The Escapist Responds To Cloud Imperium Legal Threats

[Elios]

i just cant believe that people ARNT asking for an audit at this point...

if i was a "whale" that spend 1000's id damn well want to know where that money went...

CIG needs also make it clear are the ships "gifts" for donating or are they selling them... because that opens up all kinds of other fun things with the FTC as well

 

[Elios]

How else should they acquire funds ? At least you get something in game versus just funding it for the sake of contributing to the project.

the method isnt the issue the lack of accountability and transparency IS THE ISSUE

they are doing things that would get a publicly traded business shut down or VC backed one the VC would of pulled funding MONTHS AGO

but crowd funding is still the wild west the FTC is SLOWLY making rules and id bet this will be major case study in the future

again if they have nothing to hide lets have at lest some quarterly reports

i think its only a matter of time be for the FTC steps in and it wont end well

 

[drklu]

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/tos

 

[Frankie]

What do you consider smoke? DS claims ? Some shit company posting an article based on those poorly written glass door reviews and some dumbass ex employee like that artist Elijah ?

I believe I listed some in the post you quoted. Did you miss them? Is Jennison a dumbass Ex employee? What's your evidence that he's a dumbass? What's your evidence that TE is lying when they say their article wasn't sourced from glass door reviews? Has TE always been shit, or has your attitude towards them recently shifted?

Or is it just happenstance that as soon as these claims came about that your attitude shifted ? I thought you said you have felt this way for some time in a previous post. So were voicing your opinion on that back then?

Yes, your point?

I am really curious, not trying to come off as a prick.

IMO you failed.

 

[Pringle]

And I think the people that are heavily invested in the game are trying to pretend that where there's smoke, there isn't fire. Sticking their heads in the sand because of their wants. . We'll see who's right, eventually.

What do you consider smoke? DS claims ? Some shit company posting an article based on those poorly written glass door reviews and some dumbass ex employee like that artist Elijah ? Or is it just happenstance that as soon as these claims came about that your attitude shifted ? I thought you said you have felt this way for some time in a previous post. So were voicing your opinion on that back then? I am really curious, not trying to come off as a prick.

That article's (and the ones following) writer received their information from a lot more than glass door reviews. You're pretty ignorant to say as much.

 

[rotarymotor]

The best part of all of this, to me and in my opinion, is watching everyone duke it out about something when there isn't even concrete proof of ANYTHING anyone or any organization has said.

I've been quietly following Star Citizen from the background, and no I have not vested any type of capital into it.

The first year or so it really had captured my attention, but after year 2 passed and nothing else came from it I knew better than to give in to it. Especially since was practically just a flashy demo at that point.

All I can add is this:

Wait it out.

Wait and see until the proof comes (or doesn't) and if the allegations are proven true or false. That's honestly just about the only thing we can do without wringing each other's virtual necks.

 

[drklu]

I just wouldn't make such harsh claims until all of the ex employees are known and verified. And yeah a concept artist totally knows the ins and outs of the company. He is able to determine the entire company is behind because he only made a handful of characters in his time there. Could it be that what he was producing wasn't in line with what CIG was wanting ?

 

[Frankie]

I just wouldn't make such harsh claims until all of the ex employees are known and verified. And yeah a concept artist totally knows the ins and outs of the company. He is able to determine the entire company is behind because he only made a handful of characters in his time there.

There's also, you know, the fact that the FPS module that was supposed to come out months ago is still nowhere to be found. And the fact that they've missed every single release date they've ever put out. But yeah, let's pretend that what you're saying makes sense.

Could it be that what he was producing wasn't in line with what CIG was wanting ?

So you're saying he was doing work that CIG didn't like, so they kept him around for 17 months until he eventually quit. Sounds like a well managed company that isn't wasting money at all! Do you think about this stuff at all before you hit the submit button? Not trying to be a prick, just genuinely curious.

 

[drklu]

Well if he only made 5 characters maybe the last two just weren't acceptable....

