Tesla Reveals How Much Using Its Supercharger Network Will Cost

[thejokker]

Do you really think that they're going to take a hit in profitability to save the environment? I don't. It's a pipe dream. Sooner or later costs are going to be cut. If they manage to cut the combustion engine dominance all bets are off. Prices will rise and the high demand for electricity is going to make every day living much more expensive (while at the same time coal is burned more and more to run those cars).

The 'hit' is not acceptable especially when you consider that you're going to be range limited to begin with. Instead of having to stop for refuel and a coffee for 10 minutes you have to spend potentially 3-4 hours IF you're lucky enough to find a gas station that allows you to use their 16 amp plug lol. Super stations are about as rare as hydrogen refill stations as we speak.

In the worst case you're stranded in the middle of nowhere at -30c and having to wait for a diesel flatbed to come and pick your car up.

Here's a hypothetical for you:

Imagine a world where we has many electric cars as gasoline cars. Now image the pollution generated by producing and disposing of that many toxic batteries. Electric cars are not green...

 

[thejokker]

While electric vehicles are not practical for my families usage, I absolutely look forward to the day of not ever having to do an oil change or timing belt change again!

Check out the cost of replacing the batteries in an electric car when they are worn out...

 

[Snowdog]

Not a big fan of this change. There's just no way to justify spending 100k+ if I have to also pay for charging my car on trips, which is actually typically inconvenient since many chargers are out of the way. They say you get the first 400kwh free, which is roughly 1000miles, but I can beat that easily in one summer. I expect to keep my car around for a long time now since I'm grandfathered into free supercharging. They should have limited this to the Model 3 owners.

Yes, I am sure it the loss of free charging that is going to stop you from buying a $100K Tesla.

 

[rgMekanic]

I'll keep driving the same truck I bought 18 years ago. Or my Vette. Or the Wifes Liberty.. or my Mustang if I ever finish the cage in it.

IMHO the best solution to fuel type stuff is small diesel, or even better, small diesel hybrids. Hell I can buy a 1987 Sprint and get the same mileage as a Prius.

The problem with modern cars is weight, not the engine.

 

[WorldExclusive]

Thinking about gas mileage always ends up with a car I don't want to own. Hard to live life looking at the MPG screen all day.
I'll drive my new TITAN truck and future GTR until gas engines become illegal to drive.

But I am interested in knowing more about the future Telsa truck.

 

[B00nie]

I'll keep driving the same truck I bought 18 years ago. Or my Vette. Or the Wifes Liberty.. or my Mustang if I ever finish the cage in it.

IMHO the best solution to fuel type stuff is small diesel, or even better, small diesel hybrids. Hell I can buy a 1987 Sprint and get the same mileage as a Prius.

The problem with modern cars is weight, not the engine.

The problem with old cars is that they're light because they're death traps. You smash your muscle car with a small Toyota and chances are only the Toyota driver walks away.

 

[rgMekanic]

The problem with old cars is that they're light because they're death traps. You smash your muscle car with a small Toyota and chances are only the Toyota driver walks away.

They're light because I don't need 400lbs of wiring for ipod integration and rain sensing wipers or a little lamp to tell me to check my fucking tire pressure.

 

[B00nie]

They're light because I don't need 400lbs of wiring for ipod integration and rain sensing wipers or a little lamp to tell me to check my fucking tire pressure.

No, they're light because they don't have NCAP regulation crash zones, air bags and high tension steel reinforcements protecting the occupants

 

[mrwizardno2]

Does Tesla even publish the number of charge cycles a pack is capable of? Couldn't you just "swap" it at one of those stations where they offer quick swap vs super charging, or do they not actually do that?

 

[Armenius]

Wait it's cheaper than gas and you guys are still complaining. It cost me 10c a mile in my current car and that's since gas started dropping. It used to be 20c. This is waaaay cheaper. Also a model s will smoke almost any car on the market in performance. If this were a GPU it be a god damned Titan XP using 1050 power and you guys would complain. Get hard or go home ffs.

Smokes in initial acceleration runs, then it overheats and drives as well as a Prius. If the Tesla were a video card it would need to cool down for 2 hours after every 90 second benchmark run.

