Tech Companies Are Starting to Give Up on Degrees

[Megalith]

The technology industry is reportedly putting less emphasis on four-year degrees when it comes to recruiting talent. Companies suggest that traditional hiring practices aren’t working well for increasing diversity, and that it makes more sense to hire based on skill rather than educational background. A coding bootcamp or similar skills program could, evidently, get you a nice gig at a company such as IBM.

IBM’s head of talent organization, Sam Ladah, calls this sort of initiative a focus on “new-collar jobs.” The idea, he says, is to look toward different applicant pools to find new talent. “We consider them based on their skills,” he says, and don’t take into account their educational background. This includes applicants who didn’t get a four-year degree but have proven their technical knowledge in other ways. Some have technical certifications, and others have enrolled in other skills programs. “We’ve been very successful in hiring from [coding] bootcamps,” says Ladah.

 

[Mchart]

Only going to get better. The value of a degree has gone way down, and a lot of what is being taught isn't relevant to the work place.

 

[Ducman69]

In... increasing diversity? So that's the benchmark now? Hi, I'm Sam Ladah, I work for IBM. Our primary product is diversity. We found that things like "qualifications" reduced our diversity yields.

Why not have a goal of increasing productivity or increasing quality of services or increasing talent or something. What does "increasing diversity" tangibly and objectively increase, other than being a PC goal in and of itself that discriminates against certain "over-represented" applications based on identity politics? "Sure, she may not have any background, experience, or training as a network engineer, but check out her diversity score, she's a half-african-american half Cherokee gender fluid lesbian... a gold mine!"

 

[collegeboy69us]

Well any company that's happy to sacrifice the end product or quality along the way, all in the name of "diversity" can suck it.

What's the end game here that people pushing diversity want? Do they really want to be able to say "our whole workforce is perfectly balanced and includes an equal distribution of white/black/brown/purple/green people as well as perfectly split split gender ratio. If you are running a business and giving your customers 100%, you don't care how you get it, you hire the best period.

If the base pool of applicants always turns out to be a white male, maybe instead of forcing companies via social pressure or lawsuits to hire less than qualified people, you should solve the problem of getting the next generation of black/white/purple/green women interested in the tech world. Address the issue at the source and not put a feel good bandaid on the problem.

If I was an employer paying money for a skilled position, I wouldn't care what color/gender is in the seat, just that they are the best at the job. I've seen first hand the results of that gung-ho approach to diversity it's not good for the business in the form it's applied. A particular woman of a particular race was setup in a manager position at work, she was dumber than a box of rocks, constantly messing up big time on major projects but was given a free pass every time because she ticked a bunch of boxes that made the company look super awesome at diversity. If I did 1/2 the screwups she did, I'd be out the door on my ass. If equality is what people really want, holding certain people to lower standards because they tick a bunch of boxes on the diversity form is a great way to divide the work place.

 

[HeadRusch]

So, translated, they're willing to lower their standards to hire anyone willing to learn a little bit of tech..and willing to work 80 hour weeks as standard for the low, low price of free store-brand sodas in the break room and a semi-functional ping pong table.

 

[NickJames]

So, translated, they're willing to lower their standards to hire anyone willing to learn a little bit of tech..and willing to work 80 hour weeks as standard for the low, low price of free store-brand sodas in the break room and a semi-functional ping pong table.

Just because you don't have a degree doesn't mean you shouldn't know your worth. A little bargaining goes a long way. If a company only wants to base my salary on what a piece of paper says rather than my actual skill set then fuck'em.

I am glad this is happening, I hope more and more places start to hire based on other criteria. The educational system in this country is a fucking joke. Why should I spend half my working life paying off a debt for an entry level job in my study? $300 a credit for a community college? Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit. Nothing a few Microsoft and CISCO certs can't fake.

 

[jedijeb13]

While the diversity based on race and gender are problems these days, the original story wasn't focused on that point. The diversity there was talking about diversity of skills that are needed to give the employee base a wider range of abilities.

