Tesla disables feature after car is purchased, claims feature 'wasn't paid for'.

sfsuphysics

I don't get it
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This is how it goes when you buy a car

1. you go into dealership, pick car with options you want
2. after agreeing on price, you sign papers and car is yours.

what Tesla did was try to double dip and they got caught

3. this was a lemon law buy back
4. Tesla sold car at auction to a dealer with features intact.
5. Dealer takes possession of car with features intact.
6. Dealer sells car to buyer with features intact.
7. before car is delivered to buyer Tesla sneaks in and disables features.
About right, except between 5 & 6. Features were disabled a few days after dealer purchased car. Buyer bought the car about a month after features were disabled.
 

Mac2

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That's a fascinatingly horrifying theory. Just imagine doing that with features that are actually hardware, not software. "We're going to take the satellite radio out and replace it with a basic FM/AM radio so it sells faster." Or pick any other optional feature. "We're going to take the V8 out of this F150 and put in a V6."
Dont worry, down the road everything will be licensed on subscription based model. You forget to pay this month license fees bill for your car they will software disable 2 of the cylinders so you are down to V6 and as far as fm/am radios go the Xm/sirius has been doing it for years.
You no longer own the product, just rent it if the corporations can disable arbitrary features remotely.
 

tangoseal

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What happens if you just rip the 4g modem out of the Tesla. No more upgrades or downgrades


We at Tesla have detected your 4g is not working, please bring car to service center for repairs. Umm never take the car in. Problem solved.

I used to want a Tesla but after bullshit like this im gonna buy another car.
 

Darunion

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What happens if you just rip the 4g modem out of the Tesla. No more upgrades or downgrades


We at Tesla have detected your 4g is not working, please bring car to service center for repairs. Umm never take the car in. Problem solved.

I used to want a Tesla but after bullshit like this im gonna buy another car.
Car bootup: All packages disabled by default
{ping server to enable software packages}
if no connection { turn on check engine light and eject driver seat}
 

Mac2

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Car bootup: All packages disabled by default
{ping server to enable software packages}
if no connection { turn on check engine light and eject driver seat}
Tesla just released an update to their software for cool $4000. For that much hopefully it gives you massage and cooks dinner while self driving you to your destination.
 

RazorWind

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What happens if you just rip the 4g modem out of the Tesla. No more upgrades or downgrades


We at Tesla have detected your 4g is not working, please bring car to service center for repairs. Umm never take the car in. Problem solved.

I used to want a Tesla but after bullshit like this im gonna buy another car.
First, at least in the Model 3, the actual computer is one single board that's all super tightly integrated. I don't think you could de-integrate the cellular modem without hot-airing it off of the board. The folks who have disassembled one said that the PCBs in the car are more reminiscent of a fighter jet than car in the way they're integrated so tightly.

Second, even if you did that, the car relies pretty heavily on being connected to the internet to do all the things it does. The car wouldn't be the amazing futuristic space-car that it is if it wasn't constantly connected to the internet, and I say this as someone who both owns a Tesla and is endlessly suspicious about the sorts of things we're seeing in this thread.

Personally, though, I think in this case, the problem is ineptitude on Tesla's part, as opposed to malice. They have a procedure for resetting cars that come back to them that didn't get done, and then realized their mistake and tried to correct it retroactively. If they had reset the car prior to sending it to the auction, none of this would be an issue.
 

tangoseal

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First, at least in the Model 3, the actual computer is one single board that's all super tightly integrated. I don't think you could de-integrate the cellular modem without hot-airing it off of the board. The folks who have disassembled one said that the PCBs in the car are more reminiscent of a fighter jet than car in the way they're integrated so tightly.

Second, even if you did that, the car relies pretty heavily on being connected to the internet to do all the things it does. The car wouldn't be the amazing futuristic space-car that it is if it wasn't constantly connected to the internet, and I say this as someone who both owns a Tesla and is endlessly suspicious about the sorts of things we're seeing in this thread.

