The 32 inch 4k IPS 144hz's...(Update - this party is started) (wait for it...)

JohnnyFlash

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Maybe some wonky EU-Batch (mine is made on 07/2022), who knows...
Also most german user-reviews I saw so far, almost everyone was complaining about loud fans. A guy on German amazon went through 3 of those displays and all had the problem.
I'll probably keep mine though, since everything else is great.
Amazon has it on sale for 20% off right now, I might give it a second go and hope for a better outcome on the eye fatigue.
 

neojam

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US?
On German Amazon it's actually got more expensive by 40 €, costing now 1.170€.
Unless you want wait for the new BOA Panels:
https://tftcentral.co.uk/news/boe-latest-panel-development-plans-july-2022
31.5″ panel with 3840 x 2160 4K resolution and 240Hz refresh rate. This one would have 4608 dimming zones apparently (number of LED’s not listed but expected to be 18,432 like the panel above), and is planned for a possible Q4 2022 production start although it feels like this might well slip given the date for the 60Hz panel above.

I dont think that there is currently anything better on the market and reasonably priced. Also I've been running it at 40 Brightness all the time and didnt experience any eye problems so far.
 
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JohnnyFlash

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US?
On German Amazon it's actually got more expensive by 40 €, costing now 1.170€.
Unless you want wait for the new BOA Panels:
https://tftcentral.co.uk/news/boe-latest-panel-development-plans-july-2022
31.5″ panel with 3840 x 2160 4K resolution and 240Hz refresh rate. This one would have 4608 dimming zones apparently (number of LED’s not listed but expected to be 18,432 like the panel above), and is planned for a possible Q4 2022 production start although it feels like this might well slip given the date for the 60Hz panel above.

I dont think that there is currently anything better on the market and reasonably priced. Also I've been running it at 40 Brightness all the time and didnt experience any eye problems so far.
Canada.

Ya, if you can work above the 30 brightness there should be no issues. Glad you're enjoying it, I miss it for gaming badly. You can't go back to 75hz. :(
 
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MistaSparkul

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Canada.

Ya, if you can work above the 30 brightness there should be no issues. Glad you're enjoying it, I miss it for gaming badly. You can't go back to 75hz. :(

https://pcmonitors.info/samsung/samsung-odyssey-g7-s32bg70-144hz-4k-ips-with-hdmi-2-1/

You can give this one a try. Gigabyte M32U uses an Innolux panel, Asus PG32UQ uses an AUO panel, LG 32GQ950 is using an LG panel, while this Samsung is using a BOE panel so who knows either this will be what you are looking for, or it's just gonna be mediocore like the rest of them.
 

JohnnyFlash

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https://pcmonitors.info/samsung/samsung-odyssey-g7-s32bg70-144hz-4k-ips-with-hdmi-2-1/

You can give this one a try. Gigabyte M32U uses an Innolux panel, Asus PG32UQ uses an AUO panel, LG 32GQ950 is using an LG panel, while this Samsung is using a BOE panel so who knows either this will be what you are looking for, or it's just gonna be mediocore like the rest of them.
Ya, looking at that one as well the Alienware 27 280Hz that's coming. I think I might be spoiled on the polarizer though, we'll have to see.

The PG32UQXE is nowhere to be seen either, which makes me think they weren't able to address the issues.
 

kasakka

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The PG32UQXE is nowhere to be seen either, which makes me think they weren't able to address the issues.
ASUS and massively delayed display releases is a pretty iconic duo though so it might not be an indicator of anything. I fully expect they will just push it to next year.

I really hope next year we would get at least one 32" 4K high refresh rate panel with good HDR and no major issues.
 

JohnnyFlash

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ASUS and massively delayed display releases is a pretty iconic duo though so it might not be an indicator of anything. I fully expect they will just push it to next year.

I really hope next year we would get at least one 32" 4K high refresh rate panel with good HDR and no major issues.
Very true, so there is still hope.

Response times on the x32 FP are the creamiest of hot garbage though, so tempered hope at best.
 

DanNeely

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Then LG needs the LED supply from Ennostar. They made it with the 12.9 inch iPad Pro with 10,000 Mini-LEDs at 20kHz.
The display takes up 60% of the iPad's entire component cost.

60% of $1100 is $650, for an 80in^2 backlight. 32" 4k displays are about 440 in^2. Assuming cost scales linearly with area that's a $3600 55k led backlight; given the much lower sales volumes probably several times that to recoup R&D costs. EZIO or NEC might be interested for their top end pro displays, but it won't be for us. :(
 

kramnelis

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LCD black sucks. There, I said it.
Not true.

A FALD LCD has a deep level of black. FALD was implemented to deal with contrast. The contrast is boosted to 1million:1 instead of 1,000:1. The EOTF of a FALD IPS is often tweaked blacker than an OLED under 2.5 nits. The movie lowlight is often a bit blacker on FALD IPS than on OLED. And you have to think how much more highlight a FALD LCD can deliver with a 1million:1 contrast backlight and a high color volume panel. There are bigger issues from OLED ABL, OLED flickering, OLED low brightness, cheap low-frequency backlight flickering as well as edge-lit blobbing without FALD.

You see a lot of fast images of eSport games on TN or OLED. You should've seen what good images looks like on Rainbow Six at 4K HDR on a completely different cinematic level.

I'm very familiar with the dictatorship of eSport low-quality images for the pinnacle performance of response time as well as input lag. But not everybody sweats 24/7 on eSports monitors just to win a game. We are talking about 4K 144Hz monitors. The image quality is the priority with over 8 million pixels. And a FALD IPS can give a much better brightness level, contrast ratio, and color volume.
 

Chief Blur Buster

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Not true.
Yes, the prototype 500,000-MiniLED FALD's that I've seen are amazing. No blooming! Could be a few years before they hit the market.

But spend only 3 figures on LCD and they... suck.

Don't get me wrong, LCD's are my specialty, and that's what I am paid to work on.

1667756445362.png


They can be great, but it's still a lot of turd-polishing behind the scenes.
 
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kramnelis

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They can be great, but it's still a lot of turd-polishing behind the scenes.
They said the products especially the high-end are all about tweaks based on the same or on a similar hardware level.
There is no product to cover everything. The hardest thing to make has the highest price.
A bright colorful panel looks the best. But is still slower. When it is tweaked a little fast in response time, it might look reddish.
As a result, you can always choose two monitors with a fast panel and a colorful panel but definitely not a cheap one with an expectation it will be enough.
 

Chief Blur Buster

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Nontheless, I admit am a huge fan of high-Hz OLED now. Due to GtG being very near 0, they have roughly an approximate 1.5x advantage in motion blur for the same sample-and-hold refresh rate, without adding strobing.

In other words, a 240Hz OLED is about as clear-motion as a 360Hz LCD due to GtG. OLEDs and direct-view MicroLED arrays generate almost purely MPRT-only motion blur, with zero GtG contribution.

There's minor differences; the worst 360Hz IPS will be slightly blurrier motion than 240Hz OLED and the fastest 360Hz E-TN (e.g. XL2566K) will be slightly clearer motion than 240Hz OLED. This comparision, of course, assumes framerate=Hz, for milking maximal clarity of the said display.

Remember, there's a lot of motion blur even at instant GtG=0, due to non-zero MPRT. Persistence motion blur is throttled to never being less than MAX(frametime,refreshtime) on a sample-and-hold display, and that even assumes GtG=0ms perfectly. Any nonzero GtG is additive blurs/ghosts.

LCD will stay viable well past this decade though, there are some major GtG speedups waiting in the wings as the decade progresses.

Due to Talbot-Plateau's Theorem, strobed MPRTs is vastly superior on LCDs than OLEDs, because of the ability to outsource the light source, and surge-pulse a heatsinked LED array much more brightly than OLED can.

This is clearly illustrated in the best crosstalkless LCDs, like the Valve Index VR, the Oculus Quest 2 VR, the ViewSonic XG2431 (with 3:1 Hz headroom + QFT + Strobe Utility), and with low-Hz (~100Hz) on XL2566K, since refresh rate headroom allows LCD GtG to be hidden in dark between refresh cycle scanouts, and long dark VBIs. These recent displays now produce crosstalkless sub-millisecond MPRTs and are among the few LCDs to become clearer-motion than a CRT tube, and can remain sufficiently usable (>100nits) thanks to LED voltage-boosting strobes.

