Steam On Linux Usage Climbs Higher Thanks To The Steam Deck

[UnknownSouljer]

I think you're being a little harsh regarding modern society by believing society is useless and can't learn new things or do anything for themselves. Personally I'll believe that certain generations aren't useless and can actually learn new things and apply learned skills to their everyday lives.

This isn't harsh. It's realistic. People use more cars then computers in the US (obviously not by number, I'm talking about consumers). Do you think they could even describe the four stages of the auto-cycle? Do you think they could describe where the oil port is on the bottom of their car? Heck, most drivers in the US that are under 30 don't know how to or don't want to drive manual transmission. And this isn't even getting into basic maintenance or repair.
If this is simply about people's ability to do something: sure, theoretically everybody can do everything and we live in a world of endless possibilities. In terms of realistically what people want to do? They don't want to learn about repairing their cars and they don't care at all how their OS works. If you feel like you can change all of societies behavior, go for it. But I'll tell you this: my point will ring true. If there are these places of friction, Linux will continue to have near zero levels of adoption. In 20+ years it hasn't changed. If it's a matter of "hey buddy learn this it's so easy" then it would've already happened. It's not cynacism, it's an honest analysis of the way the market is today. And I think you're being at least dishonest if you're not willing to address these friction points while also ignoring that no one is using Linux outside of mega-tech nerds and people that very specifically own the Steam Deck.

The more I go through life the more I recognize that people have their interests and they want to specialize down those paths. And they generally don't care to learn broad knowledge in a number of different subjects. For most people that's their cars and computers. Two items they may use everyday and know NOTHING about.

As stated earlier, every point you're making is essentially exactly what the Steam Deck is all about, and people seem to use it just fine - With the advances made on the Steam Deck filtering down to desktop Linux operating systems.

I think you've missed it entirely. SteamDeck is to Linux as Android is to Linux. It's a device that requires no knowledge of anything under the hood in order to use. And that's precisely why it's successful where no other form of Linux (other than Android) has been successful before. And also speaks to my point that Linux needs to be consolified so that general users can use it. Because the open source method has been nothing but a failure for 20+ years.

An operating system that doesn't stay out of your way is the one constantly nagging you with messages regarding OneDrive and Microsoft accounts, my KDE Neon install just chugs away nicely while I forget I'm running Linux.

Well in the case of the Microsoft nag features, in theory they are there to get users to have a "more complete experience" and be able to have cloud based backups. Apple has done a much better job removing the friction for iCloud.

 

[Lakados]

If this is where we are, agree to disagree. Before Windows the adoption rate of PC's was incredibly low. Even in the present there is a user base that is intentionally forgoing full PC devices and moving towards even easier interfaces that do everything they want to do such as iPads or tablet computers or their phones. There is a decently large portion of the computing base that does all of their computing tasks from their phones. In countries that aren't the USA, those percentage are non-trivial amounts of people. If you're in the third world, the numbers could be flipped to mobile devices only with only a small percentage using a "full computing device".

I personally think you're grossly over-estimating the average person and their relationship to technology precisely because you are so skewed the direction you are. Most people will NEVER change the oil on their cars. Most people will NEVER do the repairs on their own homes. They will NEVER learn command line or use terminal. You might think I'm being ridiculous for being this emphatic, I'm just telling you the average joe treats computing like an appliance and they want it to work in the same vein as a car. They care nothing about the technology under the hood, how to fix it, how it works, everything. It could be a magical box for all they care (and they effectively treat it like it is one). They just want it to do what they want and stay out of their way.

EDIT: As a humorous aside, it might be worth reading IT stories from hell to see just how "dumb" the average person in an office actually is. I don't think this is actually stupidity, it's just ignorance and it has to do with the points I'm making that normal people will never learn these things precisely because they don't care about them. In other words, computing is a part of their job, it's not their hobby.

I work on and with them for a living and honestly if I have to do it in a command line I am incredibly annoyed, with the exception of my servers as they have no GUI and are exclusively accessed for admin management tasks through putty.
But even those machines have a web interface for day-to-day operations.
Unless its something very specific I am doing and for a very specific reason there should be no reason for me to touch a CLI at this point, and anybody requiring it for the average joe fails to remember that most struggle with figuring out what input their TV is supposed to be on for their Playstation.

 

[Mazzspeed]

This isn't harsh. It's realistic. People use more cars then computers in the US (obviously not by number, I'm talking about consumers). Do you think they could even describe the four stages of the auto-cycle? Do you think they could describe where the oil port is on the bottom of their car? Heck, most drivers in the US that are under 30 don't know how to or don't want to drive manual transmission. And this isn't even getting into basic maintenance or repair.
If this is simply about people's ability to do something: sure, theoretically everybody can do everything and we live in a world of endless possibilities. In terms of realistically what people want to do? They don't want to learn about repairing their cars and they don't care at all how their OS works. If you feel like you can change all of societies behavior, go for it. But I'll tell you this: my point will ring true. If there are these places of friction, Linux will continue to have near zero levels of adoption. In 20+ years it hasn't changed. If it's a matter of "hey buddy learn this it's so easy" then it would've already happened. It's not cynacism, it's an honest analysis of the way the market is today. And I think you're being at least dishonest if you're not willing to address these friction points while also ignoring that no one is using Linux outside of mega-tech nerds and people that very specifically own the Steam Deck.

OK, so the Steam Deck is literally aimed at Millennials, but according to yourself Millennials are largely useless, even though the Steam Deck is a broadly consumer oriented device and the generation you're claiming are useless seem to use it just fine.

For the record, SteamOS 3.0 is actually based on Arch with KDE as it's DE, so it has a normal Linux desktop. Under the Steam client used on the device it's essentially an Arch distro and functions in a very similar fashion to an Arch based desktop PC. Which is vastly different to Android.

Nothing I have claimed is in any way dishonest, the reality is that the vast majority of Millennials are not useless and are capable of learning. However if you're after honesty, I believe you're generationism is somewhat insulting to Millennials. I'm noping out of discussion with yourself now as your perspective is somewhat generalized and I'm not interested in unjustified blanket statements.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

OK, so the Steam Deck is literally aimed at Millennials, but according to yourself Millennials are largely useless

First off, I am a millennial. Secondly I've named zero generations in any post. You're making statements that I have not.
Third I think you've either intentionally or unintentionally misinterpreted what I've said.

