Thanks to Lobbying, It's Tougher to Power Your Home with Solar Panels in Florida

[Megalith]

Many Floridians are still stuck without power due to Hurricane Irma, and the ordeal has prompted residents to question the practices of local power monopolies: one company being grilled is Florida Power & Light, which has lobbied hard against letting Floridians power their own homes with solar panels. Power-company rules make it impossible to simply buy a solar panel and power your individual home with it. You are instead legally mandated to connect your panels to your local electric grid.

More egregious, FPL mandates that if the power goes out, your solar-power system must power down along with the rest of the grid, robbing potentially needy people of power during major outages. "Renewable generator systems connected to the grid without batteries are not a standby power source during an FPL outage," the company's solar-connection rules state. "The system must shut down when FPL's grid shuts down in order to prevent dangerous back feed on FPL's grid. This is required to protect FPL employees who may be working on the grid." Astoundingly, state rules also mandate that solar customers include a switch that cleanly disconnects their panels from FPL's system while keeping the rest of a home's power lines connected.

 

[gamerk2]

This is normal across the US; more or less the same here in NY.

And yes, it's STUPID. But that's what an entrenched monopoly will do against progress. Give it 20 years or so, and maybe we'll finally have self-powered homes independent of the main grid.

 

[Elf_Boy]

I can see required grid connects. Excess energy lowering the use of fossil fuels.

Not allowing isolation during an outage is inane.

The panels are still producing electricity. Equipment that can auto isolate and requires human intervention to hook back up can't be hard to make.

 

[LodeRunner]

I guess one thing going for where I live is that the local MUD allows homes to have a revenue grade meter and a grid disconnect that allows the home to run on solar or other generation (with or without battery) during an outage, rather than this insanity of "your home must be grid connected at all times and your generation must hard disconnect/shutdown during a grid outage."

 

[Twisted Kidney]

Oil, gas, and coal are just better for everyone though. They suck more subsidies than renewables, they employ less people than renewables, and they're slowly killing us.

It's a win/win/win.

 

[nysmo]

The only thing I can imagine is that they simply dont trust people to disconnect themselves from the grid so it's not worth having workers getting electrocuted from ignorant solar owners.

 

[Croak]

This is an uninformed story written with a point of view & axe to grind. Every utility has basic interconnect rules for generation - which is what solar is. You can run your solar if you have a positive disconnect from the system - ie a visible, lockable disconnect switch. If not, it is extremely dangerous for the workers. The first thing outside of your house is a transformer, which will step your solar panel voltage up to 13,800 volts. If there are downed lines, you have just energized those lines - without any protective relaying, ground faults, etc that the utility provides on their end. Backfeeds get more workers killed & injured than any form of electrocution.

And you'd trust Florida Man to do the right thing here? (disclaimer, I'm in Florida).

 

[panhead]

government of the corporations, by the corporations, for the corporations...

 

[Gigus Fire]

This is an uninformed story written with a point of view & axe to grind. Every utility has basic interconnect rules for generation - which is what solar is. You can run your solar if you have a positive disconnect from the system - ie a visible, lockable disconnect switch. If not, it is extremely dangerous for the workers. The first thing outside of your house is a transformer, which will step your solar panel voltage up to 13,800 volts. If there are downed lines, you have just energized those lines - without any protective relaying, ground faults, etc that the utility provides on their end. Backfeeds get more workers killed & injured than any form of electrocution.

And you'd trust Florida Man to do the right thing here? (disclaimer, I'm in Florida).

100% agree with this statement. This is normal. The last thing repairmen need to encounter is live wires when their system should be shut down.
This isn't even hard to do, there are automated systems that do exactly this. If you still want to use your solar during power outages, you'd better have a battery system in place such as a tesla powerwall so that even in cases where solar is disconnected from the grid your battery can still power your home for a limited time.

What does this brainiac think will happen when you have solar and there's a power outage? All the solar powered houses will power the entire neighborhood? Lol

 

[Master_shake_]

isn't there a relay system that shuts off main power and switches to solar?

isn't that part of the storage system?

