HardOCP News
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Steam Ending Paid Mods; Providing Refunds
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atp1916
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Good move.
Steam set up absolutely 0 validation and verification of mod work to ensure it was original content. That animation flap pretty much proved this. If this had continued, people would have been ripping off other people left and right.
What is a good move would be re-introducing this idea, but with a VnV process built in. I don't mind seeing people get paid - just the right people.
Steam set up absolutely 0 validation and verification of mod work to ensure it was original content. That animation flap pretty much proved this. If this had continued, people would have been ripping off other people left and right.
What is a good move would be re-introducing this idea, but with a VnV process built in. I don't mind seeing people get paid - just the right people.
DarkStar_WNY
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I hope they replace it with a donation button, where the entire donation goes to the modder.
Valve gets "paid" by the returning users, and Bethesda gets paid by modders keeping it's game relevant, not to mention fixing many things they should have fixed themselves.
Valve gets "paid" by the returning users, and Bethesda gets paid by modders keeping it's game relevant, not to mention fixing many things they should have fixed themselves.
kbrickley
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It was a poor launch attempt ... the idea is not without merit though and I would expect to see some form of this in the future (but not with a title with a strong preexisting mod base) ... most of us learn from our mistakes and usually business is no different ... DLC has taken a few years to find its niche but it is now firmly established (and working for both developers and users generally) ... I suspect a paid mod system can work, but it needs a more careful implementation with some form of curation or QC ... Valve and Bethesda have a year or more to figure this out before a valid platform to try this on launches (Elder Scrolls VI or Fallout IV)
I like that idea.
This would be the only acceptable way of doing this IMO. It would make it easier and safer to download mods but wouldn't be trying to sell stuff we currently get for free.
acidrain97
Limp Gawd
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Francis will be overjoyed... break out the MTN Dew..
The possibility for folks to just upload someone else's work and start charging for it was blatantly clear, and Steam & Bethesda did not appear to have considered that possibility. The other thing I noticed was simply that the "paid" mods weren't anything special compared to the free ones already available. And definitely not extensive enough to justify their price compared to some of the MASSIVE mods you can download for free.
Trepidati0n
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However, I I think what Steam/Bethesda is trying to do is the "right thing". First pass was "good intentions" but "bad execution". I would like to see what the second pass is. If this works out, it could allow a much better avenue for DLC since the creativity of fans will most likely be ultimately higher than the staff within the company. However, the drawback is this will force content to be "bigger" to rationalize the overhead required (e.g. verifying ocntent) to pay for such a strcuture. Not sure that is "so bad"...but not great either.
Hornet
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Ultimately, the consumer speaks. I don't see a problem with Bethesda and Valve trying it out, as long as they are willing to accept the outcome and react accordingly. In this case, they did just that.
IMO, a better way would be for Bethesda to hand pick worthy mods, come to an agreement with the creator and sell them as DLC. Opening the flood gates to the entire community was probably not the best idea.
That said, the fact that there were modders who tried it out tells me that not the entire modding community was against it. There are modders out there who wants such a concept, so it would not be fair to say this was something nobody asked for.
IMO, a better way would be for Bethesda to hand pick worthy mods, come to an agreement with the creator and sell them as DLC. Opening the flood gates to the entire community was probably not the best idea.
That said, the fact that there were modders who tried it out tells me that not the entire modding community was against it. There are modders out there who wants such a concept, so it would not be fair to say this was something nobody asked for.
If Valve and Bethesda still make money off that stolen mod (and can't be held liable for stealing it) why would they care to stop it?
I'm sure they considered the problem very early in the planning process, but chose to ignore it for the sake of profit.
Very clear, as they don't implement these kinds of changes, especially with a game as big as Skyrim, without having business meetings discussing this in detail.
It was simply a matter of all the potential negativism being "not Valve's problem" while enjoying all the profits with zero effort.
From a greedy "its not going to suck itself" standpoint, I can appreciate their boldness, but as a consumer I can reserve the right to bitch and if not corrected then take my business elsewhere to a place that cares about customer service and maintaining a trust relationship.
DarkStar_WNY
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I loved his rant, especially the "You never hire more then 4 people to work on any project" part.