No, they're light because they don't have NCAP regulation crash zones, air bags and high tension steel reinforcements protecting the occupants

It's a combination of all those things.

 

[rgMekanic]

No, they're light because they don't have NCAP regulation crash zones, air bags and high tension steel reinforcements protecting the occupants

Everything I own that is street driven has air bags.

Everything I own has an actual frame. Not a unibody.

Mustang is going SFI 25.5

 

[B00nie]

Everything I own that is street driven has air bags.

Everything I own has an actual frame. Not a unibody.

Mustang is going SFI 25.5

Crash safety has nothing to do with frames or unibodies. It's about reinforcement zones and crumple zones. There is a huge difference even if you look at a 1 year old and a 4 year old car. Crash saftey has progressed in huge leaps.

Cars that have frames can be so stiff that the impact forces on the occupants grow to deadly levels. If the frame/body doesn't deform and absorb the kinetic energy, passengers take the hit instead.

Old Volvos were regarded to be tanks. Yet when one is tested against a new small car, the Volvo gets deformed to hell while the new car is crushed but the survival zone in the cabin is untouched.

Now, talking about Tesla... I wouldn't want to be in a crash sitting on a ton of lithium batteries that erupt like volcanoes if breached lol.

 

[westrock2000]

No, they're light because they don't have NCAP regulation crash zones, air bags and high tension steel reinforcements protecting the occupants

Don't forget people crossing the road. Have to protect them too.

 

[Wierdo]

Here's a hypothetical for you:

Imagine a world where we has many electric cars as gasoline cars. Now image the pollution generated by producing and disposing of that many toxic batteries. Electric cars are not green...

Here's some details on how the recycling these batteries breaks things down:
https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program

we can reuse about 10% of the battery pack (by weight), e.g. the battery case and some electronic components. In North America we work with Kinsbursky Brothers to recycle about 60 percent of the battery pack...
...able to save at least 70 percent on CO2 emissions at the recovery and refining of these valuable metals. It does this by creating “products” and “byproducts,” rather than following a mechanical separation process.

All in all, similar production footprint vs producing a regular car, but then no gasoline pollution during operation. High level of recycling ability on the batteries after typically 10+ years of use.

Some EVs are lasting over half a million miles so far on their original batteries, the end of the battery's "life" just means they hit 70-80% original charge capacity, they can still be used for a long time afterwards if one chooses to do so:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378775315000841

For instance at 80% remaining energy storage capacity the results in Fig. 14 suggest that less than 5% of drivers' daily needs will no longer be met, thereby suggesting that less than 5% of batteries may actually need to be retired at this level of capacity fade.

 

[Grahamkracka]

//snip//

HOW DARE YOU USE DATA IN AN ARGUMENT

 

[auntjemima]

This is from my November bill:

16 cents for the 1st 300kwh
23 cents for the next 291kwh
29 cents for anything over that

And you wonder why I laugh when people who live near me talk about the cost savings of an electrical car?

FYI: due to the high costs I've tried to make the house as energy efficient as possible. But since I have a Wife/kids at home all day there is only so much I can do.
The November bill was 591kwh, which came out to $115.
Based on your pricing it would have only been $18

What state do you live in... I might need to move.

Damn. Our bills are based on time usage and the highest is 18c per kilowatt. Gross.

 

[B00nie]

Here's some details on how the recycling these batteries breaks things down:
https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program



All in all, similar production footprint vs producing a regular car, but then no gasoline pollution during operation. High level of recycling ability on the batteries after typically 10+ years of use.

Some EVs are lasting over half a million miles so far on their original batteries, the end of the battery's "life" just means they hit 70-80% original charge capacity, they can still be used for a long time afterwards if one chooses to do so:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378775315000841

Lie, bigger lie ,statistic.

You mean that 5% of drivers were no longer able to _arrive where they wanted to go_ due to having insufficient battery capacity. That's like taking your car to a desert and running out of fuel with no refueling station and no extra gas with you. Pretty much an unacceptable situation even if it was 1% of the users. And the statistic doesn't take into account at all the huge amount of wasted hours people have had to wait for their battery packs to recharge before they _could_ go somewhere again.