 

[Frankie]

Well if he only made 5 characters maybe the last two just weren't acceptable....

What?

 

[drklu]

What?

I'm just messing with you. For a game you obviously hate you seem to put quite a bit of effort into bashing it. Are you Derek Smart !?

 

[Pringle]

I'm just messing with you. For a game you obviously hate you seem to put quite a bit of effort into bashing it. Are you Derek Smart !?

It's actually very easy to bash, at this point. I'm sure it will be even easier after this weekend.

 

[DPI]

I just wouldn't make such harsh claims until all of the ex employees are known and verified. And yeah a concept artist totally knows the ins and outs of the company. He is able to determine the entire company is behind because he only made a handful of characters in his time there. Could it be that what he was producing wasn't in line with what CIG was wanting ?

Funny how the goalposts keep moving. First it was "well the glassdoor reviews must have been faked". Then it was "well okay not all the glassdoor reviews were faked but the article used the words ID cards instead of access cards when describing the cards employees are issued, therefore the sources are fake." Then it became "well okay maybe the sources aren't all fake, or mostly fake, or even partially fake real ex employees. But really, how much does a graphic artist know?" .. The wind is blowing one way and you're pissing into it.

By the way, if you've ever worked in an office, you know word travels fast. Even the guy in the mailroom eventually finds out about the CEO banging his secretary at the holiday party.

 

[drklu]

I just don't think one artist who worked at the studio for a little over a year can say if the whole company is doomed. There are what, 5 studios ? Why haven't the other 200 some employees came out with similar reports? I really don't buy into it. Does that mean I don't think there is some truth to what is being reported? No it doesn't. Does it mean I feel it justified ranting and raving on some forum about how this game is shit and going to fail based on the info I have seen? No, I would rather get all the details before I formed such a strong opinion.

 

[Wildace]

if it was disclosed it would be fine the issue was not only NOT doing that but actively trying to keep it from being known....

When were they trying to hide it?

It is not uncommon for an actress to keep her maiden name, and that is a growing trend for non famous people as well.

I have known they were married for well over a year or more.

At no point was it a secret it was just not something actively talked about because it never really mattered from a business perspective because they want a professional work place setting.

And imo it is really none of anyone's business what their personal relationship is, it is called a personal relationship for a reason, as long as they work and act professionally together in public that is all that really matters.

And there is really no telling what their salary is, because for one they were already rich by normal standards.

And Both Chris Roberts and Sandy were dumping money in the project well before any backer was when they had to create the demo and pitch for the original kickstarter, so no only were they working for free at that time, they were actively losing money creating the project.

I bet they are both willing to work totally free on the project if the studio became that financially in trouble that they had too. They already did it in the past to start the project and they would likely do it again to finish it.

 

[Wildace]

Are we talking about Elijah? because i think he was fired.

or a different artist, there are so many "random" sources with an axe to grind it is hard to keep the straight

Elijah can't really be taken seriously especially under the circumstances/behavior he was let go for.

 

[Wildace]

damnit i broke the quote

 

[Frankie]

I'm just messing with you. For a game you obviously hate you seem to put quite a bit of effort into bashing it. Are you Derek Smart !?

No. Are you Sandi Roberts?

I just don't think one artist who worked at the studio for a little over a year can say if the whole company is doomed.

He didn't say it was doomed. He described his experiences there and that they were fucked up, showed poor management, and wasteful spending.

There are what, 5 studios ? Why haven't the other 200 some employees came out with similar reports?

Are you joking? You expect all 200 employees to come out with similar reports? That's what it'd take to convince you?

I really don't buy into it. Does that mean I don't think there is some truth to what is being reported? No it doesn't. Does it mean I feel it justified ranting and raving on some forum about how this game is shit and going to fail based on the info I have seen? No, I would rather get all the details before I formed such a strong opinion.

You know when you'll get all the details? Never. So I guess no one should ever say anything negative about SC or any other game in development.

