Tesla's New Tabless Electrode Battery Cell Patent Is 'Way More Important Than It Sounds' says crazy-person Elon Musk

KarateBob

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Tesla has patented a new “tabless” battery cell design that it says improves on existing designs. It's way more important than it sounds, says Elon Musk.

"There’s nothing wrong with tab technology, but streamlining battery designs to remove them could save a lot of time, materials, and money. In a 2017 conference paper on tabless battery designs, the authors summed it up nicely: “The advantages of the tabless design are: More robust and reproducible; More easy to produce; Less scraps; More reliable.”"

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a32433420/elon-musk-tesla-battery-cell-patent/

I think Elon's twitter is a good follow.
 

kju1

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You know, I used to think this man was competent. And maybe he was, but ever since he started consorting with celebrities and musicians he has just kind of gone off the deep end.

I can't take anything he says seriously anymore.

Not even that Teslas stock is over valued?
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Not even that Teslas stock is over valued?

I don't have a good grasp on what the current valuation is based on.

I know they are building more Lithium Ion battery production capacity than anyone else in the world right now, and large lithium ion batteries are always in short supply due to desired car electrification, so that right there is a huge boon to their future prospects, with or without their cars.

I almost suspect it is their battery production, not their cars, which has the most value for the company moving forward. Provided they can keep getting rare Earth elements in sufficient quantities to support production...

I have no idea to what extent that is already built in, or overpriced in the share price though.

I am neither a financial analyst, nor have I looked into their books particularly closely.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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I thought tesla bought their battery's from Panasonic? Bunch of 18650s to make a single battery pack.

I think they still do to a certain extent, but as they phase in the output of the gigafactory I presume they'll be using fewer and fewer of other companies batteries, and may even become a net battery seller.
 

1_rick

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Pfffft, and give up on this?

1589250657882.png
 

Wierdo

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Seems allot of people are out of the loop here. This was a major announcement, they basically killed the legacy car industry in its current form within this generation. Those companies will have to scramble to adapt in the next three years, or otherwise fall off the map within a generation with these advancements in mind.

The mainstream media didn't get it as usual, they came for a glitter show and ended up with a chemistry class. And the industry insiders with conflicts of interest are playing it down, BUT many engineers and industry experts are going nuts over this news.


The first proof of concept, the Model S Plaid that's coming out next year with 520 miles of range and 0-60 in 2 seconds, and then the $25k EV in three years, is just the tip of the iceberg.

There are too many awesome details to discuss here from that three hour presentation, but basically they are solving their own battery shortage problems, and dropping costs significantly along the way.


We're talking an order of magnitude gain in battery production output in a few years, and more than two orders of magnitude by 2030, it's a huge deal.

This is a major market disruption.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/tesla-battery-day-cost-reduction-three-years

Screen_Shot_2020-09-22_at_3.36.08_PM_1005_592_80.jpg
 
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Propaganda may make people hate them, either because California or because of fearful fools hate any car that isn't ICE based, but Tesla will probably be the worlds largest car maker in the next 20 years and has already redefined and retargetted the industry. In an industry where the USA was a laughable laggard and general low quality scrap dealer for decades, Tesla has made her a leader again.
 

Meeho

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Seems allot of people are out of the loop here. This was a major announcement, they basically killed the legacy car industry in its current form within this generation. Those companies will have to scramble to adapt in the next three years, or otherwise fall off the map within a generation with these advancements in mind.

The mainstream media didn't get it as usual, they came for a glitter show and ended up with a chemistry class. And the industry insiders with conflicts of interest are playing it down, BUT many engineers and industry experts are going nuts over this news.


The first proof of concept, the Model S Plaid that's coming out next year with 520 miles of range and 0-60 in 2 seconds, and then the $25k EV in three years, is just the tip of the iceberg.

There are too many awesome details to discuss here from that three hour presentation, but basically they are solving their own battery shortage problems, and dropping costs significantly along the way.


