JohnnyFlash
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Amazon has it on sale for 20% off right now, I might give it a second go and hope for a better outcome on the eye fatigue.
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The 32 inch 4k IPS 144hz's...(Update - this party is started) (wait for it...)
- Thread starter DarkSideA8
- Start date
US?
On German Amazon it's actually got more expensive by 40 €, costing now 1.170€.
Unless you want wait for the new BOA Panels:
https://tftcentral.co.uk/news/boe-latest-panel-development-plans-july-2022
31.5″ panel with 3840 x 2160 4K resolution and 240Hz refresh rate. This one would have 4608 dimming zones apparently (number of LED’s not listed but expected to be 18,432 like the panel above), and is planned for a possible Q4 2022 production start although it feels like this might well slip given the date for the 60Hz panel above.
I dont think that there is currently anything better on the market and reasonably priced. Also I've been running it at 40 Brightness all the time and didnt experience any eye problems so far.
On German Amazon it's actually got more expensive by 40 €, costing now 1.170€.
Unless you want wait for the new BOA Panels:
https://tftcentral.co.uk/news/boe-latest-panel-development-plans-july-2022
31.5″ panel with 3840 x 2160 4K resolution and 240Hz refresh rate. This one would have 4608 dimming zones apparently (number of LED’s not listed but expected to be 18,432 like the panel above), and is planned for a possible Q4 2022 production start although it feels like this might well slip given the date for the 60Hz panel above.
I dont think that there is currently anything better on the market and reasonably priced. Also I've been running it at 40 Brightness all the time and didnt experience any eye problems so far.
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JohnnyFlash
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Canada.
Ya, if you can work above the 30 brightness there should be no issues. Glad you're enjoying it, I miss it for gaming badly. You can't go back to 75hz.
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MistaSparkul
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Canada.
Ya, if you can work above the 30 brightness there should be no issues. Glad you're enjoying it, I miss it for gaming badly. You can't go back to 75hz.
https://pcmonitors.info/samsung/samsung-odyssey-g7-s32bg70-144hz-4k-ips-with-hdmi-2-1/
You can give this one a try. Gigabyte M32U uses an Innolux panel, Asus PG32UQ uses an AUO panel, LG 32GQ950 is using an LG panel, while this Samsung is using a BOE panel so who knows either this will be what you are looking for, or it's just gonna be mediocore like the rest of them.
JohnnyFlash
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Ya, looking at that one as well the Alienware 27 280Hz that's coming. I think I might be spoiled on the polarizer though, we'll have to see.
The PG32UQXE is nowhere to be seen either, which makes me think they weren't able to address the issues.
ASUS and massively delayed display releases is a pretty iconic duo though so it might not be an indicator of anything. I fully expect they will just push it to next year.
I really hope next year we would get at least one 32" 4K high refresh rate panel with good HDR and no major issues.
JohnnyFlash
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Very true, so there is still hope.
Response times on the x32 FP are the creamiest of hot garbage though, so tempered hope at best.
60% of $1100 is $650, for an 80in^2 backlight. 32" 4k displays are about 440 in^2. Assuming cost scales linearly with area that's a $3600 55k led backlight; given the much lower sales volumes probably several times that to recoup R&D costs. EZIO or NEC might be interested for their top end pro displays, but it won't be for us.
kramnelis
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Not true.
A FALD LCD has a deep level of black. FALD was implemented to deal with contrast. The contrast is boosted to 1million:1 instead of 1,000:1. The EOTF of a FALD IPS is often tweaked blacker than an OLED under 2.5 nits. The movie lowlight is often a bit blacker on FALD IPS than on OLED. And you have to think how much more highlight a FALD LCD can deliver with a 1million:1 contrast backlight and a high color volume panel. There are bigger issues from OLED ABL, OLED flickering, OLED low brightness, cheap low-frequency backlight flickering as well as edge-lit blobbing without FALD.
You see a lot of fast images of eSport games on TN or OLED. You should've seen what good images looks like on Rainbow Six at 4K HDR on a completely different cinematic level.
I'm very familiar with the dictatorship of eSport low-quality images for the pinnacle performance of response time as well as input lag. But not everybody sweats 24/7 on eSports monitors just to win a game. We are talking about 4K 144Hz monitors. The image quality is the priority with over 8 million pixels. And a FALD IPS can give a much better brightness level, contrast ratio, and color volume.
Chief Blur Buster
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Yes, the prototype 500,000-MiniLED FALD's that I've seen are amazing. No blooming! Could be a few years before they hit the market.
But spend only 3 figures on LCD and they... suck.