 

[Lifelite]

Lots of Tesla haters here it seems, with a whole bunch of false claims. Whatever lol.

Anyways, Tesla so far is barely turning a profit right now. They've taken losses for so many years trying to jump start the electric car market, and they are just now becoming profitable. They want to expand and not go back in the hole, so that cost is likely going to fall to owners of this new affordable Model 3 they are releasing.

Meanwhile, all of their patents are free to use. Hard to see much that's bad about Tesla.

 

[nutzo]

Allow me to show off

Switched last summer to a new provider and prices have been just swell

Texas, that's what I though (in a good way).

I replaced my 20+ year old Air conditioner last year due to the high power usage.
Only used 723 kwh in August with is about half what I used last year. If I used as much as you di, my bill would have been over $900

 

[Wierdo]

Lie, bigger lie ,statistic.

You mean that 5% of drivers were no longer able to _arrive where they wanted to go_ due to having insufficient battery capacity. That's like taking your car to a desert and running out of fuel with no refueling station and no extra gas with you. Pretty much an unacceptable situation even if it was 1% of the users. And the statistic doesn't take into account at all the huge amount of wasted hours people have had to wait for their battery packs to recharge before they _could_ go somewhere again.

Oooo spooky science.

The numbers are there, they're about the overall market not specifically your own case, it's really your job to figure out how your personal usage patterns fall. All they did was figure out how degradation affects people depending on where they fall in usage norms, how yours match or differ from the different groups broken down in the paper is of no importance to the bigger picture.

Feel free to read the research paper linked, I just summarized parts relevant to the discussion from a larger set of data provided.

As for wasting time, I don't think you see how this changes refueling habits: You don't take half an hour of your time to drive to a gas station, you just go home and plug the car like a big cellphone, wake up in the morning and it's full and ready. The recharge stations are merely there for long trips out of town or in case you need 150-250 extra miles in half an hour for whatever emergency. It's an appliance on wheels, plugs into any socket.

It's fun to just grab a nugget and run with it, making various assumptions, but come on.

 

[B00nie]

Oooo spooky science.

The numbers are there, they're about the overall market not specifically your own case, it's really your job to figure out how your personal usage patterns fall. All they did was figure out how degradation affects people depending on where they fall in usage norms, how yours match or differ from the different groups broken down in the paper is of no importance to the bigger picture.

Feel free to read the research paper linked, I just summarized parts relevant to the discussion from a larger set of data provided.

As for wasting time, I don't think you see how this changes refueling habits: You don't take half an hour of your time to drive to a gas station, you just go home and plug the car like a big cellphone, wake up in the morning and it's full and ready. The recharge stations are merely there for long trips out of town or in case you need 150-250 extra miles in half an hour for whatever emergency. It's an appliance on wheels, plugs into any socket.

It's fun to just grab a nugget and run with it, making various assumptions, but come on.

You must be one of those 9-5 workers who live in urban area and never leave the comfort of their city, right? So you're saying you never need your car more than once a day so you can plug the car in and leave it to load? When the battery drains (and it's a when) you're stuck with no car for several hours, especially if you don't happen to own a supercharger. Plan two longer trips on adjacent days? Better make sure where ever you stay for the night has a good outlet and a large fuse AND they give you a permission to load the thing with their electricity.

Of course, things get a bit complicated if the same hotel has another customer that also drives a Tesla. How about two, three more? Someone's going to be out of electricityy...

 

[IcePickFreak]

I'd be all for electric if it was a viable replacement. But just like the "auto-pilot" or whatever it's called this week, what about the huge swath of the country that see's snow and freezing temps a good portion of the year? How much am I going to be paying for electricity for my house when, say, even 25% of the vehicles on the road are electric and drive the price up?

I'm not hating on Tesla, I actually applaud what they're doing. But I don't live in California or Florida where it's fair-weather & sunny year round so currently their vehicles are a toy to me, much like a motorcycle or sports car I only get to drive on nice summer days.

 

[thejokker]

Oooo spooky science.

