Suggestions for HardOCP Eval Process

Skrying said:
Yes, but you had to replace those parts yourself. Think of it this way, when something like that happened then there could have been a very large chance that the user would have had to wait a good while to get those parts and also maybe even have to ship the system in themselves. Also, what happens if the buyer doesnt know how to replace those?
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You are very correct and if you read I think we pointed that out in the review as well.
 
Skrying said:
Yes, but you had to replace those parts yourself. Think of it this way, when something like that happened then there could have been a very large chance that the user would have had to wait a good while to get those parts and also maybe even have to ship the system in themselves. Also, what happens if the buyer doesnt know how to replace those?
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I may not have made it clear that VM would assess the competency of the customer and decide whether or not to ship the system back for repair.
 
Really my only complaint would be to compare it to other pre-built rigs and a custom rig you guys built.
 
Skrying said:
Yes, but you had to replace those parts yourself.
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Well, in this instance, I think they did that because they know Kyle and Morley and what they were doing with the system.
 
Excellent review guys, I was much more entertained then the 1 page reviews in Maximum PC (which is starting to feel like an advertising supplement).

In my opinion all the bases were covered thoroughly. I hope to see alot more coming soon.

My only complaint is I would have liked to see a picture of the side of the case with the panel off. I saw the two pictures but the rad was in the way, It would have been nice to see a shot of the whole case from the side to get an idea of all the cabling and how clean the look is. I guess it wouldnt have made mucha a difference because the rad blocks half the view though.
 
Scroatdog said:
Well, in this instance, I think they did that because they know Kyle and Morley and what they were doing with the system.
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Then that makes the entire review one-sided. Understandably they might've noted things such as them being able to ship back the PC but the bottom line remains-- the review was not done in that fashion. They did not return the computer back. They did not test their patience with their "incompetencies". They were simply acting as enthusiasts in this.

If they intend on having themselves mainstreamed, then they ought to have that perspective of them being new to computers. Although I do understand the intention behind the review-- that it was for builders or workers that simply do not have the time build for others or themselves. For that, the review does perfectly fine. But then again, they don't want to touch the inside case. Points should be drastically reduced if they're forced to touch the inside.

There has to be a firm boundary between what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

-J.
 
Thanks for your thoughts GeForceX. Your opinions on this have been noted. No sense beating a dead horse. Thanks for the feedback it is highly appreciated, but restating your position over and over is not needed. Please let some others share their thoughts without having to deal with your direct arguments. Others have a right to their opinions as well.
 
I think this is an awesome idea for [H], and I'm glad to see them "leading the pack", so to speak. The one thing I find most intriguing about this idea is that you as the reviewer truely are stressing the system. Sure, the video card issue would have been viewable from any reviewer, as even the most basic of reviews would include a gaming benchmark. However, what I don't think a publication such as Maximum PC or Computer Shopper would have ever unvieled is the stability issue involving the power supply.

I can think of no other publication or website where they would, quite literally, have the balls to run a quad Prime95 benchmarking test.
 
Chris and Kyle,

I really enjoyed the review, and think you were dead on for knocking us for the failed motherboard (the v-regs were fried, but the PSU ultimately tested fine when it arrived back) and the wrong video card. The motherboard was a pre-production part, and the video card was also a pre-production testing mule we were using to build the numerous 840XE review units that went out while we waited for a shipment of the X850XT PE. That card was never to be shipped in any system, and we would certainly not expect to get that glaring fault past you guys. It was pure stupidity on our part. The unanswered support call was particularly embarrassing, but we discovered a phone system forwarding error at our service provider was the cause of that and was already fixed that weekend.

All were major failures on our part, and we deserved the scores. These are explanation, not excuses. Nuff said.

As for sending Chris a new board and PSU, it was after discussing the options with him and letting him decide how to fix the issue. Also available to him were returning the system to us for the repairs or having a local repair contractor visit him and install the new parts. Any customer would also have these options available to them, in accordance with our standard warranty coverage. This allows experienced user to fix problems themselves, while noobs are also taken care of with a little more hand holding.