Terrible degree programs at major universities is not only a problem in the computer industry. We look for chemist in our laboratory and in the last several years I can say that hiring someone with a degree from a major university has usually resulted in disappointment. Many of these universities have very large classes and students do not get the one on one teaching of those in the small schools. They also graduate without ever having spent time doing any practical work, only work on paper. The ones from small schools usually have more hands on experience doing laboratory work or work with analytical instruments. The skill set of someone who has been in more of a mentoring program than a purely academic program, is much more diverse and useful and more likely ready to jump right in to the job instead of struggling with a high learning curve. Give me someone from a small school who was also raised on a farm or rural background any day, they seem to have much more common sense and critical thinking skills.

 

[Ducman69]

So, translated, they're willing to lower their standards to hire anyone willing to learn a little bit of tech..and willing to work 80 hour weeks as standard for the low, low price of free store-brand sodas in the break room and a semi-functional ping pong table.

Pretty sure they are a Pepsi only company.

What's the end game here that people pushing diversity want? Do they really want to be able to say "our whole workforce is perfectly balanced and includes an equal distribution of white/black/brown/purple/green people as well as perfectly split split gender ratio.

Posted about it before, but lets look at what "perfect diversity score" looks like: https://hardforum.com/threads/intel...-stance-on-diversity.1897734/#post-1042254915

The NBA received the highest diversity reportcard score for professional sports, in spite of black males comprising 6.1% of the US population, but making up 74.4% of the NBA. Asians males comprise 2.8% of the US population, but only 0.2% of the NBA, with white males also severely underrepresented. Meanwhile the MLB which is more representative of the US population received poor marks.

Oddly though, this same political movement tells us that every individual is a snow-flake and not defined by their socio-economic status or race, and yet at the same time will force identity politics on the workplace and insist that if you have 8 white and 2 asian engineers on your team that you have zero diversity, because all white people and honorary white-asians, as many in the left now consider them, must all think and act the same as lemmings, defined by their income and race.

Of course in the end a lot of this crap is just lipservice, pulling a Pepsi and exploiting liberal politics/culture for financial gain. Lately when a tech company says they want to increase diversity, what they really mean is that they want to fire expensive Western workers and outsource their jobs to India in the name of cost savings, while at the same time upper management lavishes themselves in massive cash bonuses, with a CEO to average worker income at the most highest insane levels in history (and the globe for that matter). By playing it off as "increasing diversity" though, they shield themselves from criticism since anyone that would write a smear piece about these tactics would be written off as a racist (a death-blow to the liberal leaning MSM).

 

[Ducman69]

While the diversity based on race and gender are problems these days, the original story wasn't focused on that point. The diversity there was talking about diversity of skills that are needed to give the employee base a wider range of abilities.

Bullshit.

The technology industry is now trying to figure out a way to attack its cultural and demographic homogeneity issues. Before becoming a front-end engineer at IBM Design, Randy Tolentino worked as both a hip-hop artist and after-school program educator. Similarly, the company has been trying to get a foothold in high schools by funding initiatives to boost computer science curricula for both the Oakland Unified School District (primarily black/latino school district, 11% white) and an Arizona-based high-school oriented program called Next Generation of Native American Coders.

All the related articles from this author concern race and gender in the workplace, including the linked article on "tech company diversity data" concerning race and gender breakup of their employees.

Just look at the site it comes from, and it couldn't be more stereotypically leftist if it tried, praising Bernie Sanders and focusing on promoting minority and female leadership: https://www.fastcompany.com

Its the stereotypical "promoting diversity" means you have too many white guys, which gets annoying after a while of people telling you there's something wrong with you because of your skin color and there's "too many of you people".

 

[jedijeb13]

Pretty sure they are a Pepsi only company.

Posted about it before, but lets look at what "perfect diversity score" looks like: https://hardforum.com/threads/intel...-stance-on-diversity.1897734/#post-1042254915

The NBA received the highest diversity reportcard score for professional sports, in spite of black males comprising 6.1% of the US population, but making up 74.4% of the NBA. Asians males comprise 2.8% of the US population, but only 0.2% of the NBA, with white males also severely underrepresented. Meanwhile the MLB which is more representative of the US population received poor marks.