The numbers are there, they're about the overall market not specifically your own case, it's really your job to figure out how your personal usage patterns fall. All they did was figure out how degradation affects people depending on where they fall in usage norms, how yours match or differ from the different groups broken down in the paper is of no importance to the bigger picture.

Feel free to read the research paper linked, I just summarized parts relevant to the discussion from a larger set of data provided.

As for wasting time, I don't think you see how this changes refueling habits: You don't take half an hour of your time to drive to a gas station, you just go home and plug the car like a big cellphone, wake up in the morning and it's full and ready. The recharge stations are merely there for long trips out of town or in case you need 150-250 extra miles in half an hour for whatever emergency. It's an appliance on wheels, plugs into any socket.

It's fun to just grab a nugget and run with it, making various assumptions, but come on.

Of course the numbers are projections and estimates. Actual numbers may vary (widely) as real data becomes available over time. By the way, who takes a half and hour of their time to refuel? 99% of the people stop at a gas station along the way to someplace and refill. It takes about 5 minutes and can be done anytime anywhere.

You neglected to address the toxicity of Telsa car batteries. From the economists "Motley Fool":

"Do you want cancer with that battery?
Recently, the Environmental Protection Agency and the U.S. Department of Energy undertook a study to look at the environmental impact of lithium-ion batteries for EVs. The study showed that batteries that use cathodes with nickel and cobalt, as well as solvent-based electrode processing, have the highest potential for environmental impacts, including resource depletion, global warming, ecological toxicity, and human health. The largest contributing processes include those associated with the production, processing, and use of cobalt and nickel metal compounds, which may cause adverse respiratory, pulmonary, and neurological effects in those exposed. "

http://www.fool.com/investing/gener...rs-dirty-little-secret-is-a-major-proble.aspx
http://www.fool.com/investing/gener...rs-dirty-little-secret-is-a-major-proble.aspx
The batteries are not quite as toxic as nuclear waste. It's a "feature"...

 

[Wierdo]

You must be one of those 9-5 workers who live in urban area and never leave the comfort of their city, right? So you're saying you never need your car more than once a day so you can plug the car in and leave it to load? When the battery drains (and it's a when) you're stuck with no car for several hours, especially if you don't happen to own a supercharger. Plan two longer trips on adjacent days? Better make sure where ever you stay for the night has a good outlet and a large fuse AND they give you a permission to load the thing with their electricity.

Of course, things get a bit complicated if the same hotel has another customer that also drives a Tesla. How about two, three more? Someone's going to be out of electricityy...

Dude, nobody designs a new product that caters to Santa Claus by the north pole, if your schedule involves traveling 500 miles every day, uphill both ways, then maybe this is not the ideal product for you.

Most people like myself just need 100 miles a day, 200 miles max, it's the perk of being in the mainstream market, they get the new toys first.

Many things such as fast internet and airports next door are things allot of people take for granted, but move a couple hours out of the way and you fall out of mainstream, surprise surprise! That's your lifestyle choice, pros and cons.

In a similar fashion cars in general are just as useless in some big cities due to air quality and crowded streets, people rely heavily on public transportation, but I wouldn't make a silly claim that with such a use case the automobile is pointless, there's more to a city than downtown, and there's more to the country than Alaska and Montana.

Again, if you're in a niche then move on, others will just take advantage of this progress a little earlier that's all, some day a solution may come from it that fits your needs as well, who knows. They're already at 315 mile range today, they're already talking about tripling charge speeds, and by around 2025 the cost of producing an EV is estimated to go below that of ICE vehicles, so bye bye horsie:

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/14/elec...intenance-costs-are-lower-says-tony-seba.html

...expected the cost of an electric vehicle to fall to about $30,000 by 2020, compared with the $33,000 current median price of a new ICE car in the U.S. By 2022, a low-end EV would be available for as little as $22,000...
...the "marginal cost" of owning an EV was essentially zero because maintenance costs were so low, noting that while ICE cars had more than 2,000 moving parts, EVs had about 20, making for few breakdowns.

