Tesla Sued Because 469hp Is Not 700hp

[Wrecked Em]

The article is lacking how it was measured.
Horsepower in a gas engine is a calculation. Torque output@RPM / 5252= Horsepower. An electric motor produces torque based on load, the more you load it, the more it produces. You cannot simply throw a Tesla on a dyno the same as you would a gas powered car and get correct results.

Yes you can. Power is power. It doesn't matter how it's generated. If the Tesla produces a low number on a dyno, it's because it doesn't make lot of power.

It accelerates quickly because it is able to produce a moderate amount t of power across a huge rpm range, and the dyno will show this.

 

[westrock2000]

This is the problem with Tesla.. what they list on their site is very misleading. I do remember when they used to list HP on their site, but I thought it said the 'equivalent of XXX HP'. Problem is, they are using acceleration 0-60 having the equivalent of a 700HP car. At least that was the impression I got. Take the car from 100-130 and they would probably have to put the 'equivalent of a 300HP car'.

And that is really a bullshit claim. There is no such thing as "equivalent horsepower". HP is derived from Torque, which is a defined measurement....foot pounds. A "foot pound" is not specific to gasoline engines or combustion of any kind. Anything that rotates in a circle can be measured in foot-pounds. The only way a electric motor can be like a 300HP gasoline motor......is to make 300HP

 

[Makaveli@BETA]

Meh why do you need 700 horse power when you will be stuck in traffic and city driving for the majority of it.

I agree that if you say it has this it should.

But in this day and age with all the morons on the roads not really practical on the street.

 

[painintheworld]

It being an electric powered machine, if it isn't capable of outputting 520,000+ watts it isn't making 700hp.

Sears (and many others) used to (still do?) sell shop vacs and advertise them as 5hp, yet ship them with Nema 5-15 cord caps. They were measuring locked rotor power draw...kind of shitty.

 

[HockeyJon]

That much of a gap, yeah, I'd say they have a case. It's straight up false advertising at that point.

 

[Quix]

They should start measuring horsepower at the wheels. It would solve a lot of problems, one of which is that testing electric motors outside the car and adding them up is total bullshit.

 

[brogers]

Yes you can. Power is power. It doesn't matter how it's generated. If the Tesla produces a low number on a dyno, it's because it doesn't make lot of power.

It accelerates quickly because it is able to produce a moderate amount t of power across a huge rpm range, and the dyno will show this.

Exactly! HP = Torque(ft-lbs) * RPM / 5252 This doesn't change whether it is electric or internal combustion. Electric motors are capable of full torque at 1 RPM, but the area under the curve of a HP plot tells you the story. You cannot go by peak HP numbers or torque to determine how fast or quick a car is.

 

[HardOCP News]

Like I said, hitting 120mph in 1/4 of a mile isn't relevant to most people.

You are not talking about "most people." You are talking about people that spent $100,000 on a car that Tesla claims has 700hp. That is the entire problem in a nutshell, not how it is rated, not how fast it goes in 0-60 or a quarter mile...the company claimed 700hp and people paid $100k to get that. Is it stupid? To many people...yes. To the people that plunked down the $100k? Obviously not, they are suing.

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

If their gripe is that is makes 469 at the wheels, then the gripe is incorrect, as I don't know any mass market manufacturer that uses wheel horsepower figures over crank horsepower figures. Even most boutique brands do not.

If that is the case, if you take an awd vehicle with an automatic transmission, you can expect ~25% loss from the drivetrain, and Tesla is racking up about 33% loss.

If you had no care for the drivetrain, you could get a 408hp (at the crank) 1995 911 turbo 0-60 in 3.7 seconds, but it did that carrying around about ~1600 pounds less car than a tesla.

My take, this is like claiming that a car that has 500hp in a manual and 500hp in automatic are defrauding the consumer because the automatic has higher powertain losses.