Oddly though, this same political movement tells us that every individual is a snow-flake and not defined by their socio-economic status or race, and yet at the same time will force identity politics on the workplace and insist that if you have 8 white and 2 asian engineers on your team that you have zero diversity, because all white people and honorary white-asians, as many in the left now consider them, must all think and act the same as lemmings, defined by their income and race.

Of course in the end a lot of this crap is just lipservice, pulling a Pepsi and exploiting liberal politics/culture for financial gain. Lately when a tech company says they want to increase diversity, what they really mean is that they want to fire expensive Western workers and outsource their jobs to India in the name of cost savings, while at the same time upper management lavishes themselves in massive cash bonuses, with a CEO to average worker income at the most highest insane levels in history (and the globe for that matter). By playing it off as "increasing diversity" though, they shield themselves from criticism since anyone that would write a smear piece about these tactics would be written off as a racist (a death-blow to the liberal leaning MSM).

My uncle once told me about a company he worked with, back probably in the 90s, that had a government official show up spouting off that someone complained they did not have enough minorities working for them. When the president of the company took the official on a tour of the plant, he asked how many minorities he should have. The government official gave him a number, and standing there in the plant and looking at an employee list he discovered he actually had one more minority than was required. So in front of the government official he fired one minority employee and told the official "Now I am completely compliant with your rules". The official was not happy but could not do anything to him and left.

On the positive side, the president of the company rehired they fired person before he left the building, but he did get his point across to the government. It didn't matter to him who a person was, he would hire them if they were qualified, and sometimes the government just needs to keep their noses out of peoples business.

 

[vegeta535]

This just translate to being able to hire people at lot lower rate.

 

[jedijeb13]

Bullshit.

All the related articles from this author concern race and gender in the workplace, including the linked article on "tech company diversity data" concerning race and gender breakup of ".

The technology industry is reportedly putting less emphasis on four-year degrees when it comes to recruiting talent. Companies suggest that traditional hiring practices aren’t working well for increasing diversity, and that it makes more sense to hire based on skill rather than educational background. A coding bootcamp or similar skills program could, evidently, get you a nice gig at a company such as IBM.

IBM’s head of talent organization, Sam Ladah, calls this sort of initiative a focus on “new-collar jobs.” The idea, he says, is to look toward different applicant pools to find new talent. “We consider them based on their skills,” he says, and don’t take into account their educational background. This includes applicants who didn’t get a four-year degree but have proven their technical knowledge in other ways. Some have technical certifications, and others have enrolled in other skills programs. “We’ve been very successful in hiring from [coding] bootcamps,” says Ladah.

This is what I was referring to. That talks about skill taking precedence over degrees.

 

[DukenukemX]

This makes more sense, as a lot of the degrees and certifications just end up costing money. They don't prove anything other than you're in debt. On the other hand, I can't help but feel like this is also a way to get cheaper labor, and that's not a good thing.

 

[DooKey]

I guess all the SJW degree programs aren't worth the paper their written on.

 

[Ducman69]

This is what I was referring to. That talks about skill taking precedence over degrees.

And then goes on to talk about how they hired a rapper and can use experience with video games over a degree or certifications in the field, in order to increase racial and gender diversity goals. In other words, its an excuse to give less qualified women and minorities preference in the application process for competitive jobs. How would you like it if you had all these certs and a degree and were passed over by a dropout hip-hop artist, because they already have too many of your race/gender? Sounds pretty crappy to me.

 

[WorldExclusive]

This makes more sense, as a lot of the degrees and certifications just end up costing money. They don't prove anything other than you're in debt. On the other hand, I can't help but feel like this is also a way to get cheaper labor, and that's not a good thing.

Since I have been a business owner in tech, not one company asked for my degree, they all asked for my portfolio.
Also, I place the value on myself. Cheaper labor doesn't always apply, but there's less bloat by dealing with a contractor than a big firm, which leads to lower costs for the client.