 

[Recidivant]

This is an uninformed story written with a point of view & axe to grind. Every utility has basic interconnect rules for generation - which is what solar is. You can run your solar if you have a positive disconnect from the system - ie a visible, lockable disconnect switch. If not, it is extremely dangerous for the workers. The first thing outside of your house is a transformer, which will step your solar panel voltage up to 13,800 volts. If there are downed lines, you have just energized those lines - without any protective relaying, ground faults, etc that the utility provides on their end. Backfeeds get more workers killed & injured than any form of electrocution.

And you'd trust Florida Man to do the right thing here? (disclaimer, I'm in Florida).

Good info. Thanks for the insight. It would be nice for a solution to be found, since I think solar is the best way to go in general.

 

[NickJames]

100% agree with this statement. This is normal. The last thing repairmen need to encounter is live wires when their system should be shut down.
This isn't even hard to do, there are automated systems that do exactly this. If you still want to use your solar during power outages, you'd better have a battery system in place such as a tesla powerwall so that even in cases where solar is disconnected from the grid your battery can still power your home for a limited time.

What does this brainiac think will happen when you have solar and there's a power outage? All the solar powered houses will power the entire neighborhood? Lol

Except AFAIK FPL wants to make it illegal to be off the grid, so you're forced into a position where damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[naib]

there is a reason why grid off generation is frowned upon and that is due to synchronization and what to do if the grid comes back... the grid naturally self-syncs (the benefit of massive synchronous generators)... you stick an electronic inverter that is out of phase and well ...

 

[Gigus Fire]

Except AFAIK FPL wants to make it illegal to be off the grid, so you're forced into a position where damned if you do, damned if you don't.

You can do both. Government wants you to be on the grid (attached to it). They don't mandate that you use it.

 

[panhead]

This is an uninformed story written with a point of view & axe to grind. Every utility has basic interconnect rules for generation - which is what solar is. You can run your solar if you have a positive disconnect from the system - ie a visible, lockable disconnect switch. If not, it is extremely dangerous for the workers. The first thing outside of your house is a transformer, which will step your solar panel voltage up to 13,800 volts. If there are downed lines, you have just energized those lines - without any protective relaying, ground faults, etc that the utility provides on their end. Backfeeds get more workers killed & injured than any form of electrocution.

And you'd trust Florida Man to do the right thing here? (disclaimer, I'm in Florida).

The only thing I can imagine is that they simply dont trust people to disconnect themselves from the grid so it's not worth having workers getting electrocuted from ignorant solar owners.

So, why not have switches controlled from the power company. In the event of a disconnect due to power line breakage, the home switch disconnects from grid automatically and will on connect back to the grid until a signal is sent to it from the power company. Power companies have been doing this for quite some time.

 

[sfsuphysics]

I can see required grid connects. Excess energy lowering the use of fossil fuels.

Not allowing isolation during an outage is inane.

The panels are still producing electricity. Equipment that can auto isolate and requires human intervention to hook back up can't be hard to make.

Yeah I don't see why they would require grid connects, it's against the law to be off grid completely? Surely there are areas of Florida in the swamps where people aren't hooked up.

But the isolation issue is with the inverter, grid-tie inverters automatically shut off power when they don't sense line current, so this isn't a Florida power company being a dick about things moment. Now if you are inventive you could tie in a switch to switch the panels from the one inverter to another that is off grid. But I also can't see people getting two inverters just for cases like this, but then again I don't live in an area that gets hurricanes regularly multiple times a year. Power generators would work, but most people are too stupid to not have an isolating system in place before firing them up hence energizing the lines (this is Florida we are talking about).

That would be a tough call for me though, perfect place for solar panels, but would I want to risk them getting damaged by flying debris.

 

[Riccochet]

It's pretty simple to continue to power your house with solar and disconnect from the grid. It's called the main breaker in your breaker box. Flip it. Boom. Disconnected from the grid.

You're welcome.

 

[nutzo]

That would be a tough call for me though, perfect place for solar panels, but would I want to risk them getting damaged by flying debris.

On the news, I've already see video of the cleanup in Florida, where they where tossing damaged solar panels in the dumpster.
Guess there are not going to break even on that investment.

