TechGuide: Hisense launches Dual Cell TV with the black levels of an OLED and the brightness of LED

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Snowdog

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This really seems like one to keep an eye on for reviews. A potential game changer for LCD TV/Monitors. It was at CES but now it has a price and is supposedly shipping next month.

It's the layering of a 1080p monocrhome LCD to modulate the backlight and a color 4K LCD for the final picture. Pricing is not too bad either as I assume those are Australian dollars.

https://www.techguide.com.au/news/t...ual-cell-tv-black-levels-oled-brightness-led/
Hisense has announced the pricing and availability of its revolutionary Dual Cell TV which offer the black levels of an OLED and the brightness of an LED TV in one television.

The new Hisense 65SX Dual Cell TV precisely bonds two LCD layers together to control colour and luminance with one panel while leveraging two million dimming zones to generate deeper blacks and impressive contrast with the other.

The new Hisense 65-inch Dual Cell TV will be available from mid-September and will be priced at $3,499.
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mashie said:
It's still LCD though, it will be interesting to see how much light two vs one layer of LCD crystals can block.
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Absolutely. It will never be as good as OLED.

It will just be interesting to get some decent reviews to see how it works out better in practice than current local dimming setups.

I have a much more negative view of current local dimming on LCD than most. IMO it's just about universally a pointless gimmick. It creates all kinds of artifacts that point out the weaknesses in LCD, more than it really helps.
 
Snowdog said:
I have a much more negative view of current local dimming on LCD than most. IMO it's just about universally a pointless gimmick. It creates all kinds of artifacts that point out the weaknesses in LCD, more than it really helps.
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Yep. Local Dimming is too late to the party as far as I'm concerned. They should have gotten that to market 10 years ago, imo. It serves more of a distraction with the obvious halo'ing, etc. By the time they get enough dimming zones to make it viable, it will be too late. And no one's going to pay a premium for such a thing when they have the option for a, by then, cheaper OLED and be done with it.

Dual cell will have to prove itself. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to note that having two layers makes blocking light more effective. It's the passing of light through both layers effectively that will be its proving ground. While I can appreciate deeper blacks, I don't think I'd sacrifice that for worsened pixel response, poor contrast ratio, poor color accuracy, bad viewing angles, etc. In other words, if there are tradeoffs, it better be minor.
 
It has the potential to be brighter than OLED simply due to being a backlit option, and while uniformity will be important to control for, the lack of having to have a a local dimming matrix of separate light sources will probably simplify production.

But really, brighter with significantly less potential for temporary or permanent burn in are the upsides here, and power draw is likely to be a significant downside.

I can see this one being useful for signage, but I doubt that the technology gets developed enough before it simply has no advantage over upcoming OLED panels, including production cost.
 
Absalom said:
While I can appreciate deeper blacks, I don't think I'd sacrifice that for worsened pixel response, poor contrast ratio, poor color accuracy, bad viewing angles, etc. In other words, if there are tradeoffs, it better be minor.
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This is the part that I'm waiting to see more about. This thing needs to be the best parts of VA with great local dimming, while also being the best parts of IPS color and viewing angles.
 
They use the same tech in the newest master series monitors, but they have bad viewing angles and huge power draw.
Then you have all the other LCD drawbacks as well.

I could see this being pretty good if they can work through the problems, but I doubt it will be worth getting over OLED, and by the time dual LCD is competitive with OLED (if ever) there will probably be micro LED or something else that's much better.
 
Snowdog said:
Absolutely. It will never be as good as OLED.

It will just be interesting to get some decent reviews to see how it works out better in practice than current local dimming setups.

I have a much more negative view of current local dimming on LCD than most. IMO it's just about universally a pointless gimmick. It creates all kinds of artifacts that point out the weaknesses in LCD, more than it really helps.
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Apparently side by side its very impressive, but you can see some bloom from local dimming

https://eftm.com/2020/08/hisense-dual-cell-tv-review-the-closest-thing-to-oled-yet-81579

For me, I don't think the difference is nearly as pronounced in phones, because they are all glass. For TVs, a glass OLED will always look gorgeous next to a matte TV of any kind IMO. I use a glass Apple monitor that makes every other IPS monitor I have seen look like a joke when it comes to black.

