Star Citizen is Free to Try for a Week Starting November 23

kromc5

Weaksauce
Joined
Dec 14, 2017
Messages
76
So if you see steady improvements and actual work being done...

it's a scam and a pyramid scheme?

Yes because most of the work has nothing to do with the ks or extended ks goals. Chris said you could fly through the city but now it's just a big set piece for instant death.
 

copy_run_start

Limp Gawd
Joined
Aug 23, 2011
Messages
405
I'm not getting scope creep citizen until I can do my real word banking or visit an urgent care from my spaceship.

Well, you can make coffee and one of the ships has a piano you can play. We're already pretty close.

Although, I don't think the term scope creep really applies here. When you think of creep, you think of someone who gives you looks that makes you uncomfortable, or who makes comments that make you squirm. SC is more like a scope serial rapist.
 

RanceJustice

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jun 9, 2003
Messages
6,179
Well, you can make coffee and one of the ships has a piano you can play. We're already pretty close.

Although, I don't think the term scope creep really applies here. When you think of creep, you think of someone who gives you looks that makes you uncomfortable, or who makes comments that make you squirm. SC is more like a scope serial rapist.

Time to put this "scope creep" thing to bed. Seriously. Its not helping anyone. I can understand how some people perceive it as such, but looking at things a little closer it doesn't apply here. Scope creep (or other vernacular variations thereof) generally mean when a project continues to grow in size beyond its intended design to the point implementation is harmed, the project is untenable etc. This is not what happened with Star Citizen.

Most people typically point to the original Kickstarter era "We're basically going to make an updated Wing Commander" design as evidence of this happening, but it really isn't the case. From the beginning it was intended to be "The Best Damn Space Sim Ever", but they were realistic regarding funding, the industry etc...so they had many plans available. Had they only raised enough to just secure their Kickstarter, only knocked down a few of the initial stretch goals, or had to partner with a publisher etc.. they would have been forced to go with the way more limited design people speak of; one of many potential paths forward. However, as Chris Roberts and CIG revealed their vision (including early design docs like the Death of a Spaceman paper detailing what would be an intensely complex system) and the fans embraced it, passing stretch goal after stretch goal, million by million...to the point they actually ran out of specific stretch goals, things changed. People voted with their dollars they didn't just want a remake of something old hat, but really did want the "Best Damn Space Sim Ever".

This began to solidify a future design that was in line with what we see developing today, a title of uncompromising immersion and depth. Keep in mind some of the stretch goals were things like "Procedural generated planets", "In-house Hollywood-level motion capture studio", "Fully realized written and spoken alien languages", and much more . They had to essentially build their studio from scratch, and would do so with these designs in mind and the funding to do so; they built with the full vision in mind. THus, it wasn't until around 2014 at earliest that things really got up to speed, but even early decisions were made with attention to post-stretch-goal paradigm for the game. For instance, they did not use the built-in CryEngine multiplayer backend because they knew it would be insufficient and instead worked on their own under-the-hood custom tech (later they would build in Lumberyard compatibility too). Once it became apparent to CIG that they had the funding and will of the players to try and make a blue sky, uncompromising project, that is where they set their sights based around that shared vision.

Among those who disagree on the title in good faith (as opposed to those who just want to shit on things dogmatically, repeat tired cliches, or troll etc..) there seems to be a split and this comment above identifies it pretty well. On one side, you have those who would rather have a more traditional game; they don't give a damn about a playable piano, a 100+ page Xi'an language compendium (I am not kidding - check this out - https://robertsspaceindustries.com/...n-Overview-Of-The-Xian-Language-For-Diplomats . No matter your feelings on the game, that PDF linked there is quite an impressing undertaking on behalf of the linguistics professionals on staff), being able to travel on a Starliner and order drinks from your seat, or any other features that they consider "fluff". They often say "build the core game then add that stuff" and if you look at the game from the perspective of a standard industry title, it will seem obscenely late and under fulfilling. However, this is not how Star Citizen was developed.