 

[Croak]

Except AFAIK FPL wants to make it illegal to be off the grid, so you're forced into a position where damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It's draconian, but it's necessary. When you connect a permanent power source that could backfeed the grid at any time, the power company needs control of it. If you wanted to install a separate panel with 'dedicated' receptacles, that is fine. So long as there's no possibility of both systems being connected. The alternative, a switch you can throw to isolate your system, is feasible, but trusting folks to throw the switch is not.

So, why not have switches controlled from the power company. In the event of a disconnect due to power line breakage, the home switch disconnects from grid automatically and will on connect back to the grid until a signal is sent to it from the power company. Power companies have been doing this for quite some time.

An automated system would be fine in theory, but who pays for it? Hell, who pays to have it even designed and tested to work with the myriad of "off grid" generation solutions out there? Even if there was a proven off-the-shelf universal system (there's not) it's not in the power company's best fiduciary interest to pick up the tab when an enforceable (and sensible) regulation can have the same outcome. Lets not forget, in the cases of a mass outage, WHAT controls the automated disconnect system at every "consumer" generation point? How sure can you be that the system is fault tolerant enough (compared to the existing monitoring and distribution control on the power company lines)?

It's pretty simple to continue to power your house with solar and disconnect from the grid. It's called the main breaker in your breaker box. Flip it. Boom. Disconnected from the grid.

You're welcome.

So, you'd trust the lives of the thousands of linemen who worked around the clock in Florida over this last week to every Florida Man having the good sense to throw a breaker? Now and forever?


I'm a little-l libertarian, I generally hates me some regulation, but sometimes, shit just gotta be.

 

[farscapesg1]

This is an uninformed story written with a point of view & axe to grind. Every utility has basic interconnect rules for generation - which is what solar is. You can run your solar if you have a positive disconnect from the system - ie a visible, lockable disconnect switch. If not, it is extremely dangerous for the workers. The first thing outside of your house is a transformer, which will step your solar panel voltage up to 13,800 volts. If there are downed lines, you have just energized those lines - without any protective relaying, ground faults, etc that the utility provides on their end. Backfeeds get more workers killed & injured than any form of electrocution.

And you'd trust Florida Man to do the right thing here? (disclaimer, I'm in Florida).

I'm not an electrician but why would this be any different than a generator with an automatic transfer switch? Where I work, if we lose grid power, the generator automatically starts up and and the transfer switch moves us over to that power. As soon as power is restored, the transfer switch changes us back over to grid power and shuts down the generator. Why wouldn't this be the default/required configuration for a solar implementation to allow homes to continue to be powered by their solar arrays during a power outage?

 

[Deleted member 93354]

The fact that it's mandatory that you are connected to the grid is a bit BS. BUT it's typically more economical than using batteries to store the juice for overnight in areas where there's a lot of sunlight. The reason being is you overproduce during the day and then consume at night. You could store that overproduction on batteries, but dumping it on the grid is much smarter as the meter runs backwards. The energy comes back from the grid during the night leading to a near net zero cost.

The disconnect is a safety issue, but that doesn't mean you have to power down your house. There's products out there which can tell if the grid has gone down or not and to engage a disconnect.

 

[nutzo]

there is a reason why grid off generation is frowned upon and that is due to synchronization and what to do if the grid comes back... the grid naturally self-syncs (the benefit of massive synchronous generators)... you stick an electronic inverter that is out of phase and well ...

Even more than that. The voltage has to be regulated within a tight range, or you can damage electric devices.
What happens when the fridge kicks on and the initial power draw is higher than what the solar panels are putting out? Have fun replacing the fridge when the compressor burns out.

This is why, if you want to run off the grid, you need a battery connected to your solar system . You need the battery to handle these peak surges, not just for when it's dark.

 

[Croak]

I'm not an electrician but why would this be any different than a generator with an automatic transfer switch? Where I work, if we lose grid power, the generator automatically starts up and and the transfer switch moves us over to that power. As soon as power is restored, the transfer switch changes us back over to grid power and shuts down the generator. Why wouldn't this be the default/required configuration for a solar implementation to allow homes to continue to be powered by their solar arrays during a power outage?

Go ask your facilities manager what it took to get certified to run that generator, and the annual costs of inspections and tests to keep that certification.

 

[Riccochet]

So, you'd trust the lives of the thousands of linemen who worked around the clock in Florida over this last week to every Florida Man having the good sense to throw a breaker? Now and forever?


I'm a little-l libertarian, I generally hates me some regulation, but sometimes, shit just gotta be.

I'm not an electrician but why would this be any different than a generator with an automatic transfer switch? Where I work, if we lose grid power, the generator automatically starts up and and the transfer switch moves us over to that power. As soon as power is restored, the transfer switch changes us back over to grid power and shuts down the generator. Why wouldn't this be the default/required configuration for a solar implementation to allow homes to continue to be powered by their solar arrays during a power outage?

This is how my setup works. I have solar and generator with a auto transfer switch. When I lose grid power the transfer switch disconnects grid power, fires up the generator and supplements what solar isn't producing.

This isn't rocket science. The technology to do this has been out for decades. I don't mind be grid tied, but I don't want to be 100% grid reliant when I have two alternative methods to power my house.

 

[Deleted member 93354]

So, why not have switches controlled from the power company. In the event of a disconnect due to power line breakage, the home switch disconnects from grid automatically and will on connect back to the grid until a signal is sent to it from the power company. Power companies have been doing this for quite some time.

They can remotely disconnect and shut down substations. They can't physically disconnect all homes. Remember the signal has to get to your home and that signal is being carried over the power lines. If the power is down, you don't have power to carry that signal.

Resync'ing your inverter is a safety feature built into all inverters. They can see they are out of sync in < 1/120th a second and resync.

 

[Dead Parrot]

Trusting someone to flip a breaker will get line repair folks killed. How many homes in Florida are still uninhabited due to suggested or mandatory evacuations? How many of those folks would think to flip the main breaker on their way out of the house? Or even a manual disconnect switch? Could even get a neighbor killed when they are repairing their wiring and the solar system tries to power the neighborhood grid.

Now mandating a grid connection for ALL solar systems seems counter productive. With modern LED lighting, you could have a pure DC lighting system for a house, no mains power needed. It could provide charging for portable devices and even power for LED TVs, radios etc.

My state of OK doesn't mandate the grid connection but does allow for utilities to charge a special fee for anyone installing a solar system. Some kind of a grid support fee.

 

[Deleted member 93354]

Trusting someone to flip a breaker will get line repair folks killed. How many homes in Florida are still uninhabited due to suggested or mandatory evacuations? How many of those folks would think to flip the main breaker on their way out of the house? Or even a manual disconnect switch? Could even get a neighbor killed when they are repairing their wiring and the solar system tries to power the neighborhood grid.

Now mandating a grid connection for ALL solar systems seems counter productive. With modern LED lighting, you could have a pure DC lighting system for a house, no mains power needed. It could provide charging for portable devices and even power for LED TVs, radios etc.

My state of OK doesn't mandate the grid connection but does allow for utilities to charge a special fee for anyone installing a solar system. Some kind of a grid support fee.

Auto kickover switches prevent this. Basically unless a very large percentage of people were on the grid, the amount of current pull would instantly create a voltage sag and the switch kicks over. And most auto kick over switches automatically kick anyway if the current demand from the grid is greater than a given threshold (even if there is no voltage sag). (For example: House is set to run 5kW and grid usually takes 4kW (9kW system)) If the grid exceeds the 4kW, even if the house is only consuming 1kW, kick over)

After my basement flooded twice due to sump power failure, I got a gas backup power system.

 

[toast0]

I'm not an electrician but why would this be any different than a generator with an automatic transfer switch? Where I work, if we lose grid power, the generator automatically starts up and and the transfer switch moves us over to that power. As soon as power is restored, the transfer switch changes us back over to grid power and shuts down the generator. Why wouldn't this be the default/required configuration for a solar implementation to allow homes to continue to be powered by their solar arrays during a power outage?