We're talking an order of magnitude gain in battery production output in a few years, and more than two orders of magnitude by 2030, it's a huge deal.

This is a major market disruption.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/tesla-battery-day-cost-reduction-three-years

View attachment 285472
When is the accompanying California's revolutionary power grid technology entering production?
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Seems allot of people are out of the loop here. This was a major announcement, they basically killed the legacy car industry in its current form within this generation. Those companies will have to scramble to adapt in the next three years, or otherwise fall off the map within a generation with these advancements in mind.

The mainstream media didn't get it as usual, they came for a glitter show and ended up with a chemistry class. And the industry insiders with conflicts of interest are playing it down, BUT many engineers and industry experts are going nuts over this news.


The first proof of concept, the Model S Plaid that's coming out next year with 520 miles of range and 0-60 in 2 seconds, and then the $25k EV in three years, is just the tip of the iceberg.

There are too many awesome details to discuss here from that three hour presentation, but basically they are solving their own battery shortage problems, and dropping costs significantly along the way.


We're talking an order of magnitude gain in battery production output in a few years, and more than two orders of magnitude by 2030, it's a huge deal.

This is a major market disruption.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/tesla-battery-day-cost-reduction-three-years

View attachment 285472

I mostly agree with your post, though the tome is a little bit too Tesla fanboy for me.

The truth is that just about everything about designing making an electric vehicle is orders of magnitude less complex, and easier to do than an internal combustion based vehicle.

Except the battery that is.

Tesla excels at exactly two things. They went all in on battery production and research. they are also ahead of their competitors in the race for autonomous driving technologies. (but personally I don't really care about this. I prefer to drive myself)

All the other manufacturers have more experience in making good cars than Tesla does, and it still shows even today. Where they are going to struggle is when it comes to where they are going to get their batteries. Otherwise they could easily school Tesla.

Tesla will learn as time goes on though. They have already gotten much better at it than they were when the Model S first launched.

The Giga Factory was a surprisingly good call on their part and ahead of the curve. At the time it was a huge risk, and I probably wouldn't have done it if in their shoes, as they couldn't have known how it would turn out. Now with hindsight being 2020, I'm surprised no competitor has followed suit in building their own battery plant.

Biggest threat to Tesla's business model is probably the availability of rare earth elements needed to manufacture Lithium Ion batteries. Most of them come from China today, and they are willing to flex and restrict it as a power play.

Well, that, and we have nowhere near the power generation capacity or electrical grid infrastructure to charge all of these cars if they take off the way it looks like they might. The current grid and power generation capacity is probably an order of magnitude to small to handle that challenge. And no, local little distributed renewable efforts like home solar panels are not going to even come close to putting a dent in that.

I foresee a future with much higher electric rates, or with brownouts/shortages or both.

If true supply and demand is allowed to take hold, as people buy more electric vehicles, electric rates will shoot up. But that will never happen, because mom and pop homeowners who like their airconditioning down south where it gets very hot will throw hissy fits at the polls during elections.

Unclear what will happen. Expanding the grid and power generation is too slow of a process. No way it can keep up with electric vehicle demand.

Some places will probably try to keep household electric rates low by enacting electric vehicle charging penalties. Other places will allow electric rates to go up.

The people who can afford it will likely buy more solar panels, but they are and will remain expensive, and out of the grasp of renters. And in order to offset two cars per household on average, you'd need an impossibly large capacity.

Certainly are some challenges ahead.
 
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cdabc123

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I mostly agree with your post, though the tome is a little bit too Tesla fanboy for me.

The truth is that just about everything about designing making an electric vehicle is orders of magnitude less complex, and easier to do than an internal combustion based vehicle.

Except the battery that is.

Tesla excels at exactly two things. They went all in on battery production and research. they are also ahead of their competitors in the race for autonomous driving technologies. (but personally I don't really care about this. I prefer to drive myself)

All the other manufacturers have more experience in making good cars than Tesla does, and it still shows even today. Where they are going to struggle is when it comes to where they are going to get their batteries. Otherwise they could easily school Tesla.