Personally, though, I think in this case, the problem is ineptitude on Tesla's part, as opposed to malice. They have a procedure for resetting cars that come back to them that didn't get done, and then realized their mistake and tried to correct it retroactively. If they had reset the car prior to sending it to the auction, none of this would be an issue.
Well the sold as is law protects the buyer in as much as the seller. Once the car sells "as is" that means the seller cant claim that you took something of theirs and they want it back. Once money exchanged hands and the car was paid for and the title of the car left Tesla and went to the owner of the car then Tesla has no right to change or modify anything in as far as physical features. Yes launch control, self driving, etc.. are physcial features even if controlled by a digital computer. I would grab the most insane blood thirsty corporate warranty attorney and I would go for blood if I owned that Tesla and they did that to me. Courts have blown gargantuan holes through "terms of service agreements" all over America. All it takes is one court ruling and Tesla will never be able to pull this shit off again without severe civil or criminal penalty.

Tesla is super valued now on the market. Surely they are not so bastard and stingy that theyre worried about a simple $3500 option? Seriously? Elon Musk is nearly worth 100 billion now.

But im not an attorney and this is my opinion. I am not saying I am right and anyone is wrong. Just adding my point of view. Not to create argument or divisiveness and hell maybe I am wrong in the end.
 
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tunatime

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First, at least in the Model 3, the actual computer is one single board that's all super tightly integrated. I don't think you could de-integrate the cellular modem without hot-airing it off of the board. The folks who have disassembled one said that the PCBs in the car are more reminiscent of a fighter jet than car in the way they're integrated so tightly.

Second, even if you did that, the car relies pretty heavily on being connected to the internet to do all the things it does. The car wouldn't be the amazing futuristic space-car that it is if it wasn't constantly connected to the internet, and I say this as someone who both owns a Tesla and is endlessly suspicious about the sorts of things we're seeing in this thread.

Personally, though, I think in this case, the problem is ineptitude on Tesla's part, as opposed to malice. They have a procedure for resetting cars that come back to them that didn't get done, and then realized their mistake and tried to correct it retroactively. If they had reset the car prior to sending it to the auction, none of this would be an issue.
Could you somehow route it though a VPN and then block all the talking to Tesla?
 

RazorWind

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Could you somehow route it though a VPN and then block all the talking to Tesla?
I doubt it. I don't know this for sure, but I strongly suspect that it's the car, and not the chargers, that talk to Tesla when you use a Supercharger station, meaning that if you blocked access to Tesla's web API, you'd probably lose the ability to use the Supercharger network, and that's a really critical feature of the car. Until a competitor appears, you're pretty much stuck within a 100 mile radius of your house, without it.

Some of the other features, like the maps API, may be driven directly from OSM or Google, but you'd still have to break into the onboard computer and force it to join a VPN. I've not attempted to do this, but I assume Tesla doesn't make it easy.
 

sfsuphysics

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So the software that you "pay extra" for isn't a part of the car, but it's for the individual who buys said car (and the extras they paid for)? Does that mean if that individual buys another Tesla they don't have to pay for auto-drive again because they still hold the license to it?
 

jiminator

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the story is not cut and dried as you make it out to be. auto-driver software can kill people. for that reason it probably updates fairly often to fix bugs in the code. It is not software running on the car but a subscription service. If you take the subscription part away and the car can't update or the owner does not maintain the software... what happens when someone dies? Whose responsibility will it be? The simple answer is just to turn it off. People purchasing the product probably have to sign a waiver against any potential damages including death that result from using the product. How will this apply to a new owner that never signed anything? and... people have died... because statistics are going to get somebody no matter how well designed a system is.
 

