"Star Trek: Discovery" Renewed for Season 3

[5150Joker]

It's not solid. It's better than Discovery and shows some potential, but it has a number of flaws. Not the least of which is that it's got a convoluted plot with way too much going on that makes very little sense if you think about it in the slightest.

So, here we go:

Spoiler: The plot is derivative, the Romulan situation, is dumb as fuck. The Federation isn't the Federation anymore, and millennial speak makes me want to kill myself.

So, right out of the gate, the Romulans being refugees makes no fucking sense. The Romulan Star Empire was a vast and branching empire that was the Federation's only real threat in a post Dominion War galaxy. The Romulan Star Empire entered the Dominion War at the tail end of it, which meant that they lost very little in the way of ships and manpower compared to everyone else. The only reason why the Federation was still a match for the Romulans after the Dominion War was due to some technological advantages and being considerably larger and more vast than the Romulan Empire. Post-war, it's likely that the Federation had more ships than the Romulans did. We also saw that Starfleet began to seriously modernize and advance as evidenced in First Contact and Nemesis.

The idea that the Romulan Empire would come to the Federation for help when their sun was going to go supernova is absolute bullshit. Also, the star being close to a super nova is likely something they would detect and evacuation of Romulus and even Remus would likely have been underway for decades. Even if this was a sudden thing, the loss of the entire system wouldn't have been a crippling blow to the empire the way its portrayed in the TV show. It's a vast Star Empire. The name even suggests this. Again we have writers and show runners that know nothing of their source material.

The Federation building an armada of ships to evacuate Romulus makes no damn sense and even if it did, why would they be dicks to the Romulans after a bunch of androids attacked Utopia Planetia? It makes zero sense. An intergalactic government that's founded by and made up of dozens of species becoming isolationist and xenophobic makes no sense. Their attitude towards surviving Romulans makes no sense.

Then there is the crap about Data's daughters. What the hell? How can you clone everything he was off the equivalent of a single neuron. It would be like making a copy of me based on a single cell and that cell containing all my memories and experiences. It's bullshit and makes no sense like most of the rest of this plot. Lastly, watching Data's daughter clone thing talk to her diverse boyfriend was enough to make we want to grab a sword off my wall and fall on the point ear first so I'd never have to hear talk like that again. Star Trek is supposed to be set in the future. Why would these people speak like teenagers or millennials do today? Star Trek characters have always spoken in a way that we can understand, but was always a bit different than we do today. Common sayings and vernacular of the time the shows aired has never been in the dialog of any Star Trek show outside of cases where time travel was used as a plot device.

Picard also seems a bit off to me. He seems more like Patrick Stewart and less like Jean-Luc Picard. It could certainly be worse, but it could have been a lot better.

I agree with most of this except the Millennial commentary, not sure I saw that or even relate (not to mention Millennials aren't children but approaching 40 yrs old now). The biggest issues I had as you mentioned that it made no sense for Starfleet to rescue the Romulans, they aren't Syrian refugees (despite the writers trying to make that connection) but rather masters of a vast empire that spans several hundred planets. Even if Romulus died out, they likely had hundreds of colonies elsewhere and would easily survive this kind of disaster, just like the Federation would continue w/out Earth or humans for that matter. Them trying to liken Data's fragmented neuropathway to a live cell and cloning it (do they have PCR now for tech?) + retrieving his memory/personality all from that is the biggest BS I ever heard, technobabble or not. Data's daughter makes no sense either since he had trouble creating an iteration more advanced than himself yet Maddox or whoever managed to make one that perfectly resembles a human and even come in pairs (why?). Also, why would synthetics all of the sudden go rogue? Talk about a lazy copy of BSG's overarching story. In addition, the Federation always had a dark side to it, Section 31 anyone?

They're obviously focused on trying to make a connection to present day politics but rather than be subtle with it, they take a hammer and bludgeon you and expect you not to think of the obvious plot holes and lack of logic/reasoning behind what they're telling us. That said, I still think Picard is a lot better than Discovery and has some potential as long as they don't shove too much woke politics in our face.

 

[Susquehannock]

So, is everything going to be in Jar Jar Abrams' dystopian Kelvin timeline from now on, or whatever? To me, and so many others, the loss of Utopian vision, where Mankind and society as a whole had gone a long way to improve itself is a major reason Trek has lost it's way.

 

[PeaKr]

Dan perfectly outlines the problems with the new Trek shows and it's why 20 or even 50 years from now people won't be watching Discovery but they'll still be watching TOS, TNG and DS9.

 

[Dan_D]

I agree with most of this except the Millennial commentary, not sure I saw that or even relate (not to mention Millennials aren't children but approaching 40 yrs old now). The biggest issues I had as you mentioned that it made no sense for Starfleet to rescue the Romulans, they aren't Syrian refugees (despite the writers trying to make that connection) but rather masters of a vast empire that spans several hundred planets. Even if Romulus died out, they likely had hundreds of colonies elsewhere and would easily survive this kind of disaster, just like the Federation would continue w/out Earth or humans for that matter. Them trying to liken Data's fragmented neuropathway to a live cell and cloning it (do they have PCR now for tech?) + retrieving his memory/personality all from that is the biggest BS I ever heard, technobabble or not. Data's daughter makes no sense either since he had trouble creating an iteration more advanced than himself yet Maddox or whoever managed to make one that perfectly resembles a human and even come in pairs (why?). Also, why would synthetics all of the sudden go rogue? Talk about a lazy copy of BSG's overarching story. In addition, the Federation always had a dark side to it, Section 31 anyone?

