himself.

I am not sure what democratic politics (or any politic) could exist without Lobbying (to conduct activities aimed at influencing public officials and especially members of a legislative body on legislation), was there was ever a point in politic that existed without anyone ever trying to influence deciders (with petition, manifestation, gaining leaders ears, etc...)
 
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readeh

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
359
That sound to me like something a teenager could say

Hydro Québec is a company, does it exist purely for a few people to get rich or people wanting electricity is also a factor ? A group of people doing business will create a company for many structural/legal reasons. Do you think in a world with strong tax, employment and rules responsability that we could have complex non artisanal (and non artisanal priced) item lie computers, cars, gaz, food without an legal enragement that resemble companies existing ? Many company are made by someone or a very small group of people just to make their own jobs without any plan to get rich with it, put to protect themselves and handle taxation requirement, think of a single plumber working for himself.

I am not sure what democratic politics (or any politic) could exist without Lobbying (to conduct activities aimed at influencing public officials and especially members of a legislative body on legislation), was there was ever a point in politic that existed without anyone ever trying to influence deciders (with petition, manifestation, gaining leaders ears, etc...)
I'm not talking about the small business owner here, we are not in the 1950ies anymore. This is late stage capitalism with income inequality that is only getting worse and it all boils down to greedy people changing our world so they can become more powerful and rich.
The fact that diabetes medicin is eight times more expensive in the US compared to Europe and other nation's should really tells you something is wrong.
We are at a point where smaller/medium sized companies get bought up by bigger companies/corporations to keep the competition to a minimum.

I'm on the opposite side here and I think politics with no lobbying would be a huge win for people. Petition are different than having major corporation's gaining influence in politics and law for their own benefit while it screws millions of people.

Anyway, this is quite off topic at this point.

What the European Union is doing is the right thing to do, depending on how they handle it.
 

readeh

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
359
It's not just the US government, it's every government. State sponsored censorship and monitoring is a world wide problem.
I agree. I think there is a huge difference in the amount of corruption depending on the country tho.
 

ElementDave

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 5, 2013
Messages
368
For some reason I'm having a hard time finding the text of the acts voted on. Below is the DSA language from 2020 that I was able to find:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:52020PC0825&from=en
The CELEX numbers of the DSA and DMA proposals are 52020PC0825 and 52020PC0842, respectively. You can use those to locate the desired proposal from the EUR-Lex search engine. Click on the search result, and there should be a "procedure" tab on the left. From there you might find the documents you're looking for. Once the regulations are formally adopted and published in the Official Journal of the EU, the status of the procedure should change from "ongoing" to "completed", and provide a corresponding link to the adopted act. If you look at (e.g.) the GDPR as a reference for comparison, you'll see what I mean.

Here are the links to the legislative procedure details so you can skip those steps above:
DSA: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/HIS/?uri=COM:2020:825:FIN
DMA: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/HIS/?uri=COM:2020:842:FIN

I should warn you that it's quite possible the advise above is garbage, and there may be more efficient ways to obtain the documents you're after. I'm not well-acquainted with EUR-Lex and seldom interact with it directly.
 
Joined
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Aside from being glib, regulation is a double edged sword.

Mind you, lack of regulation is also a double edged sword.

Doing nothing isn't working, but doing something can blow up in your face. The most important part of any regulation is the willingness to adapt and modify what you're trying. That's not easy to do when you have entrenched camps in your political bodies and lobbying from various groups sitting all over the spectrum. Doing nothing is embracing failure because failure has become tradition, but there's always a chance that doing something could make a tradition of failure become a new tradition of spectacular, hilarious failure.

I'm glad I'm not a legislator.
 

sadsteve

Gawd
Joined
Oct 1, 2010
Messages
613
It’s not clear-cut, but it’s also not some horrible conspiracy, either. And the boring reality is that most pulled content is either demonstrably false or hate/threats. Conservative politicians love pretending it’s a sinister plot, as they can rile up their voter bases without having to support their claims.