Tsumi

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Wouldn't causing an accident be your fault anyways???
Depends. A self driving level 5 system would be the one at fault if it caused the accident, in which case it will most likely be covered by "no fault" insurance unless it was determined that it was due to gross negligence by whomever designed the system. If the level 5 system was modified outside of what was acceptable by the manufacturer, the one that did the modification will be at fault.
 

thesmokingman

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Depends. A self driving level 5 system would be the one at fault if it caused the accident, in which case it will most likely be covered by "no fault" insurance unless it was determined that it was due to gross negligence by whomever designed the system. If the level 5 system was modified outside of what was acceptable by the manufacturer, the one that did the modification will be at fault.
Nah, yer still at fault. Self driving doesn't mean you the human is free from responsibility.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/s...-car-and-the-driver-blames-his-dog-2019-12-08
The unidentified driver was issued a misdemeanor summons for reckless driving and reckless endangerment, police said, explaining to ABC News that “regardless of your vehicles capabilities, when operating a vehicle your full attention is required at all times to ensure safe driving.”
 

EniGmA1987

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Depends. A self driving level 5 system would be the one at fault if it caused the accident, in which case it will most likely be covered by "no fault" insurance unless it was determined that it was due to gross negligence by whomever designed the system. If the level 5 system was modified outside of what was acceptable by the manufacturer, the one that did the modification will be at fault.
That could be a real problem in the future, as some car wrecks would damage circuit boards enough that there would be no way of knowing if someone "rooted" the car and made changes or not.
 

Derangel

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the story is not cut and dried as you make it out to be. auto-driver software can kill people. for that reason it probably updates fairly often to fix bugs in the code. It is not software running on the car but a subscription service. If you take the subscription part away and the car can't update or the owner does not maintain the software... what happens when someone dies? Whose responsibility will it be? The simple answer is just to turn it off. People purchasing the product probably have to sign a waiver against any potential damages including death that result from using the product. How will this apply to a new owner that never signed anything? and... people have died... because statistics are going to get somebody no matter how well designed a system is.
The fuck are you talking about? Autopilot is an UPGRADE OPTION not a subscription service. Also, obviously the answer is the driver that should be paying attention, like the car tells you to do. No, no one signs any waivers. You have no idea what you are talking about.
 

Tsumi

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That could be a real problem in the future, as some car wrecks would damage circuit boards enough that there would be no way of knowing if someone "rooted" the car and made changes or not.
A black box type device will survive most crashes. Get the sensor and control data, run it in a simulator with the software that was supposed to be installed at the time, and if it deviates, the software had been modified. If a car was doing something that caused the black box to be destroyed, it would almost definitely be outside of normal programming.
 

sfsuphysics

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Depends. A self driving level 5 system would be the one at fault if it caused the accident, in which case it will most likely be covered by "no fault" insurance unless it was determined that it was due to gross negligence by whomever designed the system. If the level 5 system was modified outside of what was acceptable by the manufacturer, the one that did the modification will be at fault.
Yeah, I can easily see insurance companies trying to weasel laws to get them out of this "What? There was an accident and we have to actually pay off the damages and can't sue someone else for damages nor raise the rate of our client!? How are we supposed to make a living!!!"
 

Tsumi

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Yeah, I can easily see insurance companies trying to weasel laws to get them out of this "What? There was an accident and we have to actually pay off the damages and can't sue someone else for damages nor raise the rate of our client!? How are we supposed to make a living!!!"
Obviously by setting rates that will enable them to earn money. When you have a large enough base, you can average the costs to a reasonable rate, that's how insurance works. Not to mention self driving cars should greatly reduce the number of expensive accidents (accidents with injuries), so it's not like rates are going to be significantly higher. When I had an accident, I guarantee you that they did not make back what they paid me out through suing the other driver and my rates.
 

EniGmA1987

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Yeah, I can easily see insurance companies trying to weasel laws to get them out of this "What? There was an accident and we have to actually pay off the damages and can't sue someone else for damages nor raise the rate of our client!? How are we supposed to make a living!!!"
Once the whole of the country is forced onto autonomous vehicles outside of tracks there theoretically wont be accidents anymore. Outside of system failures or extreme and sudden weather issues. The majority of payouts would be for issues relating to when the car was parked.
Make no mistake, once level 5 vehicles are tested and proven there will be legislation at one point or another forcing all new car sales to be those autonomous vehicles and all vehicles will need to be autonomous by a certain year. Anything can and will be forced in the name of safety.
 