The idea of Star Citizen as a traditional, slimmed down space fighter sim was never its main design; it was at most, a potential compromise if things evolved in such a way that anything more was not possible. That limited potential version of the game was put to bed as soon as backers voted with their wallets that they wanted an attempt at the uncompromising vision; to see what CIG could do unencumbered by industry norms or limited funds. I would say that at minimum, look at all the design/system docs and other elements (ie Death of a Spaceman being an overview of the health system, the various Grabby Hands + Cargo docs on how those systems would evolve etc) up to and including all the "named" stretch goals as that original scope of the game. With this in mind, we're far from "scope creep" and well within the boundaries dictated at the time.

Thus, scope creep doesn't seem to apply here but instead seems to be more of a shorthand for "I wish they had built a different game, without all the "fluff" and taking so long". However, that's not part of Star Citizen's intended design as far as I can tell - what some on that side of the divide call fluff, is for many of us on the other side some of what makes the project special. There is a technical element as well where much of the "fluff" is actually part of a long, underlying development to make certain features possible. Consider that being able to lift a glass, take a sip, slosh it back and forth, upend the rest to spill on the floor, and put the glass down whereever you please are not only demonstrations of the various item presence and manipulation, but will impact the entire Cargo system as it is implemented. Sure, they could have gone with a common "cargo is a virtual system basically numbers on a UI somewhere and occasionally a container spawned outside the ship" , but the vision for the cargo system in SC is far more interesting , in depth, and will enable unique play elements such as being able to pick up a container within a ship's hold and only if you know to turn it over, press the right buttons in the right sequence and shift a panel, will it reveal the scan-blocking compartment within that hides secret data or contraband! To make many of these advanced features, even things like mulltiplayer ships with duty stations, possible a ton of underlying work is needed.

Those of us who signed on to give Chris Roberts and CIG an unencumbered chance to build something boundary breaking, immersive, and unique in line with a shared vision are more tolerant of the time it is taking. Consider that it took around 6 or 7 years for Blizzard to release WoW, judging by screenshots from Alpha builds in 1998/1999 ; this was a fully constituted studio that was making a title that was an evolution of existing MMOs like EverQuest. CIG on the other hand had to build from scratch and did not solidify their scope until years had passed, plus they're building something with a depth and scope that has not been before attempted. When I backed Star Citizen I wasn't intending to simply pre-order a game but to back a project with unique aspirations and give it a chance of realization. I knew it would take a long time and not be without risk (I have objections to some decisions made by CIG etc), but so long as there is forward progress and certain red-lines remain uncrossed (ie I will be the first to offer a vehement rebuke if they sell ships for real money, item mall style, post launch),, I am willing to give them the time . Those who wanted a simpler game and faster, it just didn't align with Star Citizen's intended design and would deny what makes it special. Those unhappy about it I encourage to check out other space titles as it may be closer to their desires. Elite: Dangerous for instance is the product of what they seem to find desirable - a standard publisher, building on a limited project without as much "fluff" and then adding new content post-launch. I could write a whole post comparing and contrasting Elite and Star Citizen and the former is by no matter a bad game, but there are reasons why the latter has captured the interest of so many more.

I've long said that the development of Star Citizen is a lot like a luxury skyscraper in that there are lots of foundational systems and work to be built and during this time it doesn't look anything like the finished offices or residences shown in the building brochure. Watching a foundation being poured, some girders going up, unfinished wiring and plumbing etc... it isn't until way into production that people can begin to see the project resemble a building and even later, almost when its finished, when it begins to really appear what was promised on the brochure. Unlike most luxury skyscrapers, Star Citizen is built with tons of eyes from backers and non-backers alike looking at a large amount of the design process, in one of the most transparent of crowdfunded game developments; an industry already known to open their studios to backers way more than a traditional published title. I'd say since 3.3.x, we've hit the "its beginning to look like a building" moment and that's great. For those who don't follow the game closely its a time to see a bigger jump in progress and despite near constant naysaying and goal-post moving from some (I can't tell you how many times I heard that someone was absolutely sure the studio was a month from folding etc), many "impossible" features have been implemented. There is still a ways to go of course and lots of new game systems, major and minor alike, to implement and polish but I see this only as continued evidence of forward progress and encourage others - new and old backers or just those not yet involved with the game, to give it a try with reasonable expectations - this is a true Alpha after all and like I said there are still elements of the game to implement.

