Tesla's New Tabless Electrode Battery Cell Patent Is 'Way More Important Than It Sounds' says crazy-person Elon Musk

Verge

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There's an increase in range, but I don't think it's from a change in the battery chemistry itself yet, something else is behind the 16 percent at that step of the presentation, I think it will be more related to the overall pack redesign, I bet they achieved allot of weight savings there, but we'll see.

Maybe when the 520+ mile range Model S plaid comes out next year someone will dig into that, if they're brave enough to take apart a $140k vehicle lol. We'll see if Munro would do it, depends on the customers, hopefully a Chinese or Korean competitor will foot the bill again.

They are bigger batteries. It's like hey, we increased range, by adding more batteries.
 

Ready4Dis

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Don't have to tell them anything, they can figure out how to fund their own infrastructure when car companies and gas stations go out of business or transition to EV support.

Both California and NY are banning ICE by 2030 in their markets, and the EU and China have similar measures, people there are not going to buy obsoleted technology, and companies that don't transition will not survive the competitors that do.

It's an EV, it can work with any plug, the infrastructure is basically laid out already for every home, but people will get tired of using extension cords and the infrastructure will further modernize for the rest of the rural population by demand, kinda like broadband. Businesses are already starting to offer them in malls and hotels to attract customers across the nation.

The state to state travel is already covered, and by end of next year we will have EVs that travel 500 miles:
(https://electrek.co/2020/01/01/tesla-updates-2020-supercharger-map/)

So yeah, sure, there will be pockets of aging infrastructure in the nation, but it's not the first time technology becomes mainstream before it reaches the niche corners of the rural market.
Kinda like broadband, where rural people still have zero infrastructure, lol. Great analogy ;). So you're basically saying no chance of 100% adoption or infrastructure for at least 15+ years.... With all the government subsidies for rural broadband it's still gotten nowhere, there is no way they are going to upgrade the grid + charging stations if there aren't enough people to turn profits. This is why I still can't get broadband to my house, despite living 15 minutes away from target/walmart/lowes. And by broadband, I mean, no cable, no fiber, no DSL... My options are satellite, which I have and can sustain a whopping 60KB/s with a 800-1000ms ping, "4G" cell tethering (notice the quotes, I get 4g, but it's not 4g speeds) where I am lucky to get 30KB/as but can sometimes get < 100ms pings. Yup, options. So if this is how electric grid rollout is going to be, northern california and rural new yorkers will be the first ones completely let down ;).
 

Wierdo

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The current global trends are investing in stupidity and ignorance, nobody with any common sense is going to subscribe to that. It's like the dot com bubble 20 years ago where everyone lost their shirts on dumb ideas.

Yep yep, the world is stupid, you are smart. End of story lol.

At least there's acceptance that the world is going in that direction, and it's just protesting the decision, that's progress in itself.
 

GiGaBiTe

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Both Tesla and NextEra, renewables companies, have passed Exxon in market cap, that should be a wake up call for people on how this obvious trend is the tip of the iceberg really, but if it's not, then all is good, don't worry, go back to sleep lol.

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/10/0...y-nextera-surpasses-exxonmobil-in-market-cap/

Don't shoot the messenger, just follow the new money.

The reason that oil companies have been losing their shirts is because of a years long global oversupply of oil on the market, not because pinkocommie hippies have been building wind turbines. The Saudis and the Russians have kept production high to starve other oil producing nations out of the market, and it's been working (look at Venezuela.) The worldwide pandemic didn't do anything to help that oversupply either, so there's a huge amount of product with no buyers, which is obviously bad for business and why oil companies are doing poorly.

Oil is a cyclical cycle of highs and lows. The last time oil was this low was a bit over 20 years ago when there was an oil glut, and just like then, oil will eventually start creeping back up in value eventually. The only difference is that we'll probably never see $3.50+ a gallon again because of the nations like the US and Canada that have recently found huge oil reserves that can be brought online if oil goes past a certain price that makes it profitable to extract.

They are bigger batteries. It's like hey, we increased range, by adding more batteries.

Unless they come up with a revolutionary new way to store energy, they'll hit a limit on battery range. The highest capacity current battery is something like 1700 lbs. Their 2020 car lineup has some models that weigh as much as a fully decked out F-250. Hope they got good brakes lol.
 