Derangel

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I looked at a couple more of his vids. I was seriously considering a Tesla as my next car. Definitely will wait now.
As shitty as Tesla can be, they're really the same as every other auto maker out there. They're all shitty in their own way.
 

Tsumi

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As shitty as Tesla can be, they're really the same as every other auto maker out there. They're all shitty in their own way.
Amen to that... that's why I want to build my own electric car out of 2000 to early 2010 GM or Ford models. Advanced enough to have most safety features, basic enough to mod however you want, mod-friendly enough that their electrical systems are mostly understood.
 

legcramp

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I guess this is kinda like me selling my Android phone and logging out of my Google account so it removes all my stuff and apps so the new owner would have to login and purchase the apps again. Lol 😂
 

sfsuphysics

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I looked at a couple more of his vids. I was seriously considering a Tesla as my next car. Definitely will wait now.
For me it's about all theses "extras", being so damn much "extra". Like seriously $7000 for self driving? Yikes. I mean I look at the "base model" and think to myself, ok that's kind of pricey for a car but not outrageous it must be all the extra battery which makes the other models cost more" but I'm guessing at that mid 30s price range you're not getting anything fancy. It's kind of like when other auto mfgs have GPS integrated into the car and that's like a $2000 upcharge, like excuse me? $2k for GPS? Dafuq do you think this is the 80s?
 

MMitch

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The fuck are you talking about? Autopilot is an UPGRADE OPTION not a subscription service. Also, obviously the answer is the driver that should be paying attention, like the car tells you to do. No, no one signs any waivers. You have no idea what you are talking about.
I had to sign one for Adaptive cruise control Stop & Go on my Ford. They state that you have to be aware of your surroundings and that this is NOT an autopilot.
I would think that Tesla does the same which is fine by me.

Now I doubt the used market does the same.
 

YeuEmMaiMai

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If Tesla want to sell this as a owner specific option, they are screwed as the owner will be like why cannot I use it on this new Tesla I just got...after all it is tied to me
If they want to sell it as a sub, better be a per month fee people are willing to live with...

and they have to remove it from the Maroni sticker on said car
 

Tsumi

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If they want to sell it as a sub, better be a per month fee people are willing to live with...
That's what the whole industry seems to be pushing for. No one owns cars, they just lease it when they need one.
 

odditory

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But basically, all of this, is about Salvage Title cars. If you buy a non-Salvage cars, not really an issue.
Yep. Rich Rebuilds has become just another FUD peddler. Smart guy, but fuck off with frankensteining salvage/wreck Tesla's with mix and match parts to flip for profit, and then trying to create perception like Tesla is trying to disadvantage all owners somehow.

No kidding a Tesla isn't going to be MoD FrIeNdlY, when a mistake or oversight can kill you and other people. And then the headline will not be "Tesla hacked by hobbyist in his garage blows up supercharging station", instead it'll be the predictable "Another Tesla Explodes!?" with flaming pictures, and the TSLA shorts masturbating violently.
 
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1_rick

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His model X video shows mice eating his air filter and setting up a colony in there behind it.
That's not a Tesla-specific thing. I used to own a Kia Sedona and started it up one day only to hear a nasty whir/thumping noise coming from the dash. Worked my way back behind there and found a dead mouse inside the fan.
 

Fremunaln

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According to the original article, the said buyer picked a used vehicle, that had been bought back by Tesla. Whether the title was branded as a lemon law vehicle (very rarely do they ever) or bought back before that point is anyones guess.

Happy to hear that they resolved the issue. While logic dictates that a vehicle such as Tesla with its potential to cause injury should be audited if said vehicle does not pass safety checks that are required, in a court of law Tesla would have a hard time arguing whether they are allowed to retroactively remove sold features if their sales contracts and TOS stated otherwise. As usual with said public gaffes, I assume a introduction of a new section on their TOS to reflect the lessons learned.
 
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