As Luke said, you don’t really understand the CDA’s Section 230… or the First Amendment, for that matter. The 1A prevents the government from limiting what you can say, provided it’s not otherwise illegal; it doesn’t mean you have the right to use any private platform as your soapbox.
It sure feels likes a conspiracy some times. A college professor friend of mine was making youtube videos for his classes during the lock downs. He teaches immunology and his class video on mRNA was taken down because he was talking about the positives AND negatives of the technology.
 

MrCaffeineX

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Aug 22, 2011
Messages
1,587
There a dislike button, that’s gross…
It’s like the old Mining town setups.
It's popped up a few times over the last few years in different places. As Twisted Kidney mentioned above, I'm glad I'm not involved in lawmaking. It feels like there is always a pendulum swing between onerous government intervention and laissez faire ignorance, with only the occasional respite at some kind of equilibrium.

The legislation being proposed can be abused, as several people have already pointed out, but I understand the sentiment of wanting to reign in the anti-consumer practices that are at the heart of the matter.
 

Aurelius

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 22, 2003
Messages
4,008
It sure feels likes a conspiracy some times. A college professor friend of mine was making youtube videos for his classes during the lock downs. He teaches immunology and his class video on mRNA was taken down because he was talking about the positives AND negatives of the technology.
Ugh… sounds like the algorithms were overzealous in that case. I suspect many internet giants were tired of accusations of not doing enough to tackle misinformation X or extremism Y that they simply decided it was easier to have overly strict moderation than to risk letting the truly shady content through.
 

Gorankar

[H]F Junkie
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Jul 19, 2000
Messages
11,018
Let us just let the EU do these things and sit from the sidelines and see how it turns out. In 50 years we can decide to copy them or not. Since I suspect the EU will be reduced to either a third world caliphate, or a failed communist state by then, we will be able to learn form their mistakes.
 

DukenukemX

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
6,549
Aside from being glib, regulation is a double edged sword.

Mind you, lack of regulation is also a double edged sword.

Doing nothing isn't working, but doing something can blow up in your face. The most important part of any regulation is the willingness to adapt and modify what you're trying. That's not easy to do when you have entrenched camps in your political bodies and lobbying from various groups sitting all over the spectrum. Doing nothing is embracing failure because failure has become tradition, but there's always a chance that doing something could make a tradition of failure become a new tradition of spectacular, hilarious failure.

I'm glad I'm not a legislator.
Doing something always works so long as that something isn't corrupted by money. Generally if the government is involved and fucked up then that's because our democracy is weak and someones "donations" was strong. You want to make sure that corruption is kept as far away from any laws being made. The EU still has the same problem as America in that they allow sponsorships to occur with their politicians. The EU and US also allow lobbying, which is a big problem when it comes to how policies are made to benefit whom. We could try to avoid letting the government do things, but in reality the moment we look away a law will be passed thanks to sponsorship and lobbying money that basically allows Apple to cattle prod you in the ass the moment you touch an Android phone. So yea doing nothing can really blow up in your face, or get you cattle prodded if you so much as make skin contact with an Android phone. Technology is moving so fast that Apple could probably legally shock you with an iPhone if they added it to their agreement. They could say the feature is there to wake up people or to save someone from a heart attack, and yet nobody read in the agreement they can use it to punish you for using Android. Look at NFT's and how the the law didn't keep up with how these scams were allowed to continue. Luckily they died on their own but I'm sure a lot of people lost money due to them.
 

socK

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Messages
4,332
It sure feels likes a conspiracy some times. A college professor friend of mine was making youtube videos for his classes during the lock downs. He teaches immunology and his class video on mRNA was taken down because he was talking about the positives AND negatives of the technology.

I streamed myself programming a few months back and woke up the video blocked and this email:

"Our team has reviewed your content, and, unfortunately, we think it violates our spam, deceptive practices and scams policy."

Guaranteed that I just tripped some bullshit automated garbage for reasons beyond earthly logic despite just being a stream of Visual Studio and occasionally me looking at documentation. That is the full extent of the information they gave me. I have absolutely zero idea what the violation even is or where it was in the video. It wasn't muted or blocked from monetization, it was just straight up disabled with no option besides to appeal.

So I appealed it - and was denied. I severely doubt an actual person even looked at the appeal.

This is almost certainly just YouTube being a dog shit platform. Unless you're huge (and sometimes even if) you have basically zero recourse.
 
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