Star Citizen Departures?

DPI

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I expect that is true since I suspect that a fair amount of this money was collected on credit cards and the credit card legal protections are very clear (you must receive the product or service you bought or the credit card company must refund your money ... and then they can go fight with the other company to get compensation) ... since I don't think CR wants to be tied up in lawsuits with dozens of credit card providers I suspect he will release something (even if it is another Duke Nukem Forever or Battlecruiser 3000) so that no one gets refunds and he doesn't have to deal with the banks

Someone could still file a class action suit against him for fraud or the quality but that type of suit is much tougher to win than a credit card trying to get their money back ;)

If you put a few grand worth of space yachts on a credit card in 2013 I'm not sure how much recourse you'll really have for disputing the charge in 2017.

The ships are the main product they sell. They certainly aren't shipping and selling games. Realize this stage is more profitable than a finished game would ever be. It's in his best interest to prolong it as long as possible. And brother, you're gonna get SO prolonged.
 

DPI

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im excited when they dont deliver and everyone loses their money. Best business model ever

Honestly, the loss of potentially the definitive PC Master Race title would blow herds. I just personally find it meaningful to criticize the game arrogantly enough that it raises Wildace's systolic BP.

Star Citizen is all things to all people! You want a sidescroller? Star Citizen includes 12 high-octane side scrolling levels. Do you like sports? Space football! It's like football... IN SPACE! Not your thing? Tell us what you want and we'll say it's in STAR CITIZEN. Sign up today!
 

Wildace

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That is all you have? That link?

You are by far THE biggest SC fan boy in this place... I wanted to hear more from you on this matter. I remember getting ragged on awhile back for my post in the SC thread........ And here we are.

There is really nothing to say, haters gonna hate.

And anything that comes from Derek is to be ignored.
 

Husanak

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I have been telling people since this started not to trust Chris Roberts with a dime. People are silly. The WC games only happened because no one let Chris have anything to do with $. He still almost sunk Origin Systems. His movie making where always nothing but taxable income dumps, I mean did lord of war really look like a 50 million dollar flick to anyone. :) Freelancer was a mess, and he managed to bilk Microsoft into buying DA... only to realize they had to almost start over with Freelancer to get it done.

SC is a scam... plain and simple. I would be willing to bet Chris has been trying to find a Buyer for CI for at least a year now. If he can't find a big studio to sucker into buying him out... he will just let it crash at some point and he'll be off to his next scam.
 

DPI

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I have been telling people since this started not to trust Chris Roberts with a dime. People are silly. The WC games only happened because no one let Chris have anything to do with $. He still almost sunk Origin Systems. His movie making where always nothing but taxable income dumps, I mean did lord of war really look like a 50 million dollar flick to anyone. :) Freelancer was a mess, and he managed to bilk Microsoft into buying DA... only to realize they had to almost start over with Freelancer to get it done.

SC is a scam... plain and simple. I would be willing to bet Chris has been trying to find a Buyer for CI for at least a year now. If he can't find a big studio to sucker into buying him out... he will just let it crash at some point and he'll be off to his next scam.

This precisely. People don't realize he totally crapped the bed on Freelancer and had to be removed for it to be shipped. It killed him in the games industry and he spent the 00s pretending to be a filmmaker and was laughed out of Hollywood.

Buying $600 imaginary ships for an unreleased game by a man who hasn't successfully shipped a game since the 90s is totally a good idea.
 

Hornet

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I'm all for the idea behind Kickstarter, and I've backed a couple projects myself. But we cannot ignore the fact that it's always a risk, and the longer the development process is, the bigger the associated risks are. Stuff like deviating from the original goal is very possible if development gets dragged out for far too long.

Therefore I don't think the fans should encourage a business model that is based on selling supporter packs year after year. The money has to stop at some point and the dev needs to be compelled to release the final product if they wants to see further commercial success. If you let a project becomes a commercial success before it is even completed, chances are you may never see the final product you want.
 

atp1916

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Extending off Hornet's thoughts here:
One of the reasons why software ever does get shipped (if it does) is because there is a client/customer/sponsor that does reinforce the necessity of delivering on-time, on-budget, in-scope by simply canning the project completely if the thing gets delayed too long.

Remove the pressure that your typical client/customer/sponsor will exert on the development m process, and you suddenly get the whole "it'll be ready when it's ready" Valve/Id mantra. Look where that's gotten those two companies within the last 10 years or so. Not far at all.