They're obviously focused on trying to make a connection to present day politics but rather than be subtle with it, they take a hammer and bludgeon you and expect you not to think of the obvious plot holes and lack of logic/reasoning behind what they're telling us. That said, I still think Picard is a lot better than Discovery and has some potential as long as they don't shove too much woke politics in our face.

Yeah, the millennial speak is in there. It bothered me because it's so obvious and so out of place for a Star Trek show. Beyond that, I have a couple of thoughts.

While Section 31 is in the lore as always having been part of the Federation, this was not originally the case. It never existed prior to DS9. it was NEVER part of Gene Roddenberry's vision of Star Trek. It's a retcon. However, the genius of it was that Section 31's existence was never confirmed in DS9 at all. The only operative we ever saw was Sloan. He specifically stated that it had no headquarters, no files, no actual foot print to speak of. He did say that there were others like him, but that could have been a red herring. Nothing Sloan ever said was confirmed as being true. The viewer is left to decide whether or not anything he ever said was true or false. Of course we tend to think of Sloan's statements as being factual given that in Enterprise and other shows, Section 31's existence is verified or explored further. However, as originally presented, its existence was dubious at best. I think that presented in this way, Gene Roddenberry might have been fine with it in the context we saw of it in DS9.

All of the Federation's darker elements generally came about after Gene Roddenberry's death. Star Trek VI was the last thing he saw in the franchise. Keep in mind that while extremely popular, he never liked Star Trek II because it was so dark and Starfleet was more militaristic. He likely had the same issue with Star Trek VI given that it was the same director. He supposedly gave Deep Space Nine his blessing, but he never lived to see a single episode of it air. More to the point, Section 31, the Dominion War, and those darker aspects of Star Trek were never part of his vision for the franchise. That said, I think Roddenberry was always too optimistic and that optimism is what set Star Trek apart from every other franchise that was largely dystopian.

That said, Star Trek going darker in the TNG and DS9 era was different than how its done now. There was always optimism in TNG and DS9. Corrupt Starfleet or other officials were always brought to justice and people always recognized the moral error in their ways even if it took them a moment to come around. Even shit bags like Admiral Leyton (DS9) who tried to take over the Federation in a coup, always did what they did for the right reason even if their solutions were completely and totally immoral.

Also remember that Voyager and Enterprise weren't Roddenberry's either. The further we get from TNG, the less Roddenberry's influence we see in the franchise. Despite all my disdain for Voyager and Enterprise, at some level they still understood what Star Trek was about. My issues weren't with their concepts or basic premise but rather the quality and consistency of the writing. Star Trek in this era was in decline as proven by the ratings at the time. At that point Star Trek was pretty stale and they just weren't doing anything new with it.

Unfortunately, in order to be more accessible to the masses, post-JJ Abrams Star Trek is basically braindead, thoughtless action with bad writing and ultimately, without the Star Trek name no one would give a shit about it. It's mediocre science fiction at best. Judged by a non-Star Trek standard, one might be fine with it as some people are now. But when measured against the more cerebral and grounded Star Trek of the past, nothing I've seen since Enterprise went off the air measures up.

 

[Derangel]

It's not solid. It's better than Discovery and shows some potential, but it has a number of flaws. Not the least of which is that it's got a convoluted plot with way too much going on that makes very little sense if you think about it in the slightest.

So, here we go:

Spoiler: The plot is derivative, the Romulan situation, is dumb as fuck. The Federation isn't the Federation anymore, and millennial speak makes me want to kill myself.

So, right out of the gate, the Romulans being refugees makes no fucking sense. The Romulan Star Empire was a vast and branching empire that was the Federation's only real threat in a post Dominion War galaxy. The Romulan Star Empire entered the Dominion War at the tail end of it, which meant that they lost very little in the way of ships and manpower compared to everyone else. The only reason why the Federation was still a match for the Romulans after the Dominion War was due to some technological advantages and being considerably larger and more vast than the Romulan Empire. Post-war, it's likely that the Federation had more ships than the Romulans did. We also saw that Starfleet began to seriously modernize and advance as evidenced in First Contact and Nemesis.

The idea that the Romulan Empire would come to the Federation for help when their sun was going to go supernova is absolute bullshit. Also, the star being close to a super nova is likely something they would detect and evacuation of Romulus and even Remus would likely have been underway for decades. Even if this was a sudden thing, the loss of the entire system wouldn't have been a crippling blow to the empire the way its portrayed in the TV show. It's a vast Star Empire. The name even suggests this. Again we have writers and show runners that know nothing of their source material.

The Federation building an armada of ships to evacuate Romulus makes no damn sense and even if it did, why would they be dicks to the Romulans after a bunch of androids attacked Utopia Planetia? It makes zero sense. An intergalactic government that's founded by and made up of dozens of species becoming isolationist and xenophobic makes no sense. Their attitude towards surviving Romulans makes no sense.

Then there is the crap about Data's daughters. What the hell? How can you clone everything he was off the equivalent of a single neuron. It would be like making a copy of me based on a single cell and that cell containing all my memories and experiences. It's bullshit and makes no sense like most of the rest of this plot. Lastly, watching Data's daughter clone thing talk to her diverse boyfriend was enough to make we want to grab a sword off my wall and fall on the point ear first so I'd never have to hear talk like that again. Star Trek is supposed to be set in the future. Why would these people speak like teenagers or millennials do today? Star Trek characters have always spoken in a way that we can understand, but was always a bit different than we do today. Common sayings and vernacular of the time the shows aired has never been in the dialog of any Star Trek show outside of cases where time travel was used as a plot device.

Picard also seems a bit off to me. He seems more like Patrick Stewart and less like Jean-Luc Picard. It could certainly be worse, but it could have been a lot better.

