Star Wars: TOR... Lowering My Expectations Yet Again...

Gigantism said:
The thing is, it is really looking like it's gonna be Wow set in the SW universe
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What exactly gives it that impression?

The fully voice over dialogue? The companions? The story telling (which goes hand-in-hand with the voice dialogue)? The cover system and no auto-attack?

Or is it the talents and the specializations? Or the stylized art approach? Or the focus on character stories? Or maybe the PvP battlegrounds?
 
It's WoW set in a SW universe because it's not KOTOR3.

I'm just bitter that KOTOR3 is nowhere near in sight. Shoot, give me KOTOR3: Star Fox! Something!
 
Gigantism said:
Alright,

First of all, Ep1 sucked (except for the Lightsaber fight in the end), Ep2 sucked even more, and Ep3 sucked as much as a SW film can suck (how can one fuck up a movie that bad??)
And it's not Anakin's fault (the actor is terrible but still), it's not Jar Jar's fault...it's Lucas' fault.

As far as the game goes, I must say I was excited at first when I saw the video of space combat, only because I didn't think there would be any.
Then, I realized that it's a StarFox thing, but it's still no real biggy to me, I guess I'd rather have that as a mini game, than something trying to be better but broken (like others have mentioned) or nothing at all.

The thing is, it is really looking like it's gonna be Wow set in the SW universe (although I read somewhere that apparently, there won't be any auto attack which I find is a big first step toward making this legit).

But can you blame them? I'm sure they are expecting 100% of the current wow playerbase who is bored (lol) to switch to SWTOR...

I think if I were BioWare, I'd do the same (maybe, not sure about that one still lol).
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It is Lucas's fault. That asshat is ruining the Star Wars brand with the kiddie stuff. I am 23. I was like 12 when the Episode 1 movie came out. I remember thinking, "WTF is this shit" at the theatre. It was awful. It still is. It hasn't aged well. The whole thing was a mistake. There never should have been the prequels.

I just wish the cartoonish crap would stop. Yet it continues.
 
Making a cookie cutter MMO and banking on bored WoW players and die-hard Star Wars fans flocking to your game is probably a great business decision, though I was truly hoping for something more. The only reason I played WoW for as long as I did was because it was my first MMO. My friends were the only thing that kept me from quiting after the first six months since the game was just a place for us to hang-out online after that initial "wow everything is magical and massive" phase wore off. TOR doesn't have the luxury of popping my MMO cherry though, so unless it offers something substantially more engaging than WoW's end-game, I doubt I'll be playing it for long, if at all.
 
Savoy said:
^This right here. That's what I would ideally want as well. Now don't get me wrong I completely understand that this requires a lot if effort,time and resources which is why I would more than understand if it didn't make it in for launch. I would have thought they would have added it un as an expansion later on. See a lot of us don't want a minigame we want a full blown add on to do it justice. Instead it seems like they are gonna try to squeeze it in for launch so they can add it to the box as a bullet point. I hope I'm wrong and its not slapped together. I know biowares rep and I'm a fan of their other games but I have high expectations for this game and I don't want cheesy shit thrown in. That's about it.
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I was being completely sarcastic, lol.

It's ****ing retarded to actually expect this from ToR, especially at launch.
 
What leads any of us to believe that this wont be a shitty WoW clone? Not saying it's destined for that, but last I saw it was looking like neverwinter nights 2 meets Star Wars.
 
Let's hope they are smart enough to not clone WoW. WoW went from Great, to Good, to Mediocre after the last xpac. Made the game so mindless its not even funny.
 
From the gameplay videos it does seem to follow the MMO standard (Tank/DPS/Healer). I would have found it much more appealing if they had branched away from this and created similar to what GW2 has (or what it seems they have done). This would be to have no dedicated healer classes and everyone really works as a team to get the job done. I'm not saying it's a wow clone or anything but it does look very similar to many of the current MMOs.

Now if I had my way completely I would want Bioware to make a KotOR3 and have Blizzard screw WoW and make a Warcraft 4 already :D But we all know that isn't likely to happen..
 
TheToE! said:
What leads any of us to believe that this wont be a shitty WoW clone? Not saying it's destined for that, but last I saw it was looking like neverwinter nights 2 meets Star Wars.
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We know surprisingly little given how long it's been in development. Only the devs and the few beta players have so far seen how the game works in the "details" like character creation, PVP, etc

The gist is that it combines single player story telling with MMO abilities like PVP, PVE, "socializing", etc but has actual plot progression and companion characters (and each class has it's own entirely unique story). You'll pick dialogue choices like any good RPG but you'll be voiced a la Mass Effect, and when you're doing quests with other players, they'll take part in the dialogue too.