Previous posts I have stated: same amount of tech nerds every generations. But now there are more PC generalists. Similarly not everyone who drives a car is an engineer. They are effectively car generalists. They aren't "professional drivers."

even though the Steam Deck is a broadly consumer oriented device and the generation you're claiming are useless seem to use it just fine.

If you can't see the difference between the way a Steam Deck performs in which literally ALL functions require no knowledge of Linux WHAT SO EVER vs what a desktop install requires, I can't help you. But suffice to say that if you also can't see the difference between Linux and the way Android runs either I also can't help you. We're then no longer even talking about the same things if you see no difference functionally between the different things we're talking about.

We may as well say that macOS is BSD, which it is, but functionally it operates very differently. If you can't tell the difference then we should just start and end there.

Nothing I have claimed is in any way dishonest, the reality is that the vast majority of Millennials are not useless and are capable of learning. However if you're after honesty, I believe you're generationism is somewhat insulting to Millennials. Noping out of discussion with yourself now as your perspective is somewhat generalized and I'm not interested in unjustified blanket statements.

Which I haven't done. Then please explain to me why in 20+ years has there been no Linux adoption greater than half a percent of the consumer market? If you feel like it isn't "difficulty of the product" then what excuse does Linux have? It's not price, it's free. It's not lack of software, again, all of it is free. According to you it's not UI or interface. According to you it isn't ease of use.

Literally you're not helping your own case here at all. It very obviously has barriers to entry, I've only enumerated what they are and I've used what I would call very useful similes to state my positions.

Do you think that what I've said about people's relationships to cars is inaccurate?
Why do you think what I've said about users relationships to cars is inaccurate? Heck even Lakados pointed out that people have difficulty selecting the correct HDMI input on their TV from Cable vs their Playstation, but somehow using terminal isn't a friction point? Can you not see that I'm not talking at all about generations but literally just human behavior? If that isn't a reasonable explanation for you: please feel free to englighten all of us why Steam Deck has been successful while all of Linux has not been successful and also why Linux has had no other growth in 20+ years. Because if you don't, again, you're literally ignoring the numbers with no reasoning why. It's just magically that way because it's that way.

 

[Mazzspeed]

We may as well say that macOS is BSD, which it is, but functionally it operates very differently. If you can't tell the difference then we should just start and end there.

MacOS conforms to a set of standards as outlined by The Open Group that allows for Unix certification, and that's all Unix is now - A group of standards regulated and certified by The Open Group for an ongoing licensing fee, the kernel used is not even a consideration. Unix is no longer 'an OS'.

You could get Windows to conform to the standards set by The Open Group and it could be classed as Unix certified. Once again, SteamOS 3.0 is just Arch with a KDE DE; and to reinforce a point, there's plenty of Millennials achieving outstanding things using Raspberry Pi devices running Linux.

I guess I should be glad I'm not a Millennial.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

MacOS conforms to a set of standards as outlined by The Open Group that allows for Unix certification, and that's all Unix is now - A group of standards regulated and certified by The Open Group for an ongoing licensing fee, the kernel used is not even a consideration. Unix is no longer 'an OS'.

You could get Windows to conform to the standards set by The Open Group and it could be classed as Unix certified. Once again, SteamOS 3.0 is just Arch with a KDE DE.

No disagreement. Other than noting that very specifically the Steam Deck doesn't require a keyboard, terminal commands, driver installation, complex installs in general, or anything else in order to use and operate.

Whereas SteamOS if installed on a regular computer requires all of those things and more: https://store.steampowered.com/steamos/buildyourown

If you can't tell the difference between which is harder to do (buy a SteamDeck vs use SteamOS literally on any device that isn't a SteamDeck) I can't help you there.
On a Steam Deck you just select games with a thumbstick, buy them with the touch screen, install them with a single button press, and launch them with a single button press. That functionality is not like using Linux on literally any other device (other than maybe Android).
It's not even designed to run the plethora of software that Linux offers (what with a keyboard nor mouse being a central part of its design). It's designed to do one thing: game. It's not a regular Linux PC by any metric.

Glad I'm not a Millennial.

Ah, so it is in fact you who wants to paint generations with broad strokes and not me. 🤷‍♂️ I guess what they say is true, just blame other people for what you're doing and how you feel inside.

 

[Mazzspeed]

No disagreement. Other than noting that very specifically the Steam Deck doesn't require a keyboard, terminal commands, driver installation, complex installs in general, or anything else in order to use and operate.

Whereas SteamOS if installed on a regular computer requires all of those things and more: https://store.steampowered.com/steamos/buildyourown

If you can't tell the difference between which is harder to do (buy a SteamDeck vs use SteamOS literally on any device that isn't a SteamDeck) I can't help you there.

Ah, so it is in fact you who wants to paint generation with broad strokes and not me. 🤷‍♂️ I guess what they say is true, just blame other people for what you're doing and how you feel inside.

To clarify, the 'Steam client' doesn't require terminal comands. The underlying Arch based distro with KDE DE definitely requires a keyboard (virtual is fine) and drivers, no different to any other Arch based distro.

Due to the fact that the device is literally an Arch distro with a KDE DE, it's complexity is the same as any desktop PC once you close the Steam client that's set to auto run on boot. You can open terminal and install Wine, you can install Glorious Eggroll Proton builds, you can even install Lutris and install games and launchers independent to the Steam client on the device.

If I get my Desktop and set Steam to launch in big picture mode on boot, it's literally a big Steam Deck.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

To clarify, the 'Steam client' doesn't require terminal comands. The underlying Arch based distro with KDE DE definitely requires a keyboard (virtual is fine) and drivers, no different to any other Arch based distro.

Due to the fact that the device is literally an Arch distro with a KDE DE, it's complexity is the same as any desktop PC once you close the Steam client that's set to auto run on boot. You can open terminal and install Wine, you can install Glorious Eggroll Proton builds, you can even install Lutris and install games and launchers independent to the Steam client on the device.