The American job market is behind the times. There's too much competition form the outside world to cherry pick talent based on a hiring managers intuition. Prove yourself and then you can work. Asking " Tell me about yourself? " in an interview doesn't work, it's mostly lies. A lot of "social status" goes into people wanting to hire from certain schools or backgrounds, thus a lack of diversity.

 

[-PK-]

It depends on whether the school has a good degree program or not. When I was fresh out of high school, I wanted to become a software engineer. I took a one semester course for programming at community college and I didn't learn much that I didn't already know. When I transferred to a major university, they didn't have a program director or adviser for software engineering. My degree was going to require about 143 credits due to campus wide lab requirements that they added. In my first semester there, due to criticism from other students, one of the GSI instructors said that after passing the first semester of programming, you've already been taught how to code and the rest of your degree is about theory and managing projects, that no one here can teach you how to improve your code. All of their programming course assignments were java assignments taken from Brown University that anyone can access for free, and their programming courses were taught by GSI's, so if my bachelor's degree was centered around one semester of learning how to code in java at a community college, that degree would have been worthless. I wasn't going to learn how to code in C++ by going to that university, which by today's standards increases a software engineer's salary by about $30,000 per year. The other popular option, ITT Tech, closed all of their schools for abusive financial practices. However, if you're talking about a school that takes software engineering seriously, that degree would be worth a lot.

 

[HeadRusch]

Just because you don't have a degree doesn't mean you shouldn't know your worth. A little bargaining goes a long way. If a company only wants to base my salary on what a piece of paper says rather than my actual skill set then fuck'em.

I am glad this is happening, I hope more and more places start to hire based on other criteria. The educational system in this country is a fucking joke. Why should I spend half my working life paying off a debt for an entry level job in my study? $300 a credit for a community college? Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit. Nothing a few Microsoft and CISCO certs can't fake.

Not defending degrees, I'm just saying you can read this message many ways. I like the idea of being able to, basically, fast-track yourself into some kind of career with job-specific coding skills, absolutely. But I also understand that college is another vetting process for life.....it has a purpose beyond taking random classes. If a job is going to fast-track you into some Best-Practices coding skills, that's great, but at the same time don't get used..and its easy to get used and burned-out if you aren't smart...and going to college lets you talk and think, ususally, on a better level than you might have without it.

 

[Balkroth]

4Year engineering degrees barely mean anything these days, even Masters are losing their oomf unless they're in specific areas. (which they should be)

 

[SuperSubZero]

I recently (mid-life) got my BS in IT, and I got it from an online school so some people wouldn't even count it, but there it is.

Before this, I had applied at [big co] to work in their data center. A trivial job, I've done DC work for years in different places. I've even been a team lead in a DC and been praised for my work. So [big co] gave me ALL kinds of grief about lacking a degree, but they still offered me a job. They even said "only 5% of our employees don't have degrees, this is a special privilege for you!".. Then they offered me absolute trash for salary, so I declined it.

I also had an employer, for a job paying like $17 an hour, criticize me for not having a degree, not because it gives any kind of skill, but because "it means you care enough about this type of work to spend a lot of time and money on it." I walked out of that interview, after driving over 80 miles to it.

I'm really happy now, I have a great job where I am paid fairly for my work, I'm not overworked, there's decent perks, and they don't care about my education. When I pursued my online degree the response from my manager was a resounding "why?" (tho I did learn enough Python to do some productive stuff, and while they don't do education reimbursement, they got me a decent bonus that essentially paid for my school).

 

[Galvin]

College is way over priced. This is a good thing imo.

 

[Derfman]

And then goes on to talk about how they hired a rapper and can use experience with video games over a degree or certifications in the field, in order to increase racial and gender diversity goals. In other words, its an excuse to give less qualified women and minorities preference in the application process for competitive jobs. How would you like it if you had all these certs and a degree and were passed over by a dropout hip-hop artist, because they already have too many of your race/gender? Sounds pretty crappy to me.

I highly doubt that your over exaggeration of racial stereotypes is what you will find in the information technology work field. I've worked with many black people back when I was in IT and none of the above is even remotely true. Just keep on pigeon holing people into your cookie cutter shapes of fallacy and I'll continue to sit over here wondering why we modernized the world to the point where we have left Darwin in the rear view mirror.