Tesla will learn as time goes on though. They have already gotten much better at it than they were when the Model S first launched.

The Giga Factory was a surprisingly good call on their part and ahead of the curve. At the time it was a huge risk, and I probably wouldn't have done it if in their shoes, as they couldn't have known how it would turn out. Now with hindsight being 2020, I'm surprised no competitor has followed suit in building their own battery plant.

Biggest threat to Tesla's business model is probably the availability of rare earth elements needed to manufacture Lithium Ion batteries. Most of them come from China today, and they are willing to flex and restrict it as a power play.

Well, that, and we have nowhere near the power generation capacity or electrical grid infrastructure to charge all of these cars if they take off the way it looks like they might. The current grid and power generation capacity is probably an order of magnitude to small to handle that challenge. And no, local little distributed renewable efforts like home solar panels are not going to even come close to putting a dent in that.

I foresee a future with much higher electric rates, or with brownouts/shortages or both.

If true supply and demand is allowed to take hold, as people buy more electric vehicles, electric rates will shoot up. But that will never happen, because mom and pop homeowners who like their airconditioning down south where it gets very hot will throw hissy fits at the polls during elections.

Unclear what will happen. Expanding the grid and power generation is too slow of a process. No way it can keep up with electric vehicle demand.

Some places will probably try to keep household electric rates low by enacting electric vehicle charging penalties. Other places will allow electric rates to go up.

The people who can afford it will likely buy more solar panels, but they are and will remain expensive, and out of the grasp of renters. And in order to offset two cars per household on average, you'd need an impossibly large capacity.

Certainly are some challenges ahead.

A good portion of vehicles will be ice for a long while. This is even if all of the new sales are electric which will not happen for awhile with some automakers yet to try to venture this direction. I would say tesla has definitely secured a position as a automaker.
 

Mega6

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As a left coast resident dealing with CA’s wildfire smoke, I often ponder how they expect to offset the carbon released from their wildfires. I mean, they could plant a whole forest, but it seems like they’d just burn it down again. 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Really it's about forest MANAGEMENT. Allowing and promoting controlled burns by a qualified forest service will go a long way in preventing such disasters. But no, everyone wants to live in the forest and pretend that it should never burn - until it does.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Really it's about forest MANAGEMENT. Allowing and promoting controlled burns by a qualified forest service will go a long way in preventing such disasters. But no, everyone wants to live in the forest and pretend that it should never burn - until it does.

We are beyond the point where forest management can really stop this.

The few degrees warmer average year round temperature from climate change has resulted in more wood boring species of beetles. These things are killing trees turning them into dead dry kindling in overwhelming numbers.

There is no forest management effort in the world that can stop this.

But even if there were. Approximately 2/3 of the forests that have burned in California thus far this year are on federal land, and thus any forest management would be the federal governments responsibility.
 
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sfsuphysics

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There are too many awesome details to discuss here from that three hour presentation, but basically they are solving their own battery shortage problems, and dropping costs significantly along the way.
I'm not going to argue about dropping costs other than Elon likes to tell everyone what he wants them to know, very often to get more investor money rolling in. And sure they're solving their own battery problem by making their own batteries. However I hate to be a debbie downer here but this nugget has been bugging me, this is one of the slides that was shown during the Battery Day event

View attachment 285664

It claims 5x the energy +16% range ok.. now stick with me for a second.
The new design is 80mm tall by 46mm wide as per the picture, the old batteries they used were 70mm x 21mm (2170 batteries). Volume of the old batteries 70 * pi * (21/2)², volume of the new batteries 80 * pi * (46/2)², Volume of new divided by volume of old = ~ 5.5. So the new technology is 5.5x more volume than the old, but only increases energy by 5x? And that some how increases range by 16%? Drink the Kool Aid all you want about how revolutionary a tab-less battery is because the "electrons don't have to travel as far" but you're taking up 5.5x as much space and only giving 5x the energy storage, how does that translate to increased range?
 