Spoiler

I think you are taking Picard's Federation line a bit too much at face value. The Federation had already changed drastically by the time of DS9 and the Dominion War saw a lot of changes to how it operates. Picard's line is more in reference to Starfleet's reaction to the attack then anything else. As for so-called "Millennial Speak", I really didn't notice it.

The supernova didn't just destroy one star system. This is the same supernova that resulted in the time travel at the start of Abrams 2009 reboot. It didn't just destroy a single planet or single star system. The only real change between this and 09 is that they're retconning that Spock was the only one helping.

Why would it not make sense for the Star Empire to ask for help? Remember Nemesis. The movie ended with the idea that the Romulans and the Federation could get along. The supernova happened in 2387, six years after Nemesis.

Did you miss the fact that the synths attacked the very place the rescue fleet was being built? The attack also ignited Mar's entire atmosphere. So we can assume every colony on the planet was destroyed or damaged in some way due to that. There's nothing to indicate that the entire Federation is xenophobic or isolationist, just that they pulled back from the rescue after over 90,000 people were killed.

So, you're mad that one of the main characters of the episode was dating a black man? Do you realize how racist that sounds? It sounds more like you went into the series intending to despise it and are looking for every single tiny thing to be mad about instead of leaving your mind open.

You are really hung up on the whole "Millennial speak" bullshit. Prior Trek series have all taken place under the basis of MILITARY OPERATIONS. Military dialog is more formal, it would be natural for non-military personal to speak differently and use different terminology. And again, I never really took note of the dialog feeling off. Most of it just sounded like people talking, perfectly understandable. The actual quality of some of the dialog wasn't great, but that's a different problem altogether.

I don't entirely disagree on the Picard stuff. His acting is great, but it does seem to lean a bit away from Picard as we last saw him. Though, that could also be partly because this Picard is a lot older and more "beaten down" by time and his perceived failures. We'll see if he gets back towards being more like old Picard as the season goes along. Of course, it could also just be because it's been 17 years since he last played Picard for any extended period and Stewart is simply having a hard time fully getting back to that point. He is 79 years old so that would be understandable.

My big problems with the episode, and the reason I call it "solid" or saying it's good or great are:

It relies way too much on action bits and neither of the fight scenes are well directed. The director has a good eye for everything else, but her action direction in this episode was a mess. It worries me that she's directing the next two episodes as well.

I felt the episode sets up some interesting hooks and ideas, but really doesn't go far enough with any of them. The neuron bit you mentioned is a good example. They just kind of throw it out there and expect the audience to go "oh, okay", but I feel that needs more explanation. It's not quite Voyager level technobabble nonsense, but it's close.

Dahj's death was incredibly poorly done, as was the very rushed explanation for why no one saw her. In fact, I feel like a lot of stuff with Dahj wasn't great. They rushed her story too much, it really should have extended over to the next episode. The pacing for her scenes was always at odds with the more slow burn feel of Picard's.

 

[Dan_D]

Spoiler: Response to the above contains spoilers.

Spoiler

I think you are taking Picard's Federation line a bit too much at face value. The Federation had already changed drastically by the time of DS9 and the Dominion War saw a lot of changes to how it operates. Picard's line is more in reference to Starfleet's reaction to the attack then anything else. As for so-called "Millennial Speak", I really didn't notice it.

Spoiler

You didn't notice it, but I did. It's stupid.

The supernova didn't just destroy one star system. This is the same supernova that resulted in the time travel at the start of Abrams 2009 reboot. It didn't just destroy a single planet or single star system. The only real change between this and 09 is that they're retconning that Spock was the only one helping.

Even if the super nova destroyed adjacent star systems, which I don't really buy necessarily as they are usually quite far apart and even if they aren't, near by systems aren't necessarily inhabitable. Even so, losing four or five inhabited star systems still doesn't change the fact that this is an empire that spans a great deal of star systems with billions, if not more people living in it. This wouldn't be such a crippling blow that the Romulans would all of the sudden be like Syrian refugees. I'm sorry but that just doesn't make sense.

Why would it not make sense for the Star Empire to ask for help? Remember Nemesis. The movie ended with the idea that the Romulans and the Federation could get along. The supernova happened in 2387, six years after Nemesis.

I shall clarify. It isn't that it doesn't make sense to ask for help. It doesn't make sense that the Romulans would need Starfleet to build 10,000 ships and do all the heavy lifting. The Romulan Star Empire is again, vast and they are just as capable of building starships as the Federation is. The Romulans also strike me as being a culture that wouldn't ask for help in the first place and even if they did, I doubt that they'd ask Starfleet and the Federation to flat out save them.

Did you miss the fact that the synths attacked the very place the rescue fleet was being built? The attack also ignited Mar's entire atmosphere. So we can assume every colony on the planet was destroyed or damaged in some way due to that. There's nothing to indicate that the entire Federation is xenophobic or isolationist, just that they pulled back from the rescue after over 90,000 people were killed.

No, I didn't. It also makes sense that the Federation would back off from any sort of rescue as their armada and their ship construction capacity would have been drastically reduced. I'd also point out that the shipyards being so vulnerable makes less sense in a post-Dominion War era Starfleet that's felt the pains of inadequate defenses more than once. The first assault by the Borg and the Breen attack on Starfleet headquarters are specific examples of this. The only time Earth is attacked and not drastically under defended was when the Borg attacked the second time and a Starfleet armada was present to deal with it. Though oddly, this is between the two incidents I mentioned earlier, but the Breen attack is more of a strategic mistake than anything. The idea that Mars would be so vulnerable just doesn't make sense to me.

So, you're mad that one of the main characters of the episode was dating a black man?