Doesn't specify if the dual cell is glass panel, but if it looks as close as they say, I'm betting it is or it has a very glossy coating.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
It has the potential to be brighter than OLED simply due to being a backlit option, and while uniformity will be important to control for, the lack of having to have a a local dimming matrix of separate light sources will probably simplify production.

But really, brighter with significantly less potential for temporary or permanent burn in are the upsides here, and power draw is likely to be a significant downside.

I can see this one being useful for signage, but I doubt that the technology gets developed enough before it simply has no advantage over upcoming OLED panels, including production cost.
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Agreed that higher brightness _potential_ with good enough ACR vs OLED at a lower price point is the primary value prop here. The China-only release that i viewed a couple years back was sorely lacking in several areas. I'm interested in how the latest release will score at rtings.com once its available in the US (assuming it ever is). I am guessing (and would love to hear confirmation or info otherwise) that BOE only has VA fabs. Otherwise, why wasn't dual cell developed using IPS for better off angle performance? The x-polarized LC panels should give excellent contrast (even though sub-OLED levels), canceling out the IPS contrast issue. Two VA panels stacked likely exasperates the viewing angle issue of VA (again I'd like to hear confirmation or info otherwise). If future brightness can top 1000 nits in 10-20% window with 100% in the mid hundreds, coupled with 100K:1 contrast at a good price point, they'd be able to battle with any QLED, including miniLED BLU. Lack of IPS potentially hurts - did this contribute to the off axis halo shown in the review URL above?? Given LGD's recent issues with their G8.5 OLED fab and future G10.5 OLED fab now on hold plus 5 (or more?) quarters losing money, I don't see their prices coming down significantly anytime soon. Improved brightness future for OLED looks 'dim' (ha!) too IMO. Technically feasible though difficult, but P&L situation at LGD needs to improve first. ACR (ambient contrast ratio) is where it's at long term. Just IMO of course. OLED wins hands down in a dark room and today is just acceptable in daylight living room ACR conditions. All this being said, Hisense has to show that they've come a long way since the China-only release or they will not be pushing dual cell for very long....
I had to smile when i just saw this DD article from Ray S. https://displaydaily.com/article/di...splay-performance-in-real-world-ambient-light Apples and oranges technology-wise, but the ACR argument struck home and scratched my 'confirmation bias' itch!
 
Bytor2112 said:
Agreed that higher brightness _potential_ with good enough ACR vs OLED at a lower price point is the primary value prop here. The China-only release that i viewed a couple years back was sorely lacking in several areas. I'm interested in how the latest release will score at rtings.com once its available in the US (assuming it ever is). I am guessing (and would love to hear confirmation or info otherwise) that BOE only has VA fabs. Otherwise, why wasn't dual cell developed using IPS for better off angle performance? The x-polarized LC panels should give excellent contrast (even though sub-OLED levels), canceling out the IPS contrast issue. Two VA panels stacked likely exasperates the viewing angle issue of VA (again I'd like to hear confirmation or info otherwise). If future brightness can top 1000 nits in 10-20% window with 100% in the mid hundreds, coupled with 100K:1 contrast at a good price point, they'd be able to battle with any QLED, including miniLED BLU. Lack of IPS potentially hurts - did this contribute to the off axis halo shown in the review URL above?? Given LGD's recent issues with their G8.5 OLED fab and future G10.5 OLED fab now on hold plus 5 (or more?) quarters losing money, I don't see their prices coming down significantly anytime soon. Improved brightness future for OLED looks 'dim' (ha!) too IMO. Technically feasible though difficult, but P&L situation at LGD needs to improve first. ACR (ambient contrast ratio) is where it's at long term. Just IMO of course. OLED wins hands down in a dark room and today is just acceptable in daylight living room ACR conditions. All this being said, Hisense has to show that they've come a long way since the China-only release or they will not be pushing dual cell for very long....
I had to smile when i just saw this DD article from Ray S. https://displaydaily.com/article/di...splay-performance-in-real-world-ambient-light Apples and oranges technology-wise, but the ACR argument struck home and scratched my 'confirmation bias' itch!
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While this has potential to improve black levels of LCD, that is about all has. Still has the potential for viewing angle anomalies, and response time issues (likely exacerbated by having dual panels).