While it's clear they are taking a lot of cues from WoW in some ways (who wouldn't take notes from the most successful PC game in history?) but it definitely won't be another clone.
 
Parmenides said:
It's WoW set in a SW universe because it's not KOTOR3.

I'm just bitter that KOTOR3 is nowhere near in sight. Shoot, give me KOTOR3: Star Fox! Something!
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In one of the interviews one of the devs said tor was an opportunity to make kotor 3-10 plus or something like that


We need to wait and see how it goes, if they keep the framework of kotor with the depth of story and immersive universe, but add all the extra bells and whistles of an mmorpg, then you should have no problem.

If you still do, not sure why. I did not like kotor 1/2 because they were single player games, I liked them because of the experience they gave me. It was the first time out of all the times I played a star wars game I sat there and thought, wow, this is a great universe to play around in. They were going into ancient and powerful sith tombs, and all the lore that surrounded that. And the sky was the limit. And the constant income of an mmo means we get MORE of that development !!!!!!!!!


the biggest problem with kotor I/II was that they ended !!!!!!


Like any great work, like a book series, if it is really that good you don't WANT it to end !
 
th0r1 said:
I think the space combat is cool and I also think the prequels were just as good as the originals. And I'm not 9.
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The space combat looks alright. The prequels were pretty bad. From Jar Jar Binks in ep1 to the wooden acting in ep3, it was all horrible.
 
J W said:
Honestly, I want KOTOR 3 because I want the two stories tied up. I want Revan. I want Bastila. And I want the Exile.

The video looked okay. I hope the stories actually are as good as those in the previous KOTOR games.
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KOTOR had a good story and I enjoyed it. While KOTOR 2 was a good game, the story was kind of cheesy and it seemed rushed in the end.
 
Bioware has said that we can think of this as being like an organic single player game that's constantly being updated - except that you'll see other people going about their online business, and that you'll be able to play with them IF you want to.

Sounds promising to me.

For those wanting to play KOTOR 3 - this is it, guys. There's not going to be a KOTOR 3.
 
It seems like people are jumping to a lot of conclusions even though we still don't know diddly squat about the game.
 
rayman2k2 below is right.... a lot of you dorks here are jumping to conclusions.

And more importantly... most of you are clueless to the fact this is an MMO game totally seperate from the old RPG, single player Star Wars Knight of the Old Republic games... these 2 are totallllllllllllllllllly different games so to ask the devs to make it like the SP games is rather stupid and pointless.

If you want KOTOR3, then do not look at this game at all you bafoons.... this is an MMORPG!!!!

I hope you guys get a clue, and realize the space thing is just a small sidestep to this entire game. It won't be a main focus point in this SWTOR MMO game.... so starfox it all you want, its just a small piece of this game!

I for one, am still waiting to get into beta!!! The game is definitely looking more complex and mature than shitty World of Warcraft (one of the lesser MMO's I have ever played... Star Wars Galaxies was my first MMO and it was the best MMO ever before they completely changed and ruined it!... And NO I usually dislike Star Wars, totally not a star wars fan at all but I played SWG and will surely play this one if its anywhere near the same as SWG was in the beginning year.
 
rayman2k2 said:
It seems like people are jumping to a lot of conclusions even though we still don't know diddly squat about the game.
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Exactly, and I especially dislike the fact everyone here is comparing the crappy old RPG star wars games to this as if this MMORPG is the 3rd installment to the series... NO, its not!

This is a totally seperate new game that has zero to do with the single player KOTOR games that have came out.

AND SAYING THIS IS A WoW star wars clone??!?!!? really? WoW is a kiddy game where you only use the mouse and 2 or 3 keys before casting spells. That is barely a mature game now, thats why I quit playing it years ago!

..........and does WoW have a feature where your character can hide behind walls and take cover? NO!
........does WoW have a story line with characters? NO! Its mostly crappy NPCs with text boxes.

Get real kiddies, this game is going to be big and crush the WoW subscription rates without A DOUBT! Just look at many gaming sites and see the huge (justifiable, not just word of mouth hype) hype surrounding this game, I just hope it lives up to it.
 
Luxor said:
Exactly, and I especially dislike the fact everyone here is comparing the crappy old RPG star wars games to this as if this MMORPG is the 3rd installment to the series... NO, its not!