That's a stretch and I said nothing of the kind. Calling him "Diverse male boyfriend" is a description for an otherwise forgettable character. I have no idea what his name was. I'm also pointing out that diversity in film and TV shows is basically the new affirmative action. I'm not suggesting, nor did I indicate or mean that I'm upset about a black alien dude dating some non-white or whatever the hell she is woman. I don't care about that.

Do you realize how racist that sounds?

No. That's you jumping to conclusions about something I said. You took it the wrong way.

It sounds more like you went into the series intending to despise it and are looking for every single tiny thing to be mad about instead of leaving your mind open.

I've got an open mind. It's just not so open that I'll accept any badly written and contrived bullshit.

You are really hung up on the whole "Millennial speak" bullshit. Prior Trek series have all taken place under the basis of MILITARY OPERATIONS. Military dialog is more formal, it would be natural for non-military personal to speak differently and use different terminology. And again, I never really took note of the dialog feeling off. Most of it just sounded like people talking, perfectly understandable. The actual quality of some of the dialog wasn't great, but that's a different problem altogether.

Starfleet wasn't primarily a military organization in TNG, and again, we've seen plenty of people outside of Starfleet talk in the earlier Trek series. Try again.

I don't entirely disagree on the Picard stuff. His acting is great, but it does seem to lean a bit away from Picard as we last saw him. Though, that could also be partly because this Picard is a lot older and more "beaten down" by time and his perceived failures. We'll see if he gets back towards being more like old Picard as the season goes along. Of course, it could also just be because it's been 17 years since he last played Picard for any extended period and Stewart is simply having a hard time fully getting back to that point. He is 79 years old so that would be understandable.

I can see that to an extent. But, I tend to think he's a better actor than that and such mistakes or failings are unlikely. I think it has more to do with Patrick Stewart having some creative control here more than anything.

My big problems with the episode, and the reason I call it "solid" or saying it's good or great are:

It relies way too much on action bits and neither of the fight scenes are well directed. The director has a good eye for everything else, but her action direction in this episode was a mess. It worries me that she's directing the next two episodes as well.

I felt the episode sets up some interesting hooks and ideas, but really doesn't go far enough with any of them. The neuron bit you mentioned is a good example. They just kind of throw it out there and expect the audience to go "oh, okay", but I feel that needs more explanation. It's not quite Voyager level technobabble nonsense, but it's close.

All valid points that I agree with. The part about the neuron is just bullshit. I don't know how you could possibly explain that. They could have written it where they pulled more from B4 and that Data's memories might have been copied over, but B4 wasn't sophisticated enough to utilize them and that he wasn't Data, despite the memory transfer.

Dahj's death was incredibly poorly done, as was the very rushed explanation for why no one saw her. In fact, I feel like a lot of stuff with Dahj wasn't great. They rushed her story too much, it really should have extended over to the next episode. The pacing for her scenes was always at odds with the more slow burn feel of Picard's.

Agreed.

 

[Merc1138]

Back to the actual shows themselves...

ST has always had politics in it. Just not this damn hamfisted. It's so bad that it basically retcons decades of established fiction in the process and is turning starfleet more into the 40k imperium of man than anything else.

Hate the filthy xenos? Check.
Hate the abominable intellegence beings? Check.
Constantly have one catastrophe after another? Check.
Have a damn emperor of mankind? Thanks to STD bringing one over from the mirror universe, check.

Current Star Trek has more in common with the grimderp of the 40k universe than it had anything to do with roddenberry's vision or even that of the people after him, and it fucking sucks. There's enough other gritty and dark scifi IP out there, I don't want star trek to go from space being the final frontier, to only being war in the 41st millenium.

And that's ignoring all of the weird continuity crap. Hell, even the pseudo science of star trek is already broken. The romulan sun just went supernova, without becoming a red giant first? Ok. Even though it was already established previously in ST that this was detectable in advance. Apparently phasers with stun don't exist? Ok, so instead of beaming in with stun devices while having the element of surprise, it's knives and bags soaked in chloroform? If Picard was busy saving the filthy romulan xenos, then why does fox ne... I mean the Federation News Network(seriously?) blame him for the martian atmosphere igniting? Why did the shipyard that was in orbit get brought down to the surface of Mars? Why did starfleet allow the martian atmosphere to get filled with a flammable gas? If this flammable gas was so energy dense that it's still on fire 15 years later, why didn't we harvest it for anything else? Why would starfleet have allowed such a dangerous situation to even occur? And since when did Picard ever have a relationship with Data like portrayed by this show? I sure as hell don't remember that. He was always professional with Data sure, but Data was friends with basically everyone else but Picard.

 

[Crosshairs]

Lets get back on topic

 

[Dan_D]

Back to the actual shows themselves...

ST has always had politics in it. Just not this damn hamfisted. It's so bad that it basically retcons decades of established fiction in the process and is turning starfleet more into the 40k imperium of man than anything else.

This has largely been my point.

Hate the filthy xenos? Check.
Hate the abominable intellegence beings? Check.
Constantly have one catastrophe after another? Check.
Have a damn emperor of mankind? Thanks to STD bringing one over from the mirror universe, check.

Current Star Trek has more in common with the grimderp of the 40k universe than it had anything to do with roddenberry's vision or even that of the people after him, and it fucking sucks. There's enough other gritty and dark scifi IP out there, I don't want star trek to go from space being the final frontier, to only being war in the 41st millenium.

Exactly. I never fully bought into Gene Roddenberry's vision of the perfect utopia, but I believe that striving to achieve it is worth while. I also enjoyed the different take on science fiction compared to everything else. Now, Star Trek is just like everything else. That might be OK, were it done competently. Space shroom drives, intergalactic telepathy among Vulcans and a disregard for cannon don't do the new shows any favors.