 

[Armenius]

Dude, nobody designs a new product that caters to Santa Claus by the north pole, if your schedule involves traveling 500 miles every day, uphill both ways, then maybe this is not the ideal product for you.

Most people like myself just need 100 miles a day, 200 miles max, it's the perk of being in the mainstream market, they get the new toys first.

Many things such as fast internet and airports next door are things allot of people take for granted, but move a couple hours out of the way and you fall out of mainstream, surprise surprise! That's your lifestyle choice, pros and cons.

In a similar fashion cars in general are just as useless in some big cities due to air quality and crowded streets, people rely heavily on public transportation, but I wouldn't make a silly claim that with such a use case the automobile is pointless, there's more to a city than downtown, and there's more to the country than Alaska and Montana.

Again, if you're in a niche then move on, others will just take advantage of this progress a little earlier that's all, some day a solution may come from it that fits your needs as well, who knows. They're already at 315 mile range today, they're already talking about tripling charge speeds, and by around 2025 the cost of producing an EV is estimated to go below that of ICE vehicles, so bye bye horsie:

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/14/elec...intenance-costs-are-lower-says-tony-seba.html

Now they just need to design a good looking EV. They're finally making some good looking hybrids. Hopefully EV design doesn't take as long to catch up.

 

[Wierdo]

Of course the numbers are projections and estimates. Actual numbers may vary (widely) as real data becomes available over time. By the way, who takes a half and hour of their time to refuel? 99% of the people stop at a gas station along the way to someplace and refill. It takes about 5 minutes and can be done anytime anywhere.

Half an hour when going on trips out of town. Zero hours when charging at home. Like I said, different way of thinking about cars, they're just big cellphones, throw it in the charger and forget it.

As I mentioned earlier, I like stopping every few hours to stretch and grab a bite on long trips, it's unhealthy and reckless imho to drive nonstop, so half an hour every three hours is not a big deal on a long trip.

You neglected to address the toxicity of Telsa car batteries. From the economists "Motley Fool":

No I did not, I said they are very highly recyclable, so they mostly go back to newer batteries or get reused in other applications, the material in these batteries is valuable and easy to recycle, they don't throw them away. But if there's a need to elaborate further on the other benefits, try this:

http://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-nealer/gasoline-vs-electric-global-warming-emissions-953

From cradle to grave, battery-electric vehicles are cleaner. On average, battery electric vehicles (BEVs) representative of those sold today produce less than half the global warming emissions of comparable gasoline-powered vehicles, even when the higher emissions associated with BEV manufacturing are taken into consideration. Based on modeling of the two most popular BEVs available today and the regions where they are currently being sold, excess manufacturing emissions are offset within 6 to 16 months of driving.

This is even before factoring in the benefits from the energy grid rapidly moving to cleaner sources.

 

[Wierdo]

Now they just need to design a good looking EV. They're finally making some good looking hybrids. Hopefully EV design doesn't take as long to catch up.

I agree, the traditional auto manufacturers have this weird obsession with making their lazy "compliance" cars look like ass, but I'm sure they'll see where things are headed and start taking it seriously.

 

[Ranulfo]

Many things such as fast internet and airports next door are things allot of people take for granted, but move a couple hours out of the way and you fall out of mainstream, surprise surprise! That's your lifestyle choice, pros and cons.

That argument works so long as you don't have standards based on CA's weather/pollution issues applied to the rest of the country. Your lifestyle choice will be legislated away. Already seeing that with the laws on diesel/gas engines and safety requirements. Why does VW play games with their software? To benefit themselves and their customers over stupid regs/laws made up by idiots who follow an agenda and not science fact/reality.

around 2025 the cost of producing an EV is estimated to go below that of ICE vehicles, so bye bye horsie:

Yes, I'm sure government subsidies won't be helping that to occur either. Again, where/how are you going to generate all the extra electricity? The EPA has been killing coal. We've got people here in the Northwest who hate coal carrying trains, natural gas, and even the main reason we have cheap power, hydro.

That's a shade of 70s deja vu right there, Japanese autos considered a joke the few years before they almost ran Detroit out of business, with heavy import tariffs rushed in to save them from their complacency, how embarrassing.

