Star Citizen: The Beginning of the End

fdiaz78

2[H]4U
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
2,123
Speaking of the specifics, that would be the Chris Roberts who successfully released a large number of Wing Commander titles, and produced / directed / whatever a film? And what has Derek Smart actually done?

LOL Did you really actually use the word "successfully" and Chris Roberts in the same sentence describing his movie career? All of his movies flopped and lost the studios money. His Wing Commander movie coast 30M to make and it only grossed 11 million.


This guy has a history of blowing other people's money on "visionary" projects but always falls short.


Btw: The whole "What about Derek Smart" is getting old and at this point irrelevant. Time to face that SC is not in a good place right now. They will not be able to release next year something anywhere near what was promised. Funding will dry up as people wise up and start demanding results and return on their money.
 

Gweenz

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Messages
1,216
LOL Did you really actually use the word "successfully" and Chris Roberts in the same sentence describing his movie career? All of his movies flopped and lost the studios money. His Wing Commander movie coast 30M to make and it only grossed 11 million.

He also got sued by Kevin Costner, for an unrelated movie.
 

MavericK

Zero Cool
Joined
Sep 2, 2004
Messages
31,535
so when it comes to kickstarter, youre basically just donating money, right? nothing is legally binding?

Kickstarter TOS states that if project creators fail to deliver, they may be subject to legal action from backers. That said, Kickstarter takes no responsibility.
 

Aix.

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 30, 2010
Messages
1,959
I take it you're one of the ones with thousands invested since you get so damn butt hurt every time someone even thinks about saying something negative about this clusterfuck.

I'm in for $250 (back when I thought they might not even reach the original goal - I didn't know they'd continue selling ships for cash for years to come...) but to this point I haven't seen actual evidence that CiG is in financial trouble.

If anyone has actual evidence that the game or CiG is in financial trouble I'd happily look at it. Statements from terminated employees aren't generally a reliable source of information unless there's a bunch of supporting evidence as well.
 

daglesj

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
May 7, 2005
Messages
5,639
At the end of the day if you can't produce a usable/decent end product (of anything) with $90 million then you don't deserve anyone's time and future investment.

Time will tell.
 

percydaman

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 26, 2011
Messages
294
Speaking of the specifics, that would be the Chris Roberts who successfully released a large number of Wing Commander titles, and produced / directed / whatever a film? And what has Derek Smart actually done?

That's like saying you can't criticize a movie, unless you make them yourselves. And good ones to boot.

Nothing the guy has said as been a lie.
 

BettiePage

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
315
I'm in for $250 (back when I thought they might not even reach the original goal - I didn't know they'd continue selling ships for cash for years to come...) but to this point I haven't seen actual evidence that CiG is in financial trouble.

If anyone has actual evidence that the game or CiG is in financial trouble I'd happily look at it. Statements from terminated employees aren't generally a reliable source of information unless there's a bunch of supporting evidence as well.

dont have a single penny in this, but i did go to the site before via links a few years back... was amazed they were selling ships to a game not out for hundreds... left site and never looked back.

they have raised 90 mil... spent mils on hiring actors and doing motion cap for a game not even done yet... factor in the salaries they give themselves... also look at their cash flow coming in via selling more vaporware... ponzi scheme. go play ED if you want a space sim type game.
 

Darunion

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 6, 2010
Messages
4,509
dont have a single penny in this, but i did go to the site before via links a few years back... was amazed they were selling ships to a game not out for hundreds... left site and never looked back.

they have raised 90 mil... spent mils on hiring actors and doing motion cap for a game not even done yet... factor in the salaries they give themselves... also look at their cash flow coming in via selling more vaporware... ponzi scheme. go play ED if you want a space sim type game.

I am hooked on ED. Play it on my xbox mostly now but do have a nice setup on the pc with audio commands and flight controls.
 

yourgrandma

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Apr 15, 2011
Messages
1,391
I've only had a passing interest in this game because i enjoyed freelancer. Didn't bother to back though, if i did i would have done a bit more research on his involvement in it. That alone would have had enough red flags to stay away.

No one at SC is going to listen Derek Smart's rants. The real problem is that any attempt within the SC community to be critical of the focus of the game gets immediately shouted down or ignored. Without a publisher it's solely up to the backers to demand transparency/results and criticize the progress of the game.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14804-Design-Civilian-Passenger-Transport

This was posted in the other thread but is a good example of how SC fans/backers are not only willing to follow chris roberts off a cliff but are fanatically encourage to him doing so in the comments. The entire thing reads like a joke. It exaggerates the of depth and is very dismissive of how hard it will be to implement and balance all these stupid fucking mechanics (not to mention make them interesting to play).