I originally told Kyle how we were terrified to send a review to [H] and these are exactly the reasons why. You didn’t miss a thing. While I sincerely plead that all three of these missteps are anomalies that are way beyond our normal standards, I’m glad to let you decide. We are still happy to provide another review unit - anything you want next time to meet any price range. This time buy it anonymously and I guaranty to honor our return policy without the usual restocking fees. That’s the only way you can experience what any other buyer gets.

Thanks for the fair coverage.

Randy Copeland
President & CEO
Velocity Micro, Inc.

PS - I get involved in many customer support issues regularly, not just for reviewers. I also love answering sales calls - at least one or two everyday. I’m an enthusiast first.
 
Well I'll give you this at least you took the time to register and offer explanations and provide remedies for most of the problems mentioned. That is more than most head honchos would do.

EDIT: And as for being terrified about sending a review unit to HardOCP...I would be too lol because they know what they are talking about. Any company that is willing to send a review unit shows that they stand behind their product as they will find just about any flaw that there is versus and PC magazine.
 
Do the people who fork down 500+ premium for a pre-built monster actually read these forums?
 
Jodiuh said:
Do the people who fork down 500+ premium for a pre-built monster actually read these forums?
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Gotta start somewhere. If people pass around the link to the reviews that the [H] does then they could eventually become a place that people start to look for for reviews.
 
I'm very impressed to see you post on these boards. Its nice to see you get involved, and yes I must give it to you that sending one of your system to a real and hardcore site like [H]ardOCP does take balls.

You have shown that your company at the very least has a soul to it and is not just a mindless borg.
 
I liked the review and agree -- along with everyone else -- that it was more thorough that anything you would see in the computer magazines. One thing that I noticed in the magazines, though, is that the different manufacturers (through their ad pages) often advertise competing systems with the same or similar specs from each other, with each manufacturer saying that their computers are better than everyone else's. I think that in the future you should review a group of computers from different manufacturers with similar (if not identical) setups and, in addition to the benchmarks and testing, explain what each manufacturer did to make their computer "unique" (i.e., did they overclock their system to reach a certain point, did they use proprietary hardware, etc.).
 
Velocity_Micro said:
Chris and Kyle,

I really enjoyed the review, and think you were dead on for knocking us for the failed motherboard (the v-regs were fried, but the PSU ultimately tested fine when it arrived back) and the wrong video card. The motherboard was a pre-production part, and the video card was also a pre-production testing mule we were using to build the numerous 840XE review units that went out while we waited for a shipment of the X850XT PE. That card was never to be shipped in any system, and we would certainly not expect to get that glaring fault past you guys. It was pure stupidity on our part. The unanswered support call was particularly embarrassing, but we discovered a phone system forwarding error at our service provider was the cause of that and was already fixed that weekend.

All were major failures on our part, and we deserved the scores. These are explanation, not excuses. Nuff said.

As for sending Chris a new board and PSU, it was after discussing the options with him and letting him decide how to fix the issue. Also available to him were returning the system to us for the repairs or having a local repair contractor visit him and install the new parts. Any customer would also have these options available to them, in accordance with our standard warranty coverage. This allows experienced user to fix problems themselves, while noobs are also taken care of with a little more hand holding.

I originally told Kyle how we were terrified to send a review to [H] and these are exactly the reasons why. You didn’t miss a thing. While I sincerely plead that all three of these missteps are anomalies that are way beyond our normal standards, I’m glad to let you decide. We are still happy to provide another review unit - anything you want next time to meet any price range. This time buy it anonymously and I guaranty to honor our return policy without the usual restocking fees. That’s the only way you can experience what any other buyer gets.

Thanks for the fair coverage.

Randy Copeland
President & CEO
Velocity Micro, Inc.

