The End of Blu-ray

Nightfire

[H]ard|Gawd
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Still burning? I used to, I gave it up. I do MKV HQ -> .265 1080p and keep the DTS or AC3 intact. Movies are 2-3gb (or less) and look perfect coming from my Plex server to Roku.

I used to do BD-Rebuilder and burn DVD-DL but honestly I cannot tell the difference at all between those and the 2gb MKVs handbrake is spitting out. And it keeps chapters and does subtitle burn in which is nice.

And the beautiful thing is Plex is easy enough for the wifey. It's basically home sourced netflix nowadays. Except my rips look much superior :)

Oh, and a Ryzen 7 1700 (which I got on the FS forum for cheap) does pretty well with handbrake. Sure, a threadripper would be nice, but still....
No but I figured it could one day be used for a camper or something similar that has only a DVD player available.
I am not sure what plex is, but I store everything on my 3 GB WD network drive and it plays movies on 2 TVs, an xbox and a PC when connected to my router.
 

Nightfire

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
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Blu-ray movies were actually $40-$60 when they were first released, which many people have forgotten. HD-DVD were in the $30-$40 range.

They're doing the same shit now with 4K Blu-ray: upscaling the standard 1080p Blu-ray video to 4K. I have to do the same thing I was doing when Blu-ray was first released and research places like the Blu-ray.com forums to see if the encode is worth the purchase or not.

All streaming providers use 25 Mbps for their 4K streams, which is shit. Many people have tested and confirmed that most "4K" streams are actually 15-18 Mbps. It doesn't matter if you have a 100 Mbps or 1 Gbps connection, it's still going to look and sound like shit.
These are some excellent points. Many here say that streaming has killed Bluray. Not so. Bluray has killed physical media.

Let's go back a dozen years and try to remember what we expected the internet to be like today, you know, back in the Limewire days, where internet speeds were growing like crazy and we expected to be able to get limitless high-speed internet in every African hut by this time (exaggerating slightly). Of course that never happened, even in some affluent west coast neighborhoods.

This brings me to the format war, and even with these less-than-stellar data speeds, consumers and companies are ready to dump the 'winning' format Bluray.
We all know why Bluray won (first PS3 then Warner shifting over), but it has become clear to me that the wrong format was picked.
I feel like the evil side had won since it was supported by Sony and Disney, LOL.

So then why would HDDVD have been the better choice? Well these are a few reasons I could think of:
More PC friendly - Bill Gates mentioned this back and the day mentioning the DRM on Blurays. It's amazing how few laptops ever bothered with Bluray.
Cheaper to produce - Not sure if this was due to how the discs were produced or if it was for paying out royalties, but the end state is the same.
The masses had no interest in paying $40+ for a movie and it is why few people even bothered initially outside of PS3 owners.
Better compatibility - I guess this goes with cheaper, but the fact that hybrid discs could easily be produced to play on both players seemed attractive.

Why was Bluray better? The only thing that comes to mind is disc capacity.
That seems like a big advantage, but frankly, 15 GB is plenty big for an HD movie if you forgo the 10 GB? of Dolby Atmos and BR3D support that eats up much of the disc.
It's strange that there seems to be no middle ground for audio. The same people that threw out CDs for 128 kb/s MP3s are demanding 6 Mb/s audio in their movies. Just sayin'.

Toshiba could have prevented this mess with the help of Microsoft. Just as Sony had the Bluray PS3, Microsoft could have integrated HDDVD in their console.
The PS3 was $500 and $600 for the 2 models to cover some of the costs of the Bluray. The XBOX 360 was $300 and $400 for the 20 GB and 60 GB models.
Microsoft should have had a $300 DVD version as well as larger HDD version with HDDVD at $450 or less (with Toshiba covering some of the costs as they had the most to lose in the format war).
The console wouldn't play HDDVD games, but just have it to battle the format war. There was an HDDVD add-on, but that was seen as awkward and was poorly marketed.

So here we are, 12 years later with possibly an even worse performing format in UHD discs.
In an ironic twist, the current gen Sony console (you know the people that gave us Bluray) does not even support the format while both current (OneX) and last gen remodel (OneS) Microsoft consoles do support it. What a bunch of (insert expletive)!

/end rant
 

Darth Ender

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
501
physical media only exists for movies / tv / music / games etc because on demand streaming isn't as profitable or viable for the particular medium. As we get more and more connected to actual broadband everywhere we are, companies need physical media less and it begins to significantly hurt profits.