I'll admit though this entire meltdown is interesting to watch from the outside perspective.
 

Sovereign

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
3,098
I'm in for $250 (back when I thought they might not even reach the original goal - I didn't know they'd continue selling ships for cash for years to come...) but to this point I haven't seen actual evidence that CiG is in financial trouble.

If anyone has actual evidence that the game or CiG is in financial trouble I'd happily look at it. Statements from terminated employees aren't generally a reliable source of information unless there's a bunch of supporting evidence as well.

People criticizing the project keep saying stuff, but not providing any proof that passes the smell test (i.e. not "anonymous" sources who may or may not a. have an agenda, b. exist). Just saying "I know CIG is in trouble" fifty times does not make it so.

If DS, for all his talk, actually did anything, a FOIA for FTC records should have found something. It's possible an investigation is ongoing, but if that were the case one would expect "We don't comment on active investigations" or somesuch. It's extremely unlikely that an investigation into a game company would be so secret as to hide from the public that it is actually going on. That's NSA/CIA right there.

I get that some people think backers are idiots. And I think they fail to recognize that most backers are well aware they may well be lighting money on fire. That's a difference of opinion, which is A-OK.

What's not OK is this "Well, it's failing because I know it's going to fail" and using a very questionable source with an agenda (DS) to bolster an already thin case. If it flops, it flops, but there's no objective evidence that even half of the very serious allegations made by DS and "former employees" have any merit.
 

BettiePage

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
315
for now

FTC is considering that companies have quarterly or annual reports so backers can see where the money is going

which wont change the fact that it is still a donation. KS is not investing, your not an investor, your donating money, often times for a gift and that's it.

it's like a drive for public radio or tv... your giving your money for a cause you believe in and get a little bonus doohickey in return.
 

Elios

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 12, 2004
Messages
7,286
which wont change the fact that it is still a donation. KS is not investing, your not an investor, your donating money, often times for a gift and that's it.

it's like a drive for public radio or tv... your giving your money for a cause you believe in and get a little bonus doohickey in return.

but even NPR and PBS have to release yearly financial information
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Messages
847
He blew through $90M and still no game? Not a surprise considering Chris Roberts' past. He is well known for missing deadlines and going way over budget.

Who knows how much other money he received from hardware developers to use his highly anticipated title to push their hardware. It would appear Chris Roberts needs to cut the rhetoric, show all accounting to the backers, and finish the title.

This is a prime example of why people need to be weary of crowd funded projects. KS and others have become a shit show!
 

Frankie

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
2,086
I'm in for $250 (back when I thought they might not even reach the original goal - I didn't know they'd continue selling ships for cash for years to come...) but to this point I haven't seen actual evidence that CiG is in financial trouble.

If anyone has actual evidence that the game or CiG is in financial trouble I'd happily look at it. Statements from terminated employees aren't generally a reliable source of information unless there's a bunch of supporting evidence as well.

What do you want? Bank statements? That's not ever likely to happen, maybe once it's far too late (i.e. Production has stopped or slowed to a crawl).

In CRs response to DS and The Escapist he responds to allegations that he doesn't have enough money to make the game as promised by saying (paraphrasing here) "how could he know that? Only me and a few other people have access to all the information it would require to be able to say that."

He never actually says it's false. Never says it's not true. How come?

And in a previous interview he says that if they're not bringing in 2 or 3 million a month in ship sales (which they're not, 3 out of the last 4 months have been well short of those numbers), then he won't have as many people working on SC.

He also doesn't deny that he's already spent the majority of the crowd funding money.

Monthly income has been steadily declining. Spikes from new ship sales have been smaller. Overalls there's an indisputable downward trend in their crowd funding income. Reasonable estimates of their burn rate along with their income and an optimistic "release date" of 18 months from now show them running out of money long before release, possibly in as little as 5 or 6 months (I'm sure someone will be along shortly to make some unrealistic estimates of their burn rates).

It's evidence enough for me (especially with the former employees statements about mismanagement and wasteful spending) to think that it's quite likely CIG is not in a good financial position right now, and to think that theres no way the game is currently "fully funded" despite the fact that it should be.

If CR releases a "baby PU" that's good and really gets people fired up and they get some big funding spikes (multiple months of 4-6 million plus or so), or he in some other way pulls a financial rabbit out of his ass, he might be fine. But currently I would say there's more than enough evidence that the most reasonable conclusion right now is "CIG is having trouble" rather than the "Everything is fine" statements which are all you'll ever get from the fanatics.
 