 

[ManofGod]

So, translated, they're willing to lower their standards to hire anyone willing to learn a little bit of tech..and willing to work 80 hour weeks as standard for the low, low price of free store-brand sodas in the break room and a semi-functional ping pong table.

Really dude? Degrees themselves do not mean jack if you cannot actually do what you were taught to do. I do not have a degree in the IT position I am in and there is no degree that would teach a person what I am able to do on a daily basis.

 

[Gigus Fire]

Really dude? Degrees themselves do not mean jack if you cannot actually do what you were taught to do. I do not have a degree in the IT position I am in and there is no degree that would teach a person what I am able to do on a daily basis.

Unfortunately not having the necessary degrees can limit your growth in a field.
Companies should love this. Give low level jobs with limited growth to people who are unqualified and ride them at low salaries. After 5-10 years you may be able to sell what you've done to another company and continue your career from there.
Diversity is shit.

 

[Tsumi]

Not defending degrees, I'm just saying you can read this message many ways. I like the idea of being able to, basically, fast-track yourself into some kind of career with job-specific coding skills, absolutely. But I also understand that college is another vetting process for life.....it has a purpose beyond taking random classes. If a job is going to fast-track you into some Best-Practices coding skills, that's great, but at the same time don't get used..and its easy to get used and burned-out if you aren't smart...and going to college lets you talk and think, ususally, on a better level than you might have without it.

BS. Most universities, especially more liberal ones, are more interested in telling you what to think rather than how to think.

 

[nutzo]

Just because you don't have a degree doesn't mean you shouldn't know your worth.

I am glad this is happening, I hope more and more places start to hire based on other criteria. The educational system in this country is a joke. Why should I spend half my working life paying off a debt for an entry level job in my study? $300 a credit for a community college? Nothing a few Microsoft and CISCO certs can't fake.

I agree and it about time. College costs are completely out of line, and the quality of the education at many institutions is falling due to all the PC garbage.

I'd rather higher someone who has worked their way up the ladder as opposed to someone who has run up a 6 figure college debt and is living in their parents basement.

 

[nutzo]

Really dude? Degrees themselves do not mean jack if you cannot actually do what you were taught to do. I do not have a degree in the IT position I am in and there is no degree that would teach a person what I am able to do on a daily basis.

+1

I only have a 2 year degree, but I make more money (according to several studies I've seen the past few years) than the average person with a BA.
My degree is in electronics, not IT, and there is little I use from my college days.

Besides, what degree would teach me how to work on phone systems, do desktop/laptop support, application support, servers, firewalls, SQL, Exchange, backup, contracts for wan/internet links, along with buying all the equipment while keeping on a tight budget?

 

[LightsOut41]

Could have told you this 20 years ago.

 

[nutzo]

I recently (mid-life) got my BS in IT, and I got it from an online school so some people wouldn't even count it, but there it is.

Before this, I had applied at [big co] to work in their data center. A trivial job, I've done DC work for years in different places. I've even been a team lead in a DC and been praised for my work. So [big co] gave me ALL kinds of grief about lacking a degree, but they still offered me a job. They even said "only 5% of our employees don't have degrees, this is a special privilege for you!".. Then they offered me absolute trash for salary, so I declined it.

I also had an employer, for a job paying like $17 an hour, criticize me for not having a degree, not because it gives any kind of skill, but because "it means you care enough about this type of work to spend a lot of time and money on it." I walked out of that interview, after driving over 80 miles to it.

That's a large part of the problem, It's usually caused by clueless people who spent way to much for their own degree.

Years ago I worked for a manager who would hire someone with a degree in basket weaving (and no experience), over someone with 10 years experience but no degree.
He didn't hire me (and I doubt he would have), as I was moved into his department during a company reorganization.
Guy was clueless (but he had a nice degree hanging in his office), and was eventually fired when most of his department turned on him and let him take the blame for all the problems.