The difference is that a backup generator is generally sized to meet the demand of the generator powered circuits, and can regulate itself; and you probably have at least annual testing requirements for the transfer switch and the generator. Without a energy storage system, depending on time of day, the solar panels may not be sized for the demand. You could add battery storage and separate out circuits which would be powered by solar and battery, and an annual test, but all of that adds expense. Most solar systems are installed to reduce energy cost / feel good about the environment, not to protect against utility outages. A lower cost option would be a manual transfer switch, with proper interlocks to prevent backfeeding into the grid, and automatically turn off when the load is too high for the given conditions; it's still probably a large additional expense.

 

[panhead]

They can remotely disconnect and shut down substations. They can't physically disconnect all homes. Remember the signal has to get to your home and that signal is being carried over the power lines. If the power is down, you don't have power to carry that signal.

Resync'ing your inverter is a safety feature built into all inverters. They can see they are out of sync in < 1/120th a second and resync.

The switches default to off when there is no line connection, no signal has to be sent to turn off the switch, only turn it on.

 

[Biznatch]

Same here in cali. If you are hooked up to the grid, you have to have an auto disconnect that shuts off your solar when the grid goes down... Like others said, it's so you don't add power to the lines and toast the linesman trying to repair the damage. Same thing goes for the teslsa battery pack.

If I was in florida with solar panels and no power, I would be unhooking my shit from the grid and turning it right back on. No telling how long they will be without power.

 

[DukenukemX]

Nobody is shocked from this. Businesses want to stay in business and they'll flex their money muscle to put in unhealthy restrictions. BTW another fault of capitalism as I make it a rule to point out any fuckery that is the direct or indirect result of capitalism.

Being a NJsian we're had a sharp increase of solar powered homes due to the power company being very unreliable, plus electricity isn't cheap, so it makes sense to install solar. But if they had that sort of bullshit rule I would hook it up the way I want and they can try to stop me. Just make the power company into a public company and problem solved. Worse comes to worse I'll just run extension wires from a solar setup and not use the wiring in my home to distribute power. Would be better that way as I can try to power equipment that's pure DC as having a DC to AC and back to DC conversion is a huge waste of power. I would definitely need a DC PC power supply, which would be smaller and more efficient than the giant 700w hundreds of dollars junks they sell today.

Also this is how a Tesla power wall works and it looks fantastic. Dude even powers his car with this setup. I need this shit.

 

[Deleted member 93354]

The switches default to off when there is no line connection, no signal has to be sent to turn off the switch, only turn it on.

Are you talking the switch in the meter? I thought that was only true if you had a smart meter. And not every house has a smart meter.

 

[DukenukemX]

Same here in cali. If you are hooked up to the grid, you have to have an auto disconnect that shuts off your solar when the grid goes down... Like others said, it's so you don't add power to the lines and toast the linesman trying to repair the damage. Same thing goes for the teslsa battery pack.

Except it doesn't explain why the equipment can't just disconnect your home from the grid during a black out so you could run your home on solar.

If I was in florida with solar panels and no power, I would be unhooking my shit from the grid and turning it right back on. No telling how long they will be without power.

I would have done that shit long ago.

 

[Riccochet]

The difference is that a backup generator is generally sized to meet the demand of the generator powered circuits, and can regulate itself; and you probably have at least annual testing requirements for the transfer switch and the generator. Without a energy storage system, depending on time of day, the solar panels may not be sized for the demand. You could add battery storage and separate out circuits which would be powered by solar and battery, and an annual test, but all of that adds expense. Most solar systems are installed to reduce energy cost / feel good about the environment, not to protect against utility outages. A lower cost option would be a manual transfer switch, with proper interlocks to prevent backfeeding into the grid, and automatically turn off when the load is too high for the given conditions; it's still probably a large additional expense.

Manual transfer switches are a couple hundred bucks, if that. My smart auto switch was $700 and came with the Generac 16kW generator system for my house. It can sense grid voltage and amperage. If it dips for too long or goes out completely the switch disconnects the house from the grid and fires up the generator. Only after grid power is back on and stable for some time will it switch back to grid power.

As no point is there a risk of my generator or solar power hitting the grid unless grid power is on and stable.

 

[Biznatch]

Are you talking the switch in the meter? I thought that was only true if you had a smart meter. And not every house has a smart meter.

It's if you are connected to the grid to sell power back. But the article says they made connecting to the grid a requirement in FL, so you can't have a detached system.