Don't get me wrong, LCD's are my specialty, and that's what I am paid to work on.
They can be great, but it's still a lot of turd-polishing behind the scenes.
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kramnelis
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They said the products especially the high-end are all about tweaks based on the same or on a similar hardware level.
There is no product to cover everything. The hardest thing to make has the highest price.
A bright colorful panel looks the best. But is still slower. When it is tweaked a little fast in response time, it might look reddish.
As a result, you can always choose two monitors with a fast panel and a colorful panel but definitely not a cheap one with an expectation it will be enough.
Chief Blur Buster
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Nontheless, I admit am a huge fan of high-Hz OLED now. Due to GtG being very near 0, they have roughly an approximate 1.5x advantage in motion blur for the same sample-and-hold refresh rate, without adding strobing.
In other words, a 240Hz OLED is about as clear-motion as a 360Hz LCD due to GtG. OLEDs and direct-view MicroLED arrays generate almost purely MPRT-only motion blur, with zero GtG contribution.
There's minor differences; the worst 360Hz IPS will be slightly blurrier motion than 240Hz OLED and the fastest 360Hz E-TN (e.g. XL2566K) will be slightly clearer motion than 240Hz OLED. This comparision, of course, assumes framerate=Hz, for milking maximal clarity of the said display.
Remember, there's a lot of motion blur even at instant GtG=0, due to non-zero MPRT. Persistence motion blur is throttled to never being less than MAX(frametime,refreshtime) on a sample-and-hold display, and that even assumes GtG=0ms perfectly. Any nonzero GtG is additive blurs/ghosts.
LCD will stay viable well past this decade though, there are some major GtG speedups waiting in the wings as the decade progresses.
Due to Talbot-Plateau's Theorem, strobed MPRTs is vastly superior on LCDs than OLEDs, because of the ability to outsource the light source, and surge-pulse a heatsinked LED array much more brightly than OLED can.
This is clearly illustrated in the best crosstalkless LCDs, like the Valve Index VR, the Oculus Quest 2 VR, the ViewSonic XG2431 (with 3:1 Hz headroom + QFT + Strobe Utility), and with low-Hz (~100Hz) on XL2566K, since refresh rate headroom allows LCD GtG to be hidden in dark between refresh cycle scanouts, and long dark VBIs. These recent displays now produce crosstalkless sub-millisecond MPRTs and are among the few LCDs to become clearer-motion than a CRT tube, and can remain sufficiently usable (>100nits) thanks to LED voltage-boosting strobes.
However, OLED produces superior sample-and-hold thanks to it reaching darn near theoretically lowest possible blur per Hz -- so they are very friendly to brute-framerate-based motion blur reduction (low persistence sample and hold) currently produce superior results on OLED. Ergonomic flicker-free PWM-free strobe-free blur reduction, via sheer brute frame rate (and Hz) is more efficient on OLED. Since you can keep illuminating the pixels as long as you need (this keeps limited OLED brightness high, no brightness loss from strobing). And persistence stays low due to ultrasmall refreshtimes (1000fps 1000Hz = 1ms persistence blur without strobing!). Ultimately, Blur Busters' long term holy grail is strobeless ULMB, low persistence via flickerfree method, since real life does not strobe.
Unfortunately, it's a long journey before strobing/flicker becomes obsolete. To match 0.3ms MPRT(0%->100%) of the best strobed displays, you need 3333fps 3333Hz flickerless sample-and-hold (1000 / 0.3 = 3333). Fortunately, there's ways for GPUs to eventually get there. It is possible via reprojection technology (recently demo'd in non-VR -- 10:1 ratio frame rate amplification. If UE5 adds this support, 4K 1000fps 1000Hz UE5 should already be possible on an RTX 4090 since reprojection is more GPU memory bandwidth bottlenecked. I was able to convert 30fps to 280fps on a mobile RTX 2080 on a Razer Blade 15 with only 10-20% GPU. This technology is little known outside virtual reality, but makes possible gigantic amounts of strobeless motion blur reduction)
They will keep leapfrogging line-item benefits over each other for a long time, though!
In other words, a 240Hz OLED is about as clear-motion as a 360Hz LCD due to GtG. OLEDs and direct-view MicroLED arrays generate almost purely MPRT-only motion blur, with zero GtG contribution.
There's minor differences; the worst 360Hz IPS will be slightly blurrier motion than 240Hz OLED and the fastest 360Hz E-TN (e.g. XL2566K) will be slightly clearer motion than 240Hz OLED. This comparision, of course, assumes framerate=Hz, for milking maximal clarity of the said display.