![Zarathustra[H]](https://cdn.hardforum.com/data/avatars/m/9/9298.jpg?1707758471){kind=avatar}
Zarathustra[H]
Extremely [H]
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I'm just impressed that they were willing to publicly admit that they were wrong and made a mistake, and fix it.
We need more companies to be like that.
We need more companies to be like that.
How about modders who actually have to earn their place into the paid ranks. If they are good enough that Bethesda thinks they deserve compensation for their work then put them on the pay line. That being said, each entry needs to be evaluated even after they have earned a spot in the store. If they stop supporting their content then it comes out of the store and they come off the list.
Yup, I been playing Falskar lately and that guy did some real work. It isn't without it's problems, but it was some serious content. There is just a vast difference between this and something like reskinning a sword.
Only Illinois as far as I know, which makes me so angry I don't even know where to start. They made it a felony to record a police officer in a public place... because its so inconvenient to record them when they're shooting someone in the back, and their privacy is important.
Houston PD unions are fighting requirement for body-cams too, which makes no sense how they shouldn't be federally required, since they drastically reduce court costs to the tax payer since its no longer "he said, she said" when its on camera. The only justification is that cops won't like someone able to scrutinize the legality of their work, and won't be able to be as "flexible" enforcing the rules as they currently enjoy, and having the benefit of the doubt ALWAYS in their favor in court.SOB, I had too many tabs open, lol! Meant for it to go here: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1860132&page=2
atreidesgoldenpath
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Lol funny dump in the wrong thread.
Only Illinois as far as I know, which makes me so angry I don't even know where to start. They made it a felony to record a police officer in a public place... because its so inconvenient to record them when they're shooting someone in the back, and their privacy is important.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/eavesdroppinglaw.asp
You really need to venture outside of your bubble of rage forums some time.
TheOneKnownAsMe
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Only Illinois as far as I know, which makes me so angry I don't even know where to start. They made it a felony to record a police officer in a public place... because its so inconvenient to record them when they're shooting someone in the back, and their privacy is important.
Does every thread you post in devolve into this? We're all aware of your opinion. You have the SoapBox in GenMay, why clog up perfectly good threads with this?
kbrickley
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Zarathustra[H];1041573083 said:
The benefit of private ownership ... a public company is more careful to avoid attracting the eye of the government or lawsuits from their shareholders ... neither of those affect private companies
I was answering a specific question in another thread, but had two tabs open with reply windows while I was doing other stuff. My bad, but it was on point and relevant to where it was supposed to go.
TheOneKnownAsMe
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I was answering a specific question in another thread, but had two tabs open with reply windows while I was doing other stuff. My bad, but it was on point and relevant to where it was supposed to go.
Okay, that makes a lot more sense.
If nothing else, this faux pas by Valve has made for some quality entertainment within the Skyrim Steam Workshop. To really appreciate it, you need to have played the game, of course, but some of this stuff had me laughing so hard, I was almost in tears.
By that logic then because piracy exists, people steal games and even sell pirated games in some countries, videogames should therefore not be developed anymore or just all be free. Fail logic.
Maybe since this is all over now we drop the bullshit excuses and red herrings people tried latching onto during the great "debate" and just admit what this was all really about for most whiners: they like everything to be free, and to hell with the modders that were interested in participating in the program, some of whom had burned out on modding and had stopped updating their mods but this program was a way back for them. Because "derp I WANT FREE MODZ NAO"
I was answering a specific question in another thread, but had two tabs open with reply windows while I was doing other stuff. My bad, but it was on point and relevant to where it was supposed to go.
Too bad it was factually incorrect
Flogger23m
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I don't think anyone will hold back and say that charging for mods certainly kills the appeal of them in the first place. People already pay for DLC/expansions. One of the things that sets mods apart from other forms of game additions is that you can get additional content for free. Not only that, but they have less restrictions & influence from what is most marketable. Bring money into it and you'll see less niche mods like the ACE mod for ArmA and instead even more mainstream garbage Day Z/zombie mods because that is what sells.
There is certainly a difference between real 3rd party content creators who make a living off of licensed game development, like the following:
http://www.leatherneck-sim.com/
And your typical modder. I know this is going off on a different topic, but lets be realistic here. The dynamics of the projects are very different. I suppose those that are not into modding don't understand why the free/open nature has helped mods greatly in the past. But again, that is yet another topic.
rudy
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So what? That's all there really is to say about your whole argument. Do you seriously think that many people are not making garbage mods for free? And even if it did bring more junk or whatever that you don't like then what on earth is stopping you from not buying it? Nothing.