Hellcat claims X HP and it indeed delivers what it claims (and then some). Auto or manual is irrelevant as the engine outputs claimed power....

 

[Liver]

mostly this

one of my friend's is a huge Tesla fanboy but not well versed in the car scene. I'm big into the modified car scene, and mostly "meh" about the Tesla

All my friend could spew out of his mouth was how amazing the 0-60 time of the Tesla was. That's literally all I could get from him. 0-60mph means nothing these days - we're pretty much at the limit of tire grip off the line these days. 1/4 mile times/traps are much better indications of a car's performance these days.......yet no matter what, all this fanboy friend could tell me is how fast it is to 0-60mph, even with completely silly graphs of "cars that do 0-60 in under 3 seconds" like it meant a damn thing

So I decided to google what the 1/4 mile states were for myself. I went through 3 pages of google results and still couldn't find them. Literally the only people hyped about the Tesla are technology websites. No automotive publications came up in google results.

It's performance figures are NOT ground breaking.

I don't mind if you find the technology of Tesla cars cool and interesting, but don't start spewing how it's shattering performance metrics in the automotive industry...because then you're just spewing nonsense in a field you know nothing about.

YouTube has many Tesla 1/4 mile videos. Look at the times. Real world with amateur drivers, before you say that's not accurate.

 

[Tsumi]

Meh why do you need 700 horse power when you will be stuck in traffic and city driving for the majority of it.

I agree that if you say it has this it should.

But in this day and age with all the morons on the roads not really practical on the street.

About 5-10 minutes of my commute can be done at 120+ mph... just because you can't do it doesn't mean others can't.

 

[krotch]

About 5-10 minutes of my commute can be done at 120+ mph... just because you can't do it doesn't mean others can't.

Same. I also have many locations that have no speed limit. It's called the autobahn. I can also go to the Hockenheimring or Nurburgring. I go to the mountains though, much funner. Where smaller cars with AWD and quick acceleration are better.

I wonder why Tesla doesn't advertise that their car goes into thermal protection mode or whatever, when you decide to push the car more than 5 mins and it limits the power output.

 

[SLee]

I wonder why Tesla doesn't advertise that their car goes into thermal protection mode or whatever, when you decide to push the car more than 5 mins and it limits the power output.

Tesla and some of their fans love to talk about how the Model S can beat this supercar and that supercar in the short acceleration tests but immediately go defensive whenever the topic of track performance gets bring up; track performance being a major reason why supercars are so expensive or why a car like the Ford GT350 are so impressive.

 

[Lunas]

What i'm getting from this is 1st the front and rear need to be dyno separately then those numbers added when that is not how it works
2 people who drive a stupid fast car have no concept of how they get the flashy numbers to sell a car...

The number of situations any Tesla owner would even be able to tell the difference between 500 hp and 700 hp is when they are doing illegal shit in the car or drag racing...

 

[Olle P]

A few comments on the issues:
1. It's perfectly clear that the car can't provide the previously advertised 691 hp.
2. Driving performance do comply with the advertised specs, so the car behaves exactly as could be expected.
The lawsuit reminds me mostly about the debacle with GeForce GTX 970 (not handling all VRAM the same way) a while back.

As for using a dynamometer to measure power:
You can (usually) use one meter to compare different power sources. Do not trust the face value to be true though. Dynamometers are inherently unreliable! (Had a long discussion about this topic on Another forum regarding performance of electric motors.)

As for the issue of using all available power:
Not a problem when you, like everybody around where I live, can pay a few bucks to drive on the local race track once a week. Then only driving skill and car handling/performance set the limit.

 

[M76]

Throw it on an all wheel dyno, that will tell you all you need to know. Our car club has a dyno day at a local performance shop about once a year, $50 gets you 3 pulls and it lets you know right where you are at and gives you bragging rights to boot.

The Tesla should be measured separately on the front and rear wheels, and then the two values added together, for an accurate rating. I don't know if they did that. I don't know if there are even any dynos capable of measuring front and rear wheel power completely detached from each other.

