Telecom Lobbyists Successfully Remove Canada from Wireless Pricing Report

[THRESHIN]

Yeah I'm in Canada and our wireless prices are a joke. I'm paying $40/month for 5gb, unlimited calling in the country, texts, etc. This doesn't sound horrible (and it's not) BUT my speed is throttled to that of 3G, it's prepaid and there is virtually no support at all. What little support there is is through their forums. You also have to bring your own phone.

Thankfully I don't need any more speed than 3G and 5gb is overkill for me. I don't care to have the latest and greatest phone, so I'm happy to buy my own. Not everyone is ok with these things.

By the way, this is pretty much rock bottom price unless you want a carrier like freedom that is very limited in their coverage

 

[MMitch]

https://business.financialpost.com/telecom/telus-reports-q3-profit-and-revenue-up-from-year-ago-raises-dividend#targetText=Operating revenue totalled $3.77 billion,of 72 cents per share.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/rogers-profit-rises-by-more-than-a-third-to-425m-1.4627514#targetText=Rogers profit rises by more than a third to $425,the comparable period last year.
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/bce-reports-first-quarter-2019-results-854013662.html

I have to say all our carriers are pure fucking evil. Years back I worked for Telus as they pushed outside of Alberta... and they are pure scum all the way up. Before that I sold contracts for Rogers and they where perhaps a fraction better. All our majors are making over a billion in profit a year and that has been going on for a very long time now. In the last number of years every one of them is reporting 40-150k NEW cellular subs a quarter. At this point big land service companies like Telus are reporting 50% of their revenue is from mobile.

They like to scare us with the.... Land mass !!! Customers per Kilometer !!! Its a great narrative to spin... there are two few of you and the geography means very high cost infrastructure. Trust me its 100% bullshit. (sure in a small Euro or Asian country perhaps they have 10x the population density and half the land mass to service... but they don't have 3 players either your talking about markets with 10+ carriers) They can afford to blanket the country in towers which cost a lot less today then they did 30 years ago. The profit margins they are seeing on mobile are monopoly healthy. I am not saying they shouldn't be able to make money.... however name ONE other industry where you can gross multiple billions in revenue at 50% margin and retain strong government protections from competition. The big 3 use every dirty trick in the book to make people believe Canada is an expensive place to do business, and outside competition would threaten our Canadianess and must be blocked at all costs. Hell they have even started multiple little no name carriers to sell low cost no contract services in an attempt to convince Canadians that there isn't really only 3 companies (who collude all the time) selling service.

Well pretty much any industry is aiming for such GM and tbh, I saw higher % in tech industries, although not aimed at consumer level. This number is to be taken with a grain of salt I think, disclosed numbers are always public numbers.
So far from the comparison people listed they either have crappy coverage, only data, brought their phone, can't convert CAD to US$, forget to include taxes in their price or phone value.

I agree that lobbying should be criminal. I'm all for better prices but I would like to see people come up with solutions instead of empty sentences.
Here Videotron established as another carrier, why can't other do it ? There's more than 3 main carriers here... yeah there's low level carriers but they're also forced to rent their lines to new players which pisses them off.

 

[ChadD]

Well pretty much any industry is aiming for such GM and tbh, I saw higher % in tech industries, although not aimed at consumer level. This number is to be taken with a grain of salt I think, disclosed numbers are always public numbers.
So far from the comparison people listed they either have crappy coverage, only data, brought their phone, can't convert CAD to US$, forget to include taxes in their price or phone value.

I agree that lobbying should be criminal. I'm all for better prices but I would like to see people come up with solutions instead of empty sentences.
Here Videotron established as another carrier, why can't other do it ? There's more than 3 main carriers here... yeah there's low level carriers but they're also forced to rent their lines to new players which pisses them off.

I could be wrong but hasn't Videotron been around since the 1960s... hardly a new player, unless I'm mistaken. I'm in Manitoba. I know they have been forced to rent things like service lines ect. Still no actual startup (with 75% Canadian funding min) is really going to come and turn an industry on its ear when the big 3 are all pulling in 3-5 Billion in revenue at 50% margin every single quarter. Not to mention all the times they have had their fingers slapped for colluding on pricing... and working together to squeeze the handful of smaller players. The last real outsider was microcell (fido) which had backing in part (as much as legally allowed) from T-Mobile Rogers bought them for I think it was 1.4 billion 15 years back now... after they did manage to shake things up for a few years. Its sad really that some of the cheapest rates Canadians have seen where around 15+ years back.

Of course 50% margin is what company shoot for. However as volume goes up margins in general go down, and margins in Consumer industries are in general a lot lower. I believe in 2018 Apples margin was something like 35%... Ford was under 10%. Of course those are not apples to apples comparisons.

I mostly bring margin into the discussion... as whenever anyone critiques the big Canadian carriers and their monopoly behaviors. Someone always has to trot out the same old Lines... I myself 15 years ago remember telling service reps working under me to use those BS lines about population density, and lower subscriber bases. For a long time the big national 3 at least as I worked for or with all of them. Would sing them on command (I'm talking pretty much top down) when defending poor implementation or slow upgrade rollouts ect. Even when the Gov forced them to migrate numbers, unlock phones for free, cap contract buyouts and all but banned 3 year contracts (the previous Telus go to)... Telus dropped a few % points in margin for a year (2014), and then up it went again. Their margin in 2012 was around 40% they dropped as low as 35% or so in 2014 the first full year of all the new rules. Since then they have been steadily gaining every single year.