Kickstarter is fine, but the crowd sourcing any one particular development effort is no substitute for a client/customer/sponsor that is reinforcing time,scope, and budget with nothing short of a contract cancellation if things go bad. Your crowd won't be able to pull those moves outside of simply stopping the $$$ sourcing.

That's where we are at, at this point. It's leaking out, finally.
 

trick_m0nkey

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To be perfectly fair, I really want to see Star Citizen succeed. I admire it's scope and ambition, and recognize that it's current model of raising money is likely the only way it's going to happen. And yeah, what they want to do is going to be very difficult.

I think it's going to be cause a lot of damage if this game turns into vaporware. This microscope on CIG is hopefully the kick in the ass it needs.
 

Husanak

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Its not a case of if it turns into vaporware. It is vaporware plain and simple. The only real question I have ever had, is this. Is Roberts a knowing scam artist... or just one of those guys who can't help but dream too big. Back in the freelancer days with the MS mess I sat on the dreamer side of the fence. However after watching his fail, money laundering of a front movie studio... I knew exactly what was happening when he hit the kickstarter with SC. He knows knew this game wasn't ever going to ship with him in charge... now I think if he isn't pure evil, he intended to hand the whole thing off to an EA long before its pass or fail could be completely put on him.

There is a very good reason why he had no investors and had to hit kick starter. I also seem to remember on day one his line was, "if we raise X my investors will swoop in with the rest of the cash". Seems like they didn't really exist.

I really hope people stop throwing money at them. If Roberts can keep this going for 2 years selling $600 ships every few months he will.
 

Bamboo

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This is why I never bought a ship for this game.

I hope these people don't get screwed.:(
 

Jadawin

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""As we announced in June with the appointment of Erin Roberts as Global Production Head we have been reviewing how to optimize our development process," the statement continues. "As a result we are moving some jobs and eliminating some redundant positions between some of our offices, as well as increasing them in others. The net result over the next few months will actually be an increase in our global internal employee base.""
 

bpizzle1

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I backed the game a few years ago at this point, so I have $70 invested in the game. I'd still love it if the game came out soon with half of what they're promising, but I have essentially given up at this point. I check in every once in a while on the process, and all there is to see is some new $500 ship that you may or may not ever actually fly in a finished product. I remember arguing with some of the SC fanboys down in the [H] thread about how fishy this whole buying ships thing had become. Most of them refused to admit that the insane amounts of money they were spending was to buy ships. They are convinced it is "investing in the game." It's crazy to see people down there talk about the latest SC cash grab (aka ship) being a "good deal" at something like $425. Absolute delusion.

I've cut my losses on SC. If they ever actually release anything, I'll give it a try...I paid for it afterall. I'm just over the whole project though. They should have been able to release something by now though. Elite was able to offer a good chunk of what SC is trying to to with no where near the amount of cash and in a reasonable time frame. Feature creep is what killed SC, imo. It's been reduced to: "We want to add X feature, so we need more money. Buy this new ship for a few hundred bucks so we can add this stuff in."
 

mashie

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Maybe the next stretch goal should be "deliver something, anything"?

I'm glad I never invested a single cent in this mess.
 

Litfod

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We all knew the deficiencies when we backed the game. We also knew that in spite of them he's had past successes.

I don't really recall much mention of his deficiencies when it all kicked off, mostly I recall a general attitude of "it's Chris Roberts so of course it's going to be awesome!". And his past successes occurred in a very different era, when Roberts was accountable to other, clearly better managers, and when teams were much, much smaller.

I feel sorry for the employees though, if that letter is legit then it sounds like a horrible working environment to be in as an artist.
 

4saken

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Wish i could pull my funding and quit star citizen too. Absolutely nothing but disappointment at this stage. I have zero optimism that this game will ever be finished and even remotely live up to what was promised.
 

Sycraft

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I'm all for the idea behind Kickstarter, and I've backed a couple projects myself. But we cannot ignore the fact that it's always a risk, and the longer the development process is, the bigger the associated risks are. Stuff like deviating from the original goal is very possible if development gets dragged out for far too long.

I love Kickstarter but ya, you have to be vigilant. First off, you can't risk more than you are willing to lose. Whatever you put in to a game, you have to be ok with getting nothing in return. Even if something comes out, it may be utter shit and you don't want it. So you can't go and sink hundreds or thousands of dollars saying "It's a lot of money, but I'll be happy with the result so it's ok." No, you don't know that.

