Tesla Faults Brakes, But Not Autopilot, In Fatal Crash

[Megalith]

Tesla has insisted to the Senate that its autopilot functions are innocent and that blame should be diverted to the car’s braking systems, but no one seems to be buying it because the latter is obviously controlled by the former.

“Those systems are supposed to work together to prevent an accident,” said Karl Brauer, a senior analyst at Kelley Blue Book, an auto research firm. “But either the car didn’t know it had to stop, or it did know and wasn’t able to stop. That involves Autopilot and the automatic braking.” The company told the committee staff that it considered the braking systems as “separate and distinct” from Autopilot, which manages the car’s steering, and can change lanes and adjust travel speed, the staff member said.

 

[mnewxcv]

so it was the obstacle avoidance system. Not really the brakes.

 

[azuza001]

Under those ideas it's also the engines fault and the gear selection system . . . .

 

[Twisted Kidney]

I blame the government, immigrants, the driver, and Hilary Clinton's email server.

 

[Jim Kim]

I blame the lack of a wall and russian haxors.

 

[Krixon]

Well, I'm not exactly sure what they did, but I'm inclined to blame Enron.

 

[Jim Kim]

Not to derail but If you have not seen "The Smartest Guys in the Room" it's pretty crazy. Also made me disgusted to live in TX.

 

[Raven88]

But what controls the brakes?

 

[Jim Kim]

But what controls the brakes?

The autopilot of course.

wait a minute

 

[JosiahBradley]

Maybe it was the drivers fault for fuck sake. Stop blaming technology on idiots. The car didn't intentionally kill the driver like everyone is blaming it merely didn't work magic.

 

[Synful Serenity]

They can say drivers were warned that they are still ultimately responsible for what they do with Autopilot, but as we saw with BuckyBalls and the Jeep Grand Cherokee shifter, that's not always accepted. I think of it as a glorified adaptive cruise control system, which is what it is, but being called Autopilot seems to change people's perceptions of it, both drivers and regulators. Although to me there is a difference between calling it Tesla's "Autopilot (tm)" vs. "This is Tesla's implementation of an autopilot for cars". One is just a name, the other is describing it (reminds me of Intel trying to register 80386 but being told it was a model number and not a name)....I wonder if this will become a point of contention in the future?

I agree that regardless of Autopilot's capabilities or whether it was on or off, the car's automatic braking should have kicked in anyway due to impending collision....that's a flaw, but a 5,000lb car stopping itself at 75mph when an obstacle suddenly crosses its path should not be a legally mandated expectation on an optional feature not intended to be a substitute for a driver's awareness. That shouldn't happen until the day comes where a maker can claim a car is able to drive itself 100% with nobody in the car. Things like air bags, seat belts, bumpers, and even the gear selector, are something that are found in all cars and clearly understood to protect or function in an expected way (the Grand Cherokee shifter excepted!). They're not faulted for causing accidents or fatalities, except if they malfunction. How can one company's interpretation of a limited driver-assistance automation tool be said to malfunction unless it suddenly turned into traffic for no reason, or disobeyed direct inputs? What if the accident was caused by a tire blowout from not detecting a pothole, or while going down a winding mountain dirt road in the snow at night? The driver is expected to remain alert and be ready to take over.

Also, these braking systems have already been equipped in some cars for years.....But they're not considered foolproof or a substitute for a driver's awareness either, more of an additional layer of safety as they can react faster than a driver can. I think Autopilot falls into the same category, it should not be held to an arbitrary standard of what it can and cannot do, that's like Italy pressing manslaughter charges against geologists for failing to predict a strong earthquake. The fact that some people will use it to watch Harry Potter and not pay attention at all shouldn't be a factor for the rest of us who have the sense not to do that. Someone can do pretty much the same in a Mercedes S550 with Distronic Plus and Lane Keeping Assist, but I don't think blame would go around to anyone but the driver in that case. We don't ban smartphones even though they can be used in cars because it's the driver's responsibility not to text and drive.