 

[Ducman69]

I highly doubt that your over exaggeration of racial stereotypes is what you will find in the information technology work field. I've worked with many black people back when I was in IT and none of the above is even remotely true. Just keep on pigeon holing people into your cookie cutter shapes of fallacy and I'll continue to sit over here wondering why we modernized the world to the point where we have left Darwin in the rear view mirror.

What are you talking about?

What "racial stereotype" did I make? Do you realize that quote is word for word FROM THE ARTICLE. You're calling me a racist for quoting from the article that I'm calling racist??? *facepalm*

So if I say Hitler is a racist, and use a racist quote from him to prove it, you're going to call me a racist for quoting Hitler? A little reading comprehension goes a long way, lmao!

 

[steakman1971]

I got a degree in computer science and was software developer for several years - now I manage developers (not a promotion in my book...another topic). Anyway, things I think are valuable from a CS degree:
-Object oriented concepts
-Data structures/algorithms
-Learning at least a language or two with a little experience.

Do you need a 4 year degree for this? No. It could easily be taught in a 2 year program. Besides my CS classes, I had to take a bunch of liberal arts crap, non-western perspective, philosophy, lots of match I never use, etc. Some of this was useful (philosophy helped me to become a better writer - my professor was tough with his papers and I am still influenced by that mean old bastard).

My ideal job candidate would be someone that has worked on projects on their own. The degree is a check box for HR - but showing me something you developed and learned is passion. They don't teach this in school.

 

[c_porter]

I own a small software development company. We do not care one bit about degrees when hiring (and never have). I don't know anyone in my network who does, either. It's always just "show me what you've done and convince me you'll provide more value than the pay you demand." These are mostly issues for large firms with poor managers or managers who don't/can't control HR's role during hiring.

I can't speak for other parts of the IT world, but if you're a developer with no degree then small businesses are no problem at all. Assuming you don't suck. If you're bad and don't have a degree to sneak into a large firm you're gonna have a bad time.

 

[sfsuphysics]

So they'll get H-1Bs that go super quick as they don't have to wait for them to finish college at the Mumbai Institute of Technology (MIT)

 

[Ducman69]

So they'll get H-1Bs that go super quick as they don't have to wait for them to finish college at the Mumbai Institute of Technology (MIT)

Hopefully that changes soon, or you're going to achieve an equilibrium REALLY quick, where you won't have first and second and third world countries, just a global 2.5 world country with an ever smaller and wealthier global elite. The world's average salary is only $1,225 per employed person, and while it may be quite average for an adult to make $50K in the US, get ready to watch that plummet if globalism continues at its current pace with non-existent borders, major outsourcing, and massive visa issuance. Personally, since I'm in a first world country and don't own my own business that can exploit third world country wages domestically and have all my stuff here, I'd kind of like to keep it a first world country and slow down the race to the bottom.

 

[zalazin]

Always said if I ever owned a company I would throw out anyone that just waved a degree in my face. I did IT for years for a Very rich UNCLE... went to whole bunch of schools at Uncle's expense and 90 percent of what I learned never was used. Hell, I learned more from experience, Hardocp, and other hardware websites than ANY paid school.. total waste of time......

 

[infinity9]

It's as if there are a bunch of executives out there that think we have all these geniuses in waiting to do IT. I've been doing this for years and I can tell you even with the qualified people the average skill is low. There are so few people who are truly good and understand the bigger picture, not just good at a specific task. And they think you are just going to inspire people to do IT/tech? It's not teachable, its drive by passion not classes, see ITT etc. It requires some of the most intelligence of any profession but it's value is no where near the top professions in general.

 

[zalazin]

So true and on top of that you are totally unappreciated... My boss once introduced me as his geek....

 

[Master_shake_]

So true and on top of that you are totally unappreciated... My boss once introduced me as his geek....

Should have introduced him as "this asshole over here"

 

[schoolslave]

Really dude? Degrees themselves do not mean jack if you cannot actually do what you were taught to do. I do not have a degree in the IT position I am in and there is no degree that would teach a person what I am able to do on a daily basis.

Well that sure explains a lot...

 

[Dan_D]

This has been the trend for many years. Companies got sick of college kids who didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground.