Tesla Sued Because 469hp Is Not 700hp

[Semantics]

Doesn't matter in the US atleast, HP is from the crank on a dyno not on the wheel. Plus car makers don't reverify hp when they use the same engine with similar tune they just reuse the same numbers they want regardless of the drive train.

 

[Makaveli@BETA]

About 5-10 minutes of my commute can be done at 120+ mph... just because you can't do it doesn't mean others can't.

O I can but I don't really give a shit about going 120+ Mph for 5-10 mins.

i'm not a high school student with a modified civic trying to impress stupid chicks.

When I want speed I will go to the track and not worry about cops or morons on the road.

 

[Deleted member 93354]

Attaching a car to a dyno isn't the proper way to measure Horsepower, as there are driveline losses.

The proper way to measure horsepower is at the shaft. If they can't pop the motor up on a test stand to do this then....

With electricity 1HP = 746 Watts (assuming 100% efficiency) Most motors only achieve into the 90%s+ for efficiency.

 

[nepenthe]

If their gripe is that is makes 469 at the wheels, then the gripe is incorrect, as I don't know any mass market manufacturer that uses wheel horsepower figures over crank horsepower figures. Even most boutique brands do not.

If that is the case, if you take an awd vehicle with an automatic transmission, you can expect ~25% loss from the drivetrain, and Tesla is racking up about 33% loss.

If you had no care for the drivetrain, you could get a 408hp (at the crank) 1995 911 turbo 0-60 in 3.7 seconds, but it did that carrying around about ~1600 pounds less car than a tesla.

My take, this is like claiming that a car that has 500hp in a manual and 500hp in automatic are defrauding the consumer because the automatic has higher powertain losses.

I agree whole heartedly with this opinion. Unless Tesla specifically advertised 700hp at the wheels - there's really nothing to see here.

 

[Lunas]

Take the two values, add them together. Divide by 2 for the average. Probably more accurate

Yep 476 rear motor 221 front motor for 697 total hp close enough to round to 700 which is what happened here. Divide by 2 you get 348.5 hp

 

[Tsumi]

O I can but I don't really give a shit about going 120+ Mph for 5-10 mins.

i'm not a high school student with a modified civic trying to impress stupid chicks.

When I want speed I will to the track and not worry bout cops or morons on the road.

Neither am I. But I do enjoy the occasional high speed sprint down an empty road.

I agree whole heartedly with this opinion. Unless Tesla specifically advertised 700hp at the wheels - there's really nothing to see here.

They did advertise the sum of each of the motors as the hp. Then they changed that number to be what the motors can actually simultaneously output as designed in the Tesla. Then they removed it altogether.

 

[Liver]

If 400 (ish, exact number not relevant to my question) horsepower is the limit that Tesla can handle due to electrical power inflow, how is the p90d and p100d quicker 0-60? In comparison to the p85d?

Edit. Actually faster in the entire spectrum. 0-60. 60-100. Etc.

Joules.

Anyone?

 

[opfreak]

Anyone?

because on the p90d, and the p100d, they upgraded the electrics that feed the motors.

So the two cars have motors that add up to 700hp, but they electrical supply can (just a swag) provide, 400, 450, 500 hp. depending on the model. A Dodge hellcat engine can at standard temps, air pressure, output the 700+hp the engine is rated for. The Tesla electrics cannot provide 700hp worth of energy.

 

[Lunas]

because on the p90d, and the p100d, they upgraded the electrics that feed the motors.

So the two cars have motors that add up to 700hp, but they electrical supply can (just a swag) provide, 400, 450, 500 hp. depending on the model. A Dodge hellcat engine can at standard temps, air pressure, output the 700+hp the engine is rated for. The Tesla electrics cannot provide 700hp worth of energy.

software limits the motor might have slight differences power rails might be thicker.

 

[thesmokingman]

So the tesla actually has 700hp, but the battery and electrics don't permit using that whole 700hp at the same time? Isn't this fraudulent? It's like the way dual gpu cards are advertised total 8gb vram, 4gb per gpu, but in reality you only have 4gb vram usable. GPU makes have seemed to be able to get away with it because the consumer in this space is intelligent enough to understand how it works. But tesla... there are regulations that they are breaking aren't there?

 

[krotch]

Yep 476 rear motor 221 front motor for 697 total hp close enough to round to 700 which is what happened here. Divide by 2 you get 348.5 hp

Yep, put out that figure. Then everyone will be surprised when it has more power, instead of complaining that it has less than advertised.

Japanese did it with their whole 280 hp gentleman's agreement. STIs, Evos, Skylines, etc are rated for 280, but majority have 300+ when actually dyno'd.

 

[krotch]

software limits the motor might have slight differences power rails might be thicker.

I don't think it has to do with the power output of the batteries, but more to do with the batteries overheating and catching fire. I'm sure they could setup some type of cooling, but that'd just add more weight to an already heavy car.

So the tesla actually has 700hp, but the battery and electrics don't permit using that whole 700hp at the same time? Isn't this fraudulent? It's like the way dual gpu cards are advertised total 8gb vram, 4gb per gpu, but in reality you only have 4gb vram usable. GPU makes have seemed to be able to get away with it because the consumer in this space is intelligent enough to understand how it works. But tesla... there are regulations that they are breaking aren't there?