There is no such thing as a distinction between a mod and a dlc, and a total conversion or whatever. These things are all on a gradient, many games that people pay for are no more work than a mod for other games. And there are some "mods" that basically make an entire new game. If someone puts enough work or attracts enough people to something they are willing to pay for so what? great for them great for the modder who can make some cash.
It is mind boggling how people seem to think there are these distinctions between classes of things, this reminds of when everyone on the internet would go play stupid flash games for free, but then apple made the app store and the same stupid flash games were $5. And somehow that made it perfectly acceptable to pay for what used to be free. Me personally I wouldn't buy most of them but some apps are worth buying. And in the start it might have been down right silly but over time competition forced a lot of those apps to go free or very cheap and the same would have happened with steam mods. Its up to consumers to pull their head out of their asses and actually think about what they are doing. If you dump $5 into a my little pony for skyrim that's your problem I am not going to tell valve and all modders their system is broken because you decided to do that. I personally would gladly pay on steam for a high quality mod. Because that mod might be worth more than an official expansion or DLC or mod or total conversion or whatever the moronic buzzword of the year for the same shit is.
Flogger23m
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Actually there is. Are you going to tell me there is no difference between a large truck and a car to? Are you really arguing that there is no difference between a re-texture mod and a mod which introduces entirely new gameplay, all art assets, all new sounds, voice overs, and other massive changes to the code? And you are telling me you can't differentiate between content made by the game developers and content made by someone else?
I think you're missing the point here. Mods typically build upon other mods. Even years after the original modders stop updating them. Typically the content is released for free and the authors allow it to be reused as long as they are credited. People often release assets for free use because they know they do not have the skill set/knowledge on how to integrate it into a mod worth playing.
The moment you start adding money into the equation, you will see less collaborative efforts (aside from small organized studios). Why release your 3D model for others to use? Even if they use it in a free mod, you're still creating competition. Why make a tutorial that helps the competition? Why work on a niche project when you won't get as much profit? Often times larger mods start out using free content only to replace it at a later date. It gets the ball rolling. Mods often start out small with a single person before a decent concept is shown. My point? Adding money into the equation won't "improve the quality of mods".
As for total conversions, those who have profit in mind can make their own game. They certainly do still have their place, but I think most people who want to make total conversions & money would rather make their own game given the low cost of UE4 (just 5%) and the upcoming entirely free Source 2.
FrozenLiquidity
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I've got to echo this.
As someone who has only very recently dipped back in to modding and creating custom content, I can tell you the landscape that currently exists would be vastly different if this were monetized.
This is a little niche, but I'll present my own case in point:
There's a very popular custom mission for Arma 2 called "Escape Chernarus". It was created several years ago by Engima of Östgöta, or just Engima for short. This mission probably required months of work to complete and the last version of the release alone had over 50,000 downloads - and that's just for the folks hosting the mission.
Fast-forward to the release of Arma 3 and a few new faces that want to take the mission and re-create the experience in the new engine. They were able to take that mission and modify it to work with the new terrain and the new game assets - added additional features and re-created the experience with fresh ideas.
Being fans of the mission, a friend and I had our own ideas about it and set about improving it even further with our own branch after inquiring about it.
It is highly unlikely that any of this would have been possible had this been released as a pay-for mission/modification. Though the initial release by Engima arguably could have benefited and been further enhanced due to the increased incentive that monetization provides, there is no way to ensure that and it's just as likely that it will be dropped or otherwise neglected if/when it fails to pay all the bills and slack needs to be picked up elsewhere.
It's also unlikely that anyone else could have come along and built upon the mission that Engima created. Once money is involved, there's little point in Engima sharing his work with anyone and creating competition against his own product. Not only does this stifle the creative process and hinder the freely flowing ideas that we have now, but if anyone wanted to create something like this for the same or future platform, they would essentially have to reinvent the wheel from the ground up. This would greatly amplify the amount of work required to turn out something which otherwise could have been done with a few lines of code. Some people (myself certainly) don't have the knowledge to completely rebuild something like this from the ground up, but could surely make changes that would offer players new and different experiences while improving upon a proven base.