Are we talking about Elijah? because i think he was fired.

or a different artist, there are so many "random" sources with an axe to grind it is hard to keep the straight

Elijah can't really be taken seriously especially under the circumstances/behavior he was let go for.

Jennison.

 

[KazeoHin]

 

[Frankie]

^^^^^ lol.

 

[PersonalJ]

When were they trying to hide it?

It is not uncommon for an actress to keep her maiden name, and that is a growing trend for non famous people as well.

I have known they were married for well over a year or more.

At no point was it a secret it was just not something actively talked about because it never really mattered from a business perspective because they want a professional work place setting.

And imo it is really none of anyone's business what their personal relationship is, it is called a personal relationship for a reason, as long as they work and act professionally together in public that is all that really matters.

And there is really no telling what their salary is, because for one they were already rich by normal standards.

And Both Chris Roberts and Sandy were dumping money in the project well before any backer was when they had to create the demo and pitch for the original kickstarter, so no only were they working for free at that time, they were actively losing money creating the project.

I bet they are both willing to work totally free on the project if the studio became that financially in trouble that they had too. They already did it in the past to start the project and they would likely do it again to finish it.

She even claimed to have interviewed for the job, I remember one where she jokingly said she was afraid she'd have issues getting the job because she didn't play Freelancer. It was entirely fabricated and meant to present a story that was false to the backers.

 

[drklu]

No. Are you Sandi Roberts?

lmao, yes i am Sandi

He didn't say it was doomed. He described his experiences there and that they were fucked up, showed poor management, and wasteful spending.

One guys opinion out of several hundred employees. There are reports of good as well I never see you discussing.

Are you joking? You expect all 200 employees to come out with similar reports? That's what it'd take to convince you?

At least a percentage of them you think would come out, its not like they make a ton of money doing this so I don't see why they would stay.

You know when you'll get all the details? Never. So I guess no one should ever say anything negative about SC or any other game in development.

We will get more details as this progresses, I agree we will probably never know the whole story.

 

[Frankie]

Quote from the first post of the SC thread containing all The Escapist stuff:

Not only has the escapist been using AD HOMINEM attacks against SC backers as well as staff, they have now started suspending all accounts that have voiced Dessent on their forums

Pretty sure the biggest example of ad hominem in this whole debacle comes from 1. CR's response to the escapist and 2. the "lawyer" letter sent to DS. I don't go to TE's forums, but I'd guess that the "Dessent" that is being banned is flat out raving trolling nutjobbery from a bunch of rabid SC fans.

CR says Derek's name TWENTY TWO TIMES in his response (did a word count). I know The Faithful will write this off as just being passionate because he's so committed to the project. But I'm pretty sure to the average outside observer it doesn't look so much passionate, but more like crazy ranting batshittery

Then in response to this:

-Employees have indicated that Star Citizen and all of the promised stretch goals, “even with competent management,” could not be made for $90 million.

CR: How do you or they know this? Which employees said this and what makes them qualified to make that judgement? I know it’s what Derek Smart loves to say but he couldn’t make a good game with $200m so I don’t think his opinion matters. Outside of that, no employee beyond me and a few other key people who are leading Star Citizen would have the appropriate information and overview to make any judgement about the cost of the total project. Secondly, the company uses additional sources of funding such as tax incentives, marketing and product partnerships, but we do not discuss these issues in public for obvious reasons. We always keep a healthy cash reserve and operate our business prudently based on the incoming revenue. It should tell you something that we are actually increasing our global headcount not decreasing it despite the inaccurate rumours perpetuated by Derek Smart.

He says this:

Can i just say? MIC EFFIN DROPPED

Uh, no, you can't because:

1. Notice he never actually says he's wrong, does he? Never says the statement is false. Never says he's lying. Just says he's not in a position to know and blurts out one of his many ad hominems. Then repeats the meaningless "healthy cash reserve" and "operate our business prudently based on incoming revenue."
2. CR has made exactly as many 90 million dollar MMO space sims as I (or Derek) have: 0.