GPU makers get away with it, cause it is using the total 8 GB vram. It's just that it's mirrored.

 

[N4CR]

I love Supra's so much! My favorite is the Amuse video, thing is spitting fire like a monster all over the track and almost uncontrollable. My s13's never had anything against my buddies mk3

The Japanese tuning companies do some amazing things with those Supras, they are also my favourite, often far more refined and usable than the stuff done these days. Love the sound of 2Js especially when they're on an auto trans going balls out like that. Amazing engine song.
Nearly finished a ls3 jdm s2000 track car lol. Different type of fun, plus most people have never seen an LS swap here. Spread the freedom!

On another note, it's quite funny hearing people bitching about 490whp in the tesla. Sure it's a whale but it moves out hard. That power number is damn impressive and enough to push most smaller cars with acceptable aero, to 190mph+....
Plus they're bitching about not having 700hp - it has more ftlbs of torque than an 800hp max effort NA 496-502 LS based small block v8. GTFO

 

[Liver]

because on the p90d, and the p100d, they upgraded the electrics that feed the motors.

So the two cars have motors that add up to 700hp, but they electrical supply can (just a swag) provide, 400, 450, 500 hp. depending on the model. A Dodge hellcat engine can at standard temps, air pressure, output the 700+hp the engine is rated for. The Tesla electrics cannot provide 700hp worth of energy.

So what's the stated horsepower on a p90d? Is it limited as well?

 

[lostinseganet]

They should start measuring horsepower at the wheels. It would solve a lot of problems, one of which is that testing electric motors outside the car and adding them up is total bullshit.

But cars can have different wheels/rims that would give leeway to advocates on both sides for their view on performance. I think It could be better to test it at the axle.

 

[N4CR]

Thinking this all through again, tesla fucked up. They did what every other manufacturer does listing peak engine power (motor in their case). Problem is their electrical system can't deliver both of these peak outputs from both motors at once, thus making it fraudulent/misleading marketing in that regard. Whoops. Hence the deletion and retraction, they are going to get screwed I'd say.

 

[opfreak]

So what's the stated horsepower on a p90d? Is it limited as well?

I would think they are all limited. Another poster had a link that showed what the original p85d ratings were:

Tesla Modifies Horsepower Ratings For Dual Motor Model S

In the first revison they say its 503hp rear, 259hp front. But then under those ratings it says its BATTERY limited to 532hp in ludicarous mode, and 463hp in normal mode.

Tesla now likes to hide its power ratings.

 

[Quix]

But cars can have different wheels/rims that would give leeway to advocates on both sides for their view on performance. I think It could be better to test it at the axle.

They really don't make a big difference. Besides, all cars come with stock rims so that's not much of an argument. The same argument could be made that because you can replace exhaust systems all testing should be done without exhausts attached. Or really any other component you like.

 

[DedEmbryonicCe11]

The Tesla should be measured separately on the front and rear wheels, and then the two values added together, for an accurate rating. I don't know if they did that. I don't know if there are even any dynos capable of measuring front and rear wheel power completely detached from each other.

They should start measuring horsepower at the wheels. It would solve a lot of problems, one of which is that testing electric motors outside the car and adding them up is total bullshit.

Why combine them at all? Are we saying consumers don't have the brain power to add 4 three-digit numbers with the aid of their smartphones/tablets/etc ? Dyno every wheel independently and give us the wheel hp and torque present at each. It would certainly show off the ways that various 4WD, AWD, XWD, configurations vary.

0-60, 1/4 mile, 30-70, blah blah blah. Every consumer has different needs and there should be way more detailed information available. We'll get there someday, when cars are all self-driving and the testing process is automated as well.

 

[misterbobby]

They advertised the HP all over. 0-60 is a function of traction (AWD) and tq, not of HP. Trap speed is more indicative of HP. That is where the Tesla always fell flat on its face. For "700" HP it was a very slow car. The low trap speeds were right in line with a 470 HP car given its weight. They used to state this on their webpage, but now they don't talk about HP at all anymore.

HP most certainly is a huge part of 0-60 and 1/4 mile times not just trap speed. And the P85D weighs 4900 pounds so the trap speeds were NOT in line with a 470 HP car as the reviews I have seen show 113 to 115 mph trap speed. No way in hell could a 4900 pound car with only 470 horsepower get 113 mph or more in the 1/4 mile and that is a fact. Hell the 2016 Camaro SS has 455 HP and weighs about 1300 pounds less and does 114 in the 1/4 mile.

 

[Tsumi]

HP most certainly is a huge part of 0-60 and 1/4 mile times not just trap speed. And the P85D weighs 4900 pounds so the trap speeds were NOT in line with a 470 HP car as the reviews I have seen show 113 to 115 mph trap speed. No way in hell could a 4900 pound car with only 470 horsepower get 113 mph or more in the 1/4 mile and that is a fact. Hell the 2016 Camaro SS has 455 HP and weighs about 1300 pounds less and does 114 in the 1/4 mile.

Its 0-60 times are an indicator of its broad torque curve and AWD system. The fact that it has such a rapid 0-60, but can only do 1/4 at 114 mph means that it doesn't have the hp to really accelerate it at high speeds. The Charger Hellcat at 700 hp is a full second slower at 0-60, but traps at 124 mph. And the Charger is right around 4500 lbs.