Wierdo

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I'm not going to argue about dropping costs other than Elon likes to tell everyone what he wants them to know, very often to get more investor money rolling in. And sure they're solving their own battery problem by making their own batteries. However I hate to be a debbie downer here but this nugget has been bugging me, this is one of the slides that was shown during the Battery Day event

View attachment 285664

It claims 5x the energy +16% range ok.. now stick with me for a second.
The new design is 80mm tall by 46mm wide as per the picture, the old batteries they used were 70mm x 21mm (2170 batteries). Volume of the old batteries 70 * pi * (21/2)², volume of the new batteries 80 * pi * (46/2)², Volume of new divided by volume of old = ~ 5.5. So the new technology is 5.5x more volume than the old, but only increases energy by 5x? And that some how increases range by 16%? Drink the Kool Aid all you want about how revolutionary a tab-less battery is because the "electrons don't have to travel as far" but you're taking up 5.5x as much space and only giving 5x the energy storage, how does that translate to increased range?

Yes I think in terms of energy density they're not directly gaining with the increase in battery size. The main benefit of doing so, aside from the improved power output, was to reduce the number of batteries in their packs from ~4800 to around ~900ish, for example, which is a huge benefit in terms of radically improving battery production speed and cost, it's cuts down on many steps in the process.

Now as far as range, unless the new "container" is providing some weight reduction advantages they didn't cover, I'm thinking the biggest gain is due to the major weight reduction with the new pack design itself rather than cell chemistry related:

They're switching from the old "modules and packs" approach to using the batteries as a structural part of the vehicle - honeycomb structure submerged in protective thermal gel - which in the process lets them do away with allot of the heavy material holding the old module/pack design together.

tesla-battery-analysis.jpg

They also may be replacing the elaborate cooling setup with plate cooling, basically the plate at the bottom of the batteries will transfer heat from the cells in a way that looks similar to how CPUs utilize heatsinks.

This clip kinda discusses how cooling works in this fashion - it's not specifically talking about the Tesla design, but the same concept applies:

There are more technical dives for this on Youtube if interested, I believe they actually discussed it in both videos I posted in the prior post, but just briefly.

But the TL/DR is that there are major weight reductions involved with this design switch, which is likely where allot of the range increase is coming, that's what I'm understanding by inference and from available material so far.
 
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I'm not going to argue about dropping costs other than Elon likes to tell everyone what he wants them to know, very often to get more investor money rolling in. And sure they're solving their own battery problem by making their own batteries. However I hate to be a debbie downer here but this nugget has been bugging me, this is one of the slides that was shown during the Battery Day event

View attachment 285664

It claims 5x the energy +16% range ok.. now stick with me for a second.
The new design is 80mm tall by 46mm wide as per the picture, the old batteries they used were 70mm x 21mm (2170 batteries). Volume of the old batteries 70 * pi * (21/2)², volume of the new batteries 80 * pi * (46/2)², Volume of new divided by volume of old = ~ 5.5. So the new technology is 5.5x more volume than the old, but only increases energy by 5x? And that some how increases range by 16%? Drink the Kool Aid all you want about how revolutionary a tab-less battery is because the "electrons don't have to travel as far" but you're taking up 5.5x as much space and only giving 5x the energy storage, how does that translate to increased range?
Let’s not let the technical details get in the way of the hype.
 

TrailRunner

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They're switching from the old "modules and packs" approach to using the batteries as a structural part of the vehicle - honeycomb structure submerged in protective thermal gel - which in the process lets them do away with allot of the heavy material holding the old module/pack design together

And while the “million mile battery” that everyone was expecting wasn’t explicitly announced, I think this design direction hints that they are reaching that goal, or at least have high confidence that they will soon. Once the battery is epoxied in as a structural part of the frame, you can’t just swap out the pack when it reaches 70% capacity like you can now. I’ll bet we hear about the million mile battery when the Semi gets close to delivery.
 

Nafensoriel

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You know, I used to think this man was competent. And maybe he was, but ever since he started consorting with celebrities and musicians he has just kind of gone off the deep end.

I can't take anything he says seriously anymore.
You should have realized that the moment he tried to sell early 1900s era ideas as his own.
 

GoodBoy

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I'm not going to argue about dropping costs other than Elon likes to tell everyone what he wants them to know, very often to get more investor money rolling in. And sure they're solving their own battery problem by making their own batteries. However I hate to be a debbie downer here but this nugget has been bugging me, this is one of the slides that was shown during the Battery Day event

View attachment 285664

It claims 5x the energy +16% range ok.. now stick with me for a second.
The new design is 80mm tall by 46mm wide as per the picture, the old batteries they used were 70mm x 21mm (2170 batteries). Volume of the old batteries 70 * pi * (21/2)², volume of the new batteries 80 * pi * (46/2)², Volume of new divided by volume of old = ~ 5.5. So the new technology is 5.5x more volume than the old, but only increases energy by 5x? And that some how increases range by 16%? Drink the Kool Aid all you want about how revolutionary a tab-less battery is because the "electrons don't have to travel as far" but you're taking up 5.5x as much space and only giving 5x the energy storage, how does that translate to increased range?

It's the kw/h of the pack as a whole that defines range.

Take the volume of the old cell * number of the old cells in the pack
Take the volume of the new cell * number of new cells that will be able to be fit in the new pack.

If you watch the Sandy Talks video on the battery day, he explains it.
No volume spent on cooling tubes that weave inbetween all of the old cells. This is because tabless allows them to the cooled on the ends where the heat is generated.
Less distance to travel does equal less resistance, that equals less heat generated. Tabless means a flat surface at the end and more efficient cooling.
The batteries themselves are made part of the packs structural integrity, so no steel beams needed inbetween the old separate packs. This is volume now available for batteries.

The new pack will be simpler to make, cheaper, stronger, and have more kw/h capacity.
 

sfsuphysics

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It's the kw/h of the pack as a whole that defines range.

Take the volume of the old cell * number of the old cells in the pack
Take the volume of the new cell * number of new cells that will be able to be fit in the new pack.

If you watch the Sandy Talks video on the battery day, he explains it.
No volume spent on cooling tubes that weave inbetween all of the old cells. This is because tabless allows them to the cooled on the ends where the heat is generated.
Less distance to travel does equal less resistance, that equals less heat generated. Tabless means a flat surface at the end and more efficient cooling.
The batteries themselves are made part of the packs structural integrity, so no steel beams needed inbetween the old separate packs. This is volume now available for batteries.

The new pack will be simpler to make, cheaper, stronger, and have more kw/h capacity.
See this is a little more straight forward and believable, the way that battery day event was hyping these batteries you'd think the batteries are doing more when in fact they're doing less. It's too bad Musk had to be the one talking about this, but ever the showman, he was the Jobs to whomever the engineer who actually designed this (Wozniak). But it kind of says something when any company does big hype events like this it requires some other source to translate everything that is claimed, and much like Apple the Pro-Tesla zombie horde is large and loud too.

But I've seen these battery packs cracked open, it doesn't look like a terribly large amount of space dedicated to cooling, that said I can totally see frame of the whole pack as being a significantly space savings I mean they claim only 16% increase in range.

While beneficial to make the battery part of the car, it does feel very Apple (and yeah now Samsung, Google, etc) like with batteries that can't be serviced easily, especially considering it wasn't too long ago they had a hype day where he was talking and then was like "look it took 3 minutes to swap out the battery" pointing towards the direction of swapable batteries as a way to quick recharge.
 

Lakados

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I thought tesla bought their battery's from Panasonic? Bunch of 18650s to make a single battery pack.
Panasonic couldn't meet their demands, so they teamed with them to build their plants and have since taken off. Tesla's cars are good and all, but their batteries and motors are top-notch the thing everybody else is struggling to catch up too, and the gap is growing faster than not.
 

Verge

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Panasonic couldn't meet their demands, so they teamed with them to build their plants and have since taken off. Tesla's cars are good and all, but their batteries and motors are top-notch the thing everybody else is struggling to catch up too, and the gap is growing faster than not.

Eh, they license that tech from panasonic no?

Same batteries are in the new toyotas are they not?
 

Lakados

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Eh, they license that tech from panasonic no?

Same batteries are in the new toyotas are they not?
They license some things, they have their own for others, I don't know the exact details of what they do or don't do with it but some of the things they license are just so Panasonic doesn't sue them for infringement as they have basically used their tech as a launching point. It's a good deal for both of them either way.
 

Verge

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They license some things, they have their own for others, I don't know the exact details of what they do or don't do with it but some of the things they license are just so Panasonic doesn't sue them for infringement as they have basically used their tech as a launching point. It's a good deal for both of them either way.

The 18650 cells are from panasonic, and manufactured in their factory via an agreement. The same upgraded versions are in the new toyota hybrids. The only thing Tesla does different is package them with their own designs.
 

Smashing Young Man

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You know, I used to think this man was competent. And maybe he was, but ever since he started consorting with celebrities and musicians he has just kind of gone off the deep end.

I can't take anything he says seriously anymore.
I started where you did, came to the point where you are now, and now I'm somewhere else. Musk is basically a science fiction nerd with the actual ability and wherewithal to make some of those sci-fi fantasies a reality. You have to swallow a lot of head-in-the-clouds bullshit from the guy, but I think it's worth choking that shit down for what he's actually given—and in the process of giving—us.
 
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I'd take him over the penny pinchers who take the safe "business route" any day. He's motivated to make things happen. Most 'wise' businessmen just avoid solving the hardest problems looking for the most risk free way to make a profit. For them it's all about getting the financial numbers right.
 

Nafensoriel

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I started where you did, came to the point where you are now, and now I'm somewhere else. Musk is basically a science fiction nerd with the actual ability and wherewithal to make some of those sci-fi fantasies a reality. You have to swallow a lot of head-in-the-clouds bullshit from the guy, but I think it's worth choking that shit down for what he's actually given—and in the process of giving—us.
I disagree. Musk isn't doing a darn thing but talking because his one smart move was to NOT get in front of better engineers. His engineers are making the strides. Do not assume musk has anything to do with it beyond taking credit.

The issues engineers and scientists call out musk so much for is because whenever he opens his mouth its generally horse****. Vacuum trains, 1000km/hr trains. Cold gas thrusters. Starships that can lift 100k ton at a fraction of the price.
Yes his company is making strides in incremental gains for technology everyone else has ignored for five decades but they really have not released a single thing beyond that. Nothing revolutionary has come from musk. Give props to progress... but its not magic, its not special, and it most certainly isn't ground breaking. It's ideas from the 50s/60s that we finally have the proper material sciences to actually test and refine.
 

cdabc123

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I disagree. Musk isn't doing a darn thing but talking because his one smart move was to NOT get in front of better engineers. His engineers are making the strides. Do not assume musk has anything to do with it beyond taking credit.

The issues engineers and scientists call out musk so much for is because whenever he opens his mouth its generally horse****. Vacuum trains, 1000km/hr trains. Cold gas thrusters. Starships that can lift 100k ton at a fraction of the price.
Yes his company is making strides in incremental gains for technology everyone else has ignored for five decades but they really have not released a single thing beyond that. Nothing revolutionary has come from musk. Give props to progress... but its not magic, its not special, and it most certainly isn't ground breaking. It's ideas from the 50s/60s that we finally have the proper material sciences to actually test and refine.
Its getting investors excited enough to back any of the bs that comes out of his mouth. After that it's easy just put the problem on a engineers desk and whatever results, pitch back to the investors in a positive light.
 