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
48
I'm $120 in, and I also only joined in because I want to see more games like this.
Yes, the scope is Huge, and Chris Roberts isn't known for his Directing&Management Smarts, but you'd have thought that you could hire someone to do that, and he'd just be at the controls as it were.

I've been round Freelancer so many times, and with Elite : Dangerous having the online requirement (Correct me if i'm wrong, I've got really iffy internet), I'd rather play the original Elite, in 8-bit. As I remember it so well.
I can listen to the Blue Danube loop for hours without tiring of it :)
 
Joined
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Messages
48
No Edit Button : I am not expecting to see my Money back, whatever happens. Just to be clear. I wouldn't pop more than the minimum possible, maybe with a ship if you want.
 

Dan_D

Extremely [H]
Joined
Feb 9, 2002
Messages
61,182
I'm in for $250 (back when I thought they might not even reach the original goal - I didn't know they'd continue selling ships for cash for years to come...) but to this point I haven't seen actual evidence that CiG is in financial trouble.

If anyone has actual evidence that the game or CiG is in financial trouble I'd happily look at it. Statements from terminated employees aren't generally a reliable source of information unless there's a bunch of supporting evidence as well.

As I've said before, the articles aren't even that important. You don't need them to know something is wrong with the project. Squadron 42 is over a year behind. It's new projected release date is well into 2016 and by some accounts 2017. It should not take 5 or 6 years to do a mission based space combat game. Forget about the other modules and components of Star Citizen. With multiple sources citing lay offs and the games development being well over due something is clearly wrong at CIG and it doesn't take articles to figure that out.

Financial issues not withstanding I think people are right to be concerned. We have a studio that has produced no finished products facing massive delays. The guy in charge has several dismal failures under his belt. He hasn't made a computer game in fifteen years. There isn't a real beta of it and we know nothing beyond the videos and screenshots used to lure investors. If they had something resembling a complete product we would have seen a lot more of it by now. Think about it, if Squadron 42 was even a third complete it would benefit CIG to show it off to secure more funding for the other modules and put people at ease.

As I said there is reason for concern even without looking to some of these recent articles.
 

Logan321

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Oct 9, 2003
Messages
1,900
I pledged for a starter ship for SC. I bought elite dangerous. I'm interested in No Man's Sky. Star Citizen will end up like any f2p mmo, with expansions and skin sales trying to keep the lights on, if it makes it that far. I think scope and promises need to be scaled back. I'm cautiously optimistic we'll see something of worth by q1 2016. If not I'll probably quit caring. I've paid $60 for games I got bored with after a couple hours, so a $45 investment isn't the end of the world for me if it doesn't work out. I don't understand why people are getting so worked up about it though. Seems like there are some real world causes to focus on.
 

bh192012

Gawd
Joined
Aug 28, 2009
Messages
583
Seems like a lot of talk w/o details. They're still pulling in at least a million a month, which would support a lot of continued development. I have no idea of what a natural pace of development for a AAA MMO is like... if they start off with lots of artists, then ween them off as the game nears completion, or if it's backwards of that..... Well and Squadron 42 is more like a stand alone game so MMO / stand alone game.
 
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
48
As I've said before, the articles aren't even that important. You don't need them to know something is wrong with the project. Squadron 42 is over a year behind. It's new projected release date is well into 2016 and by some accounts 2017. It should not take 5 or 6 years to do a mission based space combat game. Forget about the other modules and components of Star Citizen. With multiple sources citing lay offs and the games development being well over due something is clearly wrong at CIG and it doesn't take articles to figure that out.

Financial issues not withstanding I think people are right to be concerned. We have a studio that has produced no finished products facing massive delays. The guy in charge has several dismal failures under his belt. He hasn't made a computer game in fifteen years. There isn't a real beta of it and we know nothing beyond the videos and screenshots used to lure investors. If they had something resembling a complete product we would have seen a lot more of it by now. Think about it, if Squadron 42 was even a third complete it would benefit CIG to show it off to secure more funding for the other modules and put people at ease.

As I said there is reason for concern even without looking to some of these recent articles.

I did actually get to play an outside flying tutorial, which showed they at least had an engine up and running.
I'm not being pro because I put money down, just saying that there was more than videos and pics.
I benched the hangar and the outside sequence on my oc R9 290 on a home made overkill water loop.
i5-3750@4Ghz/wc/16GB Ram

This was back in July though, on a previous Build. So not indicative of the new build that I havent even booted up yet.
The text below is my description of what the graph is about.
2560x1440 iirc noAA.

EPhXY3s


"Just before the 25s mark is the bit where the Hanger finished loading and started to be displayed. Lots of Pop-in for 3-5s.
The next dip at 97s, and the preceding flat bit, is the start, and loading, of the flight tutorial. After that, its the tutorial itself, with everything beyond 169s roughly, being outside in space."
 