Remember, there's a lot of motion blur even at instant GtG=0, due to non-zero MPRT. Persistence motion blur is throttled to never being less than MAX(frametime,refreshtime) on a sample-and-hold display, and that even assumes GtG=0ms perfectly. Any nonzero GtG is additive blurs/ghosts.
LCD will stay viable well past this decade though, there are some major GtG speedups waiting in the wings as the decade progresses.
Due to Talbot-Plateau's Theorem, strobed MPRTs is vastly superior on LCDs than OLEDs, because of the ability to outsource the light source, and surge-pulse a heatsinked LED array much more brightly than OLED can.
This is clearly illustrated in the best crosstalkless LCDs, like the Valve Index VR, the Oculus Quest 2 VR, the ViewSonic XG2431 (with 3:1 Hz headroom + QFT + Strobe Utility), and with low-Hz (~100Hz) on XL2566K, since refresh rate headroom allows LCD GtG to be hidden in dark between refresh cycle scanouts, and long dark VBIs. These recent displays now produce crosstalkless sub-millisecond MPRTs and are among the few LCDs to become clearer-motion than a CRT tube, and can remain sufficiently usable (>100nits) thanks to LED voltage-boosting strobes.
However, OLED produces superior sample-and-hold thanks to it reaching darn near theoretically lowest possible blur per Hz -- so they are very friendly to brute-framerate-based motion blur reduction (low persistence sample and hold) currently produce superior results on OLED. Ergonomic flicker-free PWM-free strobe-free blur reduction, via sheer brute frame rate (and Hz) is more efficient on OLED. Since you can keep illuminating the pixels as long as you need (this keeps limited OLED brightness high, no brightness loss from strobing). And persistence stays low due to ultrasmall refreshtimes (1000fps 1000Hz = 1ms persistence blur without strobing!). Ultimately, Blur Busters' long term holy grail is strobeless ULMB, low persistence via flickerfree method, since real life does not strobe.
Unfortunately, it's a long journey before strobing/flicker becomes obsolete. To match 0.3ms MPRT(0%->100%) of the best strobed displays, you need 3333fps 3333Hz flickerless sample-and-hold (1000 / 0.3 = 3333). Fortunately, there's ways for GPUs to eventually get there. It is possible via reprojection technology (recently demo'd in non-VR -- 10:1 ratio frame rate amplification. If UE5 adds this support, 4K 1000fps 1000Hz UE5 should already be possible on an RTX 4090 since reprojection is more GPU memory bandwidth bottlenecked. I was able to convert 30fps to 280fps on a mobile RTX 2080 on a Razer Blade 15 with only 10-20% GPU. This technology is little known outside virtual reality, but makes possible gigantic amounts of strobeless motion blur reduction)
They will keep leapfrogging line-item benefits over each other for a long time, though!
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kramnelis
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The manufacturers might know this very well. They might just keep the LCD refresh rate 1.5x higher than OLED. It also has more benefits to input lag. OLED is only good in response time and that's pretty much all.
Speaking of the downside of OLED, there is a short term of black insertion at the start of every frame causing flickering that gives eye strain. Nobody solves the flickering because this is the fundamental property of OLED. It is directly caused by the operating mechanism of OLED.
The people who play games competitively 24/7 turn the monitor brightness to the high or to the max to have better visibility. People cannot do that with OLED. It gives eye strain at even very low brightness. They will know how painful OLED causes to the eyes. This kind of flickering is different than the controlled strobe.
It also doesn't have a good dynamic range of HDR due to limited color space and ABL. So no good HDR images come out OLED despite of relatively short lifespan.
The prediction is that OLED is going to be as much as a mid-tier SDR short-session casual gaming monitor. The real HDR monitor is the FALD LCD with a DC backlight. The eSport monitor is still the LCD with higher HZ and lower input lag until the OLED flickering is solved. I doubt anyone can solve it.
Speaking of the downside of OLED, there is a short term of black insertion at the start of every frame causing flickering that gives eye strain. Nobody solves the flickering because this is the fundamental property of OLED. It is directly caused by the operating mechanism of OLED.
The people who play games competitively 24/7 turn the monitor brightness to the high or to the max to have better visibility. People cannot do that with OLED. It gives eye strain at even very low brightness. They will know how painful OLED causes to the eyes. This kind of flickering is different than the controlled strobe.
It also doesn't have a good dynamic range of HDR due to limited color space and ABL. So no good HDR images come out OLED despite of relatively short lifespan.
The prediction is that OLED is going to be as much as a mid-tier SDR short-session casual gaming monitor. The real HDR monitor is the FALD LCD with a DC backlight. The eSport monitor is still the LCD with higher HZ and lower input lag until the OLED flickering is solved. I doubt anyone can solve it.