Again, we agree. But it's precisely all of those things layered on top that make the Steam Deck desirable. If those things weren't there then the device wouldn't have sold the way it has.

It isn't the fact that the device even runs Linux that has made the SteamDeck successful. Frankly if it ran Windows most people wouldn't care. If the Steam Client on top functionally worked the same, the average consumers buying this device wouldn't care one iota what the OS is underneath.

The reason we're even having this conversation and the reason why the Steam Deck is relevant is only because of Valve's very specific desire to break away from the Windows system that they can't control the fate of. And Microsoft doing some very poor decisions that is affecting all companies that are doing gaming in the PC space. If that impetus wasn't there there wouldn't be a Steam Deck in the way that there is one now. Certainly why spend dev time/money on an OS if you're already happy with currently available OS options? The answer is: you wouldn't.

And certainly if Arch Linux was ready to go on this device and every game was ready to be played on Linux then again Valve wouldn't need to spend all of this dev time to give the experience the Steam Deck has. They'd simply install Arch, DO NOTHING, and then say: have at it. But that experience would have been ABSOLUTE TRASH. It's this fact that annoys me about our entire conversation. Because you can't know the fact that the Steam Deck had a huge amount of time placed into the way Steam Deck works both in terms of OS development, drivers, and software layers on top, and then also ignore that without all of that dev time the experience wouldn't be what it is. It wouldn't be remotely close. So either this experience matters or it doesn't. Valve put their money where their mouth is and said: Hey, people don't know how to use Linux or console commands or how to install all of these user packages, or the Linux interface, lets do everything for them. But you don't see that and you're glossing over all the obvious work that had to be done in order to make Linux palatable on a mass market device.

So again, there isn't much to say because you don't see any of the work Valve did and functionally see no difference between a SteamDeck and what people have to do to get Linux running on a PC. We may as well start and stop the conversation there because I'm talking about all the friction points and you are very intentionally ignoring all the friction points, while also not addressing the fact that only the Steam Deck has made a meaningful uptick in the Linux consumer market where no other device or flavor of Linux has.

 

[Mazzspeed]

Again, we agree. But it's precisely all of those things layered on top that make the Steam Deck desirable. If those things weren't there then the device wouldn't have sold the way it has.

Except it's not 'all of those things'; it's essentially just Steam, configured to be more usable on a mobile device, set to auto launch on boot running in big picture mode. The Steam Deck is just a handheld PC with an inbuilt controller and screen running Arch with the KDE DE, Valve literally just installed Arch as their base OS of choice. As stated, my desktop PC running Steam in big picture mode could be called a desktop Steam Deck. The development is all focused around Proton, and that filters down to desktop devices running Steam and Linux. If you want to install Wine, you do so using the terminal no different to a desktop Linux install.

And yet, a certain generation that you believe to be stupid and lazy, seem to be able to handle that device loaded with Arch Linux as the OS just fine. They also seem to be capable of achieving outstanding results on Raspberry Pi devices running Linux just fine.

Ah, so it is in fact you who wants to paint generations with broad strokes and not me.

Let's not mince context. I'm claiming that I wouldn't want you generalizing about myself using blanket statements based on nothing but hearsay due solely on the generation I was born into.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

Except it's not 'all of those things'; it's essentially just Steam, configured to be more usable on a mobile device, set to auto launch on boot running in big picture mode. The Steam Deck is just a handheld PC with an inbuilt controller and screen running Arch with the KDE DE, Valve literally just installed Arch as their base OS of choice. As stated, my desktop PC running Steam in big picture mode could be called a desktop Steam Deck. The development is all focused around Proton, and that filters down to desktop devices running Steam and Linux. If you want to install Wine, you do so using the terminal no different to a desktop Linux install.

And yet, a certain generation that you believe to be stupid and lazy, seem to be able to handle that device loaded with Arch Linux as the OS just fine.

In other words people can use arch Linux fine when they don’t have to install arch Linux themselves, install drivers themselves, see arch Linux, interface with it, use terminal, or use any apps that steam doesn’t launch. Got it.

They also seem to be capable of achieving outstanding results on Raspberry Pi devices running Linux just fine.

This is a proverbial forehead slap moment. Show me the office user or generalist that is using this device. We can even skip how few people use it for a moment (which is hilariously small in comparison with the marketplace).

You are talking about a niche of a niche of a niche at this point and then saying: see! “Everyone” can do this!

Let's not mince context. I'm claiming that I wouldn't want you generalizing about myself using blanket statements based on nothing but hearsay due solely on the generation I was born into.

Okay? And I’ve done none of that in any post.


Look Mazzspeed, there is basically no point in us discussing anything further. The crux of this conversation is that I say Linux is hard to use, you say it's easy. I have discussed at length why it's hard. But in order for your position on "Linux so easy" to be true: WHY ARE PEOPLE NOT MOVING TO LINUX IN DROVES? Until you answer that elephant in the room, literally nothing you say carries weight, because you're at minimum not addressing why no one is using the system. You continually say that I'm "insulting people's intelligence" by calling Linux hard. (Even when I've stated that it has nothing to do with intelligence it has to do with interest, but never mind all your characterizations of my statements for a moment).

Count every SteamDeck and PiMax you want: Linux accounts for a half a percent at best. It's is a niche of a niche of a niche. There is NO GETTING AROUND THAT FACT. So why then do people categorically avoid this perfect blessing of an OS that anyone can use without a second thought? (especially as we all consider Windows especially Windows 11 to be straight trash as a given).

 

[DPI]

just blame other people for what you're doing and how you feel inside.

This is the only way I get through the day, tbh.

 

[Mazzspeed]

In other words people can use arch Linux fine when they don’t have to install arch Linux themselves, install drivers themselves, see arch Linux, interface with it, use terminal, or use any apps that steam doesn’t launch. Got it.

The drivers are part of the kernel and included as part of normal Arch updates (hence Valve using a rolling release distro regarding an AMD GPU), and as stated if you want to move beyond Steam as a front end application (not an OS), you will likely need to use terminal to install software via the AUR. This includes software such as Wine and Lutris to support games and launchers not available under Steam. Talk about head slap moment.