For me the technology has more potential for computer monitors, because that is were OLED doesn't really exist, and burn in resistance is most important. But there you want IPS to cut down on viewing angle issues. Maybe VA in the monochrome panel, and IPS in the color panel would work well for monitors.

For TV, OLED remains king IMO. I don't watch daytime TV, so dark/dim room performance in Movies and TV shows ( more like movies these days) is what matters. Burn in is almost irrelevant in this use case.

As far as pricing. This first effort cost as much as OLED. It is mainly interesting to get beyond the hype with some good third party reviews.

ByTor and the SnowDog Square for battle, let the fray begin... :D
 
Snowdog said:
Absolutely. It will never be as good as OLED.
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More like OLED will never be as good as LCD panels.

If you take proper care of an LCD panel, it will basically last forever. Sure the backlight will need to be replaced eventually, but I've seen 20-30 year old LCD screens that still look as good as the day they were manufactured. Not to say LCD panels can't fail, but they're way more reliable than any LED screen.

The same can't be said for OLED screens:
Oled_display_alterung.jpg

The LEDs degrade over time, requiring complex software in the screen controller to do adaptive color degradation. Blue LEDs have by far the shortest lifespan, followed by green and then red. This is why "pixels" on OLED screens have disproportionately huge blue areas, to allow more time for adaptive degradation to work.
Pixel_OLED.jpg

Color degradation and screen burn is horrible on OLED phone screens, I've seen it happen in just a few months of normal wear and tear.
 
GiGaBiTe said:
More like OLED will never be as good as LCD panels.

If you take proper care of an LCD panel, it will basically last forever. Sure the backlight will need to be replaced eventually, but I've seen 20-30 year old LCD screens that still look as good as the day they were manufactured. Not to say LCD panels can't fail, but they're way more reliable than any LED screen.

The same can't be said for OLED screens:
View attachment 273287

The LEDs degrade over time, requiring complex software in the screen controller to do adaptive color degradation. Blue LEDs have by far the shortest lifespan, followed by green and then red. This is why "pixels" on OLED screens have disproportionately huge blue areas, to allow more time for adaptive degradation to work.
View attachment 273288

Color degradation and screen burn is horrible on OLED phone screens, I've seen it happen in just a few months of normal wear and tear.
Click to expand...

Sure, for harsh use cases where burn in is the main concern. As I already stated, that's what makes dual LCD interesting for computer monitors.

But for TV/Movies/Console gaming, Burn-In isn't a serious issue, and then you get a vastly superior display.
 
Snowdog said:
While this has potential to improve black levels of LCD, that is about all has. Still has the potential for viewing angle anomalies, and response time issues (likely exacerbated by having dual panels).

For me the technology has more potential for computer monitors, because that is were OLED doesn't really exist, and burn in resistance is most important. But there you want IPS to cut down on viewing angle issues. Maybe VA in the monochrome panel, and IPS in the color panel would work well for monitors.

For TV, OLED remains king IMO. I don't watch daytime TV, so dark/dim room performance in Movies and TV shows ( more like movies these days) is what matters. Burn in is almost irrelevant in this use case.

As far as pricing. This first effort cost as much as OLED. It is mainly interesting to get beyond the hype with some good third party reviews.