Wierdo

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Kinda like broadband, where rural people still have zero infrastructure, lol. Great analogy ;). So you're basically saying no chance of 100% adoption or infrastructure for at least 15+ years.... With all the government subsidies for rural broadband it's still gotten nowhere, there is no way they are going to upgrade the grid + charging stations if there aren't enough people to turn profits. This is why I still can't get broadband to my house, despite living 15 minutes away from target/walmart/lowes. And by broadband, I mean, no cable, no fiber, no DSL... My options are satellite, which I have and can sustain a whopping 60KB/s with a 800-1000ms ping, "4G" cell tethering (notice the quotes, I get 4g, but it's not 4g speeds) where I am lucky to get 30KB/as but can sometimes get < 100ms pings. Yup, options. So if this is how electric grid rollout is going to be, northern california and rural new yorkers will be the first ones completely let down ;).
Broadband is a monopoly. So no not like broadband fortunately. But hey on a side note, keep an eye out for Starlink, that's looking really really good for internet service.

Hell my homestate of "rural" West Virginia might end up with better service than I do in the Monopoly crippled big city lol. I'm pretty excited for the family there, kinda jealous, the irony haha.
 

Wierdo

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If you want some back-of-the envelope engineering analysis on this kind of thing:
Excellent video man, quite insightful and nerdy, thanks!

Really like the guy's style of explaining the engineering behind it, especially the calculation of resistance improvements, orders of magnitude improvement over old tab design, and later on how that unlocks the better cooling approach when you have that many conductive copper tabs available. Good stuff.

Other interesting tidbits to explain the new design's gains:
1602264842258.png


TL/DR: Orders of magnitude less heat loss as well as much better thermal management capability, brilliant.

Subscribed.
 

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1_rick

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Broadband is a monopoly. So no not like broadband fortunately.

You ever going to tell us how the massive amount of infrastructure including new power plants are going to magically appear, especially in BANANA[1] California? Or are you going to rely on unicorns to power all those cars?

[1] Build Absolotely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything.
 

UltraTaco

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I vote unicorns!

Taco sees one big problem being overshadowed by another even bigger problem. Need more coal plants.
 

Wierdo

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You ever going to tell us how the massive amount of infrastructure including new power plants are going to magically appear, especially in BANANA[1] California? Or are you going to rely on unicorns to power all those cars?
Dude, the grid, the solar adoption, the charging infrastructure, all that is being improved dramatically, just keep up with the news.

Ex: They just opened up the largest energy storage facility in the world last month, beating Australia's old record size, and this was only twenty percent of what the final project is gonna be.

Ex: Solar mandated on every new roof. The state, the counties, the utilities offering major incentives for installing chargers and panels. Hotels, malls, businesses adding charging, solar, storage to save money and attract customers, etc.

Ex: Higher incomes also makes installing solar panels and storage easier, not to mention the benefits of doing so with PG&E's shenanigans and the higher rates, so tons of people are doing it.

They got god's money to throw at these problems, it's on another level and they got the pioneering spirit to stay ahead on progress and technology, so they set the national trend regularly. But their bureaucracy is pretty sad, sure, too much redundant red tape in many areas, meaning they're good at IT but not the ideal place for manufacturing, for example.

I just don't wanna delve too much into rural people's insecurities about California's success and heavyweight status, rural "feel good" anecdotals and gossip about them is a waste of time.

TL/DR: Everything in California is large scale, the challenges, the plans, the advancements. It's just the way it is, their mere surpluses and deficits are entire budgets of most other states, it's the big league, so it's understandable, in a way, why rural people freak out about what's just another Monday in Cali. It's why I moved out of WV, can't argue with double the money in the bank.
 
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magic8192

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Better hope the Chicoms decide to sell the world enough rare earth metals to supply all the batteries needed.
The new batteries are supposed to be cobalt free and according the Musk there is enough Lithium and Nickel in the US to supply the batteries. Musk has been openly recruiting Nickel miners that mine responsibly.
 

Axman

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You need rare earths for the motors. The biggest mine is in the US but it's closed, ostensibly for environmental reasons but really it's to drain China.
 

1_rick

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Dude, the grid, the solar adoption, the charging infrastructure, all that is being improved dramatically, just keep up with the news.
Yup, no answer. Got it. Again: picture 12 buildings, 4 400-parking-spot parking garages in a one-block or so radius. How many chargers will you put in? Who's going to pay for it? How much will it cost? How much will the electric compnay have to spend to upgrade their lines leading into the area, how much will that cost, and how much will that raise everyone's electricity rates?
 

Wierdo

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"Tens of thousands of $$ price hike on all new houses." Got it.
Yes, but you think well off Californians care that their $700,000 house is $730,000 with cheaper bills and better quality of life? They predominantly plan to add it themselves anyway, but the state doubles down and makes sure we modernize faster and cheaper with standadization, it has attracted many solar jobs and businesses to the state.

It's just the way we continue to stay ahead in the game, long-term planning. Our state production is not cynicism and cheap retirement property, so I can understand the confusion lol.