You know what "operate our business prudently based on incoming revenue" means? It means he has to lay people off if their ship sales drop. He said as much in a previous interview. You know what that means? It means HE CAN'T do it for 90 million dollars. If he had enough dough to finish the game with 90 million, why would he need to lay people off if current ship sales drop? Use your brains, people. Connect the dots.

 

[Frankie]

One guys opinion out of several hundred employees. There are reports of good as well I never see you discussing.

Because no matter how effed up a company is there will ALWAYS be people that say "eh, everything's fine, I'm going back to work now." You know what happens after someone dies in a mining accident? A day or two later a couple hundred people say "eh, everything's fine, I'm going back to work now." The fact that the majority haven't gone to the news to rake the company that provides for their living over the coals doesn't mean everything is fine.

At least a percentage of them you think would come out, its not like they make a ton of money doing this so I don't see why they would stay.

A percentage of them have come out. It isn't just Jennison. Counting Jennison it's 10 people. That's about 4%. What do you need to give some merit to it? 10? 20? 50? The Escapist says more have come forward since their article. What will the percentage be soon?

 

[DPI]

Because no matter how effed up a company is there will ALWAYS be people that say "eh, everything's fine, I really like my paycheck."

Fixed.

 

[DPI]

A percentage of them have come out. It isn't just Jennison. Counting Jennison it's 10 people. That's about 4%. What do you need to give some merit to it? 10? 20? 50? The Escapist says more have come forward since their article. What will the percentage be soon?

And why do I get the strange feeling that CIG's threat of legal action has galvanized The Escapist now, to the extent they're working on a followup article with every source triple-checked, every "i" dotted and "t" crossed. Going to be a doozy I reckon.

 

[staknhalo]

And why do I get the strange feeling that CIG's threat of legal action has galvanized The Escapist now, to the extent they're working on a followup article with every source triple-checked, every "i" dotted and "t" crossed. Going to be a doozy I reckon.

Then Chris Roberts can come out with another infantile letter that goes:

"HOW DARE YOU CRITICIZE ME, CHRIS ROBERTS, THE STAR CITIZEN"

 

[nilepez]

They're great compared to where I'm working... /sad

I kinda tossed out the most recent entries, because it feels like they're either piling on or trying to prop up the image.

The thing is if you go back to the first ones, some of the comments are very similar to what is said in late September (which I think predates the article).

I'm coming to the conclusion that IT workers should go to a job, stay there for a few years, then look for a better place. Some think you can change from within, but that rarely happens

 

[nilepez]

How else should they acquire funds ? At least you get something in game versus just funding it for the sake of contributing to the project.

I don't know, get investors? That was the original plans, it seems. If the game is coming along as well as they claim, investors would kill to get in on the action.

I get the dropping investors if he could fund it for 90 million, but the current model makes Roberts look like a snake oil salesman.

 

[nilepez]

At least a percentage of them you think would come out, its not like they make a ton of money doing this so I don't see why they would stay.

Most people don't publicly complain about their job. They may complain to a co-worker, but they definitely don't post on public forums. If I worked on the game, i'd be wary of posting on Glassdoor. There's not enough people posting to be sure of your anonymity. Some of the posts on there seemed like they could figure it out...especially the one that included a city.

I know people who've been in a job for close to 20 years who hate the company, but they're not leaving.

Now on top of that, the game industry is relatively small and insular. You get a bad rep and you may not get another job in teh business you love. The other thing is they tend to hire young programmers who don't realize they're overworked and underpaid.

 

[DPI]

I don't know, get investors? That was the original plans, it seems. If the game is coming along as well as they claim, investors would kill to get in on the action.

I get the dropping investors if he could fund it for 90 million, but the current model makes Roberts look like a snake oil salesman.

It's been apparent he'd rather have the 3D modeling guys invent new ships to sell than have any investors joining in and matching funds - after all, 90 million is more than enough good faith for an investment group to know the project is serious. So why no investors? Because they could actually hold his feet to the fire, they've got legal muscle. When he started missing deadlines they could've started turning the screws on him and demanding audits and some basic level of accountability.