When money, rather than passion and the desire to create a better player experience, is thrust in to place as the driving force for a community, collaboration will decrease as competition increases, people are going to be less willing to share anything that may allow someone else to compete with them or provide so much as a leg up on the competition. Efforts like the one I described above would be unlikely to ever occur, the ideas that others have will be unlikely to find their way into whatever is released unless the owner of that content picks up on it. Instead of seeing great works that build upon each other, the landscape will be mostly populated with single-story works that will live and die with the whims of their creator.
Given what we have now and the modding community at large, almost every aspect of a monetized system that I can see does nothing to help UGC (user-generated content), but rather stifles it to a great extent.
kbrickley
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This is the part of the argument for paid mods I don't understand ... DLC is here and firmly here because people accept it ... I don't see all the people who were vehemently opposed to paid mods standing up for boycotts of all software with DLC ... people download hundreds of mods currently because they are free ... if they were paid wouldn't they just become more choosy and only download mods with more perceived quality (killing the market for paid garbage mods)
Things like some of the quality control questions were valid and I am sure will be worked out before paid mods become mainstream ... DLC evolved over close to a decade before it became mainstream (and although lots of people complain about it they still buy it ... or enough do to make it profitable) ... I expect paid mods to make another appearance but for a game with no established mod base (probably the next Elder Scrolls or Fallout games) ... I would anticipate several things in the next go round:
1. Each modder will have a unique account and login (just like the regular steam accounts) so that violators of the policies like stealing mods will be banned
2. Modders will have both free and paid mods since they need to establish their quality and ability history before people will want to buy
3. Users will have a report button to report mods that don't work ... they will also have access to mod ratings and reviews for verified purchasers/downloaders (to prevent malicious or SPAM ratings)
4. They might also change the mod screens to indicate the scope of the mod (item, area, time to complete, etc) so the value of a given mod can be more easily assessed
They will probably make other changes as well before they try another launch.
rudy
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Notice how you had to say large truck, because you knew if you just said truck it might not work, what is an el camino? There is no boundry simply a gradient a huge gradient. And no I cant tell the difference between "game developers" and someone else because if you are making content for games you are a developer aren't you one that develops for games umm a game developer? If a person whom is labeled a "modder" makes something whatever they call it I will judge and pay for it by how much I feel it is worth and I wont give 2 shits if its called a mod, a total conversion, a dlc, or a whole game. Because there is no line that can be defined that clearly differentiates all these things. That is the hilarity and stupidity of the whole argument against this half you idiots have been paying good money to buy shit they now call DLCs for games that is less work and quality than many "mods".
I am not missing the point the original modder needs to allow others to build on their work if they don't then they are building they are stealing. The idea that money being involved will change that in a purely negative direction is a fallacy. Yes some people wont release things, others might release with something like a GNU license forcing anyone who builds on it to release it for free and still others will allow people to buy their work for a price. Once again this is just a red herring trying to distract people from the real motivation which is you all want to buy a game once and leave almost no room or power for modders to charge for stuff so you can get it for free.
Saying that the only option a person has is to make their own game is the stupidest of all arguments. It goes against everything that this mods workshop was going to solve. Making your own game is a huge process, massive, you need to get many things worked out payment system, web site, etc.... But what if all you want to do is modify an existing game to make it better or give it more replay. How does telling such a person that they must make an entirely new game help them in anyway? It doesn't. It makes the barrier to entry into the gaming industry that much larger, it forces the person to make a completely new IP and avoid any links to the old one. And the best irony of it all? It increases the number of shitty small games that get pushed out. Wasn't that the very thing half of you were trying to argue was the problem with paid mods?
rudy
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I gotta laugh so hard at all this if valve had simply done the exact same thing they are doing now but instead called it third party DLC half the people here wouldn't even have a problem with it. I guess simply changing the name of the same shit suddenly makes it all OK right? So if gearbox makes a "mod" for halflife called opposing forces you all pay for it and consider it a new game but if I make it suddenly its got to be free right and you all go up in arms if valve wants to allow me to sell it..... Because mines not a game dudes its a mod! When are people going to wake the hell up and realize that people call shit whatever the hell they want because people are stupid enough to fall for it. If a company wants you to pay for a mod they simply rename it a game or a dlc and off you guys go throwing your money at it. And through that whole process you never say anything like well its got to be directly from valve or I wont buy it, you never ask where did they get model X or Y from, you simply buy it. But suddenly when valve tries to make what I would call a service for more modular game development you all freak out, OMG someones going to steal a mod. You know that the map resistance in HL2DM was freaking stolen from a mod? You know that stalkyard in HLDM was ripped strait out of the dev kit and valve said it was an accident? Nope you don't care, why because this isn't about right or wrong or the future its just about a bunch of people who will be pissed if they have to pay for a high quality mod they were getting for free and not donating too.