This is a totally seperate new game that has zero to do with the single player KOTOR games that have came out..
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Actually you're both correct and wrong. It is a new game, however, it takes place about 300 years after KOTOR and KOTOR 2. Continuing the storyline.

Luxor said:
AND SAYING THIS IS A WoW star wars clone??!?!!? really? WoW is a kiddy game where you only use the mouse and 2 or 3 keys before casting spells. That is barely a mature game now, thats why I quit playing it years ago!

..........and does WoW have a feature where your character can hide behind walls and take cover? NO!
........does WoW have a story line with characters? NO! Its mostly crappy NPCs with text boxes..
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Wrong again. WoW has a very developed Storyline with very rich lore. In my opinion the problem with WoW is all the attention challenged people that just want to race to the endgame so they can raid and get the best loot.

Don't misunderstand. If thats how they want to play the game thats fine, it's their money they're spending to play.

I'm a person that spends a ton of time actually exploring the world that Blizz created for me to play in. I actually GASP !!!! read the quest text and all the lore I come across in Azeroth. WoW is a role playing game and guess what ? I actually role play. My Character has a story. If you're not roleplaying then why the hell did you play WOW or any MMORPG for that matter ?

Luxor said:
Get real kiddies, this game is going to be big and crush the WoW subscription rates without A DOUBT! Just look at many gaming sites and see the huge (justifiable, not just word of mouth hype) hype surrounding this game, I just hope it lives up to it.
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I hope the game does well as I love the Star Wars Universe. I highly doubt however that they'll crush WoW subscription rates. Likely the only game that will do that is something put out by Blizzard themselves. I will be preordering the Collectors Edition of this game for sure. Really hope to get into beta at some point. Get real Luxor, what game is not over hypped ?

I love Bioware games, they're great story tellers. I hope that they can pull off what they're shooting for .... A fully interactive, immersing adventure that based on how I interact can change the game world. Many have tried, all, so far, have failed.
 
Colonel Sanders said:
We know surprisingly little given how long it's been in development. Only the devs and the few beta players have so far seen how the game works in the "details" like character creation, PVP, etc

The gist is that it combines single player story telling with MMO abilities like PVP, PVE, "socializing", etc but has actual plot progression and companion characters (and each class has it's own entirely unique story). You'll pick dialogue choices like any good RPG but you'll be voiced a la Mass Effect, and when you're doing quests with other players, they'll take part in the dialogue too.

While it's clear they are taking a lot of cues from WoW in some ways (who wouldn't take notes from the most successful PC game in history?) but it definitely won't be another clone.
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Cool, thanks for bringing me up to speed!
 
WoW does not have character driven stories where SWTOR will and does. Comparing the two is just plain silly.
 
Bioware is trying to create a new genre, the first MSMOORPG (Massively Singplayer - Multiplayer Optional - Online RPG).
 
Luxor said:
Get real kiddies, this game is going to be big and crush the WoW subscription rates without A DOUBT! Just look at many gaming sites and see the huge (justifiable, not just word of mouth hype) hype surrounding this game, I just hope it lives up to it.
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Hah! This is going to be a cheap cash-in attempt from Bioware.

You want real hype?
http://www.guildwars2.com
 
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Nothing definitive from what I've seen... hoping it's still early next year though.
 
If a shitty iteration in the form of a game of a 30 year old movie makes you angry then you need to re-evaluate your life.

In short -- who gives a shit? if the game fails, it fails.
 
This game is going to attract a very large fanbase regardless of what anyone thinks. It's a a Star Wars MMO!!! A lot of people have been expecting one for Star Wars ever since WoW came out. From what I have seen, this looks like the cinematics of the game are going to be INFINITELY better than WoW. People's avatars are actually going to TALK and npc's are ACTUALLY GOING TO TALK BACK...WITH THERE MOUTHS. Bioware has been taking there time with this and not rushing it like most other companies. This certainly shows that Bioware cares about how well this game is going to work. I for one am definitely looking for to powning some jedi in the face with a 2 lightsabes and a bunch of awesome moves that are going to be epic.
 
Starwars galaxies tried to become more like WoW and it absolutely destroyed the game (they called it the New Game Experience)..

IMO that more than anything will taint the sales and experience of The Old Republic.