ByTor and the SnowDog Square for battle, let the fray begin... :D
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I thought you might appreciate my username...! Alex's birthday tomorrow....
Yes, use case trumps all of course for the buyer. Most people don't only watch in a darkened room. From a marketing point of view, anything that improves ACR will catch the eye of the masses. Coupled with lower price point than WOLED will get some attention. None of that matters if Hisense can't provide a product that can compare to QLED (with or without miniLED BLU) for performance and price. A current sweet-spot example seems to be the new TCL 8 series based on reviews (I haven't seen one). Great performance for a QLED at a really good price. If the 65SX doesn't obviously have better ACR (while still meeting the other table stakes) in the showroom then they have a loong road ahead of them to try and compete. Providing higher (peak) brightness in the future would help ACR tremendously too (even against WOLED at that time). For better or worse, power consumption (related to higher brightness) is not important to most 1st-worlders. Various national energy stds may force their hand. It may not be clear where I stand, but I'm not optimistic. But I'm hopeful! Off topic, I'll drop a grenade (or a wicked bass line) and leave the stage: micro LED will _never_ be successful in the consumer TV arena (<=75" & <$3000). Would I love to be proven wrong? You betcha.
 
Unless you are in a darkened room, dual layer LCD really isn't going to matter either.
 
Snowdog said:
Unless you are in a darkened room, dual layer LCD really isn't going to matter either.
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Not so, at least according to the UCF display lab research. Native CR rules in a dark room, but ambient CR rules in any room with normal lighting, say 100 lux or more. ACR is improved when strong blacks are combined with higher brightness, no surprise. So, the brightness value prop for dual cell must become reality for it to 'look great' in a normal living room or on the showroom floor and have a chance vs the competition. Last I saw nit values, they weren't there yet. More than one issue to tackle getting there too (cost effective heat management being #1).
 

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Bytor2112 said:
Not so, at least according to the UCF display lab research. Native CR rules in a dark room, but ambient CR rules in any room with normal lighting, say 100 lux or more. ACR is improved when strong blacks are combined with higher brightness, no surprise. So, the brightness value prop for dual cell must become reality for it to 'look great' in a normal living room or on the showroom floor and have a chance vs the competition. Last I saw nit values, they weren't there yet. More than one issue to tackle getting there too (cost effective heat management being #1).
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That supports what I said. Maybe you are misunderstood my point. I will rephrase:

In a well lit room, normal LCD == Dual Layer LCD.

Dual layer LCD improves black levels. If you aren't in a darkened room, then then the improved black level is irrelevant, and dual layer benefit doesn't matter (so would be a waste of money).
 
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Snowdog said:
That supports what I said. Maybe you are misunderstood my point. I will rephrase:

In a well lit room, normal LCD == Dual Layer LCD.

Dual layer LCD improves black levels. If you aren't in a darkened room, then then the improved black level is irrelevant, and dual layer benefit doesn't matter (so would be a waste of money).
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I gotcha. I'd amend my thinking as a consumer and say then that I should be able to have (most) of the best of both worlds in that case with one TV - very good dark room perf (living room at night) as well as high ambient perf (living room in the afternoon). It remains to be seen. Cheers
 
It remains to be seen how it works out in practice. Poor black levels aren't the only LCD problem, and it's the only one that Dual Layer purports to fix.

Just like FALD backlights sound good in hype, and are disappointing in practice. I wouldn't count dual LCD being all that great.

Not being obsessed by screen brightness, OLED already looks like the best of all worlds to me for TV.

We have this wonderful technology innovation at my house, called curtains, that makes my current LCD TV usable in daytime on the those rare occasions and it's not even as bright as an OLED TV. An OLED would just be better in every way.
 
Snowdog said:
We have this wonderful technology innovation at my house, called curtains, that makes my current LCD TV usable in daytime on the those rare occasions and it's not even as bright as an OLED TV. An OLED would just be better in every way.
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Even better, I made my curtains out of old LCD panel layers so the glory of OLED can reign supreme over the corpses of it's predecessors.
 
GiGaBiTe said:
More like OLED will never be as good as LCD panels.