In summation, I don't believe "scope/feature creep" applies here as Star Citizen's intended scope has always been exceptional. With the resources to attempt, and continued and growing evidence of success down this path, adds even greater confirmation. There are some who may have favored a simpler, more common title developed quickly but this is not what SC has been since CIG and the backers "voted" with their wallets for a shared, expansive vision. This will take quite some time to develop, but the innovative game systems require development of underlying features ; nevertheless, we've seen consistent forward progress (though not without error or issue, as expected of any massive development undertaking) with the Alpha 3.3.x releases being a significant milestone. This is not to say there is any guarantee or that the endeavor is risk free, but I remain cautiously optimistic. Demonstration not just of progress but it being made in the right manner, suggests that many of the aspirations of the very, very ambitious design will come to fruition if given the time and effort. Those who can give the game a chance should definitely check in on the progress made, but waiting is also an option for those who prefer more polish and seeing the title at a later time. However, I don't see it as helpful judging the title against a hypothetical design (ie "simple, quick, etc) that was only a possibility mentioned at the very inception of the campaign; it is so far divorced from both the planned and implemented progress path that all comparison will simply lead to disappointment. There aref reasonable critiques and discussions of CIG and Star Citizen's progress within the sphere of its path that could add benefit and suggestion to better the game, but something amounting to "I wish it was a totally different, simpler game released 4 years ago" doesn't seem very helpful at this point and seems to serve only as fodder for those who down the game out of less constructive , more vindictive trolling types.

Every year Star Citizen runs its "Anniversary" events and this year it comes with an extensive free-fly event complete with all ships present in the build thus far available to all players! I hope all that give it a try enjoy and see a bit of the progress the title is making.
 

velusip

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jan 24, 2005
Messages
1,579
It's a good point. The boundless scope panders directly to what the investors want -- a chance to "just imagine the potential", as it were for every kickstarter before it. It's a shared dream, and you gotta pay to get on board. It tickles the armchair developers and haters alike! It's similar to the lottery: You pay for a ticket; which is a tiny licence to a weekly dream of potential. And who knows? The game might come out, and then the dream will never end.

Joking aside, I think the unlimited scope is an important part of the game for another reason which you may or may not agree with: Sci-fi is garbage, and that makes me SAD. I fucking love sci-fi, but it was ruined long before I was born in the mid 20th century by bad cinema. The never-ending surge of low quality contributions ever since raised a society of shit-eating sci-fi fans. People are willing to pay to see the bar raised in favour of compelling sci-fi. And I think that's a good sign. However, someone must get rich to prove that people demand better sci-fi. So lets raise our glasses to that cheeky little fucker, Chris Roberts, for being the asshole who collects. Or you can just hate on the dreamers... suit yourself. *drinks*
 

M76

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
12,039
It's a good point. The boundless scope panders directly to what the investors want -- a chance to "just imagine the potential", as it were for every kickstarter before it. I
I really just wanted an updated Wing Commander, that's why I paid. But they took my money, spit in my face, and went on a wild rampage creating a neverending streak of paid jpegs. . So fuck CR and fuck CIG, as far as I'm concerned they scammed me. And don't come with this, that the inventors wanted the limitless scope. No, at least not the sane ones. The ignorant backers didn't know what they wanted. But CR promised them everything, of course they said "hell yes", not knowing what scope creep meant. CR acted like a car sales man, and sold us the wrong car.

We were promised a new Wing Commander Game, the MMO part was only mentioned as a possibility "if the funding is enough". And what they did? They all but forgot about the wing commander type game, it only exists as an afterthought in the shadow of this lumbering tech demo, that they dare call a game.

I don't believe that anyone now defending this clusterfuck would've agreed if they were told back in 2012 that in 2018 the project won't even be 25% (a very generous estimate) complete. NOBODY. And if you say you would've been fine with that, well I think you're lying.
The only people who are still defending this neverending story are those who didn't see the problems with the development, when they first became apparent 3-4 years ago. And they defended everything like in the original downfall video "CR will bring it under control". Now they're doubling down to save face, not in the community, because everyone else is just laughing at them, they're just refusing to admit to themselves that they were wrong.

