Thanks Elon you screwed us

Mystique

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
344
Wasn't aware of the changes in ETH 2.0, was a good read. I don't quite agree that sunken hardware costs constitutes value, mostly because of things like XRP, which are not worth zero (like this article claims they should be.)

I agree with the author about the bitcoin halving schedule; it will scare off miners eventually, then nobody will process your transactions for you. Halving inflates until it posses a logistical problem with the structure of how the ledgers work. As miners drop off, bitcoin could also theoretically be subject to a 51% attack, which is one of the most substantial reasons why financial institutions haven't implemented the blockchain yet.

From the article:
Furthermore, even if Proof of Stake worked, such a coin would have no anchor in terms of real-world value. It would have zero cost and zero value.
See, this is where I am not sure I agree, because inherent cost (to mine) != value, with speculative assets, it just may fuel the speculation multiplier, which in my opinion is not the same as its 'value'; just its current speculative price. If it costs a ton of money to mine something, and you can hold on to what you mine as absolute value, I absolutely agree with that argument. But a copper vein gives you copper, which is used in thousands of vital applications. Bitcoin is just a meme that people do instead of Folding@HOME now.

Sounds like ETH 2.0 it going the way of ripple, in a way, but in another sense; if you side by side ripple and bitcoin, they both work as payment methods, which is the whole point, isnt it? And it sidesteps the issue of trashing earth, while you're at it. So in my eyes, it doesnt need to be worth 100k to accomplish the whole goal; which is to be a payment method.
 
Last edited:

Sergius648

n00b
Joined
Apr 3, 2020
Messages
31
If the main appeal of BTC over normal currency is the fact that its resistant to inflation then why choose it over something real like... Real Estate?
 

Andrew_Carr

2[H]4U
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
2,316
If the main appeal of BTC over normal currency is the fact that its resistant to inflation then why choose it over something real like... Real Estate?
Because real estate isn't a currency. It isn't easily moved, divided, it's not uniform, etc. If my government decides tomorrow that it wants me to wear a star on my chest and hand-over half of my property, with something like real estate I'm screwed. With bitcoin I can just leave the country with all of my money intact.

Wasn't aware of the changes in ETH 2.0, was a good read. I don't quite agree that sunken hardware costs constitutes value, mostly because of things like XRP, which are not worth zero (like this article claims they should be.)

I agree with the author about the bitcoin halving schedule; it will scare off miners eventually, then nobody will process your transactions for you. Halving inflates until it posses a logistical problem with the structure of how the ledgers work. As miners drop off, bitcoin could also theoretically be subject to a 51% attack, which is one of the most substantial reasons why financial institutions haven't implemented the blockchain yet.

From the article:

See, this is where I am not sure I agree, because inherent cost (to mine) != value, with speculative assets, it just may fuel the speculation multiplier, which in my opinion is not the same as its 'value'; just its current speculative price. If it costs a ton of money to mine something, and you can hold on to what you mine as absolute value, I absolutely agree with that argument. But a copper vein gives you copper, which is used in thousands of vital applications. Bitcoin is just a meme that people do instead of Folding@HOME now.

Sounds like ETH 2.0 it going the way of ripple, in a way, but in another sense; if you side by side ripple and bitcoin, they both work as payment methods, which is the whole point, isnt it? And it sidesteps the issue of trashing earth, while you're at it. So in my eyes, it doesnt need to be worth 100k to accomplish the whole goal; which is to be a payment method.
No, the whole point is to replace fiat currency with something that isn't subject to central banks and hyperinflation. If you just wanted a better payment method then you could use any one of the cryptos banks have been working on. So if the value of a coin drops to $0, nothing functionally has really changed with the coin (it can still process transactions like before), but now it's basically useless as a currency.
 

Mystique

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
344
You can't realisticly replace fiat currency with a volatile crypocurrency. I get what you're saying, but all businesses need to understand that 1$ is 1$ when marketing and selling their goods and paying their employees. Companies aren't speculators, or day traders; they can't afford for it to be 1.5$ tomorrow; that just doesn't work and isn't possible. The entire economy depends on the fed to regulate the price of the USD. As long as the 51% attack exists, massive volatility, etc the fed will never turn BTC into a currency either way; so if that's what this is all hedged on, don't look down I guess.