Yup, no answer. Got it. Again: picture 12 buildings, 4 400-parking-spot parking garages in a one-block or so radius. How many chargers will you put in? Who's going to pay for it? How much will it cost? How much will the electric compnay have to spend to upgrade their lines leading into the area, how much will that cost, and how much will that raise everyone's electricity rates?
It's not the answer you wanna hear, that's not my problem man lol.

You talk about these parking lots as if they don't already exist, maybe check out some of California's big malls and parking facilities sometime, it's already a done deal in many of them. You can't drive around town without spotting a dozen EVs along the way, and it's really easy to find a place to park and charge already.

1602276212559.png


You also don't seem to factor in how much technology is on hand to tackle these challenges, for example what a battery storage solution - such as the Megapack - can handle in terms of load balancing and facility management, this is a solved problem. Allot of smart people are working on these things. I don't know how infrastructure planning works in your part of the country, but it's not some mood swing, a spur of the moment decision, allot of planning did go into them.

Again, California has the resources and focus to do this, and plans to continue to invest and lead in technology, attracting these high demand jobs is a great investment in the future, so you figure it out, maybe don't work with rural budget expectations to make these defeatist assumptions.
 
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1_rick

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$700,000 house

That's great for them. I don't want to pay that kind of money for a house, which is one train I don't live in CA.

Also, still waiting to hear how you plan on paying for my parking garage conversion. After 5 or 6 times you've ignored it, I assume you are constitutionally unable to admit you can't answer it without lots of dollar signs.
 

cdabc123

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That's great for them. I don't want to pay that kind of money for a house, which is one train I don't live in CA.

Also, still waiting to hear how you plan on paying for my parking garage conversion. After 5 or 6 times you've ignored it, I assume you are constitutionally unable to admit you can't answer it without lots of dollar signs.

Didnt you hear him? There are smart people working on these things
 

Ready4Dis

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Broadband is a monopoly. So no not like broadband fortunately. But hey on a side note, keep an eye out for Starlink, that's looking really really good for internet service.

Hell my homestate of "rural" West Virginia might end up with better service than I do in the Monopoly crippled big city lol. I'm pretty excited for the family there, kinda jealous, the irony haha.
Yeah, I signed up for the beta the first day it was available, unfortunetly for me, I'm down south a bit, so I won't be seeing it anytime soon. I agree it's pretty monopolized. Like I said, I'm not even that far out there, lol. I was looking into creating my own WISP, but am hesitant to do so with Starlink getting close as it'll immediately render me obsolete and the startup costs are far from free ;).

Well, onto the batteries... any progress is better than no progress I guess and if this can give 16% better range and lower costs for batteries, it's a double win, even if it's only incremental.
 

Bowman15

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I like how certain states and or countres are trying to have "forced obsolescence" buy having deadlines for ICE vehicles. Its like Microsoft telling users to get off Windows XP LOL. You know becasue state and federal government's are so efficient. :LOL:
 

Wierdo

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Top. Men.
Bigly men, with big hands. We do get some of the greatest minds in the nation, what else is new, right?

But yeah, you guys seem to hate the idea of modern age manufacturing jobs flooding back to America, not sure why, maybe last century industry types. Anyway, California plans to corner as much as it can out of this trend, and Texas seems to be now in the running in a major way.

Which is good, because now there's a good chance we'll remain a strong economic player on the world stage, thanks to companies like Tesla and such.
 
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cdabc123

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Bigly men, with big hands. We do get some of the greatest minds in the nation, what else is new, right?

But yeah, you guys seem to hate the idea of modern age manufacturing jobs flooding back to America, not sure why, maybe last century industry types. Anyway, California plans to corner as much as it can out of this trend, and Texas seems to be now in the running in a major way.

Which is good, because now there's a good chance we'll remain a strong economic player on the world stage, thanks to companies like Tesla and such.

You drink too much kool aid. Hopefully it stays sweet for ya
 

1_rick

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But yeah, you guys seem to hate the idea of modern age manufacturing jobs flooding back to America
Keep the lights on full time in your state and maybe finish that so-called high speed rail first, why don't you, before pretending all these magical construction jobs are ever going to exist.
 

DWolvin

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Man I went to sleep and missed a bunch... Also I charge on a standard 120V wall outlet exclusively just because I want people to know how ignorant they are. Granted if I drove longer distances each day I'd need to consider using my 16A@240V to halve my recharge time.

Basically not everyone needs high speed recharging and should use the right till for the job.