This is a proverbial forehead slap moment. Show me the office user or generalist that is using this device. We can even skip how few people use it for a moment (which is hilariously small in comparison with the marketplace

A strawman argument if I ever saw one. Let's bring office workers into a discussion about the Steam Deck.

Look Mazzspeed, there is basically no point in us discussing anything further. The crux of this conversation is that I say Linux is hard to use, you say it's easy.

No, you specifically singled out an entire generation and claimed they were lazy and ignorant, unable to learn new things; I stated the opposite and stated that Linux is simply a learning curve and the generation in question are not lazy, ignorant and unable to learn new things. If we use Windows as an example, it's not a benchmark by which all other operating systems should be judged, it's simply the most popular OS due to clever marketing based around the fact that it's already on the device when you buy it. I have nothing against Windows beyond the fact that I simply prefer Linux, but Linux is Linux - An OS within itself, use whatever suits your usage case. The fact is that as an operating system, Linux is now the second most supported OS considering gaming regarding advancements in Wine, DXVK, DX9VK and native Vulkan as well as OGL - Not to mention Nvidia support.

You won't topple Windows regarding gaming, it's been the supported OS since the advent of gaming under GUI based operating systems. But Linux is now, essentially, Win32 compatible, and the advancements made on the Steam Deck in this regard are filtering down to desktop Linux.

As stated in my earlier post, I upgraded my Origin runner under Lutris, which was by no means hard, and I'm getting 90 - 100 fps under BF4 running an Nvidia 980Ti at 4k! That smashes what I was achieving before and is undoubtably due to advances motivated by the advent of the Steam Deck.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

The drivers are part of the kernel and included as part of normal Arch updates (hence Valve using a rolling release distro regarding an AMD GPU), and as stated if you want to move beyond Steam as a front end application (not an OS), you will likely need to use terminal to install software via the AUR. This includes software such as Wine and Lutris to support games and launchers not available under Steam. Talk about head slap moment.

And you will find no one other than people that were already Linux users doing any of that.

A strawman argument if I ever saw one. Let's bring office workers into a discussion about the Steam Deck.

This was directly about the Pi, which is what you brought up btw. The Pi is obvioulsy for hobby projects only. No one other than a hardcore Linux fan is using it. But you are the one that called it "easy".
But let's skip that, let's talk about all Linux users or more accurately the lack thereof.

No, you specifically singled out an entire generation and claimed they were lazy and ignorant, unable to learn new things; I stated the opposite and stated that Linux is simply a learning curve and the generation in question are not lazy, ignorant and unable to learn new things.

STOP THERE, QUOTE ME AND SHOW ME WHERE I STATED THIS. ANY OF IT. WHERE DID I SAY ANYONE WAS LAZY OR THAT THIS WAS GENERATIONALY RELATED.
Ignorant perhaps, but ignorant merely means "lack of knowledge'. It isn't an insult. And that is actually true 98% of people at least are ignorant of Linux commands. That is not in dispute, if you think it is show me your stats. But we know the stats, we already know that Linux is less than 1% of users. It would be hard for there to be non-users of Linux to NOT be ignorant about using Linux.
You've slandered me more than once. Facts not in evidence.

Everything else you've said past this point is irrelevant then. You've at least finally admitted that people aren't willing to change their "habits" regardless of the reasons why. Which is basically what I've been saying all along. The difference being I'm actually addressing the "why" and you're simply "shrugging your shoulders". If something is better it's better.
People are migrating from Windows to macOS now. The numbers reflect this. We agree that people are "willing to learn things if something is better for what they do". And move to more people to macOS shows this. Somehow other than buying the equivalent of a Mac device in the form of Linux (Steam Deck), no one is moving to Linux.

 

[Mazzspeed]

And you will find no one other than people that were already Linux users doing any of that

And yet, before, you were claiming that the latest version of SteamOS was specifically designed to hide Linux as an operating system to the end user. Now you admit that the latest version of SteamOS is no more than Arch, using the KDE DE, with a version of Steam designed to work better with a mobile device included as an application that auto launches on boot. Your argument is all over the place, including your claims regarding MacOS (which uses terminal commands essentially identical to Linux).

So, circling back to the intention of the Steam Deck, I find it exciting that we have more in the way of options when it comes to gaming operating systems. The future is looking less restrictive, and that's a good thing. I'm thankful for the advances the Steam Deck is bringing to Linux desktop gaming as a whole considering Wine, DXVK, DX9XK and native Vulkan.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

And yet, before, you were claiming that the latest version of SteamOS was specifically designed to hide Linux as an operating system to the end user. Now you admit that the latest version of SteamOS is no more than Arch, using the KDE DE, with a version of Steam designed to work better with a mobile device included as an application that auto launches on boot.

First, I never said that the SteamDeck has run anything other than Linux in terms of what it's doing behind the scenes with its OS (go ahead and look back and quote me, facts not in evidence). If I didn't then a discussion about Linux wouldn't have even been a talking point. (What was the title of this thread again?)

The claim is very simple. Normal users will not learn all of the complicated Linux stuff which I've repeated over and over. That has always been my same statements. The fact that you're getting confused has nothing to do with my actual position. The only statements you've made to the contrary is an offhanded remark about your wife, some nonsense about the Rasberry Pi, and unrelated remarks to how open SteamDeck is and how "not special" anything it does is despite the huge investment of dollars into development in to the software side from Valve. That thing you call a skin that "auto launches on boot" makes the SteamDeck. Without it, no one would buy the system who wasn't already a Linux user.

The only reason why this thread exists and that there is even an uptick in Linux use is precisely because Valve consolified Linux so that anyone could use it. A very basic claim that so far you've said nothing to the contrary. And the proof of that is that it is precisely the SteamDeck that has increased Linux usage. Desktop Linux usage has not increased one iota, so if the SteamDeck was opening the door so that everyone was using terminal, installing repos, and found Linux now easy to use there would be a commensurate increase in desktop usage. There is not. If there was, you'd be able to point that out, but can't.

Your argument is all over the place, including your claims regarding MacOS (which uses terminal commands essentially identical to Linux).