The only way fiat is replaced by crypto is if the fed issues the coin (it will make its own, probably USD coin), and stabilizes the price, and prevents mining. (I do see this happening, for whats its worth, in the future)
 
Last edited:

Sergius648

n00b
Joined
Apr 3, 2020
Messages
31
Because real estate isn't a currency. It isn't easily moved, divided, it's not uniform, etc. If my government decides tomorrow that it wants me to wear a star on my chest and hand-over half of my property, with something like real estate I'm screwed. With bitcoin I can just leave the country with all of my money intact.

You can invest into real estate stocks which can be easily moved and divided. I guess I see your point about government suddenly going Commie on us - but is protection from the chance of that happening really worth 47k per coin? Plus you can invest in real estate stocks overseas instead which lessens the risk.
 

LukeTbk

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
1,609
I see Elon has vision, one day Bitcoin will not be compared to the dollar but the dollar compared to the Bitcoin :D. Now it is hard for me to believe Bitcoin will be the one Crypto coin or king long term, other coins are way more advance and useful. Anyways any two people can transfer Bitcoin to each other anywhere in the world where you have Internet access, do that with the dollar. Tesla can totally bypass the banks, financial institutions, currency exchange, be utterly discreet, go straight company to company without any middle guy and the record would be kept perfect for the transaction.

I doubt it, Bitcoin is already being compared to gold and it is probably how it will be used (Tesla bought btc has an investment not as money). Other coins will be the dollar if that happen in my opinion. People will not use something that is likely to gain value and need an expensive blockchain for a daily transaction, Bitcoin transaction fee can go up to over 25$ at the moment. And a bitcoin transaction are all somewhat public and it is hard to imagine a case where you would want a public company to make transaction without any record with anyone or that for a company like Tesla. Bitcoin seem to be trying to be a gold replacement more than a money replacement and that make sense (and like gold it is used for exchange in place without good money, but make no sense to be used for exchange of good in place that have good and solid money).

What are the energy cost of all the banks, central banks, employees traveling to and fro, endless printing and reprinting of money, counting, storing, movement using vehicles money from one place to another, production of coins, the metal mined, machinery built to make the money as well as the cost of all the buildings and energy used to build them and run them? hmmmm.

The modern banking system creating money via loans is quite the value thought, it use profit seeking incentive (and fear of lost) powerful mechanism to have money created when actual value was created at the same time and has been working extremely since it has adjusted itself versus everything else before (look at how money work well in modern economic crisis versus 1929)
 

euskalzabe

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 9, 2009
Messages
1,478
I'm loving this debate, which is fascinating, although I probably only understand about %25 of what is being explained re: economics. Take me out of doing my job, earning my salary, saving for retirement... and I'm a bit lost. Happy to learn the more I read about the economy and how the markets actually work, though.
 

Epyon

Gawd
Joined
Oct 25, 2001
Messages
935
OP here.

Going forward If left un checked If BTC keeps going up will this just mean this is what to expect every 2 years? I don't Game on the PC but i do production Renders work as a hobby. I do live by a Micro Center and will be camping in the future to get one but has it really come to his every video card release now? Going forward is this what we are going to see for 4xxx 5xxx 6xxx 7xxx?
 
Last edited:

noko

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Messages
6,635
I doubt it, Bitcoin is already being compared to gold and it is probably how it will be used (Tesla bought btc has an investment not as money). Other coins will be the dollar if that happen in my opinion. People will not use something that is likely to gain value and need an expensive blockchain for a daily transaction, Bitcoin transaction fee can go up to over 25$ at the moment. And a bitcoin transaction are all somewhat public and it is hard to imagine a case where you would want a public company to make transaction without any record with anyone or that for a company like Tesla. Bitcoin seem to be trying to be a gold replacement more than a money replacement and that make sense (and like gold it is used for exchange in place without good money, but make no sense to be used for exchange of good in place that have good and solid money).



The modern banking system creating money via loans is quite the value thought, it use profit seeking incentive (and fear of lost) powerful mechanism to have money created when actual value was created at the same time and has been working extremely since it has adjusted itself versus everything else before (look at how money work well in modern economic crisis versus 1929)
My thoughts:

Yes, wealth is created, a piece of land, basically dirt has work done on it. A well is dug and now water is available for drinking, growing food etc. value has been added due to the work. Solar cells are installed and now energy is available to do all sorts of work which has value, maybe even mining for Ethereum :D -> more value is added. A home is built which is useful for living and creating a family structure or base to grow from. So from a piece of dirt, value has been added to it and also to the community since now it has a new family, location of wealth.