We can write the Chinese EV makers off for skimping on an airbag today, but without motivation and initiative internally it may only be a matter of time before history repeats itself.

http://wardsauto.com/news-analysis/foreign-invasion-imports-transplants-change-auto-industry-forever

Heh, MAY. The Chinese are not the Japanese, just see the whole Fellowes shredder factory in China story. Tthe safety reg changes will also be a factor. China can make nice cheap cars because of labor costs but that their cars are at 1990 or so level safety requirements.

The problem with old cars is that they're light because they're death traps. You smash your muscle car with a small Toyota and chances are only the Toyota driver walks away.

Yes, its all about cost/safety levels. Shouldn't you have a choice? A 1990 Geo Metro will beat out a Prius on gas mileage. You pay more for the safety in raw costs for manufacture, performance costs because of increased weight (despite lighter construction materials) and repairs will often cost more. Hell, they want to mandate rear view cameras for safety. Thats $100 cost increase right there (that dealers/makers will mark up I'm sure).

 

[Rebel44]

Do you really think that they're going to take a hit in profitability to save the environment? I don't. It's a pipe dream. Sooner or later costs are going to be cut. If they manage to cut the combustion engine dominance all bets are off. Prices will rise and the high demand for electricity is going to make every day living much more expensive (while at the same time coal is burned more and more to run those cars).

The 'hit' is not acceptable especially when you consider that you're going to be range limited to begin with. Instead of having to stop for refuel and a coffee for 10 minutes you have to spend potentially 3-4 hours IF you're lucky enough to find a gas station that allows you to use their 16 amp plug lol. Super stations are about as rare as hydrogen refill stations as we speak.

In the worst case you're stranded in the middle of nowhere at -30c and having to wait for a diesel flatbed to come and pick your car up.

1. hit on profitibility? - I dont think so - by having a highly automated recyclyng facility that is optimized to recycle a specific product + by avoiding shipping thing across the world a few times + not having to pay for middleman (and their profit) Tesla is likely to save money by recycling - lets remember that nickel, cadmium, lithium etc. are faily valuable materials and that recycling batteries will save Tesla cost of having to buyt those materials from supplier.

2. Ever heard of "stranded assets"? They are not a popular thing among investors, which is why nobody will build a new coal powered power plant in the West. And EV owners can be incentivized (by lower prices) to charge at time when there is low demand or extra supply - like at night, or when some unstable renewable energy is producing inconveniently too much electricity.

3. There are about 20 times as many SC stations compared to number of hydrogen stations (btw.: how did you come up with such a stupid idea?)

4. In the worst case, you are stuck in the middle of nowhere at -30c and having to wait for a diesel flatbed to come and pick your car up no matter what car you drive....

 

[Rebel44]

Here's a hypothetical for you:

Imagine a world where we has many electric cars as gasoline cars. Now image the pollution generated by producing and disposing of that many toxic batteries. Electric cars are not green...

Ever heard of recycling? Thats what is being done even with current 10v lead acid car batteries and those are a hell of a lot less valuable to recycly than EV batteries.

And you have clearly never seen a modern battery factory - they are pretty clean.

 

[Rebel44]

Check out the cost of replacing the batteries in an electric car when they are worn out...

Which doesnt happen except for Nissan Leaf which used idiotic design.

Everyone now cover their EV batteries with 8+ year warranty and and based on data from EVs that have travelled a significant distance (100+K miles) we can determine that degradation isnt a big problem in properly designed long range EVs.

 

[Wierdo]

Heh, MAY. The Chinese are not the Japanese, just see the whole Fellowes shredder factory in China story. Tthe safety reg changes will also be a factor. China can make nice cheap cars because of labor costs but that their cars are at 1990 or so level safety requirements.

That's not really a difficult challenge, they just lose out on some of their cost cutting measures, they got room to bump the sticker price for the US market to accommodate it.

They just don't need to worry about it as much in their local market, if the safety requirements are lax the companies will do the minimum they can get away with, no surprise. Companies adjust their design to cater to different markets all the time.