Same- I use my RV hoookup (because I use my garage for workshop stuff instead of parking), but my car charges from midnight until about 0130, when the grid is cheap. Not everyone can do so, but electric cars are not going to break America. We are pretty much a developed nation!
 

UltraTaco

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End of times are coming. Soon we will see nations clash in proxy wars like never before, humans get advanced augmentations and the fight for water and other natural resources will switch into overdrive.

Tesla is only the tip of the iceberg, something big is coming and no, AMD won't be on our side.

AI will pick targets based on internet activity and eliminate all resistance through the back channels. It will not be very obvious at first, but some will know.

California will fall. It is already strained with the grid overload. Once everyone plugs it in, the lights will go dark and chaos will begin.

We are not ready for all electric automobiles. The transition will never be smooth.
 

Wierdo

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Keep the lights on full time in your state and maybe finish that so-called high speed rail first, why don't you, before pretending all these magical construction jobs are ever going to exist.
Will do, you guys just sit back and watch, obviously pretty good at that part lol.


"It's not the big that eat the small, but rather the fast that eat the slow."
1602301530253.png
 
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MikeTrike

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Have you looked at the up front costs of solar? It's easy to hit tens of thousands of dollars for one house, at least just a few years ago.
Right, but solar is basically just prepaying for electricity.

I think it's stupid primarily because it's like putting your electric bill on your credit card and carrying a balance... Which is really stupid. California leadership is also fucking dumb.

I may or may not be a little familiar with solar.

1602293568421.png
 

Nafensoriel

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Major metropolitan areas have some of the worst infrastructure in the country, especially really old metropolitan areas. In many cases, you have over a hundred years of underground lines that were never designed to have the loads they now have placed on them and are running over capacity. Heck, New York still has Thomas Edison's DC service in some areas from the late 1800s.

Replacing and/or upgrading that infrastructure will cost billions of dollars, because unlike suburban and rural areas, you have to tear up major roadways and sidewalks to get at the stuff. If anything, suburban areas would probably see grid upgrades long before a major metropolitan area would.
Bit more than billions. Rough estimates are between 2 and 6 trillion for USA/CAD. Most of the current grid isnt upgradable anymore because its not only old but neglected.
I live in an area with a black start as our primary power delivery for the city. There are parts of THIS local grid that really need replacing... and its one of the few places that actually gets attention regularly due to its status. The only reason the USA grid isn't melted slag is when it was built it was overbuilt.

Also oil industry issues are because we got to efficient. Everyone expected oil for everything... and it is oil for everything... but we got really dang good at using very little oil to get the job done. Gasoline efficiency and ship diesel alone are primary drivers of cheap oil. Once ships drank like leaky bucket.. now they sip in comparison and haul more.

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@ weirdo The problems with the claims for increase in range is where is the range coming from? Until I have a battery in my lab that I can rip to shreds and test until failure its a very dangerous assumption to think its the battery that's primarily involved here.
It makes far more sense that aerodynamics changes, weight reduction, and motor improvements have more to do with it than the batteries. Why? These things have far more margin for improvement and are all lower hanging fruit for tesla specifically. Realistically the cell design is darn close to tapped out without some major novel discoveries... and the issue with novel discoveries in this case is we know physics better than they did in the 50s(barely honestly). There is physical material limits to efficiency that no amount of trying will fix. It's like solar cells... everyone thinks you can drop silicon and get better than 30% efficiency... but physics just really says no. There are tricks where you can get a headline that says "we got 47%!" but in a manner that is unsuitable for actual usage. We have quite bluntly a dumpster full of "new batteries" that work in a lab... but not in real life.

Also about market cap. I work in an industry that is only 130 billion ish in market value worldwide. Yet if we decided to close our doors tomorrow we could gut 15% of the worldwide stock markets by creating a 10 year shortage of a critical good.
End point market cap is a very poor indicator of success. It's a newbie move to think it is honestly. Right now what tesla provides isn't really worth what they claim it is... its being priced right now on what people think its worth. If EVs and batteries were actually being adopted at a truly breakneck pace you'd see the lower base commodities spiking... but you aren't. Lithium is in decline and has been since 2017. Why? Everyone thought the world was going full EV... and then it didnt... and investment moved on.

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@MikeTrike
Just because you can charge on 120v doesn't mean it will become standard. The reality is once enough EVs hit a market you will see builders start to include chargers into the house itself at sale. Then you'll see code changes to regulate the obvious cheap bastards this will bring out. A 15amp charge cycle on 120v doesn't automatically make it less stress either. When grids are designed they tend to assume a downcycle at night where they can do things like drop a plant off the grid for maintenance etc. While YOU might not notice it at home when you see a large adoption of EV in an area trust me the power companies notice it and it can cause problems. Also how many people are in your situation where a 25mile night charge is sufficient?
 