And that's ignoring all of the weird continuity crap. Hell, even the pseudo science of star trek is already broken. The romulan sun just went supernova, without becoming a red giant first? Ok. Even though it was already established previously in ST that this was detectable in advance. Apparently phasers with stun don't exist? Ok, so instead of beaming in with stun devices while having the element of surprise, it's knives and bags soaked in chloroform? If Picard was busy saving the filthy romulan xenos, then why does fox ne... I mean the Federation News Network(seriously?) blame him for the martian atmosphere igniting? Why did the shipyard that was in orbit get brought down to the surface of Mars? Why did starfleet allow the martian atmosphere to get filled with a flammable gas? If this flammable gas was so energy dense that it's still on fire 15 years later, why didn't we harvest it for anything else? Why would starfleet have allowed such a dangerous situation to even occur? And since when did Picard ever have a relationship with Data like portrayed by this show? I sure as hell don't remember that. He was always professional with Data sure, but Data was friends with basically everyone else but Picard.

Agreed. Although, I think Picard was friendlier with Data than that, I never saw it as the deep friendship this show seems to think it was.

 

[Ranulfo]

Well to be fair, Picard and Data did sing opera together. They were at the start of Insurrection if I remember right. Coincidentally, the only Trek movie I've almost walked out on in the first 15 minutes. Still regret staying.

 

[Dan_D]

Well to be fair, Picard and Data did sing opera together. They were at the start of Insurrection if I remember right. Coincidentally, the only Trek movie I've almost walked out on in the first 15 minutes. Still regret staying.

They did seem to grow closer in the films. Plus, Picard helped data with his acting on the Holodeck and other things. So maybe there is some foundation for it. In any case, its obviously Picard's take on their relationship. It's hard for that to be wrong as its not really out of character. It's also possible that Jean-Luc is somewhat sentimental in his old age. Dreams of the Enterprise D, data, etc. would support that to an extent. In any case, that's not my real problem with the show thus far. It's really down to the Romulan situation being retarded and inconsistent with what we know of them that bothers me more than anything. That said, I don't hate the show. There is some potential here if they can flesh out some of the ideas presented in the premiere episode.

Once again, while I have hope for this show in some capacity, I've lost all hope for Discovery. The fact that Picard connects to both the reboot films and Discovery is disturbing as both are a shit sandwich.

 

[Susquehannock]

Well to be fair, Picard and Data did sing opera together. They were at the start of Insurrection if I remember right. Coincidentally, the only Trek movie I've almost walked out on in the first 15 minutes. Still regret staying.

Yeah, Insurrection was atrocious. Felt like a cheesy spin-off. Glad I did not pay to see it in theater. To be honest, I wish none of the TNG films had been made. With possible exception of First Contact. Even then I dislike what they did to the Borg after that Hugh incident. All down hill from there.

[edit]
Switching between these two I find it amusing the most Trek Show is not Star Trek.

 

[Meeho]

They did seem to grow closer in the films. Plus, Picard helped data with his acting on the Holodeck and other things. So maybe there is some foundation for it. In any case, its obviously Picard's take on their relationship. It's hard for that to be wrong as its not really out of character. It's also possible that Jean-Luc is somewhat sentimental in his old age. Dreams of the Enterprise D, data, etc. would support that to an extent. In any case, that's not my real problem with the show thus far. It's really down to the Romulan situation being retarded and inconsistent with what we know of them that bothers me more than anything. That said, I don't hate the show. There is some potential here if they can flesh out some of the ideas presented in the premiere episode.

Once again, while I have hope for this show in some capacity, I've lost all hope for Discovery. The fact that Picard connects to both the reboot films and Discovery is disturbing as both are a shit sandwich.

The discussion is academic, anyway, since neither sTP nor STD are in the Star Trek canon, but a hollow fork by the lowest Hollywood waste.

 

[1_rick]

I never saw it as the deep friendship this show seems to think it was.

Well, this show is called Picard, and not LaForge.

They did seem to grow closer in the films.

While that's true, the painting was said to be 30 years old, which is well before the movies. But remember, we were seeing dreams in the episode. Dreams don't always follow reality, so Picard's dream could be changing the depth of the relationship at the time the events of the dream would've taken place, if they were real. (Since the supernova and attack on Mars took place after the movies, Data couldn't have been present with Picard when Mars blew up...not to mention that the Enterprise D was also scrap at that point in time.)

Plus, Picard does tend to get a little overexcited in this kind of situation, when there's a mystery to solve.

 

[Merc1138]

Agreed. Although, I think Picard was friendlier with Data than that, I never saw it as the deep friendship this show seems to think it was.

But he wasn't though. The question the reporter asked about his faith in Data... holy crap the amount of times Data caused problems, nevermind the ones with Lore being involved. And yes, he was friendlier with Data in the movies, but there was more to TNG than the movies, which were honestly some of the worst parts of TNG besides season 1. Yes it was a little more than simply professional considering he served with him on the enterprise for years, but it's almost to the point where they want the viewer to think he was treated like a family member or something when he definitely wasn't.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Yeah, Insurrection was atrocious. Felt like a cheesy spin-off. Glad I did not pay to see it in theater. To be honest, I wish none of the TNG films had been made. With possible exception of First Contact. Even then I dislike what they did to the Borg after that Hugh incident. All down hill from there.

[edit]
Switching between these two I find it amusing the most Trek Show is not Star Trek.

View attachment 219012

Ugh yeah. The last two films in the franchise were difficult to sit through.

I think they had just run out of ideas.

 

[BlueLineSwinger]

Ugh yeah. The last two films in the franchise were difficult to sit through.

I think they had just run out of ideas.

I always felt Insurrection was fine if thought of as a season seven two-parter (it's much better than many episodes that season, such as "Data Goes All Jim Carrey" or "Crusher Screws a Candle").''