I know i am quite a bit weary of trying TOR just based on the fact to what they did to SWG (letting people be jedi was their first mistake).. Lucasarts is far to willing to cave into the masses thinking it will sell big, hopefully Bioware has had enough intelligence to really stand up to lucasarts when making some of the major design decisions based on what they know makes a great game and not like Sony where they tried to appease Lucasarts into what they think will sell faster.

hopefully bioware looks at SWG and learned its lesson (and hopefully lucasarts realizes this too since they pretty much approve any changes)
 
Corbin said:
From the gameplay videos it does seem to follow the MMO standard (Tank/DPS/Healer). I would have found it much more appealing if they had branched away from this and created similar to what GW2 has (or what it seems they have done). This would be to have no dedicated healer classes and everyone really works as a team to get the job done.
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I hate how the majority (or so it seems to me) of anti-trinity proposals are essentially "remove healing and everything becomes awesome!". They don't seem to understand that there are only so many things you can do in combat* and removing one of them completely is unlikely to magically improve everything.

Now, if you design classes such that they can't be specialized into one specific combat action (or if you make it inefficient to do so), I think you're much more likely to succeed. This is something ArenaNet is going for in GW2 and I believe BW is trying to do in TOR, but we won't know for sure on that end until we know much more about all the Advanced Classes.

*To me, these are absorbing damage, dealing damage, repairing damage and preventing damage. Preventing damage (CC, ablatives, damage debuffs, etc) is usually either neglected (bad) or distributed (good). The other three are concentrated into specific classes in a trinity-class system.
 
Tor and gw2 are the 2 mmo's ill be playing next year for sure. Especially tor, I've been looking foward to it since soe fucked up swg.
 
MassConfusion said:
This game is going to attract a very large fanbase regardless of what anyone thinks. It's a a Star Wars MMO!!! A lot of people have been expecting one for Star Wars ever since WoW came out. From what I have seen, this looks like the cinematics of the game are going to be INFINITELY better than WoW. People's avatars are actually going to TALK and npc's are ACTUALLY GOING TO TALK BACK...WITH THERE MOUTHS. Bioware has been taking there time with this and not rushing it like most other companies. This certainly shows that Bioware cares about how well this game is going to work. I for one am definitely looking for to powning some jedi in the face with a 2 lightsabes and a bunch of awesome moves that are going to be epic.
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There are a huge number of posts in this thread where I can't tell if the poster is joking or not, this being one of them. If you're joking please use at least some form of smiley to indicate it.
 
Luxor said:
Get real kiddies, this game is going to be big and crush the WoW subscription rates without A DOUBT! Just look at many gaming sites and see the huge (justifiable, not just word of mouth hype) hype surrounding this game, I just hope it lives up to it.
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Here's another one.
 
drakhon said:
I hate how the majority (or so it seems to me) of anti-trinity proposals are essentially "remove healing and everything becomes awesome!". They don't seem to understand that there are only so many things you can do in combat* and removing one of them completely is unlikely to magically improve everything.

Now, if you design classes such that they can't be specialized into one specific combat action (or if you make it inefficient to do so), I think you're much more likely to succeed. This is something ArenaNet is going for in GW2 and I believe BW is trying to do in TOR, but we won't know for sure on that end until we know much more about all the Advanced Classes.

*To me, these are absorbing damage, dealing damage, repairing damage and preventing damage. Preventing damage (CC, ablatives, damage debuffs, etc) is usually either neglected (bad) or distributed (good). The other three are concentrated into specific classes in a trinity-class system.
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Healing is boring to most people, so is "tanking."

Yes some people do enjoy it, but there's a reason that in most mmo's, the healers are the least played classes, especially "healbot" types of mechanics.

Why not make healing a side-skill taht anyone can choose to learn or not? It's not fun havint to depend on specific classes for things, having to waste hours getting specific groups up for that raid, those days were fun in EQ but most people have moved on.

When you have a job and only a couple of hours to play a game you don't want to spend your "fun" time sitting around shouting "Looking for healer/tank" so you can do something useful.

What I hate about the "trinity" is how one-dimensional it ends up making classes. Playing a tank you go defense, shield, huge armor, then you hit like a little girly man, that is simply NOT fun to most people.

Playing a healer, you watch your teams health bars, dish out your heals as fast as you can while managing your mana, etc.

Take something like D&D, one of the foundations for the rpg genre in crpgs. The healer in it, the Cleric, is NOT at all like it is in most mmo's these days. Quite capable of being a damage guy and wearing armour/using weapons, etc.

We already know TOR follows a more traditional route when it comes to classes/the trinity, it's not likely to change. '

I
 
Stiler said:
Healing is boring to most people, so is "tanking."

Yes some people do enjoy it, but there's a reason that in most mmo's, the healers are the least played classes, especially "healbot" types of mechanics.