If CIG was a construction firm and they promised you that they would build you a 4 bedroom house by 2014, you'd have fired them long ago, when you saw that in 2016 they had just dug the foundations of a 16 room mansion.
 

gunbust3r

Gawd
Joined
Dec 12, 2004
Messages
900
If CIG was a construction firm and they promised you that they would build you a 4 bedroom house by 2014, you'd have fired them long ago, when you saw that in 2016 they had just dug the foundations of a 16 room mansion.

Meanwhile while the construction firm should be working on your house they render and sell masturbatory elevations of 37 room mansions to the next sucker in line.

I'm surprised they are not teamed up with that bunch of CG wankers rendering that flying train plane and drone balancing city fire truck CNET is so wet for.
 

defaultluser

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jan 14, 2006
Messages
14,176
It took them almost a year to create another planet to explore.

You would think that all the kinks would have been worked out after the three moons they already built ...with planet construction pipeline streamlined, but no.

Each planet must be built from the ground up, because FIDELITY!. Hope you guys don't die of old age before he hits 20 planet mark :D
 

Eickst

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Messages
1,883
They've allegedly been spending more time fleshing out Squadron 42, the single player game, than they have on the MMO. So that's their current excuse for lackluster development progress on the MMO side.
 

velusip

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jan 24, 2005
Messages
1,579
I really just wanted an updated Wing Commander, that's why I paid. But they took my money, spit in my face, and went on a wild rampage creating a neverending streak of paid jpegs. . So fuck CR and fuck CIG, as far as I'm concerned they scammed me. And don't come with this, that the inventors wanted the limitless scope. No, at least not the sane ones. The ignorant backers didn't know what they wanted. But CR promised them everything, of course they said "hell yes", not knowing what scope creep meant. CR acted like a car sales man, and sold us the wrong car.

We were promised a new Wing Commander Game, the MMO part was only mentioned as a possibility "if the funding is enough". And what they did? They all but forgot about the wing commander type game, it only exists as an afterthought in the shadow of this lumbering tech demo, that they dare call a game.

I don't believe that anyone now defending this clusterfuck would've agreed if they were told back in 2012 that in 2018 the project won't even be 25% (a very generous estimate) complete. NOBODY. And if you say you would've been fine with that, well I think you're lying.
The only people who are still defending this neverending story are those who didn't see the problems with the development, when they first became apparent 3-4 years ago. And they defended everything like in the original downfall video "CR will bring it under control". Now they're doubling down to save face, not in the community, because everyone else is just laughing at them, they're just refusing to admit to themselves that they were wrong.

If CIG was a construction firm and they promised you that they would build you a 4 bedroom house by 2014, you'd have fired them long ago, when you saw that in 2016 they had just dug the foundations of a 16 room mansion.
I don't have any sympathy. I think early access crowdsourced kickstarting is hilarious. Respect where respect is due, to the evil geniuses who got all this free money. :)
 

Ranulfo

2[H]4U
Joined
Feb 9, 2006
Messages
2,384
Regarding the scope creep debate, just a reminder but CIG was giving out free copies of SC with R9 290(x) cards 4 years ago. How well does the new alpha run on 4gb ram cards these days? Where is SQ42 hmm? As for the PU, there are many games out there that are playable alphas on steam that offer more for $20. Empyrion being one or even Space Engineers (with mods). Those have player run servers too.
 

EODetroit

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Messages
1,485
Writing a comment before I go on vacation so that I'll be reminded to read the comments when I get back.

Thread met expectations.

Btw, version 3.3.5 is out now. A new planet, its five moons, and a lot of other stuff is in the alpha on the live servers.
 

DocNo

Gawd
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
654
Heaven help me - I had an account there for some reason so I'm downloading v3.3.6 (12GB!) to try out for the free to play weekend.

Just reading through the "Account Settings" section on the web site and the amount of stuff in there geared to generate sales is staggering. And very well polished. I'm sure there will be no bugs if I buy anything :cautious:
 

Eickst

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Messages
1,883
The store works flawlessly. Funny how every game manages to get that setup even during alpha/beta stages with 0 issues
 
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