At least two of the big EV companies there have indicated they plan to enter the US market soon, so they seem quite confident in their abilities. One of them is already selling EV buses to some big cities here so obviously they already got their homework done.

As far as their cheap labor is concerned, it's strange but they're already pushing heavily into automation despite their cheap labor, I guess they're tired of erecting suicide nets. But it makes one wonder how much profit there is in automation down here if China's already so head over heels for it already.

 

[SLee]

Half an hour when going on trips out of town. Zero hours when charging at home. Like I said, different way of thinking about cars, they're just big cellphones, throw it in the charger and forget it.

To fairly compare with liquid fuels, you should also count the time you spend plugging and unplugging the electric charger, even at home since that also adds up over a year.

As I mentioned earlier, I like stopping every few hours to stretch and grab a bite on long trips, it's unhealthy and reckless imho to drive nonstop, so half an hour every three hours is not a big deal on a long trip.s.

If you're driving three hours, then you likely need an hour of charging due to the nature of batteries charging slower as they get fuller. You may also run into issues with crowed charging stations on busy roads and holidays. Or charging stations are not situated in areas that follow your desired route.

 

[Wierdo]

To fairly compare with liquid fuels, you should also count the time you spend plugging and unplugging the electric charger, even at home since that also adds up over a year.

If I had to estimate for me personally: 30 seconds x maybe 2-6 times a week (so lets say 4) = 2 minutes a week. So around a couple hours a year in total give or take.

Not really a big deal. Haven't even considered the occasional waiting lines at a gas pump when it's busy or driving a bit out of my way in traffic to get there etc.

If you're driving three hours, then you likely need an hour of charging due to the nature of batteries charging slower as they get fuller. You may also run into issues with crowed charging stations on busy roads and holidays. Or charging stations are not situated in areas that follow your desired route.

Perhaps it would mean 2.5 hr stops worst case, or I'd have to bump the battery up to hit the sweet spot I want, we'll see. I'd rather spend that cash on the dual motor setup for the winter traction though to be honest.

The crowded charging stations can be a concern sure. Too early to tell how that will look like in a couple years, but they keep expanding the superchargers to reduce the potential, there was a crowded one that went from 4 to 12 spots recently around here, that's promising if they do it across the network in trouble spots as planned.

The supercharger utilization tracker should be part of the mapping features soon, that helps with planning as well.

In the end we're talking about a couple trips out of town where this would matter really. I don't like rushing when I travel, it's nice to enjoy the scenery when we get the chance to go on a road trip.

Having a silent car with the windows rolled down would just add to the experience I imagine, I really wanna try that at a national park or two around here, just drive down the empty park roads, feeling the breeze while shades of green roll by.

 

[B00nie]

1. hit on profitibility? - I dont think so - by having a highly automated recyclyng facility that is optimized to recycle a specific product + by avoiding shipping thing across the world a few times + not having to pay for middleman (and their profit) Tesla is likely to save money by recycling - lets remember that nickel, cadmium, lithium etc. are faily valuable materials and that recycling batteries will save Tesla cost of having to buyt those materials from supplier.

2. Ever heard of "stranded assets"? They are not a popular thing among investors, which is why nobody will build a new coal powered power plant in the West. And EV owners can be incentivized (by lower prices) to charge at time when there is low demand or extra supply - like at night, or when some unstable renewable energy is producing inconveniently too much electricity.

3. There are about 20 times as many SC stations compared to number of hydrogen stations (btw.: how did you come up with such a stupid idea?)

4. In the worst case, you are stuck in the middle of nowhere at -30c and having to wait for a diesel flatbed to come and pick your car up no matter what car you drive....

1) And it's free to build a 'highly automated recycling plant'? Not to mention maintain it IF the process ever gives a proper yield.
2) New coal power plants don't need to be built because plenty exist already. And you can forget alternative energy sources right on the bat, they exist only because they're heavily subsidized i.e. expensive as hell
3) Not where I live. Also it's a moot point when you have to drive through an isolate area which has neither.
4) Not due to lack of fuel. Unlike EV you can carry a 20 liter fuel canister in your trunk to have a rescue plan even if you're in the middle of wilderness.