So crowdsourcing a hundred million bucks from thousands of individual gamers instead is perfect because they have no power, there's no oversight, no one is looking over his shoulder when he's hiring family members or buying $20,000 espresso machines.

 

[satsunada]

You realize that most of what she wrote was found on Glassdoor.com right.. in posts made shortly before the article was released in a glassdoor location (australia) that has absolutely no connection to CIG at all. This article was click-bait

 

[Pringle]

You realize that most of what she wrote was found on Glassdoor.com right.. in posts made shortly before the article was released in a glassdoor location (australia) that has absolutely no connection to CIG at all. This article was click-bait

You realize the followup article confirmed this was not true, and the sources were verified and not from glassdoor right?

 

[limitedaccess]

It's been apparent he'd rather have the 3D modeling guys invent new ships to sell than have any investors joining in and matching funds - after all, 90 million is more than enough good faith for an investment group to know the project is serious. So why no investors? Because they could actually hold his feet to the fire, they've got legal muscle. When he started missing deadlines they could've started turning the screws on him and demanding audits and some basic level of accountability.

So crowdsourcing a hundred million bucks from thousands of individual gamers instead is perfect because they have no power, there's no oversight, no one is looking over his shoulder when he's hiring family members or buying $20,000 espresso machines.

This is the one thing I don't understand about people who participate in crowd funding, and it is the lack of demand for some sort of accounting of the actual dispersion of the funds acquired. This doesn't apply to Star Citizen but crowd funding in general, especially the larger projects.

For all people know a portion of the funds could have been spent on someones new Porsche or maybe a new deluxe expresso machine in the lunchroom. Or how would they even know that the people on the project are being salaried roughly in line with industry rates and not effectively overcompensated? Or if they need to source from third parties, are they actually going with the most competitive bid or is some third party getting a friendly contract?

 

[LstBrunnenG]

This is the one thing I don't understand about people who participate in crowd funding, and it is the lack of demand for some sort of accounting of the actual dispersion of the funds acquired.

And of course, anyone who wants this now is a troll, because Derek Smart has asked for the same thing.

 

[M76]

So if this goes to court and it turns out The Escapist is completely full of it and that CIG hasn't been mismanaging anything, what then? It seems to me there's this strange desire that a lot of people here want to see this crash and burn. I do not understand it, and I don't think I really want to. Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying the possibility that things could be as bad as some people think... I'm certainly hoping they are not, but why would any self-professed PC enthusiast want to see a PC game fail in such a spectacular manner?

Expecting it to fail, and wanting it fail are two very different things. And apart from Derek, I think every sceptic belongs to the former group.

 

[Meeho]

Considering the lack of marketing, Sandi and her team have been nailing it. So anyone saying she is not qualified is just full of BS.

I don't know. They are bringing in massive amount of money, so she sure isn't doing a bad job. Then again, the game practically advertises itself through the community and word of mouth and people have, as was said, been throwing their money at Chris Roberts' vision, so I'm not sure how much of an influence her work has. On the other hand, every marketing/conference presentation they've done was cringe worthy, and that is her job. Bad organization, bad presentation and bad execution. The hype is so strong so it didn't matter, but that is a fact.

In the end, I don't care about Sandi as far as her work goes. She may or may not be doing a good job, but it hasn't had a negative effect,. I do care about them hiding she is CR's wife, though. That was just shitty and I don't understand the reasoning behind it. I don't know what difference it would make, she or her position wasn't a factor at all for original backers.

 

[Meeho]

When were they trying to hide it?

It is not uncommon for an actress to keep her maiden name, and that is a growing trend for non famous people as well.

I have known they were married for well over a year or more.

At no point was it a secret it was just not something actively talked about because it never really mattered from a business perspective because they want a professional work place setting.

And imo it is really none of anyone's business what their personal relationship is, it is called a personal relationship for a reason, as long as they work and act professionally together in public that is all that really matters.

Oh, come on! Are you serious? It most definitely was a secret and actively hidden. This is a >$90 million project we're talking about here. Of course backers deserved to know whom they were giving their hard eared money to. Hiding something like that while asking for and taking peoples' money is the most unprofessional thing you can do.

She even claimed to have interviewed for the job, I remember one where she jokingly said she was afraid she'd have issues getting the job because she didn't play Freelancer. It was entirely fabricated and meant to present a story that was false to the backers.

I seem to recall a similar thing, but can't be sure. If it's true...wow, just wow.

 

[Merc1138]

This is the one thing I don't understand about people who participate in crowd funding, and it is the lack of demand for some sort of accounting of the actual dispersion of the funds acquired. This doesn't apply to Star Citizen but crowd funding in general, especially the larger projects.

For all people know a portion of the funds could have been spent on someones new Porsche or maybe a new deluxe expresso machine in the lunchroom. Or how would they even know that the people on the project are being salaried roughly in line with industry rates and not effectively overcompensated? Or if they need to source from third parties, are they actually going with the most competitive bid or is some third party getting a friendly contract?

Before I write my response to this, I want to make it very clear that it's not about anyone specific, a specific forum, a specific user, or anything of the sort.

Why? Because they don't understand it. With a lot of these things, you end up with a lot of the general public involved. Ask the average person on the street about accountability, auditing, and so on when it comes to their current employer and odds are you'll get a blank stare. At best they might think about a tax audit. Aside from taking out a loan, most people have no clue about investing and then controlling that investment. Like DPI mentioned, getting an actual investor involved in a project comes with legal agreements and accountability. The current commonly accepted crowdfunding model doesn't treat the funders as investors, it treats them as donators. Most people don't understand the difference, and even if you tried to explain it to them, their eyes would just glaze over.

Relating that to Star Citizen, do you think most of the people who threw money at it would give a damn if you handed them a report detailing how all of the money was spent? Obviously if someone spent money on a hooker and coke party in thailand that would stand out, but when it comes to salaries, getting bids from vendors, and so on it's not as if even a large portion(let alone a majority) would have any clue what median salaries for like positions are, acceptable bids for various places around the globe, or even how much should be spent setting up an office in an area. Actual companies making investments have teams of people paid to go over that stuff, the general public isn't getting paid, won't know what most of the information presented means, or even have an interest in it.

Then you've got to factor in the obvious emotional aspect when it comes to crowdfunding. People get emotionally attached to all sorts of stuff. Videogames, movies, headphone amps, laser operated shaving devices, etc. when throwing money at it. They either treat it as pre-ordering a product(which it isn't), or they have a "hope" about a particular project. Any mature adult has seen this happen before from other people around them, and has likely done it themselves at some point. Those that have done this in the past know very well that becoming emotionally attached to something(hell, this even happens with sports teams, and that's just grown men tossing around a ball or whatever) can lead a person to being just a wee bit fanatical about it.

So combine that "hope" of wanting something completed that you've invested yourself in financially and possibly emotionally, along with not giving a damn about seeing a ledger(or even knowing what one is), and knowing that you have no control over it anyway, and you end up with well... this. CR knows full well that the individual crowd funders don't individually have the legal means to do anything. Some of the people who put more into it might have enough money to get lawyers involved but that's just going to get expensive. Thus, they know there isn't much in the way of proper accountability for projects like these. That's not to say every person running a crowd funding project thinks that way, or does it intentionally(I'm not saying CR has intentionally screwed up). But just because you can generate some buzz, get money together, and get a project started, does not mean you know how to run a business.

 

[DocSavage]

She even claimed to have interviewed for the job, I remember one where she jokingly said she was afraid she'd have issues getting the job because she didn't play Freelancer. It was entirely fabricated and meant to present a story that was false to the backers.

I seem to recall a similar thing, but can't be sure. If it's true...wow, just wow.

Isn't lieing a prerequisite for both marketing and human resources? This just proves her qualifications.