Chief Blur Buster
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Depends on the OLED backplane and how it is designed. I've seen it go either way.
Some OLED backplanes are PWM-based, and other OLED backplanes aren't. There is a latching transistor in some OLED backplanes (multiple transistors per pixel).
In some cases the flicker of the best OLEDs is much less than some of the worst LCD voltage inversion electronics -- or LCD VRR flicker behavior -- or LCD FRC behavior. These aren't backlight-based behavior creating these forms of LCD flicker.
Some of the faster GtG responses creates more inversion-artifact flicker (combined with chessboard artifacts in solid colors), because all LCDs require both spatial and temporal voltage polarity alternating (+/-) aka voltage inversion. This is needed to prevent liquid crystals from getting statically charged over time (aka image retention). It's very difficult to produce exact negative voltages symmetric to the exact positive voltage, for the very exact same 10-bit shade, while maintaining ultra-fast pixel response. If you've ever seen scrolling lines or scrolling chessboards on certain gaming panels -- this is it. There's sometimes a design-choice of opposed tradeoffs between pixel response and artifacts from the voltage inversion logic. There are many algorithms to prevent flicker from voltage inversion, which is needed in all LCD panels. Some people get eyestrain from this too.
You can see the high speed videos in the Scanout article on Blur Busters -- I have a high speed video of an OLED there too as well. On one of them, the OLED flicker is extremely subtle (a single ultra-tiny brightness fluctuation of less than one millisecond between steady-state light-output for the remainder of the refresh cycles).
You cannot say generalities that apply to all OLED backplanes, nor all LCD backplanes.
The way electronics drive the pixels can be quite different -- including the number of transistors driving a pixel as the motherglass is simply a large integrated circuit board that doubles as a screen, and the circuits on the glass bezels, and behind each pixel can be quite different. A massive circuit (active matrix) is lithographed on the glass, and the circuit can be designed differently, e.g. Darlington transistor arrangement, or a latching transistor, etc.
Also, a second cause of LCD flicker other than LCD voltage inversion - is that brightness fluctuations found in some VRR panels -- where low frame rates have a slightly different dynamic range than high frame rates, creating visible flicker during sudden framerate fluctuations. There's a GtG decay effect where after the refresh pulse setting the molecular rotation of the liquid crystals -- the charge can decay and the pixel decays back to its rest state (e.g. white or black). A longer refresh interval (e.g. 1/30sec) versus a short refresh interval (e.g. 1/240sec) can have a light oscillating effect as the pixels are repeatedly pulsed (refresh pass) with variable intervals between refresh cycles.
Now, a third type of LCD flicker is the FRC algorithm, where FRC adds extra bit depth to an 6-bit (to create 8-bit) or 8-bit panel (to create 10-bit). It's essentially just a form of temporal dithering, but some people are unusually sensitive to this, while others are not.
Now, you've got unexpected interactions between 2 or 3 of these (voltage inversion algorithm, combined with FRC algorithm, combined with variable refresh rate), which can amplify flicker accidentally on certain panels.
And none of these are backlight-related!
In other words, even good fast-response LCD can flicker more than certain OLEDs -- depends on the panel, the active matrix design, how its pixels are driven, what mode it is driven in, etc.
There are OLED backplane designs that are virtually lagless (e.g. line-based refresh). At least if you don't enable HDR. You have the issue where some HDR modes needs a find-brightest-pixel algorithm for one reason or another (whether for dynamic picture levelling, or for syncing a FALD to the LCD scanout), and requires a full-framebuffering either for LCD or OLED, for processing, pre-empting ability to have subrefresh latency whenever HDR is enabled. There are ways around this for both technologies, but they are very different.
Current esports LCDs are fantastically fast since they keep processing low, and processing line-based -- synchronzing cable scanout to panel scanout -- allowing subrefresh latency for GPU-to-photons, on a pixel-for-pixel basis, just like a CRT. But there are also algorithms to enable OLED to achieve this, in the near term. OLED definitely is playing catchup here, given more lag, but digital LCD also used to have an awful amount of lag too until the innovation of rolling-scanlines-window processing algorithms that permitted subrefresh latency.
Either way, but both LCD and OLED are way more sample-and-hold than eye-searing flicker from CRT / Plasma, and much less than DLP temporal dithering.
And there are already solutions to both LCD and OLED flicker too. They're just very different engineering problems to deal with.
Source: I do paid work on contract for display manufacturers.
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kramnelis
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OLED still has flickers even though the backplane is not PWM based.