PS - I get involved in many customer support issues regularly, not just for reviewers. I also love answering sales calls - at least one or two everyday. I’m an enthusiast first.
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DAMN your a guy id be proud to work under, that reply took balls! truly [H] worthy :)

and if you read back, have you tried any other watercooling solutions like coolermasters mini kit? performs VERY well in all the reviews ive seen :)
 
Kudos to Randy Copeland for replying on the boards. I have to say that I did check out VM's site after reading that review and played around with a few systems. I did note that they had good warranty options such as at home service on some of them, which eliminated some of my worries about the review and having the head guy help with tech support. Though I wish that Michael Dell would answer two of his tech support calls a day :p

Kyle, you should definitely take Randy up on his offer to review another system and grab something in a price range I could reccomend to my mom or a non-gaming friend!
 
0mega said:
DAMN your a guy id be proud to work under, that reply took balls! truly [H] worthy :)

and if you read back, have you tried any other watercooling solutions like coolermasters mini kit? performs VERY well in all the reviews ive seen :)
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We've looked at the CoolerMaster unit and liked it very much. It will be harder for us to ship installed in units than the system we used for this review, and we love the SD unit. Regretfully, we have to consider shipping and warranty in our product designs as much as performance sometimes.
 
icthus13 said:
Kudos to Randy Copeland for replying on the boards. I have to say that I did check out VM's site after reading that review and played around with a few systems. I did note that they had good warranty options such as at home service on some of them, which eliminated some of my worries about the review and having the head guy help with tech support. Though I wish that Michael Dell would answer two of his tech support calls a day :p

Kyle, you should definitely take Randy up on his offer to review another system and grab something in a price range I could reccomend to my mom or a non-gaming friend!
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Well a non-gamer can easily find a system for around $500 that will meet all of their needs.

I think great price range is the $1,500~$2,000 one. Top tier gaming, but with a more real life budget.
 
RogerX said:
If they are advertising an 850XT PE, and send you a too-hot, highly-overclocked 850XT non-PE, that is a problem. If they are advertising a retail product at 4.0GHz and have you clocking down to 3.6GHz for testing, which causes you to discover a deficiency in the attention to detail in the cooling system installation, both build quality and stability scores should suffer..
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QFT, If I was reviewer, they would have failed horribly. They cant adv. 4GHz and have you clock down to torture test. That is the biggest bull I have ever heard. Why dont the just adv. 5GHz dual core p4, but say if you run any load you have to clock down
:rolleyes:
 
Let's define "tech support" and what it really means regarding a Full Comp System(OEM) and the purchaser. What this really means to the buyer.

I bought the E-System (in sig below) from Monarchcomputer.com and the 3.5 floppy did not work on arrival. I also purchased the extra "tech support" that made me "feel" safe. :rolleyes: Well all you get is a guy in a hell of a rush on the phone(most of the times). After 2 weeks it was determined that it was the data cable from the mobo and not a bad pwr connection. So I was told to remove it, check my manual and good luck.

For example when you are not an auto mechanic and some rushed guy over the phone says "just change your fuel induction thermistor and you'll be ok, thanks, buy, click". This is virtually what I got and what you will get as well. If little Billy, your neighbor, uncle Fred or sue wants to game but are not PC savy, removing mobo cables, fan cables, etc might as well be brain sugery.

My point is if you are not PC savy, the only "tech support" that will be of any real use is the on site option. Or just save your money and take it to a local tech in your area.

Yes I would buy another custom/prebuilt game rig, but never long distance again. Because if something goes wrong, "tech support" will be oh so polite. But when the dust settles, YOU will be performing the sugery, so save your money or get the on site tech support.

So if you are fortunate to get your super rig running flawlessly, it will beat most basement game rigs out there imho. But if you ever have any serious technical problems you are in trouble. I mean that Monarch will not let you rma a rig until YOU have swapped out everything including the power supply, mobo, all cables, gpu etc.

So what is really meant by "tech support" is you get Bob the geek telling you to replace parts. They will send them to you, YOU install them IF you can and cross your fingers. Part after part after part after part, week after week after week.

I hope that the [H] staff can shed some light on what these companies really mean by "tech support". Not some PR response made by some employee but what they actually do in the real world.