However, OLED produces superior sample-and-hold thanks to it reaching darn near theoretically lowest possible blur per Hz -- so they are very friendly to brute-framerate-based motion blur reduction (low persistence sample and hold) currently produce superior results on OLED. Ergonomic flicker-free PWM-free strobe-free blur reduction, via sheer brute frame rate (and Hz) is more efficient on OLED. Since you can keep illuminating the pixels as long as you need (this keeps limited OLED brightness high, no brightness loss from strobing). And persistence stays low due to ultrasmall refreshtimes (1000fps 1000Hz = 1ms persistence blur without strobing!). Ultimately, Blur Busters' long term holy grail is strobeless ULMB, low persistence via flickerfree method, since real life does not strobe.

Unfortunately, it's a long journey before strobing/flicker becomes obsolete. To match 0.3ms MPRT(0%->100%) of the best strobed displays, you need 3333fps 3333Hz flickerless sample-and-hold (1000 / 0.3 = 3333). Fortunately, there's ways for GPUs to eventually get there. It is possible via reprojection technology (recently demo'd in non-VR -- 10:1 ratio frame rate amplification. If UE5 adds this support, 4K 1000fps 1000Hz UE5 should already be possible on an RTX 4090 since reprojection is more GPU memory bandwidth bottlenecked. I was able to convert 30fps to 280fps on a mobile RTX 2080 on a Razer Blade 15 with only 10-20% GPU. This technology is little known outside virtual reality, but makes possible gigantic amounts of strobeless motion blur reduction)

They will keep leapfrogging line-item benefits over each other for a long time, though!
 
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kramnelis

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The manufacturers might know this very well. They might just keep the LCD refresh rate 1.5x higher than OLED. It also has more benefits to input lag. OLED is only good in response time and that's pretty much all.

Speaking of the downside of OLED, there is a short term of black insertion at the start of every frame causing flickering that gives eye strain. Nobody solves the flickering because this is the fundamental property of OLED. It is directly caused by the operating mechanism of OLED.

The people who play games competitively 24/7 turn the monitor brightness to the high or to the max to have better visibility. People cannot do that with OLED. It gives eye strain at even very low brightness. They will know how painful OLED causes to the eyes. This kind of flickering is different than the controlled strobe.

It also doesn't have a good dynamic range of HDR due to limited color space and ABL. So no good HDR images come out OLED despite of relatively short lifespan.

The prediction is that OLED is going to be as much as a mid-tier SDR short-session casual gaming monitor. The real HDR monitor is the FALD LCD with a DC backlight. The eSport monitor is still the LCD with higher HZ and lower input lag until the OLED flickering is solved. I doubt anyone can solve it.
 

Chief Blur Buster

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Speaking of the downside of OLED, there is a short term of black insertion at the start of every frame causing flickering that gives eye strain. Nobody solves the flickering because this is the fundamental property of OLED. It is directly caused by the operating mechanism of OLED.
Depends on the OLED backplane and how it is designed. I've seen it go either way.

Some OLED backplanes are PWM-based, and other OLED backplanes aren't. There is a latching transistor in some OLED backplanes (multiple transistors per pixel).

In some cases the flicker of the best OLEDs is much less than some of the worst LCD voltage inversion electronics -- or LCD VRR flicker behavior -- or LCD FRC behavior. These aren't backlight-based behavior creating these forms of LCD flicker.

Some of the faster GtG responses creates more inversion-artifact flicker (combined with chessboard artifacts in solid colors), because all LCDs require both spatial and temporal voltage polarity alternating (+/-) aka voltage inversion. This is needed to prevent liquid crystals from getting statically charged over time (aka image retention). It's very difficult to produce exact negative voltages symmetric to the exact positive voltage, for the very exact same 10-bit shade, while maintaining ultra-fast pixel response. If you've ever seen scrolling lines or scrolling chessboards on certain gaming panels -- this is it. There's sometimes a design-choice of opposed tradeoffs between pixel response and artifacts from the voltage inversion logic. There are many algorithms to prevent flicker from voltage inversion, which is needed in all LCD panels. Some people get eyestrain from this too.

You can see the high speed videos in the Scanout article on Blur Busters -- I have a high speed video of an OLED there too as well. On one of them, the OLED flicker is extremely subtle (a single ultra-tiny brightness fluctuation of less than one millisecond between steady-state light-output for the remainder of the refresh cycles).