 

[krotch]

Take the two values, add them together. Divide by 2 for the average. Probably more accurate

 

[Prisoner849]

See if it can pull 699 horses galloping the other way.

 

[M76]

Take the two values, add them together. Divide by 2 for the average. Probably more accurate

Why would you average it? You don't want the average power of the axles, you want the total power of the car.

 

[PhotoBobBarker]

Do the motors have the capability of outputting around half a million watts? no? then it fails.

Yes, 568Kw in fact. And to the people who are saying that the battery pack is the limiting factor... Um, no. For any common chemistry li-ion 18650 cell (or most other larger cells or packs) a pulsed discharge rate of 6C is nothing. The only concern is the 3 phase inverter or power cabling. I could see having an issue with trying to fit a 1/2 megawatt 3phase inverter into something that would fit into a reasonably small size to fit into a sedan.

This is the problem with Tesla.. what they list on their site is very misleading. I do remember when they used to list HP on their site, but I thought it said the 'equivalent of XXX HP'. Problem is, they are using acceleration 0-60 having the equivalent of a 700HP car. At least that was the impression I got. Take the car from 100-130 and they would probably have to put the 'equivalent of a 300HP car'.

The 2.5s they list on their site for the P100D is obviously with Ludicrous mode. Not sure how many are familiar with this, but the car doesn't always run in Ludicrous mode like you could with the old Insane mode. Ludicrous mode needs to be activated.. and it's not as simple as just pressing a button to enable it. It takes time to prep the batteries to the optimal temps before it can be activated which can take a few seconds to a few minutes depending on weather etc. Additionally, after 4-5 pulls, the system sometimes drops out of Ludicrous mode and will go back to preparing. At least this is how it was with the P90D Ludicrous.. maybe they improved the system with the P100D.

Well, they have to relate to how most people think. Most people know gas engines, they don't know big electric motors. Most people would look at a 600hp industrial motor and not have a clue what they were even looking at. And because electric motors nd gas motors apply power (torque/speed) so differently you can't give a single "equivalent to" number and have it accurate at more than one point (in this case at a standstill). You mention that the car has to prep the battery to the optimal temperature (heat/cool it). That is true with gas cars as well. Ask any racer (who pays for car maintenance themselves) if they just take their cold car and throw it on the strip. No, that's how you crack engine blocks. They also wouldn't race if the engine was too hot either. So, yes Tesla designed the car to protect the battery pack and motors, like any boutique car designed would/should.

Also just something to think about, At 115MPH the engine of your gas car is going to be 3-6K (depending on gearing), the tesla's motors rotors are spinning at about 13.5K RPM.

 

[c3k]

Tesla lied. For a company to lie on official advertising for an offered product can be prosecuted as fraud. See Nvidia 4GB claims for gtx970.

The only ones defending Tesla are those who are ardent greenies and excuse Tesla any transgression as long as no exhaust is visible near the car. (We can discuss "remote exhaust" somewhere else. )

 

[M76]

Tesla lied. For a company to lie on official advertising for an offered product can be prosecuted as fraud. See Nvidia 4GB claims for gtx970.

The only ones defending Tesla are those who are ardent greenies and excuse Tesla any transgression as long as no exhaust is visible near the car. (We can discuss "remote exhaust" somewhere else. )

But where does this 469hp comes from? Until they present the legitimate certified method of measurement they used there is nothing to talk about.

Claiming it only has 469 hp means nothing. My suspicions tell me that the method of measurement is what is flawed here, and it's not the car that delivers less power.

I'm also ready to believe that tesla pulled the 700hp figure out their asses. Because the car has the performance and dynamic range of a petrol car that has a 700hp petrol engine.

In that case tesla used false advertising, they should've only claimed the the car's performance is equal to a 700hp gas powered sedan. Maybe they did that I never saw the actual adverts claiming 700hp either.