TheToE!

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You know, I used to think this man was competent. And maybe he was, but ever since he started consorting with celebrities and musicians he has just kind of gone off the deep end.

I can't take anything he says seriously anymore.
Agreed.
 

GiGaBiTe

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Seems allot of people are out of the loop here. This was a major announcement, they basically killed the legacy car industry in its current form within this generation. Those companies will have to scramble to adapt in the next three years, or otherwise fall off the map within a generation with these advancements in mind.

Why would traditional car companies "scramble to adapt" to Tesla? The only thing they have going for them are their power walls and battery tech. Tesla is a horrible company that makes horrible butt ugly cars and trucks. They treat their customers and employees like shit, and their cars are built like shit. It's like saying tech companies need to scramble to adapt to Apple, not something that benefits anyone. It's hard to tell which company is more anti-consumer, but they rank in the top 2 most anti-consumer companies in the world.

When you buy a Tesla, you never own it. They have full control over your vehicle with E.T. Phone Home©®™ features and can and will blacklist your vehicles VIN if they detect "unauthorized modifications" to the car.
 
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792
Why would traditional car companies "scramble to adapt" to Tesla? The only thing they have going for them are their power walls and battery tech. Tesla is a horrible company that makes horrible butt ugly cars and trucks. They treat their customers and employees like shit, and their cars are built like shit. It's like saying tech companies need to scramble to adapt to Apple, not something that benefits anyone. It's hard to tell which company is more anti-consumer, but they rank in the top 2 most anti-consumer companies in the world.

When you buy a Tesla, you never own it. They have full control over your vehicle with E.T. Phone Home©®™ features and can and will blacklist your vehicles VIN if they detect "unauthorized modifications" to the car.

The worst problem is the incompetent manufacturing process. They spent the most money on machines...yet they also have the highest labor usage. Other than the fact that they have first mover advantage in EVs, they are probably the worst run car company in the world.
 

Wierdo

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jul 2, 2011
Messages
1,815
This was a good laymen's summary about why battery day basically spelled the impending end of the ICE age:

Looks like allot of retail investors are gonna be millionaires riding this generation's Amazon. A blast from the past:
https://twitter.com/xiang_aw/status/1301032188025081858

Same cases of cynicism and doubt, same cases of a group spotting the trend and catching that bus as Wallstreet grumbles and scratches its head about yet another market disruption.

One man's incomprehension is another man's opportunity lol
 
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Axman

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jul 13, 2005
Messages
6,022
the impending end of the ICE age
Hardly. The infrastructure isn't there. You'll have to be able to charge cars wherever they are parked, and that's not going to happen for a good, long time, if ever.
 

1_rick

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Feb 7, 2017
Messages
1,377
Hardly. The infrastructure isn't there. You'll have to be able to charge cars wherever they are parked, and that's not going to happen for a good, long time, if ever.
Exactly. As someone pointed out, in California, they can barely keep the lights on the entire state. Good luck getting rid of ICE engines any time soon.

But beyond that, I had a discussion a while back about how much effort it'll take. We'll ignore questions of whether or not the grid, from one end to the other, is capable of supporting millions of electric cars in major cities, and just look at the logistics of charging. Until I moved last month I lived in a 4-story apartment minitower wrapped around a 5-level parking garage in north Dallas--a pretty dense area. That's something like 500 parking spots. Who's going to pay to install all of them? Can the local subgrid handle 500 people in one building charging all at once? Ok, what about 200--let's spread the charging around the clock. Fine, but my complex had four other parking garages of similar size, and the other two complexes (and the condo tower) right next door had another 5 garages, not to mention all the office towers in a one-mile square, and we haven't even consider all those houses. Even if the grid IS up to it, who knows if there's enough electrical generation capacity, especially when you consider all the NIMBYs and the people who want to shut down all the fossil fuel plants in favor of renewable generation that's only intermittently available.
 
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