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
48
If we had proof, there would be lawsuits starting. It's all speculation. However, red flags a flying. You have to be foolish to ignore that somethings not right.

I don't see anything more than a few posts here and there.
An audit could be done to see exactly where we are with everything, but so far, I don't see anyone giving up.
I wouldn't expect 90% of the people who pledged to have done so more than once.
I wouldn't recommend pledging more than once on ANY kickstarter or similar project.

Until the day comes that he says he's bankrupt, i'll give him time.
Its not like we're swimming in really good space sims.

(I also Liked Daikatana. There i've said it. I never got to finish the game due to a bug, every time i played through, but I still liked it :) I feel alone in the world......)
 

staknhalo

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
3,039
Didn't the original TOS say there would be an audit if the game weren't dilivered by next month (Nov 2015) - or something along those lines? I recall reading that somewhere.
 

snowcrash

Gawd
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
712
Those trashing Derek Smart in this thread are using Star Citizen to do so just to show Derek's hypocrisy. Not one of you actually care about the game and if there was no DS, you would be crucifying this game mercilessly or already doing so.

If you're still a supporter, just think about the cost of payroll to support a team of couple hundred employees. Get that through your mind. Multiply that by years since SC was announced and think about how many more years the team can go on before completing the game.
 

Ocellaris

Fully [H]
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Messages
19,077
Looks like Derek Smart is an expert in delayed and failed software projects. He should be treated as expert for commenting on the SC situation :D
 

staknhalo

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
3,039
Imagine how much more the SC fanbois will hate Derek Smart if he turns out to be right about all of this lol
 

460cidpower

Weaksauce
Joined
Jul 8, 2004
Messages
118
Anyone who backs anything crowdfunded, should be prepared for the loss of their funding. It's not investment into a company, it's a donation.

Once I heard it was going to be a massive pay to win game, I rolled my eyes and moved on.

Star citizens ambitions are too large to be met by their money and time limits.
 
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
48
Those trashing Derek Smart in this thread are using Star Citizen to do so just to show Derek's hypocrisy. Not one of you actually care about the game and if there was no DS, you would be crucifying this game mercilessly or already doing so.

If you're still a supporter, just think about the cost of payroll to support a team of couple hundred employees. Get that through your mind. Multiply that by years since SC was announced and think about how many more years the team can go on before completing the game.

He apparently admitted to having monetary contracts with outside funding, so he seems to have other sources of income.
 
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
48
Anyone who backs anything crowdfunded, should be prepared for the loss of their funding. It's not investment into a company, it's a donation.

Once I heard it was going to be a massive pay to win game, I rolled my eyes and moved on.

Star citizens ambitions are too large to be met by their money and time limits.

Squadron 42 is to be an offline single player game.
Hopefully no pay to win there. I hope.
 

Aix.

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 30, 2010
Messages
1,959
What do you want? Bank statements? That's not ever likely to happen, maybe once it's far too late (i.e. Production has stopped or slowed to a crawl).

In CRs response to DS and The Escapist he responds to allegations that he doesn't have enough money to make the game as promised by saying (paraphrasing here) "how could he know that? Only me and a few other people have access to all the information it would require to be able to say that."

He never actually says it's false. Never says it's not true. How come?

And in a previous interview he says that if they're not bringing in 2 or 3 million a month in ship sales (which they're not, 3 out of the last 4 months have been well short of those numbers), then he won't have as many people working on SC.

He also doesn't deny that he's already spent the majority of the crowd funding money.

Monthly income has been steadily declining. Spikes from new ship sales have been smaller. Overalls there's an indisputable downward trend in their crowd funding income. Reasonable estimates of their burn rate along with their income and an optimistic "release date" of 18 months from now show them running out of money long before release, possibly in as little as 5 or 6 months (I'm sure someone will be along shortly to make some unrealistic estimates of their burn rates).

It's evidence enough for me (especially with the former employees statements about mismanagement and wasteful spending) to think that it's quite likely CIG is not in a good financial position right now, and to think that theres no way the game is currently "fully funded" despite the fact that it should be.

If CR releases a "baby PU" that's good and really gets people fired up and they get some big funding spikes (multiple months of 4-6 million plus or so), or he in some other way pulls a financial rabbit out of his ass, he might be fine. But currently I would say there's more than enough evidence that the most reasonable conclusion right now is "CIG is having trouble" rather than the "Everything is fine" statements which are all you'll ever get from the fanatics.