And no generalist Mac user uses Terminal. Terminal is required to do nothing inside of macOS that a normal user would do. Terminal doesn't exist so that people can install drivers, access repos, install programs or updates, or do literally anything else necessary for an ordinary use to run the system. This is entirely unlike Linux. But yes, if you can get Linux to the point of it being EXACTLY like macOS so that no one ever has to do management ever again, then yeah Linux = macOS. Have you never used macOS?
In fact this comparison between what Valve has done with the SteamDeck and macOS in that sense is VERY apt, because on both Mac devices and on the Deck, no one uses terminal.

You have this problem where you do not recognize or categorically refuse to recognize the difference between a .01% user and 99% of users.
The fact that any of this has to be spelled out is perplexing. You refuse to look at friction points while simultaneously refusing to express any "possible reason" why people are not using Linux. Why not point out that Windows has a terminal too? Show me all the office workers that don't know how Wi-Fi works but also use terminal.

So, circling back to the intention of the Steam Deck, I find it exciting that we have more in the way of options when it comes to gaming operating systems. The future is looking less restrictive, and that's a good thing. I'm thankful for the advances the Steam Deck is bringing to Linux desktop gaming as a whole considering Wine, DXVK, DX9XK and native Vulkan.

Yes, the consolification of Linux so that normal people will use it is exciting.

 

[FSCDiablo]

Mazz, you have way more patience than I for this line of chat anymore. Linux for the average user is not as hard as some think. Most of the time they end up going off on tangents or driving into low use cases like Hollywood pro non linear editors that aren't built for Linux and say "HAH see Linux isn't ready for prime time!"

The truth is Linux installers have been simple for some time now and often no more than pick a drive, select a desktop flavor and it installs enough software that more "novice users" can jump in and write a letter, spreadsheet, browse, edit a picture, etc you know the things that an "average PC user" would do. Keeping the machine updated is a breeze as most distros give up a pop up button to update all software and reboot if needed and offer a software store full of thousands of free software packages to do most things average people do.

I installed Fedora on what was new hardware for the time and everything installed out of the box. I can't remember anything so far that required the command line to get up and running. GUI software manager pops up once in awhile and asks me to update including updating distro versions and nothing has failed so far.

Here I sit surfing, re-encoding videos on Handbreak in the background, and saw on another thread here that GOG is giving away a game called Ghost of a Tale, so I added it to my account, a few mins later it popped up on my Heroic Games Launcher, pressed install button to load it, and bingo I'm playing it 10 mins later with 0 configuration settings to make. It just works. I do this time after time and it just works no matter how much some people here tell me it doesn't. I must be doing it wrong?

 

[UnknownSouljer]

Mazz, you have way more patience than I for this line of chat anymore. Linux for the average user is not as hard as some think. Most of the time they end up going off on tangents or driving into low use cases like Hollywood pro non linear editors that aren't built for Linux and say "HAH see Linux isn't ready for prime time!"

Video editing and audio editing I wouldn't call edge use cases anymore. To put it another way, I would say more people are editing video than using Linux.

The truth is Linux installers have been simple for some time now and often no more than pick a drive, select a desktop flavor and it installs enough software that more "novice users" can jump in and write a letter, spreadsheet, browse, edit a picture, etc you know the things that an "average PC user" would do. Keeping the machine updated is a breeze as most distros give up a pop up button to update all software and reboot if needed and offer a software store full of thousands of free software packages to do most things average people do.

I installed Fedora on what was new hardware for the time and everything installed out of the box. I can't remember anything so far that required the command line to get up and running. GUI software manager pops up once in awhile and asks me to update including updating distro versions and nothing has failed so far.

Here I sit surfing, re-encoding videos on Handbreak in the background, and saw on another thread here that GOG is giving away a game called Ghost of a Tale, so I added it to my account, a few mins later it popped up on my Heroic Games Launcher, pressed install button to load it, and bingo I'm playing it 10 mins later with 0 configuration settings to make. It just works. I do this time after time and it just works no matter how much some people here tell me it doesn't. I must be doing it wrong?

View attachment 533938View attachment 533939

Okay, your supposition is that I don't know what I'm talking about, and the people in this thread (not including me) that have stated their own problems with Linux are crazy. Even DNX's position is that Linux is far from perfect and he's one of the most staunch Linux users I've ever seen on this forum.

I would say again: if Linux is magic fairydust rainbows, it costs nothing to use (which there is no Linux user that would ever let us forget about), then why hasn't everyone moved over? The cost savings for corporate would be in the order of 10s of millions if not 100s of millions per year. Especially because Linux is arguably easier to deploy than Windows, what with all the server tools available. You've now yourself stated that any use case Linux can't do is "a tangent(s)" or "low use cases". It's not hard to use, learn, or maintain. You guys are the geniuses, we're the morons: here's your turn at the wheel: why?

 

[Axman]

I would say again: if Linux is magic fairydust rainbows, it costs nothing to use (which there is no Linux user that would ever let us forget about), then why hasn't everyone moved over? The cost savings for corporate would be in the order of 10s of millions if not 100s of millions per year. Especially because Linux is arguably easier to deploy than Windows, what with all the server tools available. You've now yourself stated that any use case Linux can't do is "a tangent(s)" or "low use cases". It's not hard to use, learn, or maintain. You guys are the geniuses, we're the morons: here's your turn at the wheel: why?

It's just as easy/hard to use as Windows or OSX, it's just that the desktop experience is years behind in terms of development and polish.

You don't need to use the command line in Linux any more than in Windows or OSX, but the command line is faster for people with the know more often because the desktop experience is dated.

The people dumping money into Linux don't give two shits about customers or desktop experience -- that is, until Valve showed up. Now someone cares. And that's good.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

It's just as easy/hard to use as Windows or OSX, it's just that the desktop experience is years behind in terms of development and polish.

You don't need to use the command line in Linux any more than in Windows or OSX, but the command line is faster for people with the know more often because the desktop experience is dated.

Look, I'll take my share of the blame that I've gone on more than one rant and certainly more than one tangent in this thread (and in general).

But you're not arguing the same position as FSCDiablo is. Because his statement is emphatically that it takes no special knowledge or skills to install or maintain. It doesn't require terminal at all. And is capable at doing all "normal" desktop tasks.