Flogger23m
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It would certainly decrease community related developmental offshoots if people start locking things down. When money is on the line I am less likely to trust someone working on some content I provided in the hopes they will do their part. The exception would be people looking to become professionals and want to start a business. Although in general, those people already had ample opportunities to create their own game with Steam Green light, free Unreal Engine 4 (save for 5% royalties), an upcoming and entirely free Source 2 engine, easier access to distribution via Steam, Kickstarter & more. If you're going to put the effort, time and money into a massive professional project you'd be crazy to go the total conversion mod route and only get 25% of the cut when you can make a standalone game and cut Bethesda (insert any other developer) and make ~70% per sale on Steam.
Gearbox was a professional, licensed studio. You are not. If you can not see the difference in that then there is no point in discussing it further.
To further illustrate the point, often times the "work into" something doesn't matter. Modders often use free/student versions of software. Which means legally, they can not sell content they created with it unless they pay for the license. So those modders who made professional looking 3D models for their mods will now have to fork over the ~$3000+ for 3DS Max if they want to sell their assets. Something similar happened with TWI's RO2 in which lots of content from modders was going to be used in updates as free DLC. It got thrown out because lots of the modders did not have the appropriate licenses.
If a group can get together, provide a professional product (including guaranteed compatibility for all game updates), proper integration into the core game ect. then I have no problem with 3rd party expansions.
rudy
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I go down to the county clerk, I give them $10 bucks and I am now a professional licensed studio rofl so now you buy my mod right? Get a grip and learn how the world really works.
Unlike you I judge shit based on the product not some phony bullshit front or name someone gives it. Oh and gearbox, you know they abandoned opposing forces multiplayer and left it in an unplayable state when valve moved to steam? Didn't see that coming did you? opposing force players had to wait months for valve to get half the game back and half working and I am not sure they ever received the CTF component back. So I guess being a professional licensed studio didn't do shit to "including guaranteed compatibility for all game updates" did it now?
Like we haven't seen plenty of huge development studios leave shit fully or half broken. Once again remove all the bullshit names and barriers and learn to judge a product for what it is, not the parade that comes before it. I find it hilarious that someone who seems to support free mods would think that the licensing agreement of a modeling suite has any bearing on if a company is going to support a game while you probably don't mind downloading all sorts of free mods where a person pirated the same modeling suite. The fact is when you break it down you realize the arguments just don't makes sense in the real world so the only explanation is pure selfishness. If you don't like feel FREE to not buy the mods. But don't try to impose your will on everyone else and ruin an opportunity many modders have to ease their way into the game development world or even create the next great game.
Unlike you I judge shit based on the product not some phony bullshit front or name someone gives it. Oh and gearbox, you know they abandoned opposing forces multiplayer and left it in an unplayable state when valve moved to steam? Didn't see that coming did you? opposing force players had to wait months for valve to get half the game back and half working and I am not sure they ever received the CTF component back. So I guess being a professional licensed studio didn't do shit to "including guaranteed compatibility for all game updates" did it now?
Like we haven't seen plenty of huge development studios leave shit fully or half broken. Once again remove all the bullshit names and barriers and learn to judge a product for what it is, not the parade that comes before it. I find it hilarious that someone who seems to support free mods would think that the licensing agreement of a modeling suite has any bearing on if a company is going to support a game while you probably don't mind downloading all sorts of free mods where a person pirated the same modeling suite. The fact is when you break it down you realize the arguments just don't makes sense in the real world so the only explanation is pure selfishness. If you don't like feel FREE to not buy the mods. But don't try to impose your will on everyone else and ruin an opportunity many modders have to ease their way into the game development world or even create the next great game.