Nemesis, agreed, is a friggin' mess.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

Ugh yeah. The last two films in the franchise were difficult to sit through.

I think they had just run out of ideas.

I think they bit off more than they could chew with DS9/Voyager and the TNG films in concurrent development. You can see the writing falling apart in TNG season 7.

 

[bonehead123]

I have always enjoyed all Star Trek shows & movies, but the 2 things that I absolutely can NOT stand about disco is that god-awful fuggly twit who plays micheal, and the fact that almost every episode is 99.9% about her & how she ALWAYS tries to sound intelligent but fails, or worse, tries to sound blissfully ignorant and ALSO fails at that equally as well...

Out of all the actresses out there in bollywood, surely they could have chosen one that is not only way more attractive, but also who knows the difference between dumb, dumber, and dumberest....

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

I have always enjoyed all Star Trek shows & movies, but the 2 things that I absolutely can NOT stand about disco is that god-awful fuggly twit who plays micheal, and the fact that almost every episode is 99.9% about her & how she ALWAYS tries to sound intelligent but fails, or worse, tries to sound blissfully ignorant and ALSO fails at that equally as well...

Out of all the actresses out there in bollywood, surely they could have chosen one that is not only way more attractive, but also who knows the difference between dumb, dumber, and dumberest....

I have no problem with the actress. I don't find her ugly, but even if I did, this isn't Baywatch, and women are not there to be eye candy.

I find the writing for her part to be pretty bad though.

Trek used to always be about a crew, collaborating together towards a common goal. Sure, some episodes may have zoomed in on the lives of individual characters, but there was never really a "leading role". The show was about them all equally. Discovery changes this dynamic and is more about telling the Michael Burnham story. That bothers me a little bit. A star trek show is not supposed to have a single starring role.

 

[chameleoneel]

It's 2020.

Homosexuality IS normal. This is not an agenda. It's just fact. If you find it bothersome or indicative of an agenda, I suggest maybe you look inward.



Again, Star Trek was always a show featuring diversity.

View attachment 218809

Besides, the captain (Pike) is still a white male.

I'll agree, Burnham's status as a wunderkind is a little bit annoying but I chuck that up to poor writing more than an agenda of any kind.

I mean, if you had a wunderkind written into the script, and just took a random race/gender generator of world population, chances are that character would be female and not white. Why not? These are people supposedly representing the planet. Most of the planet is not white, and males are a slight minority.

Tilly is annoying as fuck. I'm not sure they are doing women any favors by casting her in that role.

I just dont see it.

I mean, if this crew were to be an accurate representation of world population as it looks today, it would look something like this:

View attachment 218811

So, even as it stands, the cast of the show overrepresents white characters, compared to a world demographic breakdown. That's not some sort of agenda. It's just demographics.

Claiming the show has a liberal agenda just because it happens to feature a strong black woman as a lead, is just as silly as those who call shows with strong white male leads chauvinistic and anti-woman.

I suggest stop trying to see some sort of conspiracy everywhere, chill the fuck out and just enjoy a show.

The makers of this and many other shows have to make them believable to the audience. A modern audience doesn't find a show believable if it does not match the world they are in, which is multiracial, contains gay people, and women in leadership roles. If that's not what your life and world are like where you live, then you are increasingly in the minority, and you can't expect them to make a show to cater to your flawed perception of what the world looks like.

And when you look at that original Star Trek cast: George Takei (actor who plays Hikaru Sulu) is Gay. If Sulu would also have been written as gay, we might be well beyond the adjustment period we are in, now.

 

[Derangel]

And when you look at that original Star Trek cast: George Takei (actor who plays Hikaru Sulu) is Gay. If Sulu would also have been written as gay, we might be well beyond the adjustment period we are in, now.

Takei wasn’t out at the time but he did broach the subject of doing a story about gay rights to Roddenberry. Roddenberry said it was an important issue and he’d like to do an episode but the show would have been canceled if he had. So he didn’t in favor of getting the rest of his message across. For all the controversy TOS stirred up in its original run, doing a gay positive episode probably would have been its most controversial moment.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Takei wasn’t out at the time but he did broach the subject of doing a story about gay rights to Roddenberry. Roddenberry said it was an important issue and he’d like to do an episode but the show would have been canceled if he had. So he didn’t in favor of getting the rest of his message across. For all the controversy TOS stirred up in its original run, doing a gay positive episode probably would have been its most controversial moment.

Should have saved it for the last episode

Can't cancel something that's off the air

 

[nilepez]

It took you one paragraph to make yourself look like a homophobe, racist, and a sexist.

It appears you’ve been living in the distant past because homosexuality is normal. It doesn’t take Hollywood putting a homosexual couple in a show to normalize it. If it bothers you to watch two men kissing but not a man and a woman then you need to re-evaluate your priorities about how you judge individuals.

Star Trek has always had a diverse cast. Why is it suddenly a problem that a black woman is in a leading role instead of a small side role?

It’s not even the first time a woman has had a lead role in Star Trek. Voyager had female lead many years ago.

You blame it on the left for adding in things that you consider taboo but maybe you should blame the far right for considering inconsequential stuff to be taboo.

He could have saved time by just saying something about SJW, thought i guess one could

Ugh yeah. The last two films in the franchise were difficult to sit through.

I think they had just run out of ideas.

There was exactly 1 good TNG movie: First Contact. Everything ranged from mediocre to atrocious. Everyone shits on JJ Abrams, but aside from First Contact & TNG itself (which I believe was run by Pillar) everything that Berman touched, turned to dirt. I firmly believe the only reason DS9 was good is because Berman was working on TNG, movies and Voyager.