You at least are agreeing with me partially if you're making the statement that it "lacks polish" on the front end as at least SOME reason why people haven't moved over. That is definitely an opposing view (at least to some degree) vs everything is perfect and runs perfect on Linux.

The people dumping money into Linux don't give two shits about customers or desktop experience -- that is, until Valve showed up. Now someone cares. And that's good.

No disagreement here. I've said repeatedly in terms of my position that Linux needs consolification or otherwise full streamlining so that all aspects of the experience are good. Including not having difficult installation, not needing terminal, not having to figure out repos, having complicated driver installs, etc.
It's for these reasons why I've said that the Steam Deck succeeds and is increasing "Linux usage" whereas no desktop variant has, precisely because of the integrated software and hardware and dead simple interface.

Then to rehash the thread, all of the Linux mega fans popped out and said: "well actually everything is super easy on Linux", and my response has been "No it isn't, here's why", describing all of the friction points. And when that has been argued into the ground (I would say inadequately but that's immaterial for this point) I have said: "okay fine, lets take your position as granted: if Linux has no problems why aren't people using it?" and I'm still waiting on a remotely reasonable response to that very basic question especially when bringing up that businesses are about making money and saving money and Linux being "perfectly easy to use" and "ready for primetime" would mean a massive cost savings. This is even ignoring the difference in gaming performance between having to use an emulation layer like Proton/Wine to run games vs native on Windows. I'm giving gaming a big pass even though that's also a mixed bag. This is a very softball pitch of just "boring basic business applications" where there can be no objection about "complexity of running an equivalent application." So very simply: why aren't people running Linux?

My answer is: Linux only gains ground if and only if it's at least as easy to use as Windows and macOS. I don't mean it has to "do things the same way", but it has to be as simple to use in whatever methods they do it in terms of GUI. Akin to Windows vs macOS or iOS vs Android for obvious examples of two OS's that are competing that do things in different ways but are roughly equivalent in ease of use. We could nitpick about one being more ergonomic than the other, but that's another tangent missing the point. Okay, I'm wrong? Fine, then give a more adequate reason. It took Valve and the SteamDeck for Linux to get an uptick in usage. I feel like my assessment is pretty reasonable. It's not? Then better and more adequately explain why not. Because I don't see an uptick anywhere else in terms of Linux usage.

 

[Lakados]

Linux has it's use cases, and for gaming, it is getting better this is mostly propelled by Valve and a small group of dedicated users, it's not seamless but it is way the hell better than it was even 2 years ago. By no means is it prime time, but for those who are passionate enough about it then it is certainly in a state where it is doable, the issue is it takes time and the drive to make it work and for many, that drive isn't there. Projects like the Steam Deck certainly propel the cause and do a great job of advertising what can be accomplished with the right resources poured into a project, more importantly, it shows what areas need work and there is a lot of work to be done. Funny enough DX12 may be what allows for a better transition off of windows, low level languages are much easier to translate than higher-level ones because most commands will have a direct one-to-one mapping, the problem is putting the actual work.

 

[Mazzspeed]

It's just as easy/hard to use as Windows or OSX, it's just that the desktop experience is years behind in terms of development and polish.

I'd have to say, I find KDE Neon a far better desktop experience than Windows and just as polished. At least I have a true desktop interface under KDE, as opposed to the interface under Windows 10/11 that's trying to cater to desktop as well as touch devices making poor use of screen real estate.

Not hating on Windows, but the idea that the Linux DE isn't polished really doesn't hold to scrutiny anymore. The fact that the Steam Deck runs the KDE DE should push further development of the UI with the backing of Valve - However I can't comment on the current state of Gnome, I dumped that DE when the devs insisted on locking everything down to their way of doing things.

Mazz, you have way more patience than I for this line of chat anymore. Linux for the average user is not as hard as some think. Most of the time they end up going off on tangents or driving into low use cases like Hollywood pro non linear editors that aren't built for Linux and say "HAH see Linux isn't ready for prime time!"

The thing is: I don't want to argue, I just want to be able to discuss the merits of my OS of choice in a thread that's by and large based around a new Linux gaming device.

Here I sit surfing, re-encoding videos on Handbreak in the background, and saw on another thread here that GOG is giving away a game called Ghost of a Tale, so I added it to my account, a few mins later it popped up on my Heroic Games Launcher, pressed install button to load it, and bingo I'm playing it 10 mins later with 0 configuration settings to make. It just works. I do this time after time and it just works no matter how much some people here tell me it doesn't. I must be doing it wrong?

Ohh, I might have to download this game.

 

[DukenukemX]

It's just as easy/hard to use as Windows or OSX, it's just that the desktop experience is years behind in terms of development and polish.

You don't need to use the command line in Linux any more than in Windows or OSX, but the command line is faster for people with the know more often because the desktop experience is dated.

The people dumping money into Linux don't give two shits about customers or desktop experience -- that is, until Valve showed up. Now someone cares. And that's good.

Linux is easy if you stay within limitations. Probably easier than Windows. The problem is when you step outside those limitations is when things get serious. Play games through Steam and you'll have a great time. Trying to get games working on Epic and you'll have a bad time. Nearly all web browsers exist on Linux, including Edge. Plenty of video editing software to go around, including DaVinci Resolve. Unfortunately photo editing software is there but for me nothing can replace Photoshop. Also Fusion 360 is not ported to Linux. If you're like me where you use a Ch341a to flash bios chips on your motherboard, because flashrom on linux doesn't work. I also use PCM Hammer to flash my cars ECM to tune them, and that doesn't work on Linux either. Got a BMW that you need to use INPA to diagnose it? Yea, that only works on Windows I'm afraid.

I don't see a polish issue on Linux but then again I use Linux Mint and they do a lot of polish. At this point UI issues are either a lack of shortcut keys or good artwork. Apple seems to have taken the approach of using solid colored shapes for making their UI and we call that modern? Cinnamon for example has so many themes to choose from that I'm sure anyone could find a theme that could appeal to them. Unlike Windows and Mac OSX where one size fits all.