It's unfortunate, but the truck made a turn at an intersection on a sparse road without a light, probably expecting the driver would have to slow down and wait for him. Asshats cutting you off, darting out of parking lots onto main roads or running a stop sign could cause the same trouble even without Autopilot.

 

[wizzi01]

They can say drivers were warned that they are still ultimately responsible for what they do with Autopilot, but as we saw with BuckyBalls and the Jeep Grand Cherokee shifter, that's not always accepted. I think of it as a glorified adaptive cruise control system, which is what it is, but being called Autopilot seems to change people's perceptions of it, both drivers and regulators. Although to me there is a difference between calling it Tesla's "Autopilot (tm)" vs. "This is Tesla's implementation of an autopilot for cars". One is just a name, the other is describing it (reminds me of Intel trying to register 80386 but being told it was a model number and not a name)....I wonder if this will become a point of contention in the future?

I agree that regardless of Autopilot's capabilities or whether it was on or off, the car's automatic braking should have kicked in anyway due to impending collision....that's a flaw, but a 5,000lb car stopping itself at 75mph when an obstacle suddenly crosses its path should not be a legally mandated expectation on an optional feature not intended to be a substitute for a driver's awareness. That shouldn't happen until the day comes where a maker can claim a car is able to drive itself 100% with nobody in the car. Things like air bags, seat belts, bumpers, and even the gear selector, are something that are found in all cars and clearly understood to protect or function in an expected way (the Grand Cherokee shifter excepted!). They're not faulted for causing accidents or fatalities, except if they malfunction. How can one company's interpretation of a limited driver-assistance automation tool be said to malfunction unless it suddenly turned into traffic for no reason, or disobeyed direct inputs? What if the accident was caused by a tire blowout from not detecting a pothole, or while going down a winding mountain dirt road in the snow at night? The driver is expected to remain alert and be ready to take over.

Also, these braking systems have already been equipped in some cars for years.....But they're not considered foolproof or a substitute for a driver's awareness either, more of an additional layer of safety as they can react faster than a driver can. I think Autopilot falls into the same category, it should not be held to an arbitrary standard of what it can and cannot do, that's like Italy pressing manslaughter charges against geologists for failing to predict a strong earthquake. The fact that some people will use it to watch Harry Potter and not pay attention at all shouldn't be a factor for the rest of us who have the sense not to do that. Someone can do pretty much the same in a Mercedes S550 with Distronic Plus and Lane Keeping Assist, but I don't think blame would go around to anyone but the driver in that case. We don't ban smartphones even though they can be used in cars because it's the driver's responsibility not to text and drive.

It's unfortunate, but the truck made a turn at an intersection on a sparse road without a light, probably expecting the driver would have to slow down and wait for him. Asshats cutting you off, darting out of parking lots onto main roads or running a stop sign could cause the same trouble even without Autopilot.

Didn't the truck driver say the road was clear when he started making his turn then the tesla came out of no where? I am inclined to believe the truck driver than someone that was using a vehicle in a way it wasn't intended while watching a movie.

 

[Raven88]

The autopilot of course.

wait a minute

Nice little round robin they have going on there.

 

[SLee]

Didn't the truck driver say the road was clear when he started making his turn then the tesla came out of no where? I am inclined to believe the truck driver than someone that was using a vehicle in a way it wasn't intended while watching a movie.

Nobody's yet done an accident reconstruction (or at least publicize the results) but given how long it takes a semi-truck to make a left turn, especially one long as the one in the accident, the fact the crash occurred with 50+ feet of the truck off the road and the relatively short visibility from the trucker's POV because of the crest of a hill, all these support his claim of making the turn when the Tesla was not yet visible.