My only point is they can more then afford to offer reasonable rates, coverage, and service. Canadians are far to willing to give them a pass cause we are willing to believe silly lies like they have a low market cap, and territory and terrain make Canada hard to service. Truth is there is only in general 2-4 carriers depending on the markets (and the only Canadian cities with 4 REAL carriers have 1+ million populations) meaning market cap is fantastic compared to Asian and Euro markets where a city of 1 million people can easily have 20 distinct carriers. The other widely held fallacy that Canadian terrain makes cell service hard is actually very untrue. Yes getting cell service in the north outside major areas and highways is a pain... but our cities and surrounding areas are in most of the country very flat open and very easy to blanket with tower coverage.

As for solutions its very simple....
https://business.financialpost.com/...r-open-to-criticism-but-sadly-not-competition
competition. This idea that Canadian telecom companies must remain 100% Canadian is stupid and not that old the telecommunciations act was passed in 1993. Prior to that what kept US companies out of our country was mostly not wanting to compete with State run telecom companies. Which Canada still mostly had at that point. In order to protect our culture our politicians somehow managed to twist Carrier and Content together. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the sheer number of politicians that retired to nice Board seats on telecom companies. One of my favorites (Cause I'm in Manitoba) Manitobas former Premier Gary Filmon who sat on the board of MTS for12 years after he privatized the public utility... he retired from politics and was on the board a few months later. He left MTS months before it was sold to Bell. lol We need new legislation that doesn't conflate content with delivery. Protecting Canadian content doesn't have anything to do with the companies providing the lines/waves they are being broadcast on. The recent Netflix Canada deal goes to show... you can have Foreign providers enter the market and still follow content rules.

PS Sorry for the book of a post. I haven't worked in the sector in years now but it still gets me worked up.

 

[Arcygenical]

Then you're a sucker.

Have you ever tried negotiating with Rogers? During my last renewal they just hung up on me when I pressed it hard. Mind you I was negotiating down from $120 for a single line with unlimited data, and a basic 3 slot voicemail. I eventually did negotiate the plan down to under $100 but it took me over 5 hours with three different CS monkeys. Going in store with hands down the best experience, I negotiated down to where I wanted to be at in under 20 minutes


Im lucky enough to have amazing 500/500 unlimited fiber internet for 50$ a month though.

 

[MMitch]

Removed for space

Videotron has been in the area for TV & Internet but only recently was able to buy a spectrum to provide their own cellular network. They were associated with Rogers I believe when they first started to offer cellphones. I do think that it's ok to close the market to Canadian only companies to protect revenue and jobs but yeah there's a need for more players and stickier rules about lobbying and corruption for sure.

I think it's possible to negotiate good deals depending on your market, here we have Bell, Rogers, Telus, Videotron, Virgin, Fido and some more... I think paying 66CAD$ each lines (Plus taxes) for basically unlimited Canada and US (If I'm in Canada) along with 24GB shared per line and 1200CAD$ worth of phones for 2 years is decent. When you remove the phone cost it's basically 30US$+tx per line. Now I know some won't negotiate nor will they accept anything but iPhones and subsidize its price on the monthly installments, now that's crazy (150$+/m).

Now is you want only data plan and bring your device that's where you need lube lol.

 

[ChadD]

Videotron has been in the area for TV & Internet but only recently was able to buy a spectrum to provide their own cellular network. They were associated with Rogers I believe when they first started to offer cellphones. I do think that it's ok to close the market to Canadian only companies to protect revenue and jobs but yeah there's a need for more players and stickier rules about lobbying and corruption for sure.

I think it's possible to negotiate good deals depending on your market, here we have Bell, Rogers, Telus, Videotron, Virgin, Fido and some more... I think paying 66CAD$ each lines (Plus taxes) for basically unlimited Canada and US (If I'm in Canada) along with 24GB shared per line and 1200CAD$ worth of phones for 2 years is decent. When you remove the phone cost it's basically 30US$+tx per line. Now I know some won't negotiate nor will they accept anything but iPhones and subsidize its price on the monthly installments, now that's crazy (150$+/m).

Now is you want only data plan and bring your device that's where you need lube lol.

I wasn't to sure about videotron, glad they got some spectrum. They had lots of money to play though considering. As for your choices... your post proves my point a little. You assume there is lots of competition cause you see Virgin Fido and others. Fido is owned by Rogers, Virgin is owned by Bell. Over the years they have bought out smaller carriers and kept them operating to keep the calls of monopoly down. They have also spun off multiple low cost pay as you go carriers. Koodo and Public mobile for instance are Telus divisions. Chatr is Rogers.

Freedom mobile is Shaw... the closest thing Canada has to a real forth carrier, they are in fact #4. They operate in 3 of 10 provinces and account for a whooping 5% of the market. I would imagine videotron has a 1-2% at most the rest is all Bell/Telus/Rogers. Its deceptive as hell... and I'm not picking on you or anything they do their best to hide ownership of the stupid brands they start up. Its not hidden but no one that works at a little Cell hut selling any of the low cost brands is ever going to mention their parent companies. At one point I heard a hut mall shop manager of a low cost pre paid brand tell a customer "we rent towers from Telus." which was of course complete BS, they where/are Telus. lol

You aren't paying a crazy amount no... but really negotiation ? Its not a solution. We aren't trading horses... no one should have to negotiate deals. I can tell you if you negotate a good deal.. it means some other Canadian is stuck in a contract with a very messed up pricing scheme. I know what you mean on the bring your device though... after I left the industry I refuse to sign contracts, the plans on offer when you don't want to lock in are in general pretty horrible. The contract offers are much more reasonable today vs 10 years back though. The CRTC did get them a bit more in line... at least they got them to drop 3 year contracts which where pretty evil. Although I hear they have found a loop hole and have been doing 3 years again... CRTC is doing their consulting thing again right now. Hopefully they get them back to 2 years in all cases again.