 

[B00nie]

Perhaps it would mean 2.5 hr stops worst case,

I'd be royally pissed if I had to wait an extra 2,5 hours to recharge my car in the middle of the trip after driving for 6-7 hours that day and working a full 8 hour day.

 

[thejokker]

Ever heard of recycling? Thats what is being done even with current 10v lead acid car batteries and those are a hell of a lot less valuable to recycly than EV batteries.

And you have clearly never seen a modern battery factory - they are pretty clean.

We are not just talking about lead (which is highly toxic) but also lithium and cobalt which are "extremely" toxic. Mining of Lithium is "extremely" damaging to the environment. Do even a little bit of research and you will find that the word "extreme" is not an exaggeration when describing the mining of materials and manufacture and recycling of Telsa batteries. Gas powered cars are less of a threat to living creatures and the environment...

 

[Rebel44]

We are not just talking about lead (which is highly toxic) but also lithium and cobalt which are "extremely" toxic. Mining of Lithium is "extremely" damaging to the environment. Do even a little bit of research and you will find that the word "extreme" is not an exaggeration when describing the mining of materials and manufacture and recycling of Telsa batteries. Gas powered cars are less of a threat to living creatures and the environment...

Nonsense - lithium isnt very toxic (its actually used for some drugs)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_(medication)

Cobalt just like any other heavy metal is quite toxic, but that doesnt stop us from safely using those metals in many industries - as long as you process/use/recycle it properly, it doesnt pose danger to environment.

Lithium salts are extracted from water in mineral springs, brine pools, and brine deposits. The metal is produced through electrolysis from a mixture of fused 55% lithium chloride and 45% potassium chloride at about 450 °C - hardly what I would consider very destructive, especially when compared with effect of mining many other resources (and lithium mining is very small - producing only around 100K tons per year).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium#Production

 

[Wierdo]

I'd be royally pissed if I had to wait an extra 2,5 hours to recharge my car in the middle of the trip after driving for 6-7 hours that day and working a full 8 hour day.

That sounds awful, 6-7 hours every day commuting? What do you do? I wouldn't do that if they paid me double to be honest, no time left to enjoy life or spend with family.

But that's why they sell the higher range models, to partially tackle that 5 percent niche scenario. They currently are at 315 miles range, and the new batteries coming out this year have 30 percent more volume while cutting costs and vehicle weight, so who knows what ranges will be on offer next.

There's also plans to increase the charging rates from 120kw (~170 miles in half an hour) rapidly, latest bump was to 145kw this year. Their states goal is to eventually make charging times go as low as 5-10 minutes in a few years, so you may get your wishlist addressed sooner or later anyway.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...supercharger-ante-teases-350-kw-plus-charging

Myself I'll be fine with the 215 miles base range, I just need to go out of town like that a couple times a year, and it's not usually for business: A trip to a national park, museum, or family reunion etc, nothing to be in a rush for.

I'd rather pocket the savings or spend it on something more custom-fit to my own lifestyle, like a dual motor option for example.

 

[B00nie]

That sounds awful, 6-7 hours every day commuting? What do you do? I wouldn't do that if they paid me double to be honest, no time left to enjoy life or spend with family.

But that's why they sell the higher range models, to partially tackle that 5 percent niche scenario. They currently are at 315 miles range, and the new batteries coming out this year have 30 percent more volume while cutting costs and vehicle weight, so who knows what ranges will be on offer next.

There's also plans to increase the charging rates from 120kw (~170 miles in half an hour) rapidly, latest bump was to 145kw this year. Their states goal is to eventually make charging times go as low as 5-10 minutes in a few years, so you may get your wishlist addressed of sooner or later anyway.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...supercharger-ante-teases-350-kw-plus-charging

Myself I'll be fine with the 215 miles base range, I just need to go out of town like that a couple times a year, and it's not usually for business: A trip to a national park, museum, or family reunion etc, nothing to be in a rush for.

I'd rather pocket the savings or spend it on something more custom-fit to my own lifestyle, like a dual motor option for example.

Consulting/training trips to customers in other cities. Not every day commute