If you take proper care of an LCD panel, it will basically last forever. Sure the backlight will need to be replaced eventually, but I've seen 20-30 year old LCD screens that still look as good as the day they were manufactured. Not to say LCD panels can't fail, but they're way more reliable than any LED screen.

The same can't be said for OLED screens:
View attachment 273287

The LEDs degrade over time, requiring complex software in the screen controller to do adaptive color degradation. Blue LEDs have by far the shortest lifespan, followed by green and then red. This is why "pixels" on OLED screens have disproportionately huge blue areas, to allow more time for adaptive degradation to work.
View attachment 273288

Color degradation and screen burn is horrible on OLED phone screens, I've seen it happen in just a few months of normal wear and tear.
Click to expand...

I have to add, do not mix the oldschool Amoled into LG's WRGB OLED technology, which does not even have blue oled pixels. They are functionally very different and LG's take on the OLED does not suffer even nearly as bad from the problems that AMOLED on a phone screen does. Burn in is still there but pretty much on par with later Plasma tech (so not very bad in real life use) and pixels do age, but all have the same lifespan because they are all white and colors are made with filters. Degradation depends fully on the content that is being watched.
 
MaZa said:
I have to add, do not mix the oldschool Amoled into LG's WRGB OLED technology, which does not even have blue oled pixels. They are functionally very different and LG's take on the OLED does not suffer even nearly as bad from the problems that AMOLED on a phone screen does. Burn in is still there but pretty much on par with later Plasma tech (so not very bad in real life use) and pixels do age, but all have the same lifespan because they are all white and colors are made with filters. Degradation depends fully on the content that is being watched.
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Exactly, and Samsung is reportedly working on QD-OLED, which will have a similar principle, but use all blue pixels and QD filters. Though it does seem problematic to use blue as the base color since it tends to be the least durable.

QD-OLED TV was supposed to come out in 2021, but rumors are pushing that to 2022 now, though they are apparently showing the panels to big TV OEMs now.
https://www.oled-info.com/samsung-s...prototypes-potential-customers-may-produce-qd
 
Snowdog said:
Exactly, and Samsung is reportedly working on QD-OLED, which will have a similar principle, but use all blue pixels and QD filters. Though it does seem problematic to use blue as the base color since it tends to be the least durable.

QD-OLED TV was supposed to come out in 2021, but rumors are pushing that to 2022 now, though they are apparently showing the panels to big TV OEMs now.
https://www.oled-info.com/samsung-s...prototypes-potential-customers-may-produce-qd
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Yeah the blue oled pixel is a red flag but maybe Samsung has figured something out. 🤔 It will be interesting when it gets released one day.
 
Snowdog said:
It remains to be seen how it works out in practice. Poor black levels aren't the only LCD problem, and it's the only one that Dual Layer purports to fix.

Just like FALD backlights sound good in hype, and are disappointing in practice. I wouldn't count dual LCD being all that great.

Not being obsessed by screen brightness, OLED already looks like the best of all worlds to me for TV.

We have this wonderful technology innovation at my house, called curtains, that makes my current LCD TV usable in daytime on the those rare occasions and it's not even as bright as an OLED TV. An OLED would just be better in every way.
Click to expand...
As I noted above i agree i'm not optimistic on dual cell - but hopeful. The China release i saw was quite poor. My living room area is open concept and has vaulted ceiling and huge windows that I can't shade (within my price range at least). Certainly many LR's can. I'm thinking of the scenario of having friends over on a sat or sun afternoon to watch a game and have a party where i wouldn't want to draw the shades yet have a TV that performs in 1000 lux (plus watching w family at night). I certainly understand the OLED decision. I'd love to have a 48" for my bedroom but can't justify it right now. Competitors to LG WOLED are looking for holes in the armor. LG WOLED's primary weakness (IMO of course) is peak brightness (and associated LED lifetime if driven hard) per our discussion above. Dolby has its 4K and 10K nit roadmap with plenty of evidence that people prefer those peak numbers whether we ever really get there or not. Competition won't just let LG sit on top for ever. Others will try to exploit it. SDC is trying QD-OLED for better brightness and color but we all know there is a learning (and cost) curve there that might crash and burn (or best case carry them over to QNED later this decade using most of the same process equipment). Plus SVD hasn't committed to buying the tech! Internal politics are fascinating. Oops, i'm getting off topic again. Cheers-
 