I may be in the minority, but I'll take the JJ Trek over Berman's (aside from those 2 exceptions) any day of the week. OTOH, I'll take the Behr/RD moore DS9 over pretty much everything else in the trek universe.

 

[nilepez]

Should have saved it for the last episode

Can't cancel something that's off the air

View attachment 219088

It wouldn't have been aired in at least half the country. Even the interracial kiss was preempted in some markets. For the most part, I really don't recall seeing much of any gay character stories on TV until Ellen came out (which got her cancelled) and then Will And Grace. There were some things before that (e.g. Ross's ex wife on Friends), but I don't think any major characters or shows that dealt with it regularly.

 

[illli]

As someone mentioned above, I do have an issue with today's vernacular being used hundreds of years in the future where these stories take place. Theres just no way someone would be talking using bro/dude/cool/far out/awesome etc. I have see that in discovery (but there are greater problems, like the klingons not looking/talking/acting like klingons). I have seen that in the mandalorian (where the two stormtroopers are casually talking and one says oh my god), and now I have seen it in picard... it just takes me out of the futuristic world they are trying to create.

 

[Derangel]

It wouldn't have been aired in at least half the country. Even the interracial kiss was preempted in some markets. For the most part, I really don't recall seeing much of any gay character stories on TV until Ellen came out (which got her cancelled) and then Will And Grace. There were some things before that (e.g. Ross's ex wife on Friends), but I don't think any major characters or shows that dealt with it regularly.

There weren't many main characters, but a lot of shows have tried to touch on it in different ways. Blanch's brother in Golden Girls, Maude had a couple episodes dealing with homosexuality, Barney Miller had semi-regular gay couple, but there was absolutely nothing that I could find in the 60s. 70s was really when some shows (mostly sitcoms) felt comfortable experimenting with gay characters. It really wasn't until Ellen, Friends, and Will & Grace where things changed drastically. There is no way Trek could have got away with it in the 60s.

Had things gone different, TNG could have been the trend setter. Roddenberry said he had plans to introduce a gay character in the show's 5th season. However, after his death those plans were discarded.

 

[M76]

He could have saved time by just saying something about SJW, thought i guess one could

There was exactly 1 good TNG movie: First Contact. Everything ranged from mediocre to atrocious. Everyone shits on JJ Abrams, but aside from First Contact & TNG itself (which I believe was run by Pillar) everything that Berman touched, turned to dirt. I firmly believe the only reason DS9 was good is because Berman was working on TNG, movies and Voyager.

I may be in the minority, but I'll take the JJ Trek over Berman's (aside from those 2 exceptions) any day of the week. OTOH, I'll take the Behr/RD moore DS9 over pretty much everything else in the trek universe.

I liked all the TNG movies except for Nemesis. And Nemesis could've been good too, if they didn't leave all the fanservice on the editing room floor.

 

[chameleoneel]

It wouldn't have been aired in at least half the country. Even the interracial kiss was preempted in some markets. For the most part, I really don't recall seeing much of any gay character stories on TV until Ellen came out (which got her cancelled) and then Will And Grace. There were some things before that (e.g. Ross's ex wife on Friends), but I don't think any major characters or shows that dealt with it regularly.

Yeah its pretty crazy that ~ 25 years ago, Ellen's popular show was cancelled, simply because she came out. And now, she's one of the darling's of mainstream TV.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

As someone mentioned above, I do have an issue with today's vernacular being used hundreds of years in the future where these stories take place. Theres just no way someone would be talking using bro/dude/cool/far out/awesome etc. I have see that in discovery (but there are greater problems, like the klingons not looking/talking/acting like klingons). I have seen that in the mandalorian (where the two stormtroopers are casually talking and one says oh my god), and now I have seen it in picard... it just takes me out of the futuristic world they are trying to create.

It didn't jump out at me in Picard.

I did have a huge issue with how they changed the Klingons in Discovery though.

 

[Darunion]

As someone mentioned above, I do have an issue with today's vernacular being used hundreds of years in the future where these stories take place. Theres just no way someone would be talking using bro/dude/cool/far out/awesome etc. I have see that in discovery (but there are greater problems, like the klingons not looking/talking/acting like klingons). I have seen that in the mandalorian (where the two stormtroopers are casually talking and one says oh my god), and now I have seen it in picard... it just takes me out of the futuristic world they are trying to create.

Another few hundred years of watering down languages with slang, what would you expect us to sound like? Take what our language has changed from in the last few hundred years and fast forward, we will probably only communicate with grunts and snorts by then.

 

[Derangel]

As someone mentioned above, I do have an issue with today's vernacular being used hundreds of years in the future where these stories take place. Theres just no way someone would be talking using bro/dude/cool/far out/awesome etc. I have see that in discovery (but there are greater problems, like the klingons not looking/talking/acting like klingons). I have seen that in the mandalorian (where the two stormtroopers are casually talking and one says oh my god), and now I have seen it in picard... it just takes me out of the futuristic world they are trying to create.

Outside of the incredibly formal language used in past Trek series (which would sound far more off and stilted to modern viewers) or creating brand new slang (which almost always sounds incredibly dumb) I'm not really sure what options they have.

I think Mando gets away with it in that scene simply because those two Storm Troopers are supposed to be morons and their dialog adds to it. It also helps that Star Wars is neither futuristic nor sci-fi. It's space fantasy set "a long time ago" so they can play with language and slang use.

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

It took you one paragraph to make yourself look like a homophobe, racist, and a sexist.

It appears you’ve been living in the distant past because homosexuality is normal. It doesn’t take Hollywood putting a homosexual couple in a show to normalize it. If it bothers you to watch two men kissing but not a man and a woman then you need to re-evaluate your priorities about how you judge individuals.