My system eats Doom3 for lunch at high rez and any game for that matter. It is one heck of a system. Just make sure that you understand what your pre-builder really means by "tech support". :rolleyes:

:)
 
GeForceX said:
Err, I consider 5 to be *average*. You might want to consider a poll to see what the majority would consider 7.5 to be. Not that it matters but this is my numbers:

1 = Complete Trash / Barf / Other Insulting Terms.
2.5 = Very poor / Bad.
5 = Average / Fair / Needs work.
7.5 = Above expectations / Not Bad / Satisfactory.
10 = Extremely impressive / Must Buy.
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I agree with this scaling...
 
Good review and a refreshing change to other system reviews i enjoyed the read and couldnt wait to see the photos of the insides, and thats my only argument is that more photos would have been liked im a photo junkie when it comes to internals and i strongly believe that a photo is worth a 1000 words, so may be next time you could take lots of photos and have a seperate page for just them photos from every angle detailing every component and layout and build quality.

I loved the review from the refering a friend to a company when I dont have the time or will to build a quality system for them and give it the love that is needed when building a real pc thats not going to fall over all the time, the comments about the temperature not being right and the level of detail you went to testing is much liked and wanted in the future.

All in all a great review and good attention to detail keep up the good work and more photos please ;)
 
@Kyle,
Regarding a grading system. I agree that stability is job 1, also add in the sellers Warranty service as well in that job 1 rating. Personally I know folks who value warranty service equal to or even higher than initial quality. Their reasoning is simply WHEN something goes wrong eventually I want to know it will be taken care of.
-- So here are my thoughts on a rating service: Creat a Stability / Warranty section that has the numeric check points that directly contribute to the bottom line number. (also put in a 'legend' at the bottom explaining what the bottom line score means. I.E. 7.5 = an over all average experience. We had issues but they were taken care of in a professional and courteous manner. After which all was well. 7.5 would equate to an 'A', 'B', 'C', 'D', 'F', grading system as used in most educational systems.
-- use the Other check points to Add or Subtract over all points from the bottom line score. I.E. Presentation and Packaging would be: Add To, No Add, Subtract from the bottom line score. Gaming Experience too would likely be Add To, No Add, Subtract from bottom line score. In this manner you can essentially do your 70% is for stability ect while reserving 30% for merrits / demerits and maintain Ease of Use that everyone can immediately grasp. Simple and easily tweaked system.

Peace
 
Overall the review was pretty decent. I would have liked to see more testing of the various components. Even a mention of how long it took to install games (and what drive was used) would be usefull. The benhmarks should have been more reproducible so someone could compare with thier equipement. I agree with others that thier should have been a baseline to provide a standard comparison, maybe something like an AMD machine, and an Intel, with both an ATI and Nvidia Graphics.

I should point out that MS DUO's from Sony come with adapters to use in regular memorystick readers. To my knowledge, there are no MS DUO readers.
 
I don't know whether anyone else brought it up yet but I sure would like to see all systems set up as dual-boot so we can see the compatibility of the systems with various OS's, by various OS's I mean Linux :D I always check my hardware for Linux compatibility before I buy , check how it performs under linux because that's where I do my daily routine and work, for gaming I boot Windows just like common folks do. :p It sucks to know that you need a kernel recompile for some nic to work after you bought the system. I know that for performance/gaming systems you are better off not doing this sort of evaluation as their buyers couldn't care less for Linux but for mainstream and entry level systems it would do great. BTW I hope you review more mainstream and entry level since most of us build our main rigs but buy/recommend pre-built computers for simpler tasks such as home/small office file servers, internet boxes etc..
 
Overall i thought the review was very nice, very informative.

What i want to see is a standard "tech support trouble shooting session". Say maybe open up the device manager and disable the ethernet controller on every single review you do. Call up tech support and start the clock, without asking for managers or anything like that, see if they can lead you to simply enabling the controller or something like that. This is only an example, but it'd be interesting to see what companies could get the problem solved in minutes and who would send out a box telling you to send it in for bench repairs. Might not be possible cause the large oem's may track serial numbers and see its the [H]ard review unit, but it'd be interesting.
 