There are other types of wealth vice physical assets, a book of paper and ink which has information can store value and people would work for it and pay way beyond the value of the physical item cost. It unique property to transmit information is much more valuable then the physical method used to transmit it. Value in human terms can mean many different things, it is not fixed on just a physical entity. For example, a computer game basically a digital asset which has no physical value what so ever, totally useless in doing any kind of work, or sustaining physical life. Yet it has value to people since it contains information, composition, art, action one can take using it can be rewarding in a totally different way. People can say they waste tons of energy playing games, making computers just to play games that have no physical value. Still games have value and that is represented by how much work people will do to obtain playing a game.

A basket ball game, players play by certain rules, restrictions and even the spectators have certain rules they must follow even if unwritten for the game to play out. If a player then decides hey, I am not going to dribble, just run the ball down the court and hoop it, if allowed, the game would change and you would no longer have basketball. Since the other players have no clue what the hell this guy/gal is doing, confusion on the random shift, other players making their own rules up -> The game turns into chaos and is no longer a game of basketball, spectators may go by their new rules and riot and curse at the player or players and so on. It falls apart. People go by the rules, obey certain laws and you get certain outcomes. Anarchy destroys such constructs and has a totally different results where few benefit. Why spend a ton of effort in making a stadium, have others make seats, A/C units, build a building, cloths makers to make cloths, paper mills to make tickets, advertisers to broadcast the game where there is no game?

Money is an organizer, people wake up, plan their day, go to work, make stuff physical or not, plan ahead for it and follow certain rules to maintain it and not lose it. Go to school to learn in order to make it some how, use it to enhance their and family lives and others. Destroy the money and you destroy the whole culture, a rich state can turn into a dust bowl of chaos when the money is no longer reliable, not trusted, can't be reliably counted, made up etc. Those things have real value for humans and society, mess with it and your group, country or world will fall apart into chaos. Value is not just a Gold bar and only a Gold bar, some of the most valuable things are more human related, trust, consistent, reliable, friendly, relatable and so on. A good friend, a true reliable friend, always there when you need them is worth more than a trunk full of Gold which a car would just collapse trying to carry it.

Crypto is a level of freedom from the normal corruption of the World dealing with money, a check and balance so to speak since when you have one entity in charge history has proven corruption usually follows suit. Take that ability to corrupt away and now you have something way more valuable for use as money. Just as the basketball players follow certain rules and then can enjoy the benefit of the playing the game and have fans and all sorts of other enticements fall their way. So can a society that has a reliable, consistent, non-corruptible currency which the value are in those properties. A book value is the information it contains and not the piece of paper and ink used. A game value is the experience one can have from playing it, the friends you can play with or meet. Crypto itself have a value unique to itself and could make a very sound foundation for people to relate to each other for exchange.
 
Last edited:

noko

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Messages
6,635
Do people think Elon did this in a vacuum? I suspect many more corporate types will follow suit, a level of confidence will continue to grow. A lot of weight and trust is being placed on an individual who brain storm, got people together and created Bitcoin and many others who we do not even know who he/she is.
 

Thatguybil

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
137
I sold at 28k in December when I was in Florida escaping covid lockdowns in my home state. Wish I would have held on for another 6 weeks.
 

kensiko

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 5, 2011
Messages
135
Musk might do some crazy stuff but he still started from nothing and that has some merits.

However I don't like the mining because it consumes power that otherwize would be available for other things, like electric cars !
 

Zepher

[H]ipster Replacement
Joined
Sep 29, 2001
Messages
18,917
Starbucks coffee has always tasted burnt to me. There's local places that serve much better coffee for half the price.

On topic, I guess the best I can hope for is finding a used 1080 Ti for way more than I want to pay, but I have a feeling that the 6GB of my current card will become an even greater bottleneck than it already is.

EDIT: I've never really had the money to invest, but part of me wishes I had pumped $20 in when bitcoin first was a thing. If I had held onto it I'd be set for life now. Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

Back to GPU prices, I just have to say, thanks Elon, you prick.
I noticed on eBay that completed auctions for the 1080ti's were nearing $700 on the 9th, haven't checked since to see if they have gone higher.
What were you looking to pay for one?
 