You cannot say generalities that apply to all OLED backplanes, nor all LCD backplanes.

The way electronics drive the pixels can be quite different -- including the number of transistors driving a pixel as the motherglass is simply a large integrated circuit board that doubles as a screen, and the circuits on the glass bezels, and behind each pixel can be quite different. A massive circuit (active matrix) is lithographed on the glass, and the circuit can be designed differently, e.g. Darlington transistor arrangement, or a latching transistor, etc.

Also, a second cause of LCD flicker other than LCD voltage inversion - is that brightness fluctuations found in some VRR panels -- where low frame rates have a slightly different dynamic range than high frame rates, creating visible flicker during sudden framerate fluctuations. There's a GtG decay effect where after the refresh pulse setting the molecular rotation of the liquid crystals -- the charge can decay and the pixel decays back to its rest state (e.g. white or black). A longer refresh interval (e.g. 1/30sec) versus a short refresh interval (e.g. 1/240sec) can have a light oscillating effect as the pixels are repeatedly pulsed (refresh pass) with variable intervals between refresh cycles.

Now, a third type of LCD flicker is the FRC algorithm, where FRC adds extra bit depth to an 6-bit (to create 8-bit) or 8-bit panel (to create 10-bit). It's essentially just a form of temporal dithering, but some people are unusually sensitive to this, while others are not.

Now, you've got unexpected interactions between 2 or 3 of these (voltage inversion algorithm, combined with FRC algorithm, combined with variable refresh rate), which can amplify flicker accidentally on certain panels.

And none of these are backlight-related!

In other words, even good fast-response LCD can flicker more than certain OLEDs -- depends on the panel, the active matrix design, how its pixels are driven, what mode it is driven in, etc.

There are OLED backplane designs that are virtually lagless (e.g. line-based refresh). At least if you don't enable HDR. You have the issue where some HDR modes needs a find-brightest-pixel algorithm for one reason or another (whether for dynamic picture levelling, or for syncing a FALD to the LCD scanout), and requires a full-framebuffering either for LCD or OLED, for processing, pre-empting ability to have subrefresh latency whenever HDR is enabled. There are ways around this for both technologies, but they are very different.

Current esports LCDs are fantastically fast since they keep processing low, and processing line-based -- synchronzing cable scanout to panel scanout -- allowing subrefresh latency for GPU-to-photons, on a pixel-for-pixel basis, just like a CRT. But there are also algorithms to enable OLED to achieve this, in the near term. OLED definitely is playing catchup here, given more lag, but digital LCD also used to have an awful amount of lag too until the innovation of rolling-scanlines-window processing algorithms that permitted subrefresh latency.

Either way, but both LCD and OLED are way more sample-and-hold than eye-searing flicker from CRT / Plasma, and much less than DLP temporal dithering.

And there are already solutions to both LCD and OLED flicker too. They're just very different engineering problems to deal with.

Source: I do paid work on contract for display manufacturers.
 
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kramnelis

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Some OLED backplanes are PWM-based, and other OLED backplanes aren't. There is a latching transistor in some OLED backplanes (multiple transistors per pixel).

In some cases the flicker of the best OLEDs is much less than some of the worst LCD voltage inversion electronics -- or LCD VRR flicker behavior -- or LCD FRC behavior. These aren't backlight-based behavior creating these forms of LCD flicker.
OLED still has flickers even though the backplane is not PWM based.

The light of OLED is emitted from doped polymers with electrical bias. So OLED shines when the voltage charges/rises between the layers of polymers.

It is always the little tweaks/things such as the components of voltage control that matter. It is one of the hardest things to do. There must have oscillation happening, too organic to tame or it doesn't have involuntary/general PWM behavior in a short period enough to cause eye strain.

Check the OLED ad about flickers



In reality, ironically people did the test. See what happens



The difference is that the ad shows only a minimum of 45° shutter angle at 50fps which is equal to only 1/400 shutter speed not enough to capture the OLED.
When the shutter speed goes to 1/3200 or 1/6400, the OLED still has flickers, enough to cause eye strain even if the brightness is just low. You can imagine how serious it is when OLED brightness gets a bit higher.

Even with all kinds of different mentioned flickers happening, a good LCD doesn't flicker that much.
Though the PWM miniLED monitors at 200kHz-400kHz aren't as ideal as DC dimming monitors at the same high brightness, they won't cause that kind of eye strain the OLED does.