I like the comparison chart idea, and giving their tech support at least a subjective evaluation.

The little 4x prime torture run was great and I'd like to continue to see similar in all the evals, also a few passes in memtest couldn't hurt.

In my mind at least, the concerns with a prebuild are that the quality and performance of the system won't be up to a well made self-built system. Or rather that if I make it, I can make sure it's well made, where as a prebuild is likely to be built with production costs in mind over quality and performance.

If possible it would be nice to have a list of the components that are in the system, especially as it's not inconcievable that the vendor could change their parts list while keeping the same label.
 
Another "tech support" or warranty issue that I feel is important is local (in your area) "tech support". When I had problems with my Monarch pre-built rig, they would not authourize, BestBuy, CompUSA, CircuitCity, RadioShack, or anyone to work on my rig.

But they will authorize "me" (or any hardware novice) to stick my hands inside of the case because it does not cost them anything. You see they would have to pay RadioShack or BestBuy etc.. :( :mad:

So please verify IF your pre-builder has authorized service centers available in your area or at all for that matter. I was very, very, very pissed to have just spent over $3000 dollars, and with a city and yellow pages full of PC tech professionals I was not "authorized" to utilize them.


Plz do not make my mistakes. Verify the "real world" practices of your pre-builder before you give them your money.

I am not bashing prebuilders only sharing my experience wiith other [H] members. If my experience would have been perfect I would have shared that as well.

My next super rig will be from a pre-builder for sure, but it will be a local or in my area only purchase.

Plz, plz,plz verify before you buy.

davidj



:)
 
TheAcorn said:
Only in an [H] system review does the PSU fail :D

I demand a drop test!
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I agree! A 4 foot drop test because. What if I need to carry it and I drop it ohhh noes 4Gs down the drain(unless it lands on the dog)

Good review, it seemed like you took it a lil easy on them about the vid card and torture test tho.
 
davidj said:
Another "tech support" or warranty issue that I feel is important is local (in your area) "tech support". When I had problems with my Monarch pre-built rig, they would not authourize, BestBuy, CompUSA, CircuitCity, RadioShack, or anyone to work on my rig.

But they will authorize "me" (or any hardware novice) to stick my hands inside of the case because it does not cost them anything. You see they would have to pay RadioShack or BestBuy etc.. :( :mad:

So please verify IF your pre-builder has authorized service centers available in your area or at all for that matter. I was very, very, very pissed to have just spent over $3000 dollars, and with a city and yellow pages full of PC tech professionals I was not "authorized" to utilize them.


Plz do not make my mistakes. Verify the "real world" practices of your pre-builder before you give them your money.

I am not bashing prebuilders only sharing my experience wiith other [H] members. If my experience would have been perfect I would have shared that as well.

My next super rig will be from a pre-builder for sure, but it will be a local or in my area only purchase.

Plz, plz,plz verify before you buy.

davidj
:)
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I can understand your frustration about getting your machine fixed, but believe me, you never, ever, ever, never ever, want ANYONE from Best Buy, CompUSA, etc, to work on your custom gaming rig. That's absolutely the worst thing that could happen. As much as an inconvenience as it is, the only surefire way to get the best tech support is to have the company pay to ship the machine back for repairs. You just can't beat tech support from the company that built it...that's why I like the idea of Falcon's overnight service so much...you may pay a premium, but you get your computer back...fast!

I know there are plenty of [H] members that know their shit that work at Best Buy, CompUSA, etc., and I'm not trying to insult them...it's just that not near enough Best Buy, CompUSA, etc. employees read [H] for me to arbitrarily trust any of those stores I may walk into. ;)
 
i know this is kind of off topic but i think it would be cool if you guys did a [H]ard review of laptops. such things as reall battery life and multimedia performence would be cool.
 
Morley-

I'm glad that you "feel my pain". hehe

I agree with you Sir, I'm sure that you will also agree that having a novice rewire a PSU or replace all of the entire "guts" of the rig before you can get an RMA is just as scary.