Either way this clickbait article has absolutely zero information, not even to start speculating, let alone draw a conclusion.

 

[krotch]

Why would you average it? You don't want the average power of the axles, you want the total power of the car.

Cause with whatever their measuring is way off. Might as well be way off in the opposite direction.

I'm also ready to believe that tesla pulled the 700hp figure out their asses. Because the car has the performance and dynamic range of a petrol car that has a 700hp petrol engine.

In that case tesla used false advertising, they should've only claimed the the car's performance is equal to a 700hp gas powered sedan. Maybe they did that I never saw the actual adverts claiming 700hp either.

Either way this clickbait article has absolutely zero information, not even to start speculating, let alone draw a conclusion.

My guess, they didn't measure at all. They just took a 700 hp car and launched it from 0-60 mph. Then they did it with their car and was like. "Oh, about the same. Guess our car is equivalent to 700 hp."

If they did, that'd be a stupid way of measuring, since launching their car has more to do with the instant torque and lack of gears than it's actual power output. As for the rest of the performance, can't be doing timed laps on a track, cause the car will limit itself when the batteries overheat and it's weight would play into it's turning abilities.

I have no idea, never driven one in a sporty setting.

 

[DukenukemX]

Throw it on an all wheel dyno, that will tell you all you need to know. Our car club has a dyno day at a local performance shop about once a year, $50 gets you 3 pulls and it lets you know right where you are at and gives you bragging rights to boot.

$50 is pretty cheap. Hmm, I always wondered what my Vette does.

 

[Jorona]

Industry standard is to put the power plant on a dyno and run it.

What's the difference between putting a 500hp engine on the dyno and a 500 hp motor on the dyno?

An Engine that dyno'd 500hp, might only put 350hp down because of atmospheric conditions, transmission, fuel grade, fuel quality, etc ,etc... No manufacturer guarantees HP output. The engine is CAPABLE of output at 500 HP. The motor ITSELF is capable of 500 HP. Just because something else is letting it down, doesn't change the fact that the motor is CAPABLE of 500 HP.

You don't see anyone complaining that the Challenger Hellcat pulls so much timing during shifts that it goes down too the 300hp realm so it doesn't lunch the gearbox. The Tesla pulls output so the thing doesn't ruin the batteries. Same concept.

 

[NIVO]

"Light speed is too slow. We'll have to go right to ludicrous speed."

 

[amddragonpc]

Those owners bought the hype and are now getting burned. "Insane" and "Ludicrous" modes?!? Sorry, but that's not reality.

 

[Vashypooh]

I am curious if Tesla got to "700" by adding the results from the front motor and the rear motor together.

Regardless, as people have said that car P85D was 11 1/4 mile, and the P100D is 10sec 1/4 mile. The P90D beats the Hellcat in the 1/4 mile.

Electric cars simply work differently.

This lawsuit is people trying to subsidize their car. They know damn well it's got power.

Also here is an article on Dyno with a P85D: Tesla Model S P85D Shocks the Dyno with 864 ft-lbs of Torque

 

[N4CR]

imagine if you could stay @ 6800 rpms from 0-150 in any car. thats what CVT's were designed for, because if CVT's didnt totally suck, they'd be amazing for everybody.

High stalls are quite like that..

 

[Mugato]

High stalls are quite like that..

I love Supra's so much! My favorite is the Amuse video, thing is spitting fire like a monster all over the track and almost uncontrollable. My s13's never had anything against my buddies mk3

 

[Tsumi]

Industry standard is to put the power plant on a dyno and run it.

What's the difference between putting a 500hp engine on the dyno and a 500 hp motor on the dyno?

An Engine that dyno'd 500hp, might only put 350hp down because of atmospheric conditions, transmission, fuel grade, fuel quality, etc ,etc... No manufacturer guarantees HP output. The engine is CAPABLE of output at 500 HP. The motor ITSELF is capable of 500 HP. Just because something else is letting it down, doesn't change the fact that the motor is CAPABLE of 500 HP.