Why not make healing a side-skill taht anyone can choose to learn or not? It's not fun havint to depend on specific classes for things, having to waste hours getting specific groups up for that raid, those days were fun in EQ but most people have moved on.

When you have a job and only a couple of hours to play a game you don't want to spend your "fun" time sitting around shouting "Looking for healer/tank" so you can do something useful.

What I hate about the "trinity" is how one-dimensional it ends up making classes. Playing a tank you go defense, shield, huge armor, then you hit like a little girly man, that is simply NOT fun to most people.

Playing a healer, you watch your teams health bars, dish out your heals as fast as you can while managing your mana, etc.

Take something like D&D, one of the foundations for the rpg genre in crpgs. The healer in it, the Cleric, is NOT at all like it is in most mmo's these days. Quite capable of being a damage guy and wearing armour/using weapons, etc.

We already know TOR follows a more traditional route when it comes to classes/the trinity, it's not likely to change. '

I
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Another down fall of SWG is exactly this attitude of the players in that everyone wants to be able to Solo everything.. Its a horrible attitude and because of it SWG went right into the toilet.
 
H-street said:
Another down fall of SWG is exactly this attitude of the players in that everyone wants to be able to Solo everything.. Its a horrible attitude and because of it SWG went right into the toilet.
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I played SWG for my starting month and quit before it was over. Mainly due to the fact that they couldn't leave anything alone long enough for me to decide if I liked it or not. I think I changed my class 4 times in 3 weeks and at most went 2 days without them modifying something I had to where it was completely different. I know they settled that down some and got stuff working in a more reasonable manner at some point, but the fact that it was released like that.......and then went on to be changed into a completely different game without notice was why SWG went into the toilet. The players desire for being able to solo in the end might have had a little bit to play in it's demise, but not knowing WTF they were trying to accomplish was 90% of the problem. I don't mind tweaks to skills, even small nerfs are OK if they don't completely gimp you....but 2-3 changes a week that alter mechanics for one particular class if not more is not good especially when it's freshly retailed and should have been done in the beta phase it was just in.



As for the trinity of classes.........the main reason people generally dislike the setup in my opinion is because DPS is usually rewarded consistently and predictably. While tanking and healing is very nebulous when it comes to rewards/accomplishments/etc, but it has very real consequences when you are not effective in those roles. While DPS, if someone is poor at DPS output it usually doesn't mean death for the majority of the team unless all of the DPS characters suck. People want all the rewards without any of the consequences and the majority of pure DPS classes provide this....and since the majority of the people go this route...the quests and other things are normally designed around DPS. Hell, tanking even requires adequate DPS to maintain aggro in a lot of cases....but you also have to worry about having enough health, the best tanking armor...etc. The only people rewarding healers and tanks are guilds that don't have their heads up their asses, and they suffer at the hands of the game the rest of the time with their slow quest completions and what not. WoW (Im guessing) mitigated some of this with their dual spec system so you could go healer/tank when needed and flip to DPS for soloing on your own.

The trinity system is fine, it's just the games need to not centralize so much about DPS being the end all be all of their gameplay decisions. I don't have an answer to how they could modify the games to make it more healer/tank friendly without making it too easy or too hard for DPS types. But if your populations of tanks and healers are dwarfed by the DPS options....there's a problem. Either there is not enough need for tanks and healers as you had hoped, or they aren't getting handled appropriately by the game mechanics to make them desirable to play.

I know being a pure druid healer in WoW before they added the extra spec ability, I either had to re-spec to do my dailies in a reasonable time, have help, or snore my way through them. It was especially frustrating when I had to put a lot of money into healing gear/enchants and what not to get up to snuff while DPS could slack on their numbers. And my healing gear benefitted the raiding party and did little for me being out on my own doing dailies...while DPS gear was pretty useful around the clock. Everquest even allowed clerics to be near wizard strength when combating undead, so if a cleric got tired of healing bums all day, they could go to an undead zone and DPS if they wanted. Limited usefulness, but it was an option. Tanks in EQ were equipment based versus spec based until the AA system came in..then that had some sway in tanking ability...so you weren't totally without options.

I guess the central point is, DPS have very few limitations on what they can do on their own and tanks and healers limits are usually much lower. Even with a tank/healer combo often times a pure DPS will have more tricks to allow them to deal with mob pulls than a tank/healer combo would.... so that's potentially a single player having more survivability than a duo. It's a frustrating thing to deal with as a non-DPS.
 
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It's an MMO.

That fact alone has to temper a number of people's expectations. Sure as hell does mine. YMMV.
 
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