 

[Biznatch]

Except it doesn't explain why the equipment can't just disconnect your home from the grid during a black out so you could run your home on solar.

I would have done that shit long ago.

And if that system fails to disconnect? That's why. Failures happen, so they error on the side of caution when playing with lightning bolts.

 

[Teenyman45]

This is an uninformed story written with a point of view & axe to grind. Every utility has basic interconnect rules for generation - which is what solar is. You can run your solar if you have a positive disconnect from the system - ie a visible, lockable disconnect switch. If not, it is extremely dangerous for the workers. The first thing outside of your house is a transformer, which will step your solar panel voltage up to 13,800 volts. If there are downed lines, you have just energized those lines - without any protective relaying, ground faults, etc that the utility provides on their end. Backfeeds get more workers killed & injured than any form of electrocution.

And you'd trust Florida Man to do the right thing here? (disclaimer, I'm in Florida).

The point that's being made, albeit sensationally and poorly; is that even if the home could be self-powered using solar, it's not allowed to be self powered when other parts of the grid are down. HOWEVER... should the home be using some other form of power supply like a gas/diesel/ lng generator routed through a properly installed panel then that's just fine only solar is excluded.

 

[harbingerofdoom]

The difference is that a backup generator is generally sized to meet the demand of the generator powered circuits, and can regulate itself; and you probably have at least annual testing requirements for the transfer switch and the generator. Without a energy storage system, depending on time of day, the solar panels may not be sized for the demand. You could add battery storage and separate out circuits which would be powered by solar and battery, and an annual test, but all of that adds expense. Most solar systems are installed to reduce energy cost / feel good about the environment, not to protect against utility outages. A lower cost option would be a manual transfer switch, with proper interlocks to prevent backfeeding into the grid, and automatically turn off when the load is too high for the given conditions; it's still probably a large additional expense.

enphase (which is what i have) has a battery backup system for hybrid systems like this... yes its incredibly expensive.

and the backfeed issue is the exact reason why the interconnects are set up the way they are where i am. of course you have to pay like 30/month for that interconnect so no matter what, you are still paying the local utility for something. (but in my case, im also pulling from the grid at night since i dont have a battery system due to the insane cost so i pay for nighttime usage too).

 

[Teenyman45]

enphase (which is what i have) has a battery backup system for hybrid systems like this... yes its incredibly expensive.

and the backfeed issue is the exact reason why the interconnects are set up the way they are where i am. of course you have to pay like 30/month for that interconnect so no matter what, you are still paying the local utility for something. (but in my case, im also pulling from the grid at night since i dont have a battery system due to the insane cost so i pay for nighttime usage too).

Considering the retail cost of 100W and 200W solar panels, an 8-10KW inverter isn't THAT expensive and neither is an array of deep cycle marine batteries. Now if you want something like Tesla's powerwall that's going to cost quite a bit more.

 

[Mohonri]

Yeah, there's a lot of scummy stuff going on there. There *are* measures that have a legitimate basis, but a lot of those are just plain cronyism:

Ok/sort-of-understandable rules:
--your solar panels shouldn't feed the grid if the grid is down, so you don't electrocute workers. It's the same reason you can't/shouldn't plug your gas generator into an outlet in your house.
--a breaker to isolate your solar panels from the grid. This one makes sense, so you can isolate your panels if they're causing a problem, or if you're adding/removing/modifying your solar setup
--fighting net-metering rules: Net metering reduces FPL's revenue, but their capital (and maintenance) costs stay the same. They still have to have enough generation capacity to meet peak demand, regardless of solar installations. So even if you only sell the power back to FPL at wholesale, it still hurts their bottom line.

Just being a jerk rules:
--your house has to be connected to the grid, period. Literally, you cannot have an occupancy permit in FL unless you're tied to the electrical grid, solar panels or no.
--you can't use a transfer switch to isolate and power your own home during an outage. Realistically, if someone's willing to spend the money for this, they're most likely willing to do it right. These aren't the people you need to worry about energizing the lines. The guy you need to be worried about is the guy who's hacked himself a cable that will plug his generator into the dryer outlet, and doesn't have a clue about why that's a Bad Idea.