The light of OLED is emitted from doped polymers with electrical bias. So OLED shines when the voltage charges/rises between the layers of polymers.
It is always the little tweaks/things such as the components of voltage control that matter. It is one of the hardest things to do. There must have oscillation happening, too organic to tame or it doesn't have involuntary/general PWM behavior in a short period enough to cause eye strain.
Check the OLED ad about flickers
In reality, ironically people did the test. See what happens
The difference is that the ad shows only a minimum of 45° shutter angle at 50fps which is equal to only 1/400 shutter speed not enough to capture the OLED.
When the shutter speed goes to 1/3200 or 1/6400, the OLED still has flickers, enough to cause eye strain even if the brightness is just low. You can imagine how serious it is when OLED brightness gets a bit higher.
Even with all kinds of different mentioned flickers happening, a good LCD doesn't flicker that much.
Though the PWM miniLED monitors at 200kHz-400kHz aren't as ideal as DC dimming monitors at the same high brightness, they won't cause that kind of eye strain the OLED does.
I haven't seen an OLED that doesn't flicker. The manufacturer better makes one so I can test if it is truly flicker-free. Then, we can talk about brightness.
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Chief Blur Buster
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Correct -- they are all valid points. That being said, both LCD and OLED have some deviation from perfect steady state (to varying extents).
Engineering solutions that will keep both of technologies in the ball game for years!
Another benefit is that the higher Hz you go, the flicker becomes even less noticeable. There's less time for pixels to decay (e.g. charge decay on the thin film transistor or capacitor holding the pixel) if the pixels are refreshed more often.
With only 1/240sec = ~4ms between refresh cycle pulses instead of 16ms, there's less work for a transistor/capacitor to hold the pixel longer, helping keep light modulation effect to a minimum. In addition, higher-frequency flicker is harder to see. Especially if the flicker is ultra-faint sub-millisecond that is now even-smaller % change in nits thanks to less pixel charge decay. In other words, OLED is improving too, not just LCD.
What I've seen of upcoming 240Hz OLEDs are they are even better in mitigating OLED flicker than many. They were exhibited already as prototypes at some venues, including DisplayWeek and others.
Neither OLED nor LCD is perfect. Sometimes the OLED benefits (for some people) reduce eyestrain for some people who are sensitive to certain LCD issues, and vice-versa. Not everyone is bothered by the same thing (some have more eyestrain from ghosting or motion blur than from subtle flicker, as one of the many examples). People who have eyestrain from blur have often come to Blur Busters to research solutions from time to time, and sometimes OLED fits them to a tee.
It's also been a separate issues with FALD too. FALD backlights often also have a high-frequency PWM component in them too, to allow ultra-precise brightness variations, and often the capacitors behind each pixel isn't big enough to keep pixels from having zero light modulations. It is kept at multiple KHz to keep this invisible, but I still see it in dim scenes (some people can see FALD PWM to beyond >2000 KHz). Engineering solutions improve this too, though.
Displays are, alas, imperfect windows that synthetically generate an image, and they have lots of problems regardless of technology -- DLP, laser, CRT, LCD, OLED, etc.
Still, OLED and LCD are far more sample-and-hold than most display technology, despite some of the slight temporal variations they both have, and those tiny temporal variations will continue to decrease more and more over time.
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kramnelis
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It depends on how much a level of deviations and how many improvements these panels have over time.
At 240Hz refresh rate, OLED only has a retaliative better 240Hz flicker than the 175Hz flicker but not that much at all. PWM miniLED has at least 300kHz flicker closer to DC dimming. It's a different level.
People can use an average brightness of 500+nits FALD DC dimming LCD all the time doing everything but cannot use an OLED for over 30 minutes without eye strain even if the average brightness is below 200nits. I don't expect 240Hz OLED can do a lot better in terms of flickering nor in HDR other than being a bit faster.
In the end, these deviations at different levels make huge impacts on how these monitors are used/purposed.
Chief Blur Buster
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(1) You're about two orders of magnitude off.
The frequency of flicker on FALD varies quite a lot, from under 2 KHz to well over 20 KHz. Phantom array effects are still possible from these at some brightness levels.
(2) Remember *both* the frequency *and* the intensity (% brightness deviation) of the flicker falls concurrently.
While some are definitely flicker-derived, don't forget that a lot of that OLED eyestrain is not always flicker-based, some get eyestrain from all HDR displays, for example. We've also got LCD-based eyestrain because of the different phosphor formulations too.
Also, some people get eyestrain from stutter (the flickering edge effect). Faster GtG amplify stutter, since things stop stuttering at a higher frame rate on OLEDs than on LCDs, due to the LCD GtG softening the visibility of stutter.