 

[MV75]

Nobody's yet done an accident reconstruction (or at least publicize the results) but given how long it takes a semi-truck to make a left turn, especially one long as the one in the accident, the fact the crash occurred with 50+ feet of the truck off the road and the relatively short visibility from the trucker's POV because of the crest of a hill, all these support his claim of making the turn when the Tesla was not yet visible.

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/HWY16FH018-preliminary.aspx

Yea.

 

[focbde]

It wasn't 'this' automated system, it was 'that' automated system!

Can we go now?

 

[focbde]

They can say drivers were warned that they are still ultimately responsible for what they do with Autopilot, but as we saw with BuckyBalls <SNIP>

Funny you should mention that, as soon as my son started to become mobile, I got rid of my BuckyBalls...

 

[knowom]

I blame the lack of a wall and russian haxors.

We need Russian haxors to get to space and purchase from Hillary Clinton's uranium foundation to set the bar lower for Iran and the rest of the middle east to purchase it from her.

 

[dangerouseddy]

well iran can mine and refine their own uranium.

more on topic, I would have thought that the autopilot feature would control the brakes.

 

[M76]

Oh because having faulty brakes on a brand new car is so much better. This is the stupidest excuse I ever heard. It is clear as sky that the "autopilot" system is not equipped to detect white objects hovering above ground level. I don't know why is this such a big deal. Guy wasn't paying any attention to the driving : he's at fault case closed. End of story.

 

[UnrealCpu]

dam what happen did the guy get his brakes serviced at Tesla? Must have been a Tesla made in China special

In this picture he explains how each brake pad and rotor is made in china

 

[Mut1ny]

I'd like to know why the hell there is such a pressure on Tesla for all this. Other vehicles and manufacturers have similar features and have issues all the fucking time yet I don't see them all over the Internet being blasted constantly. Teslas features are obviously working for other people (especially those that also pay attention while driving) so because of one incident the government is acting like Teslas need to be banned or something!

Not a conspiracy nut at all but this screams corruption and big government to me.

 

[UnrealCpu]

if you have money politicians will find ways to steal it by creating laws and lawsuits. They are all in bed with judges and lawyers. I wonder who elon musk will need to bribe to get out of this one

 

[krotch]

It's unfortunate, but the truck made a turn at an intersection on a sparse road without a light, probably expecting the driver would have to slow down and wait for him. Asshats cutting you off, darting out of parking lots onto main roads or running a stop sign could cause the same trouble even without Autopilot.

Considering the truck driver probably saw the car in the distance or the car wasn't in view yet and made the decision that he had ample room to make the turn. The Tesla was also speeding, but not a huge amount. Only 9 mph, but maybe that would have been enough to avoid the crash.

We really don't know, cause you know even if the Tesla driver was alive today, both the truck driver and the Tesla driver's statements would be them blaming each other.

 

[krotch]

I'd like to know why the hell there is such a pressure on Tesla for all this. Other vehicles and manufacturers have similar features and have issues all the fucking time yet I don't see them all over the Internet being blasted constantly. Teslas features are obviously working for other people (especially those that also pay attention while driving) so because of one incident the government is acting like Teslas need to be banned or something!

Not a conspiracy nut at all but this screams corruption and big government to me.

It's probably because no other manufacturer calls it an autopilot. Nor do they let you use it very long. Mercedes only allows 12 seconds of hands free when driving. BMW is 3 seconds. Infiniti doesn't have a limit, but is so broken, you'd be lucky to use it.

 

[JosiahBradley]

Also what is pissing me off is that people simply do not understand the word autopilot. Autopilots are navigational devices not fucking magic carpets. You will not find a single manned plane today military or otherwise that can be flown without a pilot. Autopilot is just a term used for enhanced navigation controls that keep the vehicle on course, it in no way shape or form imply's that it does all the work. Now if it was called an unmanned or drone vehicle then we'd have a problem but it is not. Let me quote the FAA here for a dose of common sense:

The convenience of flight director cues can invite fixation or
overreliance on the part of the pilot. As with all automated
systems, you must remain aware of the overall situation.
Never assume that flight director cues are following a route
or course that is free from error. Rather, be sure to include
navigation instruments and sources in your scan. Remember,
the equipment will usually perform exactly as programmed.
Always compare the displays to ensure that all indications
agree. If in doubt, fly the aircraft to remain on cleared track
and altitude, and reduce automation to as minimal as possible
during the problem processing period. The first priority for
a pilot always is to fly the aircraft.