Star Trek has always had a diverse cast. Why is it suddenly a problem that a black woman is in a leading role instead of a small side role?

It’s not even the first time a woman has had a lead role in Star Trek. Voyager had female lead many years ago.

You blame it on the left for adding in things that you consider taboo but maybe you should blame the far right for considering inconsequential stuff to be taboo.

no one cares who is in the lead role, we care about the storytelling and it just plain sucks in Discovery...

 

[IdiotInCharge]

I did have a huge issue with how they changed the Klingons in Discovery though.

We should be expecting a more 'traditional' look in Season 3, I think...

 

[IdiotInCharge]

creating brand new slang (which almost always sounds incredibly dumb)

The Expanse does a good job of this, yet it's plain to me that it would be off-putting for more general audiences.

I don't think it's something you can win; the show, as most shows, will remain 'dated'.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

He could have saved time by just saying something about SJW, thought i guess one could

There was exactly 1 good TNG movie: First Contact. Everything ranged from mediocre to atrocious. Everyone shits on JJ Abrams, but aside from First Contact & TNG itself (which I believe was run by Pillar) everything that Berman touched, turned to dirt. I firmly believe the only reason DS9 was good is because Berman was working on TNG, movies and Voyager.

I may be in the minority, but I'll take the JJ Trek over Berman's (aside from those 2 exceptions) any day of the week. OTOH, I'll take the Behr/RD moore DS9 over pretty much everything else in the trek universe.

I remember enjoying Generations too, but I mostly agree. Generations wasn't a great film, but it had a lot of fan favorite bits in it that made it worth watching. (Data's "Oh Shit" for instance)

That, and I do like Malcolm McDowell.

But yeah, the premise of the captains being stuck together in some sort of blissful perrgatory was kind of ridiculous.

Overall, not a great movie, but enough in there to be enjoyable.

As far as I am concerned Star Trek was best starting somewhere in Season 3-4 TNG and going through maybe Season 6. And then again great in most of DS9.

There are some notable exceptions though. One of my favorite TNG episodes is actually in Season 2, Measure of a Man, when they are forced into a legal battle to decide if Data is a for of life or Starfleet property.

The funny part is that I hated DS9 when it first aired. it bored me to tears. I then rewatched it a few years ago(after I ran out of TNG HD remasters to watch) and was astonished by how good it was.

Voyager had many ludicrously bad episodes, and I can't think of even a single great episode. Still I liked that it was in the same Universe and approximate time period as TNG and DS9 so I watched it just because I had run out of other Trek to watch.

Enterprise was interesting. I enjoyed it (after I got over how much I hated the theme song) but still, it's not in the TNG/DS9/VOY universe/time period so it was of less interest to me.

As far as the movies go, as mentioned above Generations was a guilty pleasure, but to your point the only really good one was First Contact.

JJ Abrams movies weren't terrible movies in isolation, once you get past the motion sickness inducing shaky camera and ridiculous overdone post processing lens flares, but in the end I hated the parallel universe Canon break-in aspects of them and what they did to the Klingons. Those are not Klingons.

I can't get too mad at JJ Abrams though, because Breaking Bad is one of the best television series of all time. He should just stay in his lane, which is gritty epic crime dramas. He seems to fail at SciFi.

The Klingon thing is also one of my biggest complaints with Discovery.

The discussion is academic, anyway, since neither sTP nor STD are in the Star Trek canon, but a hollow fork by the lowest Hollywood waste.

Is that confirmed?

Because I look at the TNG/DS9/VOY universe as Canon. Yes, Discovery took some liberties with the Klingons, but we do know that in Canon there were Klingon wars, and that the spore drive thing messed with time, so I'm not convinced we are in the Abrams universe.

Same with Picard. All of the strange occurrences in Picard happen after TNG/DS9/VOY, so who'w to say they aren't Canon?

Unpopular opinion:
I was never able to get into the original TNG. I've tried a few times, but the low budget look, the 60's camp and the bad acting just proved to be too much for me.

The movies weren't bad though. (Well, most of them at least. Star Trek IV was cute and funny, but not a great Trek movie. Star Trek V was a fail of epic proportions.)

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

We should be expecting a more 'traditional' look in Season 3, I think...

Oh, so you think...

Spoiler

that their spore driving randomly into another distant universe will bring them into the Canon universe? I had guessed it would turn it more into something Like Voyager where we see something completely different and don't have to worry about what Klingons look like, because there won't be any

Interesting take!

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Outside of the incredibly formal language used in past Trek series (which would sound far more off and stilted to modern viewers) or creating brand new slang (which almost always sounds incredibly dumb) I'm not really sure what options they have.

I think Mando gets away with it in that scene simply because those two Storm Troopers are supposed to be morons and their dialog adds to it. It also helps that Star Wars is neither futuristic nor sci-fi. It's space fantasy set "a long time ago" so they can play with language and slang use.

I agree with this.

The best they can do is use language that sounds natural to the target audience, and not try to make dumb shit up.

I guess some of us are just aging out of the target audience and their chosen language doesn't sound natural to them.

I'm actually surprised this isn't me, because I'm used to being the grumpy old curmudgeon around here, but nothing in Picard stood out to me.

 

[Algrim]

Voyager had many ludicrously bad episodes, and I can't think of even a single great episode.

The last episode was pretty good! (As in, it was the last one!)

 

[MrCaffeineX]

Have I mentioned how much the "modern" lighting bothers me on here before? For example, look at the difference in lighting between TNG and Generations or any of the other TNG movies. It gets especially dark for no apparent reason in Nemesis. They seem to be stuck filming through one of those tinted lens covers. Perhaps it has to do with targeting theatrical release vs television or the switch to digital production from film?