The future is one where you dont own anything you watch, read, listen to or use. It's all licensed to you on a subscription so that companies can maximize the profits on everything they can. It's the only option that makes sense. Businesses dont do things that benefit the consumer. They do things that benefit themselves.

just wait until micropayments can be made without expensive credit card exchanges ....That's the holy grail for screwing over the consumer and you can bet they'll have the public convinced that we want it by the time it's ready. We're basically demanding this future.
 

Derangel

Fully [H]
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Jan 31, 2008
Messages
18,552
These are some excellent points. Many here say that streaming has killed Bluray. Not so. Bluray has killed physical media.

Let's go back a dozen years and try to remember what we expected the internet to be like today, you know, back in the Limewire days, where internet speeds were growing like crazy and we expected to be able to get limitless high-speed internet in every African hut by this time (exaggerating slightly). Of course that never happened, even in some affluent west coast neighborhoods.

This brings me to the format war, and even with these less-than-stellar data speeds, consumers and companies are ready to dump the 'winning' format Bluray.
We all know why Bluray won (first PS3 then Warner shifting over), but it has become clear to me that the wrong format was picked.
I feel like the evil side had won since it was supported by Sony and Disney, LOL.

So then why would HDDVD have been the better choice? Well these are a few reasons I could think of:
More PC friendly - Bill Gates mentioned this back and the day mentioning the DRM on Blurays. It's amazing how few laptops ever bothered with Bluray.
Cheaper to produce - Not sure if this was due to how the discs were produced or if it was for paying out royalties, but the end state is the same.
The masses had no interest in paying $40+ for a movie and it is why few people even bothered initially outside of PS3 owners.
Better compatibility - I guess this goes with cheaper, but the fact that hybrid discs could easily be produced to play on both players seemed attractive.

Why was Bluray better? The only thing that comes to mind is disc capacity.
That seems like a big advantage, but frankly, 15 GB is plenty big for an HD movie if you forgo the 10 GB? of Dolby Atmos and BR3D support that eats up much of the disc.
It's strange that there seems to be no middle ground for audio. The same people that threw out CDs for 128 kb/s MP3s are demanding 6 Mb/s audio in their movies. Just sayin'.

Toshiba could have prevented this mess with the help of Microsoft. Just as Sony had the Bluray PS3, Microsoft could have integrated HDDVD in their console.
The PS3 was $500 and $600 for the 2 models to cover some of the costs of the Bluray. The XBOX 360 was $300 and $400 for the 20 GB and 60 GB models.
Microsoft should have had a $300 DVD version as well as larger HDD version with HDDVD at $450 or less (with Toshiba covering some of the costs as they had the most to lose in the format war).
The console wouldn't play HDDVD games, but just have it to battle the format war. There was an HDDVD add-on, but that was seen as awkward and was poorly marketed.

So here we are, 12 years later with possibly an even worse performing format in UHD discs.
In an ironic twist, the current gen Sony console (you know the people that gave us Bluray) does not even support the format while both current (OneX) and last gen remodel (OneS) Microsoft consoles do support it. What a bunch of (insert expletive)!

/end rant
HDDVD was a dead-end from the word go. There was never a situation in which it was going to survive and Toshiba knew this. Toshiba tried to get Sony to merge BD and HDDVD before either format came out.

MS would never had done a HDDVD version of the 360 because they also knew the format was doomed and, presumably, only adopted it to both get at Sony and to try and harm physical media. The add-on's rushed design and bad marketing was probably entirely intentional. MS was heavily pushing digital content around the same time and that is where their attention was aimed at. Let's not forget that around the same time MS paid Netflix to develop an app exclusively for the 360.
 

Nightfire

[H]ard|Gawd
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HDDVD was a dead-end from the word go. There was never a situation in which it was going to survive and Toshiba knew this. Toshiba tried to get Sony to merge BD and HDDVD before either format came out.

MS would never had done a HDDVD version of the 360 because they also knew the format was doomed and, presumably, only adopted it to both get at Sony and to try and harm physical media. The add-on's rushed design and bad marketing was probably entirely intentional. MS was heavily pushing digital content around the same time and that is where their attention was aimed at. Let's not forget that around the same time MS paid Netflix to develop an app exclusively for the 360.
It's fun to make up information. Let's totally ignore that Toshiba lost nearly $1 billion dollars in the ordeal so i doubt Toshiba was quick to give up on it.
The format war was not officially dead until Warner went to Bluray in early 2008. The Xbox 360 was released in late 2015, WAY before the format war was decided.
The end of 2006 was when the PS3 released, and after realizing what a critical mistake they made, Toshiba pushed out the external HDDVD for the console.
By then, it was too little too late.
 