You also need to be vigilant with what you spend in relation to likely success. Does the company know what they are doing? Is the business plan reasonable? Are their goals achievable? Do they have experience? Etc. The Kickstarter projects that I've backed that have done well are those that meet those things

What it comes down to is that game devs need to listen to Todd Howard's excellent talk over and over until they get the message particularly the part that says "We can do anything, we just can't do everything." Defining a realistic scope of what you are going to do is very, very important. You do not have the ability to do everything, that is just the reality of it.
 

drako

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I put in $45 initially as a show of faith in a genre I love, and was sad to see dead. It wasn't the Freespace 3 that I really want, but I was hoping Squadron 42 could be something close. The more I learned about it after the KS campaign ended, and the more money they've raked in, the more concerned I've become. I'm amazed at how cavalier some people are about spending hundreds of dollars on product for a game that isn't even close to finished (I wouldn't spend that much on any game personally, but to each his own).

But that's not as bad as the sick people here who are rooting for the game to fail so they can fulfill their own personal schadenfreude by laughing at those who stand to lose tons of money following a passion. Grow up.
 

fdiaz78

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Yeah another "I told you so" post. I really hope SC ships something but after watching that first twitch stream of Roberts flying around cursing every five seconds it just reeked of unprofessionalism and not deserving the faith and credit he has been given.
 

AK0tA

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Just for the [H] members only I offer this one time killer deal. I am going to develop the kickstarter BS detection app. Now the app is only $45 and I will offer a gold edition for $125 with zero adds accept for adds from our 352 paid sponsors. Now I don't yet have these sponsors but if you inbox me that $45 We know they will swoop in. This app will tell you if a KS program is to legit to quit or BS. You like hot chicks, we will have hot chicks as this is the new trend. I will personally post YOUR daily horrorscope and for our biggest supporters there will be prizes.

Act now before this goes public as the price will jump to $65, this early adopter offer is only available on days that end in Y.



actually I bought the constellation package for $245 and have already had a ton of fun so far. I have had my moneys worth as when I do a teleconference meeting I go sit in my captains chair of the Connie and feel powerful. I have high hopes for this game but for those who spent thousands, what were you thinking.
 

kbrickley

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Just for the [H] members only I offer this one time killer deal. I am going to develop the kickstarter BS detection app. Now the app is only $45 and I will offer a gold edition for $125 with zero adds accept for adds from our 352 paid sponsors. Now I don't yet have these sponsors but if you inbox me that $45 We know they will swoop in. This app will tell you if a KS program is to legit to quit or BS. You like hot chicks, we will have hot chicks as this is the new trend. I will personally post YOUR daily horrorscope and for our biggest supporters there will be prizes.

Act now before this goes public as the price will jump to $65, this early adopter offer is only available on days that end in Y.



actually I bought the constellation package for $245 and have already had a ton of fun so far. I have had my moneys worth as when I do a teleconference meeting I go sit in my captains chair of the Connie and feel powerful. I have high hopes for this game but for those who spent thousands, what were you thinking.

I wish people would stop using KS as the whipping boy for this project ... Chris Roberts had already collected 20-30 million directly from users before he even launched KS ... in his case he did use KS as an additional money grab but only got an additional 2 million (not even one of the top projects) ... since completing his KS he has gone on to collect more than 30 million additional from users directly (who knows if he has other sources as well) ... if this project succeeds or fails it is reflective of direct user financing but not necessarily Kickstarter itself since KS has only been involved in about 2 million of his 70+ million financing (3%)

KS certainly has risks and you need to be careful which software projects you support but there are reputable developers who are using it to create reputable projects like Divinity, Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland, Torment, Bards Tale IV, Grim Dawn, and others ... although the publisher funded game model has allowed users to stay out of the funding business, it has also led to most of the behaviors that game users like to complain about (monetization techniques like DLC or IAP, console ports, weird or usual shifts in IP to suit publisher desires, etc) ... if through some miracle CR is able to launch a successful project he will prove the user funded model works for big budget AAA projects ... the small developers using KS have already proved the model for Indie titles and smaller budget niche market titles
 