You don't see anyone complaining that the Challenger Hellcat pulls so much timing during shifts that it goes down too the 300hp realm so it doesn't lunch the gearbox. The Tesla pulls output so the thing doesn't ruin the batteries. Same concept.

Apples to oranges. The Hellcat can actually output its full rated horsepower while driving it, while the Tesla is never capable of its claimed 700 HP output. I remember reading on the Tesla website that the HP ratings were changed because the motors cannot operate at 100% capacity simultaneously. The original HP numbers was a sum of what each of the individual motors were capable of. Later it was changed because summing it is inaccurate, and now it looks like all references to HP has been removed. Also, as said earlier, there is no way that the Tesla's drivetrain causes a 30+% loss in horsepower, it is probably one of the most efficient drivetrains there is.

 

[nightanole]

Eh ford did this crap. People started dynoing and they were 150-200hp short. Ford did them right and installed all new exhaust and intake etc, and DAM were they fast after the fix.

 

[Jagger100]

If their gripe is that is makes 469 at the wheels, then the gripe is incorrect, as I don't know any mass market manufacturer that uses wheel horsepower figures over crank horsepower figures. Even most boutique brands do not.

If that is the case, if you take an awd vehicle with an automatic transmission, you can expect ~25% loss from the drivetrain, and Tesla is racking up about 33% loss.

If you had no care for the drivetrain, you could get a 408hp (at the crank) 1995 911 turbo 0-60 in 3.7 seconds, but it did that carrying around about ~1600 pounds less car than a tesla.

My take, this is like claiming that a car that has 500hp in a manual and 500hp in automatic are defrauding the consumer because the automatic has higher powertain losses.

Show me a vehicle where the AWD version is 25% loss? Possibly a 25% loss at vehicle cruise, no where near full output which is the scenario this one cares about. The Driveline would be cooked.

 

[Wrecked Em]

For what it's worth, Fisker did the same thing. They added the ic and electric motor ratings, but later owners discovered the motor controller(?) only pulled enough current to operate the motor at about 2/3 its rated power. I guess the difference is that Fisker wasn't heavily marketing the car's performance numbers, so the owners didn't care.

 

[Todd Walter]

0-60 times are much more important in daily driving than 1/4 mile times, just saying.

I'd say 40 to 70 is the more relevant figure as that's a typical ramp to highway speed transition. Part-throttle acceleration on an incline is what I notice most because the highway to the office is all uphill!

 

[Jagger100]

Could be Peak vs. Continuous. You get 700 at first few hundred milliseconds of launch so you get that head snapping instant feel then it pulls back to a sustainable level.

 

[Todd Walter]

Could be Peak vs. Continuous. You get 700 at first few hundred milliseconds of launch so you get that head snapping instant feel then it pulls back to a sustainable level.

That's the problem with this sort of measurement. It's like the pickup truck commercials that claim they can tow 30000lbs and leave off the pertinent part; "...and then the differential explodes."

Torque moves vehicles down the road; horsepower just moves them off the lot.

 

[drakken]

horse power is a simplier way of explaing jeules and newtons, and there is dervived power and actually power at the tire. most car companies use actually power at the tire which can be measured on a dyno machine. 700 horse power at the tire is some serious torque, which does not necessarily translate into speed.

 

[Liver]

If 400 (ish, exact number not relevant to my question) horsepower is the limit that Tesla can handle due to electrical power inflow, how is the p90d and p100d quicker 0-60? In comparison to the p85d?

Edit. Actually faster in the entire spectrum. 0-60. 60-100. Etc.

Joules.

 

[opfreak]

problem Tesla has, is on a motor dyno, a normal car can output its rated power. The tesla motor if feed by its standard battery cannot.

It would be like putting a tiny fuel pump on a 700hp car, so that the engine can only produce 500hp.