I haven't seen an OLED that doesn't flicker. The manufacturer better makes one so I can test if it is truly flicker-free. Then, we can talk about brightness.
 
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Chief Blur Buster

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I haven't seen an OLED that doesn't flicker. The manufacturer better makes one so I can test if it is truly flicker-free. Then, we can talk about brightness.
Correct -- they are all valid points. That being said, both LCD and OLED have some deviation from perfect steady state (to varying extents).

Engineering solutions that will keep both of technologies in the ball game for years!

Another benefit is that the higher Hz you go, the flicker becomes even less noticeable. There's less time for pixels to decay (e.g. charge decay on the thin film transistor or capacitor holding the pixel) if the pixels are refreshed more often.

With only 1/240sec = ~4ms between refresh cycle pulses instead of 16ms, there's less work for a transistor/capacitor to hold the pixel longer, helping keep light modulation effect to a minimum. In addition, higher-frequency flicker is harder to see. Especially if the flicker is ultra-faint sub-millisecond that is now even-smaller % change in nits thanks to less pixel charge decay. In other words, OLED is improving too, not just LCD.

What I've seen of upcoming 240Hz OLEDs are they are even better in mitigating OLED flicker than many. They were exhibited already as prototypes at some venues, including DisplayWeek and others.

Neither OLED nor LCD is perfect. Sometimes the OLED benefits (for some people) reduce eyestrain for some people who are sensitive to certain LCD issues, and vice-versa. Not everyone is bothered by the same thing (some have more eyestrain from ghosting or motion blur than from subtle flicker, as one of the many examples). People who have eyestrain from blur have often come to Blur Busters to research solutions from time to time, and sometimes OLED fits them to a tee.

It's also been a separate issues with FALD too. FALD backlights often also have a high-frequency PWM component in them too, to allow ultra-precise brightness variations, and often the capacitors behind each pixel isn't big enough to keep pixels from having zero light modulations. It is kept at multiple KHz to keep this invisible, but I still see it in dim scenes (some people can see FALD PWM to beyond >2000 KHz). Engineering solutions improve this too, though.

Displays are, alas, imperfect windows that synthetically generate an image, and they have lots of problems regardless of technology -- DLP, laser, CRT, LCD, OLED, etc.

Still, OLED and LCD are far more sample-and-hold than most display technology, despite some of the slight temporal variations they both have, and those tiny temporal variations will continue to decrease more and more over time.
 
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kramnelis

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Correct -- they are all valid points. That being said, both LCD and OLED have some deviation from perfect steady state (to varying extents).

What I've seen of upcoming 240Hz OLEDs are they are even better in mitigating OLED flicker than many. They were exhibited already as prototypes at some venues, including DisplayWeek and others.
It depends on how much a level of deviations and how many improvements these panels have over time.

At 240Hz refresh rate, OLED only has a retaliative better 240Hz flicker than the 175Hz flicker but not that much at all. PWM miniLED has at least 300kHz flicker closer to DC dimming. It's a different level.
People can use an average brightness of 500+nits FALD DC dimming LCD all the time doing everything but cannot use an OLED for over 30 minutes without eye strain even if the average brightness is below 200nits. I don't expect 240Hz OLED can do a lot better in terms of flickering nor in HDR other than being a bit faster.

In the end, these deviations at different levels make huge impacts on how these monitors are used/purposed.
 

Chief Blur Buster

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It depends on how much a level of deviations and how many improvements these panels have over time.

At 240Hz refresh rate, OLED only has a retaliative better 240Hz flicker than the 175Hz flicker but not that much at all. PWM miniLED has at least 300kHz flicker closer to DC dimming. It's a different level.
(1) You're about two orders of magnitude off.
The frequency of flicker on FALD varies quite a lot, from under 2 KHz to well over 20 KHz. Phantom array effects are still possible from these at some brightness levels.

(2) Remember *both* the frequency *and* the intensity (% brightness deviation) of the flicker falls concurrently.