Bytor2112 said:
LG WOLED's primary weakness (IMO of course) is peak brightness (and associated LED lifetime if driven hard) per our discussion above. Dolby has its 4K and 10K nit roadmap with plenty of evidence that people prefer those peak numbers whether we ever really get there or not. Competition won't just let LG sit on top for ever. Others will try to exploit it. SDC is trying QD-OLED for better brightness and color but we all know there is a learning (and cost) curve there that might crash and burn (or best case carry them over to QNED later this decade using most of the same process equipment). Plus SVD hasn't committed to buying the tech! Internal politics are fascinating. Oops, i'm getting off topic again. Cheers-
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QNED is science fiction for the foreseeable future.

Competitors are of course keen on finding an angle when stuck on inferior technology. Hardly anyone cared about brightness until LG started having success with OLED, and then Samsung started beating the brightness drum, as the only thing LCD can do better.

LCDs were no brighter than OLED, when OLED started it's run at TVs, and I would bet most still aren't. It's only high end sets pushing and marketing super brightness.
 
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Snowdog said:
QNED is science fiction for the foreseeable future.

Competitors are of course keen on finding an angle when stuck on inferior technology. Hardly anyone cared about brightness until LG started having success with OLED, and then Samsung started beating the brightness drum, as the only thing LCD can do better.

LCDs were no brighter than OLED, when OLED started it's run at TVs, and I would bet most still aren't. It's only high end sets pushing and marketing super brightness.
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Of course, but it's happening nonetheless.
 
Snowdog said:
This really seems like one to keep an eye on for reviews. A potential game changer for LCD TV/Monitors. It was at CES but now it has a price and is supposedly shipping next month.

It's the layering of a 1080p monocrhome LCD to modulate the backlight and a color 4K LCD for the final picture. Pricing is not too bad either as I assume those are Australian dollars.

https://www.techguide.com.au/news/t...ual-cell-tv-black-levels-oled-brightness-led/
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Didn't sony already do this?
 
Snowdog said:
HDTV recently tested a Plasma Max brightness: 140 nits 10% window, and 35 nits full screen.


I think Panasonic did a pro dual layer panel and Sony used it in a $30K pro monitor.
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I don't think they ever claimed to have a second lcd, but were saying it had per pixel local dimming, so people just kinda guessed.
 
https://www.sammobile.com/news/samsung-china-oled-theft-arrests-charges
Samsung has been feigning all along about OLED. They have a printed version that was being developed, stolen, and sold to China it seems. I knew they didn't pull out of OLED tech, but man they tried hard with QLED/MicroLED to make it look like they were done with OLED. Oh and this TV is $400 cheaper than the 77" Sony OLED on Amazon. Yeah, this tech will be dead AGAIN soon. Don't care what you do to spruce it up, LCD is still LCD with all the problems of LCD. With printable OLED and prices dropping, LCD will be gone sooner than later. JOLED has TCL on board for printed OLED too. https://www.j-oled.com/eng/press/20200619 If we had CES in 2021 I would bet Samsung would re-introduce itself to the OLED market then.
Soon LG Display won't be the only panel maker in the OLED development.
 
Sooner more manufactures the better. I want my 100" Oled to get rid of my projector.;)
 
I like the idea and all, but at a price of $3500 for a 65", why would anyone bother? You can get an actual 65" OLED for often under $2k
 
Parja said:
$3500 AUD, so ~$2500 USD.
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That's a little better, but you can get the LG CX for the same price and the Sony A8H for a little less. So, even though this tech might have some potential, I'd still rather get (and would recommend) an OLED instead. This would need to come in much closer to the 2K mark, or less, to make sense in the current market.
 
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