WilyKit

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 18, 2020
Messages
255
All I know is - whenever I hear about a scammer getting someone for thousands nowadays - they seem to force the victim to send them money in bitcoins. To be fair its been a few years since I've actually personally heard of a scammer succeeding in such a way so maybe situation has changed.
So you've never heard of anyone being scammed out of USD before? How about before BTC was a thing?
 

crazycrave

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
Messages
1,232
Watching ebay auctions ending is unreal .. RX 5600 XT pulling $500 to 600 range and RX 5700 XT pulling $800 - 900 range with bids to that price = bitcoin boom
 

cageymaru

Fully [H]
Joined
Apr 10, 2003
Messages
20,726
Do people think Elon did this in a vacuum? I suspect many more corporate types will follow suit, a level of confidence will continue to grow. A lot of weight and trust is being placed on an individual who brain storm, got people together and created Bitcoin and many others who we do not even know who he/she is.
Bitcoin surpasses $50,000 for first time ever as major companies jump into crypto
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/16/bitcoin-btc-price-hits-50000-for-the-first-time.html
 

euskalzabe

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 9, 2009
Messages
1,478
Bitcoin surpasses $50,000 for first time ever as major companies jump into crypto
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/16/bitcoin-btc-price-hits-50000-for-the-first-time.html
These schizophrenic shifts in value are generating an insane market situation, as it often happens with many exciting goods in their early days regardless of actual value. Soon this will stabilize. How long that will take, and how long after that for this to stop affecting our GPU industry... Who knows.
 

sk3tch

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 5, 2008
Messages
1,847
These schizophrenic shifts in value are generating an insane market situation, as it often happens with many exciting goods in their early days regardless of actual value. Soon this will stabilize. How long that will take, and how long after that for this to stop affecting our GPU industry... Who knows.
"our GPU industry..." - so rich!
 

Dark12

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
1,794
These schizophrenic shifts in value are generating an insane market situation, as it often happens with many exciting goods in their early days regardless of actual value. Soon this will stabilize. How long that will take, and how long after that for this to stop affecting our GPU industry... Who knows.
People say this every single time btc goes up.
 

euskalzabe

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 9, 2009
Messages
1,478
People say this every single time btc goes up.
In fairness, it's a pretty "young" good. Market forces will always force it to stabilize at some point. Whether that happens in 2 years or 15, only the market trends will decide. It's been an opportunity to make boatloads of money if you got in early, as with any other successful good. Now that it's slowly becoming mainstream, that's less and less the case. Once it's stable, you can look forward to small gains throughout the year - though most likely more than you'd get in interest from your bank anyway. Personally, I'd rather keep investing in mutual funds - diversify, diversify, diversify.
 

WilyKit

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 18, 2020
Messages
255
People say this every single time btc goes up.

To be fair, it does fluctuate and there have been significant dips. To also be fair, even with the dips, it's remained a valuable crypto coin. I don't think most people have a strong desire for it to be worthless, they just want it to be worth less so it's not completely taking over GPU availability.
 

dvsman

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Messages
3,606
For the people that are worried crypto will keep going up and up - the thing to keep in mind is that there are still BTC left to be mined out of the 21 million cap. BUT once the cap is reached and all 21 million are out in circulation (or lost to time and dead hard disks), the prices should stabilize more as the supply will be constrained and no longer as much of a variable as it is now.

According to these guys https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/how-many-bitcoins-are-there/

We're at 88% mined and at present 900 BTC per day being mined. That's 2,369,581.3 BTC left to be mined and less each minute we're speaking about it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gabe3
like this

WilyKit

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 18, 2020
Messages
255
For the people that are worried crypto will keep going up and up - the thing to keep in mind is that there are still BTC left to be mined out of the 21 million cap. BUT once the cap is reached and all 21 million are out in circulation (or lost to time and dead hard disks), the prices should stabilize more as the supply will be constrained and no longer as much of a variable as it is now.

According to these guys https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/how-many-bitcoins-are-there/

We're at 88% mined and at present 900 BTC per day being mined. That's 2,369,581.3 BTC left to be mined and less each minute we're speaking about it.

Awesome, nothing to worry about then. Only another 7.5 years left for market stabilization!