As I've said before, the articles aren't even that important. You don't need them to know something is wrong with the project. Squadron 42 is over a year behind. It's new projected release date is well into 2016 and by some accounts 2017. It should not take 5 or 6 years to do a mission based space combat game. Forget about the other modules and components of Star Citizen. With multiple sources citing lay offs and the games development being well over due something is clearly wrong at CIG and it doesn't take articles to figure that out.

Financial issues not withstanding I think people are right to be concerned. We have a studio that has produced no finished products facing massive delays. The guy in charge has several dismal failures under his belt. He hasn't made a computer game in fifteen years. There isn't a real beta of it and we know nothing beyond the videos and screenshots used to lure investors. If they had something resembling a complete product we would have seen a lot more of it by now. Think about it, if Squadron 42 was even a third complete it would benefit CIG to show it off to secure more funding for the other modules and put people at ease.

As I said there is reason for concern even without looking to some of these recent articles.

Actually, I do need something to know that something is wrong with the project.

The whole point of giving CR money up front for this "game" was because:
(a) Nobody was making these space sim games anymore and we wanted one; and
(b) We trusted CR's vision for the game.

If either of the above points didn't apply to you, or you "pledged" more than you were willing to lose, then you should not have given money to CiG. The game is late but that is hardly an indication of crippling financial problems; it just means it's late. I'm certainly not giving them any more money, but until evidence is produced that we won't be getting a game I'm going to assume we're getting a game. All of this "then why doesn't he deny it?!" stuff is (currently) just unsupported fear/worry/anger, because at the end of the day CR doesn't answer to any of us or to a publisher, and he can say as much or as little as he wants.
 

Darunion

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 6, 2010
Messages
4,509
Actually, I do need something to know that something is wrong with the project.

The whole point of giving CR money up front for this "game" was because:
(a) Nobody was making these space sim games anymore and we wanted one; and
(b) We trusted CR's vision for the game.

If either of the above points didn't apply to you, or you "pledged" more than you were willing to lose, then you should not have given money to CiG. The game is late but that is hardly an indication of crippling financial problems; it just means it's late. I'm certainly not giving them any more money, but until evidence is produced that we won't be getting a game I'm going to assume we're getting a game. All of this "then why doesn't he deny it?!" stuff is (currently) just unsupported fear/worry/anger, because at the end of the day CR doesn't answer to any of us or to a publisher, and he can say as much or as little as he wants.

Many larger companies always hold the position of not replying to rumors. People speculate and share their ideas all the time, companies have no time to sit and cater to the reddit and facebook news source reading groups
 

chaos4u

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 1, 2004
Messages
349
I'm tired off all the negative ignorant uninformed supposed gamers posting trash about star citizen.

there is no red flags

there is no warning signs

there is no roadblocks

there is no lack of progress.

all the people posting that the project is in trouble keeps alluding to trash posted by DS and the supporters of his delirium.
I am shocked so many people are backing DS propaganda with so little facts on the table

all the posts always infer to some kind of money trouble. or people abandoning ship or the one that really irks me the most .. that the game is just impossible.

well its all debunked trash
the truth is.

THE GAME IS JUST FINE.

this project has givien the public the most in depth coverage of if its development, of any video game ever made EVER.. one has to just go to star citizen web page read all the monthly progress reports

watch the chairman videos, around the verse videos , q for the dev videos, and the coutless other resouces produced by the project to know when and how that this game is coming together.

and guess what it is actually on time despite all the twisting of facts and pointing to release dates.
The scope was broadened by the backers knowing that it would prolong the game development time
those following the project know this because we voted for it by our dollars and in the thread discussing the very issue that we were becoming awfully ambitious. and you know what the backers said yes to the moon !! and beyond damn it because we want the best damn space sim ever.

so here we are . we have in game assets we have in game mechanics we have the start of a persistent universe we have dog fighting .

so yes there is something to show for all the time and money put into the game

those who keep trying to cast this project off as a failure scam or in trouble have deluded themselves with the propaganda flung about by DS. they lack the intelligence to fact find for themselves and instead regurgitate the lies of others repeatedly.
you would think people would want to see this project be completed so they could actually have something with merit to discuss . Instead they would rather declare the project a failure immediately after it just got started. seriously how long was it before people started posting the project was in trouble 2 years ? really 2 years to make a game talk about unrealistic expectations.
its sad really . that so many want to see this project fail. you would think that true gamers would be excited about this project . unfortunately the number of dissenters show that the gaming market is filled with some truly low life individuals who would rather poison projects and attempt to destroy others dreams.


regardless star citizen is not in trouble it is being developed just fine and everything is normal or as normal as game development can be.
 
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