To say that LInux is just as easy or hard as Windows or OSX would take a page from the Apple users guidelines that, if it works for my needs therefore it must be perfect. Honestly Canonical has been screwing up a lot lately as every new Ubuntu LTS seems to have problems for me. Problems that are usually resolved by the next release usually. I can't use Pronterface on Linux Mint 21, which is based on Ubuntu 22.04 because Canonical screwed it up on their repository. I can't use my 3D printer unless I go back to Mint 20, or switch over to Debian edition of Linux Mint. Obviously not all people do what I do with my PC, but I think some people might get upset trying to run Fortnite on Linux and finding out they can't.

 

[Mazzspeed]

Trying to get games working on Epic and you'll have a bad time.

I only have one game under the Epic Store, 'Detroit Become Human', that's all Tim Sweeney's getting out of me - I only got it on the Epic Store as it was limited to the platform on release. However I must say that one game was really easy to install under Lutris. I simply did a Google search for 'Epic Store Lutris', downloaded the script, the script automatically opens under Lutris downloading the Epic Store and configures everything perfectly to run the application. Once that's done I open the Epic Store, go to my games, download Detroit Become Human and we're good to go.

Furthermore, in game performance is outstanding considering my ageing PC.

No idea what the rest of the store is like, I'm sure any game having over the top DRM and not supporting Linux EAC probably has issues - Which is the only reason Linux can't run Fortnite.

I also use PCM Hammer to flash my cars ECM to tune them, and that doesn't work on Linux either. Got a BMW that you need to use INPA to diagnose it? Yea, that only works on Windows I'm afraid.

This is literally the only reason I have a Windows laptop, it's solely used to run diagnosis software for the car and to run the COBB software to upload tunes to my Accesport and download log files from my Accessport.

I can't use Pronterface on Linux Mint 21, which is based on Ubuntu 22.04 because Canonical screwed it up on their repository. I can't use my 3D printer unless I go back to Mint 20, or switch over to Debian edition of Linux Mint. Obviously not all people do what I do with my PC, but I think some people might get upset trying to run Fortnite on Linux and finding out they can't.

Honestly, Mint was the only distro I ever ran that gave me no end of trouble. Having said that, I totally agree that Canonical have been making a mess of things lately.

 

[ManofGod]

Mazz, you have way more patience than I for this line of chat anymore. Linux for the average user is not as hard as some think. Most of the time they end up going off on tangents or driving into low use cases like Hollywood pro non linear editors that aren't built for Linux and say "HAH see Linux isn't ready for prime time!"

The truth is Linux installers have been simple for some time now and often no more than pick a drive, select a desktop flavor and it installs enough software that more "novice users" can jump in and write a letter, spreadsheet, browse, edit a picture, etc you know the things that an "average PC user" would do. Keeping the machine updated is a breeze as most distros give up a pop up button to update all software and reboot if needed and offer a software store full of thousands of free software packages to do most things average people do.

I installed Fedora on what was new hardware for the time and everything installed out of the box. I can't remember anything so far that required the command line to get up and running. GUI software manager pops up once in awhile and asks me to update including updating distro versions and nothing has failed so far.

Here I sit surfing, re-encoding videos on Handbreak in the background, and saw on another thread here that GOG is giving away a game called Ghost of a Tale, so I added it to my account, a few mins later it popped up on my Heroic Games Launcher, pressed install button to load it, and bingo I'm playing it 10 mins later with 0 configuration settings to make. It just works. I do this time after time and it just works no matter how much some people here tell me it doesn't. I must be doing it wrong?

View attachment 533938View attachment 533939

It is a shame this is not an across the board result of using Linux. Whether GOG or Epic games, they all install but not a one runs, it just starts, CTD's and that is all. Latest Ubuntu 22.10, Latest Mesa and an RX6800XT.

 

[Mazzspeed]

It is a shame this is not an across the board result of using Linux. Whether GOG or Epic games, they all install but not a one runs, it just starts, CTD's and that is all. Latest Ubuntu 22.10, Latest Mesa and an RX6800XT.

Are you using Lutris?

 

[ManofGod]

Are you using Lutris?

I was actually referring to the latest Heroic Launcher. However, even with the latest Lutris, a lot of GOG games have graphical issues, or at least the 30 some odd games I have do.

 

[Mazzspeed]

I was actually referring to the latest Heroic Launcher. However, even with the latest Lutris, a lot of GOG games have graphical issues, or at least the 30 some odd games I have do.

I don't usually use GOG, perhaps try it under Lutris? Lutris installs the right versions of Wine and all dependencies needed to run GOG Galaxy, which may help.

 

[Mazzspeed]

GOG Galaxy installs fine under Lutris:

 

[Bankie]

I've messed with Linux since the days you could go to the book store and buy a clearance Slackware book for $6 with a CD and have tried many distros over the years; the last one being Arch maybe 4 years ago. I'd always have fun with the adventure for a few weeks and then be back in Windows because some game that should work fine would have some random issue (last one I remember is the cursor not working in League of Legend and being forced to try 20 different Lutris scripts or WINE branches).

What are the "good" distros nowadays if one wants to game? I'm not afraid of the terminal but would prefer not to spend ALL of my time troubleshooting sound issues and such like the olden days.

 

[Axman]

What are the "good" distros nowadays if one wants to game? I'm not afraid of the terminal but would prefer not to spend ALL of my time troubleshooting sound issues and such like the olden days.

Mint? Been the go-to for easy entry/re-entry for years. They have a Debian build (Steam OS is Debian).

 

[Mazzspeed]

KDE Neon FTW just because it's what I use. Although you do need to rollback libpoppler-glib8 with the latest update, which is simple, I can post a link if it helps.

Steam are now basing their SteamOS on Arch with the KDE DE, so any similar Arch based distro would work fine. As can be seen FSCDiablo uses Fedora, so I assume a similar build would be adequate.

 

[Axman]

KDE Neon FTW just because it's what I use. Although you do need to rollback libpoppler-glib8 with the latest update, which is simple, I can post a link if it helps.

Steam are now basing their SteamOS on Arch with the KDE DE, so any similar Arch based distro would work fine. As can be seen FSCDiablo uses Fedora, so I assume a similar build would be adequate.

MFW. Thanks for the correction.

 

[ChadD]

Mint? Been the go-to for easy entry/re-entry for years. They have a Debian build (Steam OS is Debian).