I'm gonna baby my 1080Ti and start saving for RTX 100 series now
 

kirbyrj

Fully [H]
Joined
Feb 1, 2005
Messages
29,009
For the people that are worried crypto will keep going up and up - the thing to keep in mind is that there are still BTC left to be mined out of the 21 million cap. BUT once the cap is reached and all 21 million are out in circulation (or lost to time and dead hard disks), the prices should stabilize more as the supply will be constrained and no longer as much of a variable as it is now.

According to these guys https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/how-many-bitcoins-are-there/

We're at 88% mined and at present 900 BTC per day being mined. That's 2,369,581.3 BTC left to be mined and less each minute we're speaking about it.

That's in October 2140 though. Everyone arguing about it now will be long gone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mega6
like this

Mystique

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
344
Bitcoin is not going to be stable. The market isn't even stable. We don't pay in market dollars, we pay in U.S. Dollars, which -is- stable because the fed makes it so. It can't replace currency, period. 51% attack, volatility, bla, bla, no solution = no promise.
As opposed to say, the gambling industry, which employs millions of people? :confused:
Also...investing in stocks and gambling are entire different things. Grey is a shade of black but it isn't black, so please don't start that argument. Gambling in yolo-stock plays might be closer to the grey you're looking for, but if you're an actual investor, it is not really a 'gamble'; it is a weighted time investment, diversified to eventual fruition through dividends or market returns. Gambling, you're literally NOT investing; you're throwing money at a fire and hoping it duplicates instead.

I don't know what planet people woke up on and think "Gee, BTC is how I want to pay" but do some basic 101 economics and think about it again. Stablecoin or no coin. Also, fed won't let anyone but themselves make stablecoin since they want to be the main manipulators of the currency. You think they'd give that power up? lolno. Our entire economy depends on their decree.
 
Last edited:

Kardonxt

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 13, 2009
Messages
3,507
No one is mining BTC directly with GPUs so it's really irrelevant anyways. Hitting BTC cap does nothing to stop altcoins.

Additionally we had a GPU shortage before mining was profitable again. Mining has made things worse, but it's far from the only problem.
 

Dark12

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
1,794
Bitcoin is not going to be stable. The market isn't even stable. We don't pay in market dollars, we pay in U.S. Dollars, which -is- stable because the fed makes it so. It can't replace currency, period. 51% attack, volatility, bla, bla, no solution = no promise.

Also...investing in stocks and gambling are entire different things. Grey is a shade of black but it isn't black, so please don't start that argument. Gambling in yolo-stock plays might be closer to the grey you're looking for, but if you're an actual investor, it is not really a 'gamble'; it is a weighted time investment, diversified to eventual fruition through dividends or market returns. Gambling, you're literally NOT investing; you're throwing money at a fire and hoping it duplicates instead.

I don't know what planet people woke up on and think "Gee, BTC is how I want to pay" but do some basic 101 economics and think about it again. Stablecoin or no coin. Also, fed won't let anyone but themselves make stablecoin since they want to be the main manipulators of the currency. You think they'd give that power up? lolno. Our entire economy depends on their decree.
USD is stable? TIL
 

LukeTbk

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
1,609
For the people that are worried crypto will keep going up and up - the thing to keep in mind is that there are still BTC left to be mined out of the 21 million cap. BUT once the cap is reached and all 21 million are out in circulation (or lost to time and dead hard disks), the prices should stabilize more as the supply will be constrained and no longer as much of a variable as it is now.
Seem that it will be way worst after that is reach than before.

If there is still to mine, has value goes up, mining up goes up and that put a force to push the price down, if there is nothing left to mine if demand augment supply cannot go up anymore.

USD is stable? TIL
Since the 90s quite impressively so (historically speaking)
 

LukeTbk

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
1,609
Unless you're investing in stocks that return dividends how is it different than gambling? You're placing a bet ($) on a guess (stock goes the direction you want) in the hope for a future payoff. It doesn't matter why it goes up/down (good "fundamentals", hype for future business, memes like DOGE) all that matters is that it goes in the direction you want it to go in and you sell out in time. My 401k functions the exact same way, except it's more intelligent and well-connected people doing the betting on my behalf with better access to information and generally on less volatile stocks.
There is also stock from company that do stock buyback, but are you not always investing in a stock that either return dividend or are expected to return dividend if it achieve to become a mature company ?
 
Top