People can use an average brightness of 500+nits FALD DC dimming LCD all the time doing everything but cannot use an OLED for over 30 minutes without eye strain even if the average brightness is below 200nits. I don't expect 240Hz OLED can do a lot better in terms of flickering nor in HDR other than being a bit faster.
While some are definitely flicker-derived, don't forget that a lot of that OLED eyestrain is not always flicker-based, some get eyestrain from all HDR displays, for example. We've also got LCD-based eyestrain because of the different phosphor formulations too.

Also, some people get eyestrain from stutter (the flickering edge effect). Faster GtG amplify stutter, since things stop stuttering at a higher frame rate on OLEDs than on LCDs, due to the LCD GtG softening the visibility of stutter.

That's why 30fps on OLED has more eyestrain than 30fps on LCD. Edges are "flickering" at 30Hz, a worse effect than any of the PWM talk you're doing. But once both are doing permanent 120fps, many peoples' eyestrain disappear.

We saw a big boom of NanoIPS-related eyestrain, for example.

There are over 100 different ergonomic issues from screens -- other than common flicker issues -- regardless of LCD and OLED.

Sometimes raising framerate does not help (correct), but sometimes it does (correct). It just depends on the person. And that's only 1 of 100+ ergonomic issues that displays have, some major, some minor.

We are Blur Busters and we have thousands of people come to us try to diagnose motionblur-derived eyestrain, but it has forked into a gigantic Pandora Box that goes far beyond PWM, unfortunately.

Pigeonholing to just flicker misses the forest for the trees, alas, even if it's a major tree. We have to acknowledge all ergonomic issues, not just blue light, not just flicker.
 

Chief Blur Buster

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Why does NanoIPS give eyestrain?
Not everyone gets eyestrain from it. The very slightly different color primaries from different phosphor curves, seem to bother people more than others (e.g. the shape of the blue curve that isn't filterable by software-based low blue light filters). Different SDR and HDR phosphors seem to affect people differently. We had a surge of people (~single digit %) complain of more strain when they upgraded from Fast TN to Fast NanoIPS, as one example.

Some got eyestrain as soon as they upgraded from CCFL to LED backlights.
But even differences between the phosphors used in LED backlights can affect people.

As one example, search the eyestrain threads on Blur Busters Forums. There's quite a few if you search word "eyestrain" or "nausea" on Blur Busters Forums. Eyestrain not fixed by PWM-free backlights or low blue light modes.

People need to stop funneling ALL eyestrain parrotting through solely flicker. That classic exists, but it's not the only cause. Correlation is not causation -- many things traced to OLED eyestrain was confirmed not to be from the flicker for about half of the people analyzed. But many scapegoat solely towards flicker and blue light. Armchair expertery, indeed, my shiny metal [BLEEP] </futurama>

Real life is an spectrum of infinite wavelengths. The human color gamut (CIE 1931) is not a perfect triangle. And displays funnel things through an artificial 3-color-primaries system, imperfected by things like flicker (from all causes, major an minor), motionblur, stutter, tearing, phantom arrays, antiglare film texture, eyeglasses prescription differences, brightness strain, dimness strain, sudden brightness changes, epileptic flashes conditions, viewing angle, prone to motionsickness conditions, focal plane discomfort, size/FOV discomfort, eye movement strain, reflections, screendoor, vertigo-sync issues, blue light, (minor/major) strain from color blindness (12% of population), etc, etc, so many other ergonomic issues (100+).

Nobody sees alike, and nobody eyestrains/nauseas/headaches alike.

TL;DR: Displays are tough!
 
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kramnelis

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(1) You're about two orders of magnitude off.
The frequency of flicker on FALD varies quite a lot, from under 2 KHz to well over 20 KHz. Phantom array effects are still possible from these at some brightness levels.

(2) Remember *both* the frequency *and* the intensity (% brightness deviation) of the flicker falls concurrently.

We saw a big boom of NanoIPS-related eyestrain, for example.

Only the cheap solutions from LG or Samsung can cause the backlight to drop down to 2KHz. The premium backlight is the DC dimming or at least 300KHz well above 240Hz refresh rate.

When talking about the cheap ones, of course, they will have all kinds of issues just like the mentioned NanoIPS flickers close to 1kHz under certain brightness thanks to LG's inferior tweak. Have you seen the flickers on the AUO IPS panels on the premium BenQ Mobiuz or on ASUS PG?

There are all kinds of eyestrain. But if there is a flicker, go and fix it. Don't ignore it or hide it. Then fix another one.
 
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