Nafensoriel

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Second post for different discussion.
To anyone who thinks solar is still the savoir of the planet...
I want you to look into silicon tetrachloride and realize there is zero way to remove it from the PV cell manufacturing.

Solar is a deferral of disaster to a later date not a solution.
 

GiGaBiTe

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Keep the lights on full time in your state and maybe finish that so-called high speed rail first, why don't you, before pretending all these magical construction jobs are ever going to exist.

Why would they let that cash cow end? You know you gotta spend $1000 for every $1 of actual work on wine and dine cronies and nepotistic tendencies else it never works :rolleyes:
 

GiGaBiTe

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Solar is a deferral of disaster to a later date not a solution.

But deferral has worked so well for the nuclear industry, everyone should totally adopt it for all hazardous compounds because it is a 100% effective strategy!
 

DWolvin

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Second post for different discussion.
To anyone who thinks solar is still the savoir of the planet...
I want you to look into silicon tetrachloride and realize there is zero way to remove it from the PV cell manufacturing.

Solar is a deferral of disaster to a later date not a solution.
Isn't that getting largely recycled? That's my understanding, and what I can find reference to - but nothing [H] worthy. But it's worth talking about the byproducts of all energy production- beginning to end, but it's very difficult to really come to grips with the hazardous leftovers from the oldest players in the industry.
 

xykreilon

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Global trends mean nothing once they run into reality. The reality is electric cars have no chance to be a primary form of travel any time soon in the US. Power generation won't support it. The power infrastructure such as power lines and homes won't support it. There are no places to put chargers for many places such as for people who park on the street or even many apartment buildings/complexes. These are only a few of the problems and all of them must be solved, not just one or two of them before it could possibly become a reality.

Here are a couple of scenarios for you to figure out the answers for. My old apartment complex consisted of quite a few buildings, all of which consisted of eight apartments each. All the parking was outdoors next to the buildings. There was no assigned parking. Where are you going to put all the chargers for the people living there? Who is going to pay for all the chargers to be installed? What happens when you have visitors who need to charge their vehicles before they leave? Is there going to be any parking at all for visitors since the spaces would need to be assigned? Even if they get a space, how do you deal with them needing to charge their vehicles since someone has to pay for the electricity they use?

Currently I'm living basically in the middle of nowhere. There are four people here and four vehicles. There is a garage but it's not next to the house and it only has two bays. How are you going to setup charging in this scenario? At least two vehicles must be parked outside at all times. What happens when we have company, some of whom live quite a distance away and will have to recharge before they can leave? Some of these visitors are only around for hours such as for certain holidays and there are quite a few of them with quite a few vehicles and they all need to recharge the vehicles. How am I supposed to deal with several extra vehicles while still needing to maintain power for house and other things? What happens during the winter when power can be out for a day or more? The wood furnace in the garage can keep that nice and cozy so we aren't going to freeze to death and the small generator is enough to run space heaters in the house to make sure pipes don't freeze but that's definitely not going to do any good with charging up to four vehicles. By the way, one of the vehicles is a 3/4 ton diesel truck and it's used for quite a bit of pulling. Battery tech sure as hell isn't nearly advanced enough to replace the diesel in that truck without needing to stop and recharge every 50-100 miles with some of the loads it pulls.

The people calling electric vehicles some sort of panacea don't have the first clue about what they are speaking about. They don't have any idea of the problems which must be fixed before electric vehicles can be more than a novelty. They also don't understand the amount of money required to make all of those changes.

Go ahead and parade the idiocy of California and other places saying they are banning anything but electric vehicles for new sales at some made up future date. It's not going to happen. California can't supply enough power for people to keep the a/c on in their homes when it's hot. What makes you think there's any chance of some sort of electric vehicle revolution coming anytime soon when all the signs point to it being literally impossible?
Totally agree.

What I find annoying is how negatively it is viewed to regard electric as a novelty. If you don't accept them as the next big thing in short time, you don't accept them at all, according to lots of electric fanboys.

It's the lack of acceptance of their novelty that causes the market to be saturated with bland, uninteresting baloney. Why, when I'm getting any electric vehicle, am I getting some bloated "smart" car with redundant touchscreens and general features I don't care about? They're all trying to fit into the same "next-gen" ideal- because nobody expects or accepts electric being simply a novelty.

Bollinger Motors is really changing things up. You pay for unique performance and utility, not bloated BS. It's the only electric vehicle line I'm currently interested in.
 

UltraTaco

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Interesting, looked up bollinger motors.
They are missing some basic aerodynamic upgrade package 😔not excited..
 
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