I am still astonished that with all of the PC Pros in the YellowPages(not BB), not one tech organization can fix a PC. But the real killer was that a NOVICE will have to literally gut out a PC before you can RMA it. So evan if BB or CompUSA or whomever is a scary thought, having little Billy to rewire a mobo or change out a PSU and everything else is ridiculous. This kind of "tech support" cannot be blamed on BB.

I do not see the logic of a tech @ BB is off limits, but a novice like little Billy can route around inside of the case. :confused: :confused:

My only recomendation is to get the on-site warranty. But make sure that you read the fine print concerning service hours, length of the contract, is the coverage 100% or partial, does it cover software, hardware, both, etc. :)

All of my future super rigs will be custom rigs, I'm just going to do it slightly different the next times.

Again, those of us that are custom rig customers pay $2000, $3000, $4000 and up for our systems. How would you feel if your car broke down and you CANNOT take it to a mechanic? But they will shoot you an email with diagrams and shcematics in .pdf format and YOU fix the car.

Again these super rigs are just that, SUPER, but when something goes wrong(and sooner or later it will) then what?????

Good luck all!

Thnx

Davidj
 
davidj said:
Morley-

I'm glad that you "feel my pain". hehe

I agree with you Sir, I'm sure that you will also agree that having a novice rewire a PSU or replace all of the entire "guts" of the rig before you can get an RMA is just as scary.

I am still astonished that with all of the PC Pros in the YellowPages(not BB), not one tech organization can fix a PC. But the real killer was that a NOVICE will have to literally gut out a PC before you can RMA it. So evan if BB or CompUSA or whomever is a scary thought, having little Billy to rewire a mobo or change out a PSU and everything else is ridiculous. This kind of "tech support" cannot be blamed on BB.

I do not see the logic of a tech @ BB is off limits, but a novice like little Billy can route around inside of the case. :confused: :confused:

My only recomendation is to get the on-site warranty. But make sure that you read the fine print concerning service hours, length of the contract, is the coverage 100% or partial, does it cover software, hardware, both, etc. :)

All of my future super rigs will be custom rigs, I'm just going to do it slightly different the next times.

Again, those of us that are custom rig customers pay $2000, $3000, $4000 and up for our systems. How would you feel if your car broke down and you CANNOT take it to a mechanic? But they will shoot you an email with diagrams and shcematics in .pdf format and YOU fix the car.

Again these super rigs are just that, SUPER, but when something goes wrong(and sooner or later it will) then what?????

Good luck all!

Thnx

Davidj
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I know it seem strange, but those on-site warranties are serviced by 3rd party companies, that may or may not be qualified to service specially configured gaming machines. Your best bet is a company that is willing to expedite a shipment of your pc back to their depot, where you can get your machine serviced by the same people who built it. In the case of Velocity Micro, I told them I was qualified to do the work myself, and they assured me that if I was a regular customer who was not comfortable with doing it myself, they would ship it back and fix it themselves. I have no reason to believe that they lied to me on that. But, they are not the only company that provides that kind of service. Falcon NW and BOXX (who I recently worked for) are two off the top of my head...
 
OK Morley, now you tell me. hehe. I should have purchased from VM or BOXX. The info that you have just provided will save alot of people an expensive lesson. Thnx

I feel that this section of the [H] is very valuble and informative. It is and will be more popular than some have predicted.

I think that most pre-builders are great, I'm not a console guy so they are my heroes. But just like in any industry there are a few that you have to be careful of.

One other thing that is sure as death and taxes is that electronics will eventually fail. WHAT THEN??? :confused: :confused: That is why I feel that the tech support/warranty part of future reviews is vital.

I feel that this part of future reviews should dig a little deeper. The info that the [H] provides is great and FREE. Just giving my honest opinion that the thread starter asked for. :)

Thnx!
 
davidj said:
Again, those of us that are custom rig customers pay $2000, $3000, $4000 and up for our systems. How would you feel if your car broke down and you CANNOT take it to a mechanic? But they will shoot you an email with diagrams and shcematics in .pdf format and YOU fix the car.

Davidj
Click to expand...

Hahaha, very good point I had to add.

-J.
 
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