Derangel

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It's fun to make up information. Let's totally ignore that Toshiba lost nearly $1 billion dollars in the ordeal so i doubt Toshiba was quick to give up on it.
The format war was not officially dead until Warner went to Bluray in early 2008. The Xbox 360 was released in late 2015, WAY before the format war was decided.
The end of 2006 was when the PS3 released, and after realizing what a critical mistake they made, Toshiba pushed out the external HDDVD for the console.
By then, it was too little too late.
Who said anything about them being quick to give up? Sony and Toshiba made a similar deal when it came to DVD. Toshiba wanted to do the same vs fighting an expensive war that they'd probably lose because Toshiba simply never had the kind of support Sony and the BDA had. Sony said no (likely because of the DVD deal not allowing them to get royalties on DVD disc sales) so Toshiba went on to trying to fight a format war. Even in the early days it was clear the BD had the attention of most of the tech industry and a good portion of Hollywood. Outside of a miracle there was really no chance of HDDVD winning.

WB dropping HDDVD was the death knell for the format, but it's death was inevitable at that point.

Yes, I know when the 360 released. My point was that MS didn't care about the format war as they were interested in digital media. They were never going to fully adopt HDDVD because it didn't benefit their digital strategy. IF Microsoft had wanted to fully go in on the format war and fully back HDDVD then there might have been a better chance at it surviving, but they didn't. They wanted people to get movies from their digital store (that launched with the first redesign of the 360 UI) or use their exclusive (at least for a year) Netflix app
 

Nightfire

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Who said anything about them being quick to give up? Sony and Toshiba made a similar deal when it came to DVD. Toshiba wanted to do the same vs fighting an expensive war that they'd probably lose because Toshiba simply never had the kind of support Sony and the BDA had. Sony said no (likely because of the DVD deal not allowing them to get royalties on DVD disc sales) so Toshiba went on to trying to fight a format war. Even in the early days it was clear the BD had the attention of most of the tech industry and a good portion of Hollywood. Outside of a miracle there was really no chance of HDDVD winning.

WB dropping HDDVD was the death knell for the format, but it's death was inevitable at that point.

Yes, I know when the 360 released. My point was that MS didn't care about the format war as they were interested in digital media. They were never going to fully adopt HDDVD because it didn't benefit their digital strategy. IF Microsoft had wanted to fully go in on the format war and fully back HDDVD then there might have been a better chance at it surviving, but they didn't. They wanted people to get movies from their digital store (that launched with the first redesign of the 360 UI) or use their exclusive (at least for a year) Netflix app
The Netflix app came out in 2009, well after the format war was decided. Though they didn't have as much to gain or lose as Toshiba, the Xbox 360 would have sold even more systems if it had the winning format. Also, if your claim is that Microsoft just wants digital dollars, why in the world would they put an UHD disc drive in the One S??

Bluray did have a leg up with Sony, Fox, and Disney on their side while Paramount and Universal were in the HDDVD camp. That said, it was not as simple as 3 is better than 2 as Disney or Sony were not the juggernauts then as they are today:
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/studio/?view=company&view2=yearly&yr=2005&p=.htm

The format war was anyone's game until Warner switched over in early 2008. That was mostly caused by the dominance of Bluray players via the PS3.

Feel free to counter with some other made up claims.
 

Derangel

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The Netflix app came out in 2009, well after the format war was decided. Though they didn't have as much to gain or lose as Toshiba, the Xbox 360 would have sold even more systems if it had the winning format. Also, if your claim is that Microsoft just wants digital dollars, why in the world would they put an UHD disc drive in the One S??

Bluray did have a leg up with Sony, Fox, and Disney on their side while Paramount and Universal were in the HDDVD camp. That said, it was not as simple as 3 is better than 2 as Disney or Sony were not the juggernauts then as they are today:
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/studio/?view=company&view2=yearly&yr=2005&p=.htm

The format war was anyone's game until Warner switched over in early 2008. That was mostly caused by the dominance of Bluray players via the PS3.

Feel free to counter with some other made up claims.
How would the 360 have sold more if it had picked the winning format?

Do you remember the XB1 announcement? It was all about digital media, always online, and stuff like that. They went with BD because games simply don't fit on DVDs anymore, but they wanted people to go all digital. As for UHD, lets not forget that the XB division (and the entire company) has completely changed management in that time. The people that made decisions about the 360 and media are no longer running the show. Different people with different ideas and priorities make choices now. Putting UHD in the S and making it the cheapest (at the time) UHD player was one of the selling points of the system.

BD also had the majority of the tech and electronics industries support. While Sony Pictures certainly wasn't the juggernaut it became, Sony corp itself was freaking huge. It wasn't until a few years later (if I remember correctly) that Sony started to fall apart. There were major players like Samsung (who was, also, not quite the juggernaut they are now but were still huge) doing both, but I don't recall most of the other founding BDA members doing both.

You're defending HD-DVD as if you had a personal stake in the format. It was a good format, but I just don't believe there was ever a real chance of it winning. At least not without Toshiba finding a way to get better support. That said, there is more to it's death than just the PS3 and WB. Even beyond MS, Sony agreeing to add strict DRM to appeal to Fox/Disney (both? My memory fails me on the exact details) while Toshiba refused hurt HD-DVD.
 

Hagrid

[H]F Junkie
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Messages
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Poor quality streaming with no ownership (they often pull content and add sometimes) , macroblocking and horrible sound? All while chewing data caps? People still use that? Pffffft.
Poor quality? Not sure where you stream from. Sounds fine to me. Data cap? What is that? Macroblocking?
 

4saken

[H]F Junkie
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Messages
11,009
These are some excellent points. Many here say that streaming has killed Bluray. Not so. Bluray has killed physical media.

Let's go back a dozen years and try to remember what we expected the internet to be like today, you know, back in the Limewire days, where internet speeds were growing like crazy and we expected to be able to get limitless high-speed internet in every African hut by this time (exaggerating slightly). Of course that never happened, even in some affluent west coast neighborhoods.

This brings me to the format war, and even with these less-than-stellar data speeds, consumers and companies are ready to dump the 'winning' format Bluray.
We all know why Bluray won (first PS3 then Warner shifting over), but it has become clear to me that the wrong format was picked.
I feel like the evil side had won since it was supported by Sony and Disney, LOL.

So then why would HDDVD have been the better choice? Well these are a few reasons I could think of:
More PC friendly - Bill Gates mentioned this back and the day mentioning the DRM on Blurays. It's amazing how few laptops ever bothered with Bluray.
Cheaper to produce - Not sure if this was due to how the discs were produced or if it was for paying out royalties, but the end state is the same.
The masses had no interest in paying $40+ for a movie and it is why few people even bothered initially outside of PS3 owners.
Better compatibility - I guess this goes with cheaper, but the fact that hybrid discs could easily be produced to play on both players seemed attractive.

Why was Bluray better? The only thing that comes to mind is disc capacity.
That seems like a big advantage, but frankly, 15 GB is plenty big for an HD movie if you forgo the 10 GB? of Dolby Atmos and BR3D support that eats up much of the disc.
It's strange that there seems to be no middle ground for audio. The same people that threw out CDs for 128 kb/s MP3s are demanding 6 Mb/s audio in their movies. Just sayin'.

Toshiba could have prevented this mess with the help of Microsoft. Just as Sony had the Bluray PS3, Microsoft could have integrated HDDVD in their console.
The PS3 was $500 and $600 for the 2 models to cover some of the costs of the Bluray. The XBOX 360 was $300 and $400 for the 20 GB and 60 GB models.
Microsoft should have had a $300 DVD version as well as larger HDD version with HDDVD at $450 or less (with Toshiba covering some of the costs as they had the most to lose in the format war).
The console wouldn't play HDDVD games, but just have it to battle the format war. There was an HDDVD add-on, but that was seen as awkward and was poorly marketed.

So here we are, 12 years later with possibly an even worse performing format in UHD discs.
In an ironic twist, the current gen Sony console (you know the people that gave us Bluray) does not even support the format while both current (OneX) and last gen remodel (OneS) Microsoft consoles do support it. What a bunch of (insert expletive)!

/end rant

Playstation 3 is what won and ended the war. Bottom line. HDDVD was DOA when MS didnt support OTB
 

Nightfire

[H]ard|Gawd
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You do realize that many PS3 consoles were sold solely for the bluray drive, do you not?

Even at $500-$600, the PS3 was still one of the best bank-for-buck bluray players. It was estimated that Sony was losing $200-$300 per console. Microsoft could have undercut this even with an hddvd drive as (part of) the cost of the PS3 also came from the exotic CPU.

Despite still selling more 360s than Sony did with the PS3, Microsoft surely could have taken an even bigger share from Sony and possibly Nintendo if they had a solid HD movie player in their console.

Most of what else you say is conjecture and came AFTER the realization that Bluray was the winner. Yes, Microsoft needed Bluray discs in the X1 for game size, but they really had no option. Hddvd would have worked just fine had it been the winner. Apparently putting an UHD drive in a OneS to drive sales is a good enough reason for that console to have it, but same same reason was not good enough for the 360 so many years before. Yeah that makes sense.

No, I don't have stock in HDDVD my friend. I just wanted to make it apparent that everything Sony pushes is bad for the consumer and even industry as a whole.
 

Derangel

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You do realize that many PS3 consoles were sold solely for the bluray drive, do you not?

Even at $500-$600, the PS3 was still one of the best bank-for-buck bluray players. It was estimated that Sony was losing $200-$300 per console. Microsoft could have undercut this even with an hddvd drive as (part of) the cost of the PS3 also came from the exotic CPU.

Despite still selling more 360s than Sony did with the PS3, Microsoft surely could have taken an even bigger share from Sony and possibly Nintendo if they had a solid HD movie player in their console.

Most of what else you say is conjecture and came AFTER the realization that Bluray was the winner. Yes, Microsoft needed Bluray discs in the X1 for game size, but they really had no option. Hddvd would have worked just fine had it been the winner. Apparently putting an UHD drive in a OneS to drive sales is a good enough reason for that console to have it, but same same reason was not good enough for the 360 so many years before. Yeah that makes sense.

No, I don't have stock in HDDVD my friend. I just wanted to make it apparent that everything Sony pushes is bad for the consumer and even industry as a whole.
Where, exactly, did I say that the PS3 wasn't sold because of blu-ray? Where, exactly, was I saying that it wasn't part of the reason HD-DVD died? You are making up arguments I never made.

I'm not sure if having a HD player in the 360 would have done much. Maybe it could have, but its really hard to say.

What part of "different management" is hard to understand? You do realize that having different people in charge of divisions and the entire company means that the division and the company will make different decisions, right? You also realize that the XB1 has been, massively, losing to the PS4 and that would change how the company approaches things and the risks they take, yes?

HD-DVD would have been no better for the consumer if it had won. In order to win Toshiba would have needed to bow to the demands of Hollywood, which would mean adopting strict DRM. The "what if" scenario you have created in your head does not fit what would have really happened. Toshiba doesn't care any more about the consumer than Sony does.
 

Nightfire

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Where, exactly, did I say that the PS3 wasn't sold because of blu-ray? Where, exactly, was I saying that it wasn't part of the reason HD-DVD died? You are making up arguments I never made.

I'm not sure if having a HD player in the 360 would have done much. Maybe it could have, but its really hard to say.

What part of "different management" is hard to understand? You do realize that having different people in charge of divisions and the entire company means that the division and the company will make different decisions, right? You also realize that the XB1 has been, massively, losing to the PS4 and that would change how the company approaches things and the risks they take, yes?

HD-DVD would have been no better for the consumer if it had won. In order to win Toshiba would have needed to bow to the demands of Hollywood, which would mean adopting strict DRM. The "what if" scenario you have created in your head does not fit what would have really happened. Toshiba doesn't care any more about the consumer than Sony does.
Don't play coy. You literally asked how the 360 would sell more if it had thr hddvd so the link to your bluray ps3 assumptions was not hard to make.

The rest of your statement is mostly more baseless nonsense. What does the PS4/One have to do with this? It is the more powerful console AND has the better games so that is why it is winning.

How would Toshiba need to bow to Hollywood? Pretty sure Hollywood would need Toshiba and other's cooperation to sell their movies. This is in stark contrast to Sony who can now pretty much stick it to Hollywood and the consumer as they see fit and to the limit of what they can get away with.
 

Hagrid

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Ok we get it, you have fantastic internet and piss on everyone else. Feel free to pat yourself on the back now.
I prefer on my booty. :)
I have Cox and it works awesome. We have multiple people streaming, no problem.
 

Nightfire

[H]ard|Gawd
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Good Lord, I doubt anyone could have imagined Bluray being at this sorry of a state. Yes, streaming services have taken a toll on physical media and we knew that would happen then as we did now, by how in the world is Samsung selling more DVD players than they are Bluray players??
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13974/samsung-to-cease-selling-blu-ray-players-in-the-us

If I recall correctly, not only were the disk more expensive to make than HDDVD, but the drives themselves were as well.

BluRay has been a disaster for consumers, retailers, and the movie industry as a whole.
 

Nightfire

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I prefer on my booty. :)
I have Cox and it works awesome. We have multiple people streaming, no problem.
Xfinity is available here and has more internet than we would ever need. Right now we have a dedicated tablet from T-Mobile that hotspots to an AP that feeds into a Router. It does have a data cap at 50 GB in which it slows down afterwards. Still, our phones have unlimited internet. There is also a NAS connected to the router with a couple hundred movies if the kids get bored.
It saves me $80/month and saves me the stress of dealing with an ISP as they always try to stick it to you at some point.

I am sure there are plenty of people in a similar situation in which a strong physical media presence would be welcomed.
 

Derangel

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Don't play coy. You literally asked how the 360 would sell more if it had thr hddvd so the link to your bluray ps3 assumptions was not hard to make.

The rest of your statement is mostly more baseless nonsense. What does the PS4/One have to do with this? It is the more powerful console AND has the better games so that is why it is winning.

How would Toshiba need to bow to Hollywood? Pretty sure Hollywood would need Toshiba and other's cooperation to sell their movies. This is in stark contrast to Sony who can now pretty much stick it to Hollywood and the consumer as they see fit and to the limit of what they can get away with.
Yes, I asked how the system that was already selling incredibly well would sell more by adding a HD-DVD drive. This is a logical question to ask when someone makes a definitive statement as if they're somehow able to see into some alternate reality where their "what if" scenario happened. It is a question of what lead you to making that assumption. It has fuck all to do with the PS3. The only assumption I have made is that you are capable of forming a reasonable argument without willfully ignoring context.

The reasons the PS4 is selling better are entirely irrelevant. The PAINFULLY OBVIOUS reason why I brought up the PS4's sales was because they have a direct effect on the decisions MS takes when it comes to the XB1. You commented on it not making sense for the S to include a UHD drive, I stated reasons why it did. You chose to ignore those and focus on the one tiny thing you believe you could "counter" to get a "gotcha" on me. You failed.

In order to win Toshiba would have needed to find a way to appeal to Fox and Disney and figure out how to convince WB to drop BD entirely. Since Fox and Disney are massively pro-DRM, Toshiba's options would either be to find a way to force them into not having a choice (which would have been neigh impossible) or alter aspects of the format in ways that would fit their demands. The best way for Toshiba to appeal to Fox and Disney would have been to add strict DRM to HD-DVD, something even more secure than what Sony developed for BD. Even if they had convinced Fox and Sony to support both formats (which still would have required more strict DRM than what HD-DVD had) they could have stood a chance. Regardless, it would have required them to bow to the demands of studios.

PS: Sony can't "stick it to Hollywood". Sony neither owns nor fully controls blu-ray. One of the smartest moves the companies behind BD made early on was forming the Blu-Ray Disc Association to control the BD format. Sony has the power to vote on decisions and has a say, but they are one of many voices in control of the BDA. Fun fact: Toshiba joined the BDA in 2009 and was later named as one of the companies on the board of directors.
 

Nightfire

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HDDVD was a dead-end from the word go. There was never a situation in which it was going to survive and Toshiba knew this...
Who said anything about them being quick to give up? Sony and Toshiba made a similar deal when it came to DVD....
Well you contradicted yourself on back to back post here.

How would the 360 have sold more if it had picked the winning format?...
Where, exactly, did I say that the PS3 wasn't sold because of blu-ray? Where, exactly, was I saying that it wasn't part of the reason HD-DVD died? You are making up arguments I never made...
And here. Now that you are in an emotional state, this is even more fun.


Yes, I asked how the system that was already selling incredibly well would sell more by adding a HD-DVD drive. This is a logical question to ask when someone makes a definitive statement as if they're somehow able to see into some alternate reality where their "what if" scenario happened. It is a question of what lead you to making that assumption. It has fuck all to do with the PS3. The only assumption I have made is that you are capable of forming a reasonable argument without willfully ignoring context.

The reasons the PS4 is selling better are entirely irrelevant. The PAINFULLY OBVIOUS reason why I brought up the PS4's sales was because they have a direct effect on the decisions MS takes when it comes to the XB1. You commented on it not making sense for the S to include a UHD drive, I stated reasons why it did. You chose to ignore those and focus on the one tiny thing you believe you could "counter" to get a "gotcha" on me. You failed.

In order to win Toshiba would have needed to find a way to appeal to Fox and Disney and figure out how to convince WB to drop BD entirely. Since Fox and Disney are massively pro-DRM, Toshiba's options would either be to find a way to force them into not having a choice (which would have been neigh impossible) or alter aspects of the format in ways that would fit their demands. The best way for Toshiba to appeal to Fox and Disney would have been to add strict DRM to HD-DVD, something even more secure than what Sony developed for BD. Even if they had convinced Fox and Sony to support both formats (which still would have required more strict DRM than what HD-DVD had) they could have stood a chance. Regardless, it would have required them to bow to the demands of studios.

PS: Sony can't "stick it to Hollywood". Sony neither owns nor fully controls blu-ray. One of the smartest moves the companies behind BD made early on was forming the Blu-Ray Disc Association to control the BD format. Sony has the power to vote on decisions and has a say, but they are one of many voices in control of the BDA. Fun fact: Toshiba joined the BDA in 2009 and was later named as one of the companies on the board of directors.

Despite outselling the PS3, the 360 was not selling "incredibly well", especially in the early years. The Wii took both of them to school and had the 360 came with an HDDVD, it would have taken plenty of more PS3 sales with a bunch of people willing to get the "Wii360" as the 360 itself was much cheaper to produce as was hddvd drives over BR drives.

I am glad you started the next paragraph with the PS4 selling better is irrelevant but then you start alluding to God knows what. The PS4 and XB1 would have both used HDDVD had that format won. Simple as that.

Had Warner went with HDDVD, Sony and Disney would have ad to join them as well, just as Paramount and Universal did when Warner made the announcement as they were always solid in the HDDVD camp up to that time. It's not like Sony stuck with Betamax when it lost the format war. (not sure if they produced movies then, but you get the point)

Even in an ideal streaming world, there is a lot of benefits to physical media such as reliable archiving and large data transfers on secure (USB-fordidden) networks as well as simply having the empowerment of actually owning something. I also loved things like commentary on South Park videos. At this point in it's lifecycle, you could pick up DVDs for dirt cheap, same for DVD Rs. That is still not the case with Blurays as this situation surely would have been better with HDDVD. Streaming has been slowly killing physical media. But the failure of Bluray has done so faster than any of the streaming services and ISPs could have hoped for.[/QUOTE]
 

Darth Ender

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
501
there is no benefit to physical media for companies that make them and the companies that produce the content. It's a necessary evil that is quickly becoming unecessary.

That's the only metric that matters. Start thinking of reasons why they would want physical media that offers no repeating revenue and less control and maybe you'll have an argument for why it should continue to exist.
 

Dr. Righteous

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 1, 2007
Messages
3,163
Never owned a set top Blu-ray player. Just a PC Blu-Ray player which I ripped discs with. And I got out of that several years ago.
I was always a movie fan; but I'm a fan of GOOD movies. In the day of Disney Star wars and comic book hero movies there is just no place for me anymore.
The only Blu-Ray movie disc I own is Judge Dredd in 3D. It was like $7 bux at WalMart. I wanted to try my hand a ripping a 3D movie. Was never successful; always got the 2D version.
But as it turned out my disc ripping days had pretty much run their course.
 

Dr. Righteous

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 1, 2007
Messages
3,163
Luv me sum lazer disk
Had a buddy with a Pioneer laser disc player; he had Pink Floyd The Delicate Sound of Thunder live concert on Laserdisc. I remember it had just come out. He said the disc cost $60 bux. I think this was 1988, or 1989. A bunch of us gather for a watch party. He had a nice TV with a S-Video input. I remember the picture quality seemed amazing, and it was for the time. This was also the time when CD players were starting to come down in price and get affordable. So getting together and listening to new music on CD was a cool thing to do then.
 

zamardii12

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
2,688
I am still impatiently waiting for either of them to offer UHD Blu-ray rental.
This is what I tell people who don't believe me about this... when you buy a Ultra HD Blu Ray it looks way better than streaming 4k. Also you get the digital copy with almost every 4K purchase which is awesome.

Also remember how people said CDs are going to die? They still sell them. Remember how long ago vinyl was popular? Well they still sell those too and numbers are rising. I think Blu-Ray will be around for a while yet.
 

dvsman

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Messages
3,097
Right now I've switched from PC BR on a HTPC (Ncase build) to just using my XBox. While I do some video streaming (I buy the disc+digital combo packs), there are still too many gotchas still that make it a pain in the butt. Not to mention the extras, behind the scenes, different audio channel / close caption options that are on disc. I don't know about other people but I like to have the movie running with Atmos and close captions at the same time.

I appreciate the convenience of the digital copies for when I travel with my laptop and can watch something on Vudu (or using a projector at the office for an office party) but if I'm at home with access to all my hardware and OLED TV ... I'm watching the 4KUHDs.
 

Domingo

Fully [H]
Joined
Jul 30, 2004
Messages
17,550
I'm still irked by the sound of streaming movies. Not the quality either. Whatever compression they're using, be it DD+ or Atmos - they always wash out the center channel dialogue. I'll crank up the volume so I can hear what people are saying and then literally any other noise shakes my house. God forbid if there's a gunshot, car engine, or musical number.
I don't have that issue with disks, mkv rips, or even digital videos that are downloaded in their entirety (rather than streaming).
 

Nightfire

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 7, 2017
Messages
2,046
It was probably a good move that Microsoft launched the Xbox without an HDDVD to get into the market first. That said, Toshiba had a rather poor attempt with the add on device at $200. The clunky setup was not worth the $200 asking price, and had they sold it for $100, it would have been a much more attractive offering over Sonys setup. Blue diodes were in short supply, but I don't remember the add on device flying off the shelves.

Indeed, it can be said that Microsofts strategy was to keep the format war going as long as possible as it hurt their competition most and seem like a good idea, at least in the 'Surface'.

Still, I think they overplayed their hand a bit. With the high cost of Blu-ray, laptops stopped using disk drives altogether, and PCs mostly stuck with DVD drives. That pushed consumers away from laptops and towards tablets, which often didn't use Microsoft's Software.

This video is probably the best breakdown of the format war:
 

Zarathustra[H]

Official Forum Curmudgeon
Joined
Oct 29, 2000
Messages
29,483
If this results in streaming being the only option, it will be very sad. The quality just isn't there. Sure, it's good enough for most users, but I am not most users.

If Bluray goes the way of the dodo, there needs to be something to eplace it for high bitrate content. A good quality 2 hour 1080p film just can't get away with less than ~25 or so GB. Go up to 4k and that number goes up ever higher. Streaming is not doing the content justice.
 

zamardii12

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
2,688
I'll crank up the volume so I can hear what people are saying and then literally any other noise shakes my house. God forbid if there's a gunshot, car engine, or musical number..
Absolutely this! However I feel like this has been a problem for forever... whether streaming, cable TV, VHS, DVD, and everything... The voices were always the hardest to hear. Today it still sucks. I literally watch EVERYTHING with subtitles now.
 

Lepardi

Limp Gawd
Joined
Nov 8, 2017
Messages
236
Absolutely this! However I feel like this has been a problem for forever... whether streaming, cable TV, VHS, DVD, and everything... The voices were always the hardest to hear. Today it still sucks. I literally watch EVERYTHING with subtitles now.
It's a problem with Hollywood's obsession with dynamic ranges that exceed safe listening decibels for human hearing. If you want to have 60dB natural sounding dialogue, the 40dB of additional dynamic range makes it dangerous for hearing.

I haven't watched movies without a sound system that has a "night mode" or similar dynamic compression for a decade. Nowadays it's hard to find soundbars that have them for example, which is a shame. The explosions still sound like explosions on my Yamaha YAS-101 with the univolume feature, but I don't feel uncomfortable when keeping the dialogue in good levels.
 

Domingo

Fully [H]
Joined
Jul 30, 2004
Messages
17,550
For me I'd say most of the time I don't have huge issues with dialogue vs. other sound. It's always a bit of an issue, but it isn't unbearable.
My real issues are mostly related to streaming. There are exceptions, but I feel like my disk media and rips are mostly okay.
Could also just be the programs I'm using to play them, too. I use MPC-HC and PowerDVD with everything set to externally decode via my receiver. Things mostly sound fine.
Ditto with my video games. I game via HDMI to my AVR as well.

But Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, and whatever other streaming services I've used are another story. It's like the center channel is intentionally softer than everything else. My usual volume setting for 99% of content is between 47-49. With streaming it's around 60...and it's almost entirely to compensate for soft dialogue. The other channels seem mostly normal, so when they kick in, it's excessive. It doesn't matter if it's DD+, Atmos, Pro-Logic (which especially sucks), or even normal stereo.
 

ManofGod

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
11,540
There are certain things I will buy on Bluray. However, most things are overpriced and not worth watching more than once. I do have the Star Blazers Volume 1 remake and although it was not cheap, at $45, it was worth it. Eventually, I will buy the second volume. however.
 
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