 

[NickJames]

I'd like to know why the hell there is such a pressure on Tesla for all this. Other vehicles and manufacturers have similar features and have issues all the fucking time yet I don't see them all over the Internet being blasted constantly. Teslas features are obviously working for other people (especially those that also pay attention while driving) so because of one incident the government is acting like Teslas need to be banned or something!

Not a conspiracy nut at all but this screams corruption and big government to me.

Tesla or rather Elon Musk has pissed off the wrong people.

 

[Quix]

dam what happen did the guy get his brakes serviced at Tesla? Must have been a Tesla made in China special

Do you know where the brake pads and rotors on your car where made? It's a really good chance it was China and if not those other parts of your car, regardless of the brand. Unless you're driving a 40+ year old car that is.

 

[amddragonpc]

If these crashes happened in Chicago, he could have blamed the road. Oh well.

 

[krotch]

Do you know where the brake pads and rotors on your car where made? It's a really good chance it was China and if not those other parts of your car, regardless of the brand. Unless you're driving a 40+ year old car that is.

My brake pads and rotors are only made in Japan. The parts I stick onto my car are also made in Japan or US. Benefit of buying performance parts. The price is high enough for the parts that they can keep the manufacturing in house.

Although I do have some cheap built in Taiwan coilovers. They work fine on decent roads and suck on anything else. Nothing compared to my Japanese built Teins (old model). Today Teins are built in Japan or in China. Their lower end products in China and their higher end products in Japan. Japanese are very nationalistic, so if it's not built in Japan, they don't want it. Regardless if the quality is the same or not.

Why I like buying Japanese products. Course, it is going into my 19 year old Japanese car.

 

[thesmokingman]

My brake pads and rotors are only made in Japan. The parts I stick onto my car are also made in Japan or US. Benefit of buying performance parts. The price is high enough for the parts that they can keep the manufacturing in house.

Although I do have some cheap built in Taiwan coilovers. They work fine on decent roads and suck on anything else. Nothing compared to my Japanese built Teins (old model). Today Teins are built in Japan or in China. Their lower end products in China and their higher end products in Japan. Japanese are very nationalistic, so if it's not built in Japan, they don't want it. Regardless if the quality is the same or not.

Why I like buying Japanese products. Course, it is going into my 19 year old Japanese car.

The label might say Japan, but parts are still sourced and manufactured in China and it's been like that for a long ass time.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/833d93d0-2836-11e4-9ea9-00144feabdc0.html#axzz4G5ttHVrt

^^Irony at its best, China smacking down Japanese parts makers (in China) for price collusion, breaking Chinese monopoly laws.

 

[krotch]

The label might say Japan, but parts are still sourced and manufactured in China and it's been like that for a long ass time.

China fines 10 Japan car parts makers over price collusion - FT.com

^^Irony at its best, China smacking down Japanese parts makers (in China) for price collusion, breaking Chinese monopoly laws.

Except when they aren't. Project Mu and Endless make all their parts in house. There isn't much need to lower manufacturing costs cause they charge a high price to keep it all in house to maintain quality.

I'm not saying that Japanese companies don't have things manufactured in China, but I know what I'm getting isn't. Other things like the Cusco coilovers I'm looking at, I haven't a clue. I would not be surprised if portions of it are manufactured in China and assembly is in Japan. I can't imagine they'd have the whole thing done in China as there aren't an influx of cheap knockoffs out there of their parts.