That's why 30fps on OLED has more eyestrain than 30fps on LCD. Edges are "flickering" at 30Hz, a worse effect than any of the PWM talk you're doing. But once both are doing permanent 120fps, many peoples' eyestrain disappear.
We saw a big boom of NanoIPS-related eyestrain, for example.
There are over 100 different ergonomic issues from screens -- other than common flicker issues -- regardless of LCD and OLED.
Sometimes raising framerate does not help (correct), but sometimes it does (correct). It just depends on the person. And that's only 1 of 100+ ergonomic issues that displays have, some major, some minor.
We are Blur Busters and we have thousands of people come to us try to diagnose motionblur-derived eyestrain, but it has forked into a gigantic Pandora Box that goes far beyond PWM, unfortunately.
Pigeonholing to just flicker misses the forest for the trees, alas, even if it's a major tree. We have to acknowledge all ergonomic issues, not just blue light, not just flicker.
Chief Blur Buster
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Not everyone gets eyestrain from it. The very slightly different color primaries from different phosphor curves, seem to bother people more than others (e.g. the shape of the blue curve that isn't filterable by software-based low blue light filters). Different SDR and HDR phosphors seem to affect people differently. We had a surge of people (~single digit %) complain of more strain when they upgraded from Fast TN to Fast NanoIPS, as one example.
Some got eyestrain as soon as they upgraded from CCFL to LED backlights.
But even differences between the phosphors used in LED backlights can affect people.
As one example, search the eyestrain threads on Blur Busters Forums. There's quite a few if you search word "eyestrain" or "nausea" on Blur Busters Forums. Eyestrain not fixed by PWM-free backlights or low blue light modes.
People need to stop funneling ALL eyestrain parrotting through solely flicker. That classic exists, but it's not the only cause. Correlation is not causation -- many things traced to OLED eyestrain was confirmed not to be from the flicker for about half of the people analyzed. But many scapegoat solely towards flicker and blue light. Armchair expertery, indeed, my shiny metal [BLEEP] </futurama>
Real life is an spectrum of infinite wavelengths. The human color gamut (CIE 1931) is not a perfect triangle. And displays funnel things through an artificial 3-color-primaries system, imperfected by things like flicker (from all causes, major an minor), motionblur, stutter, tearing, phantom arrays, antiglare film texture, eyeglasses prescription differences, brightness strain, dimness strain, sudden brightness changes, epileptic flashes conditions, viewing angle, prone to motionsickness conditions, focal plane discomfort, size/FOV discomfort, eye movement strain, reflections, screendoor, vertigo-sync issues, blue light, (minor/major) strain from color blindness (12% of population), etc, etc, so many other ergonomic issues (100+).
Nobody sees alike, and nobody eyestrains/nauseas/headaches alike.
TL;DR: Displays are tough!
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kramnelis
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Only the cheap solutions from LG or Samsung can cause the backlight to drop down to 2KHz. The premium backlight is the DC dimming or at least 300KHz well above 240Hz refresh rate.
When talking about the cheap ones, of course, they will have all kinds of issues just like the mentioned NanoIPS flickers close to 1kHz under certain brightness thanks to LG's inferior tweak. Have you seen the flickers on the AUO IPS panels on the premium BenQ Mobiuz or on ASUS PG?
There are all kinds of eyestrain. But if there is a flicker, go and fix it. Don't ignore it or hide it. Then fix another one.
I've read the entire thread and still don't know what to buy as of December 2022.
First of all, is 4K usable on 32" with no upscalling? Currently I'm using a 25" 2K monitor at 100%, how small is compared to that? Can someone post a picture with 1:1 scaling?
As for advice, I would like a gaming monitor also for productivity, graphic work so I would go for ips. I need srgb mode but to be able to control brightness and other settings like contrast or rgb, not to be everything locked in srgb mode. Also minimal backlight bleed, good contrast, and so on as much as ips can do. Also to be able to use it with a console will be nice, with hdmi 2.1 40/48Gbs.
I would incline on a non-LG panel since I read that their Nano ips cause eye strain, but also about auo I've read that they have issue with stuck subpixels, that star light effect.
First of all, is 4K usable on 32" with no upscalling? Currently I'm using a 25" 2K monitor at 100%, how small is compared to that? Can someone post a picture with 1:1 scaling?
As for advice, I would like a gaming monitor also for productivity, graphic work so I would go for ips. I need srgb mode but to be able to control brightness and other settings like contrast or rgb, not to be everything locked in srgb mode. Also minimal backlight bleed, good contrast, and so on as much as ips can do. Also to be able to use it with a console will be nice, with hdmi 2.1 40/48Gbs.
I would incline on a non-LG panel since I read that their Nano ips cause eye strain, but also about auo I've read that they have issue with stuck subpixels, that star light effect.
4k @ 32 is 140 DPI.
Assuming by 2k you mean 2560x1440 (which is closer to 3k than 2k, but I digress) not 2048xx1152, your current display is 118 DPI.
I tried running my 32" at native DPI for about a day, but found it just borderline too small. Normal text was readable, but only just; any time I ran into smaller than normal font sizes i found myself zooming out. YMMV here, but I haven't seen many people say that they could use a 32: 4k screen comfortably at 1:1.
You can try to simulate it in your browser (or anything else with a good zoom feature): assuming you're currently at 100%, shrink to 85% zoom. You'll have text at the same size as the 4k at native resolution. It's not a perfect simulation because the actual screen's higher DPI will make it marginally sharper; but is going to be reasonably closer.
Alternately you could shove your screen back an equivalent amount and simulate shrinking everything.
Not really. 125% is the minimal option here. But it's not any sort of an issue really.
The choice hasn't really changed much since late 2021.
You're either looking at AUO panel which is slower but has considerably higher color gamut (Asus and MSI options - if you'll be able to find them, they seem to be EOL).
Or at Innolux panel which is faster but has considerably lower color gamut (Gigabyte and Dell mostly).
The only (?) new addition is the LG panel used for 32GQ950-B.
There are also Samsung VAs but they are heavily curved and thus not really suited for any production work.
The choice is a bit better in 27-28" sizes so you may want to look at these.
I have the Neo G7, unless your productivity work is programming I pretty much agree. I wouldn't do any graphic design or CAD on this monitor. The text clarity is excellent though so if you're just programming it's top notch. I work in Unity mostly, it's great for that. I have a separate 27 inch ips I use for Photoshop and illustrator
I've read people complaining on 27"/28"@4K with 150% scalling that applications like visual studio or from Adobe suite not scalling the UI properly and I use this kind of applications.
I'm not into curved since working with straight lines I would go for a flat screen.
As my list of monitor I have the following:
- 32GQ950 but has a fan and pwm, also controls locked in srgb mode
- M32U/FI32U but problems with uniformity and backlight bleed, also controls locked in srgb.
- MPG321UR-QD problems with lots of overshoot and overdrive mode.
- PG32UQ slow panel, issues with overshoot and overdrive
- XG320Q same panel as PG32UQ but worse overdrive
- AOC PD or others have everything locked in srgb mode, even brightness which is awuful being too bright and not so good firmware support.
- G3223Q issues with image retention
- Tempest 32UHD didn't seen any review, don't know knothing about srgb mode or overdrive performance.
So far I was thinking 32GQ950 or M32U, at least I get brightness control in srgb mode, but regarding LG I don't know how much eyestrain can cause or the fan noise, while M32U have worse backlight bleeding and only 24Gbs hdmi 2.1
It's true but it's less of issue with 125%. Adobe seem to use their own UI scaling solution which seem to not have anything between 100 and 200%.
I wouldn't say that there are many issues with OD on these panels.
It's a nice monitor if you can find one without lots of backlight bleed.
HDMI isn't an issue really since you'll be using DP with DSC on PC which is more than enough and HDMI is needed only for consoles basically and with consoles you'll be fine with PS5 (use FRL4 at max IIRC so same 24Gbps) and may run into issues only on XSX which has 40Gbps output.
If an app does not support scaling I think it will be just as problematic at 4K 32". 125 vs 150% scaling would make no difference.
Surprised (and on the other hand not...) to hear Adobe still having issues with this stuff. I don't need to use their crap for work so use Affinity Photo/Designer instead and those work as expected while being massively cheaper and faster.
Personally the only issues I have had with scaling is with installers on Windows (so doesn't matter if they are a bit blurry) and some audio VST plugin UIs not scaling. I use a 28" 4K Samsung G70A display atm. It's the same Innolux panel as the Gigabyte M28U.
Xar
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2000-nits FALD QD-IPS Mini-LED LCD panels are coming from AUO & BOE Q3-Q4 next year. I wish manufacturers will be showing them off this upcoming CES.
Xar
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Monitors tend to come out a few years after these panels were introduced. The only exception I've seen is Samsung Display's QD-OLED which take within a year making it to monitors.