It isn't debian based since the deck.
Steam OS 3.0 is based on Arch.
Valve got sick of dealing with Debians locked down "stable" includes and drivers.
Arch is rolling. Which means as Valve pushes fixes they are in the complete pipe. If they update DXVX the latest GIT versions say MESA which powers the deck GPU is what is pushed OS wise.
If your looking for a good desktop alternative. I have loved Manjaro for a long time. Manjaro is also based on Arch... its rolling but with a 1-2 week delay. Which IMO works out for the best 99% of the time.

 

[ChadD]

I've messed with Linux since the days you could go to the book store and buy a clearance Slackware book for $6 with a CD and have tried many distros over the years; the last one being Arch maybe 4 years ago. I'd always have fun with the adventure for a few weeks and then be back in Windows because some game that should work fine would have some random issue (last one I remember is the cursor not working in League of Legend and being forced to try 20 different Lutris scripts or WINE branches).

What are the "good" distros nowadays if one wants to game? I'm not afraid of the terminal but would prefer not to spend ALL of my time troubleshooting sound issues and such like the olden days.

https://manjaro.org/download/
Manjaro is normally my goto. All the arch goodness with much less of the arch command line. Nothing wrong with building an arch install... its a lot more work.

 

[Mazzspeed]

Valve got sick of dealing with Debians locked down "stable" includes and drivers.

Because the Steam Deck has an AMD GPU, Arch simply makes sense. Otherwise Valve have to wait for the AMD open source drivers and Mesa drivers to be merged into the LTS kernel, which means relying on Canonical, yadda...Yadda.

Hence why I prefer Nvidia running LTS releases. You can update the kernel, but then it's not really an LTS release.

EDIT: I bought ZakMcKraken and the Alien Mindbenders many, many years ago under GOG - I actually forgot all about it. After installing GOG I saw it there and thought I'd give it a crack, I haven't played this game since a Commodore 64 followed by a Commodore Amiga were my systems of choice.

 

[ChadD]

Because the Steam Deck has an AMD GPU, Arch simply makes sense. Otherwise Valve have to wait for the AMD open source drivers and Mesa drivers to be merged into the kernel, which means relying on Canonical, yadda...Yadda.

Hence why I prefer Nvidia running LTS releases. You can update the kernel, but then it's not really an LTS release.

Makes sense. I have never been a fan of LTS... for my own machine. For me LTS is for workstations and servers.
I always found with "LTS" distros I just ended up changing kernels... using things like PPAs to override things like MESA. It just lead to more problems then just letting it all roll. IMO anyway the arguments the other way are valid. lol

 

[ChadD]

For what its worth as well... Manjaro is Valves recommended distro for developers without a dev kit. (that it is also super end user friendly is all the better)
https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/steamdeck/testing
Valve believes Manjaro is the closest distro to their own right now... I believe for developers they still have to release a package for their gamepad ui or something like that. But its 99.9% the same as Steam OS. A fresh manjaro install even has SteamOS pre installed.
Manjaro has their own repos where they pull from Arch... but delay updates by 1-3 weeks depending on the package. This is basically exactly what Valve is doing with SteamOS so they are very very close. It means a weekly update day instead of constantly having tons of updates daily with Arch. (There is little you really need the day the git is updated... if there is Manjaro maintains a "testing" repo which is just daily arch you can pull individual packages from if you really need something a week or two early)

 

[Mazzspeed]

Makes sense. I have never been a fan of LTS... for my own machine. For me LTS is for workstations and servers.
I always found with "LTS" distros I just ended up changing kernels... using things like PPAs to override things like MESA. It just lead to more problems then just letting it all roll. IMO anyway the arguments the other way are valid. lol

I run LTS and I honestly have no issues, but as stated I'm not running an AMD GPU. If I was running an AMD GPU I'd probably just update the kernel, keeping it a release back from bleeding edge. I've done it on different LTS installs in the past and never encountered an issue.

I'm used to apt over pacman and terribly stuck in my ways.

 

[ChadD]

Because the Steam Deck has an AMD GPU, Arch simply makes sense. Otherwise Valve have to wait for the AMD open source drivers and Mesa drivers to be merged into the LTS kernel, which means relying on Canonical, yadda...Yadda.

Hence why I prefer Nvidia running LTS releases. You can update the kernel, but then it's not really an LTS release.

EDIT: I bought ZakMcKraken and the Alien Mindbenders many, many years ago under GOG - I actually forgot all about it. After installing GOG I saw it there and thought I'd give it a crack, I haven't played this game since a Commodore 64 followed by a Commodore Amiga were my systems of choice.

View attachment 534395

I don't remember that game... but its Lucas arts I must have played it at some point.

 

[ChadD]

I run LTS and I honestly have no issues, but as stated I'm not running an AMD GPU. If I was running an AMD GPU I'd probably just update the kernel, keeping it a release back from bleeding edge. I've done it on different LTS installs in the past and never encountered an issue.

I'm used to apt over pacman and terribly stuck in my ways.

Ya no doubt lots of people install their LTS and then hack em up... as long as your not under any illusions about the stability. At that point you have your own personalized distro... which is fine 99% of the time especially if you no how to fix the odd error that may be very unique to your own distro. One thing I like about rolling releases like Arch if you do run into an error caused by an update... everyone using Arch is as well, so they tend to get squashed fast or at least you can find threads in the forums ect. (not that issues like that happen often anyway)

That is the main reason I always tell people with low Linux experience that want to game to steer clear of LTS. I mean it can be done but you have to know which PPAs to trust which not to trust... and how to fix the odd X repository update caused odd behavior even when there isn't anything you did wrong. The advice they tend to get from other neck beards is stick with Ubuntu Mint ect... I imagine because the idea of a stable rolling release seems wrong to most long time Linux users. (but us long time users find a distro we love and mostly stop paying attention to anything else). I get your point on Nvidia... it is logical to stick with a low update Distro with NV to avoid all the kernel rebuilds. Nvidia does drive me nuts on rolling I mean Manjaro/Arch push every minor kernel update and its rebolt Nvidia every time. For AMD users though rolling is just so much smoother... especially the last couple years where it seems every second minor kernel update and monthly MESA update was greatly improving game performance and compatibility.