-https://tftcentral.co.uk/news/au-optronics-latest-panel-development-plans-june-2022
-https://tftcentral.co.uk/news/boe-latest-panel-development-plans-july-2022
-https://tftcentral.co.uk/news/lg-display-latest-panel-development-plans-june-2022
-https://www.displayninja.com/mini-led-monitor-list/
-https://www.displayninja.com/best-oled-monitor/
-https://www.displayninja.com/new-monitors/
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Please don't give Displayninja any traffic. They basically are an Amazon click farm site with low effort content stolen from other places.
In any case BOE especially has been promising all kinds of panels for years now in roadmaps yet I don't think I have seen them in any actual product, at least one sold in the west.
DarkSideA8
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It's interesting to see Dan's response. I remember talking about DPI and 4k utility with him back before I bought my Gigabyte Aorus FI32U.
For simi: Back before the upgrade, I was running a 24 inch 16:10 (1920x1200) monitor that I sat about arms length from (over 30 inches; I'm tall). My main complaint was that I could see individual pixels, which bugged me. Also I wanted both a larger monitor and a faster refresh rate. Dan commented on a lot of the threads I read back then - and I find him to be reliable.
That said - my experience with a 4k 32" monitor is very positive. With the 24" I was getting about 94 Pixels Per Square Inch (PPI), but with 4k 32" I'm getting 137 PPI. So that solved the 'seeing pixels' problem; higher pixel density reduced eye strain and other annoyances of seeing 'dots' everywhere. I still sit about the same distance from the monitor. Haven't had any problems with text or other scaling issues (running Win 10 Pro). Website 'zoom' is set to 100. Whether using Word or Excel or doing pretty much anything on the box - I've found the 4k/32 experience to be superior to what I had before. Almost every program I use has some kind of scaling feature. I use it on Word quite often. The real benefit to me with the larger monitor is that I can do two side-by-side windows open (Excel and Word or a website) and don't have to flip back and forth between them; it's like the utility of having multiple monitors in a single screen.
(Caveat - the first day or two, the monitor seemed FREAKING HUGE compared to what I was used to... but now it's quite natural).
The other slice to this is that I'm old; back before the upgrade I was already wearing 'computer glasses' just to be able to see a crisp screen. That hasn't changed. What has changed is that I really like my screen and the choice to upgrade. 4k at 32 seems ideal - at least to me.
If you look at Gigabyte - their 'm' version (https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/gigabyte/m32u) gets good reviews. I know someone who has one and have heard no complaints. Its also cheaper than what I bought.
Interestingly, RTNGS 'best' monitor currently is a 34" QD OLED with 175hz. That's probably a great monitor with a slightly less dense PPI; might be the perfect 4k monitor.
I will settle then for 4K 32" and was looking at M32U, but since I work with graphic I will use it a long period of time in srgb mode. But I read that srgb mode locks overdrive settings in Smart OD mode which is Balanced mode most of the time, but balanced mode I saw that creates a lot of overshoot at low refresh rates under 100Hz when playing games. Is there any firmware update to add a variable overdrive mode? I would like a single overdrive experience.
The other choice would be PG32UQ but everyone says it's slow.
Chief Blur Buster
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While I use 100% DPI on most of my displays, the latest version Visual Studio is fine with DPI scaling nowadays, at least for what I use it for. I suspect the latest verison of the Adobe suite is fine.
The biggest problems crop up when you have multimonitor with different DPI on different displays.
The latest version of Visual Studio is supposed to be multi-monitor DPI aware.
Chief Blur Buster
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Fantastique. Perhaps that's why I haven't noticed DPI scaling problems with VS anymore. Where I connect a Razer 240Hz laptop at 125% DPI to a LG OLED TV or some other random 4K display at 150-175% DPI.
Historically that was a cesspool of problems. That's WHEN a lot of apps historically mess up, but Windows is now almost identical to Mac experience in retina displays now -- app developers have been fixing the DPI problems over the last many years, so fewer and fewer apps I use have DPI problems now.
What is funny is when I drag the window to the other display, the whole UI automatically resizes. And even if the text size is undesirable depending on whether I'm wearing reading glasses, I can still zoom in/out of the source code with the standard zoom key (Ctrl + and -)
Xar
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The gamut coverages and vibrancy of that monitor are excellent though, extremely wide and even surpassed that of PG32UQX and AW3423DW. Black, contrast, matte finish, response time, input lag, black light bleeding, halo, blooming, and poor HDR are what destroyed that monitor.
Honestly having used PG32UQ for almost a year I can safely say that it's not "slow", it's "slower" than Innolux alternative but it is very much adequate for it's refresh rate. The panel otherwise is great, much better than Innolux one in color and a tad worse in contrast - or black level at least.
The issue is that the monitor itself is rather subpar in build and design quality and feels a lot like a budget product in beta testing phase.