Jim Kim

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I wish people would stop using KS as the whipping boy for this project ... Chris Roberts had already collected 20-30 million directly from users before he even launched KS ... in his case he did use KS as an additional money grab but only got an additional 2 million (not even one of the top projects) ... since completing his KS he has gone on to collect more than 30 million additional from users directly (who knows if he has other sources as well) ... if this project succeeds or fails it is reflective of direct user financing but not necessarily Kickstarter itself since KS has only been involved in about 2 million of his 70+ million financing (3%)

KS certainly has risks and you need to be careful which software projects you support but there are reputable developers who are using it to create reputable projects like Divinity, Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland, Torment, Bards Tale IV, Grim Dawn, and others ... although the publisher funded game model has allowed users to stay out of the funding business, it has also led to most of the behaviors that game users like to complain about (monetization techniques like DLC or IAP, console ports, weird or usual shifts in IP to suit publisher desires, etc) ... if through some miracle CR is able to launch a successful project he will prove the user funded model works for big budget AAA projects ... the small developers using KS have already proved the model for Indie titles and smaller budget niche market titles

20-30 million, that's a 50% increase. Your whole post is sarcasm, right.
 

kbrickley

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20-30 million, that's a 50% increase. Your whole post is sarcasm, right.

I didn't follow this project that closely that is why I gave a range. Chris Roberts started his Star Citizen project with a direct (through his website) donation system ... he collected millions using this method (I know it was at least 20 million but it could have been higher) ... with some of the high profile successful projects like Wasteland, Project Eternity, and other he then decided to do a Kickstarter campaign ... he collected only 2 million through that campaign ... since you can only do one KS per project and he got more money through his own website he returned to that model ... his Star Citizen project has collected more than 70 million in direct user financing ... my analysis was based on that

That said, a 70 million dollar title is not usual ... the big AAA game releases can run into the 50-150 million ranges occasionally (which is why they are usually funded by publishers, who have that kind of money available) ... realistically I hope that CR does pull off his project since it would show that even big projects can be completed with zero publisher involvement ... so no sarcasm
 

Taldren

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Or DSmart is just trying to stir up shit by shifting his failures onto others.

The Austin layoffs are already proven incorrect. Lisa said in chat to everyone the only reason she is leaving is because she got her dream job. The only legit points in his post were that the two PR people had been let go.
 

Jim Kim

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I didn't follow this project that closely that is why I gave a range. Chris Roberts started his Star Citizen project with a direct (through his website) donation system ... he collected millions using this method (I know it was at least 20 million but it could have been higher) ... with some of the high profile successful projects like Wasteland, Project Eternity, and other he then decided to do a Kickstarter campaign ... he collected only 2 million through that campaign ... since you can only do one KS per project and he got more money through his own website he returned to that model ... his Star Citizen project has collected more than 70 million in direct user financing ... my analysis was based on that

That said, a 70 million dollar title is not usual ... the big AAA game releases can run into the 50-150 million ranges occasionally (which is why they are usually funded by publishers, who have that kind of money available) ... realistically I hope that CR does pull off his project since it would show that even big projects can be completed with zero publisher involvement ... so no sarcasm


Instead of pulling random untruths/numbers out of a hat, try Google, I hear it's nice this time of year.
 

kbrickley

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Instead of pulling random untruths/numbers out of a hat, try Google, I hear it's nice this time of year.

And Google indicates he has collected 70 million ... I have a Kickstarter account so I know he has only collected 2 million there ... so back to my original point ... stop using this project to pick on Kickstarter because only 3% of his cash came from there ... namaste :cool:
 

PersonalJ

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Derek Smart is a fucking moron and if he says its true, that just makes it more certainly not true. I for one don't believe a word of it.

The claims about Sandi "Gardiner" and her lying about her MBA from UCLA seem to be accurate.
 

Wildace

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I'm not all that keen on Smart and the way he's trying to position himself as an uninvited SJW on behalf of SC backers, but you can't deny there's a fair amount of effort, research and dedication on his part.

The best that people who seek to discredit his rhetoric can come up with is a link to a Taylor Swift video. Good job.

Sorry but Derek does enough to discredit himself, he doesn't need my help to make his position in the gaming industry any more miserable.

All you need to do is shake off his comments and ignore them.

So in this case, a Taylor Swift video is very much appropriate, when it comes to anything Derek Smart related.

Derek is a troll, will always be a troll and will always be treated as a troll, until he does something to change public perception of him self like i dont know, actually release a decent game, he is always going to look like a jealous cry baby that got out done by Chris Roberts.
 

DPI

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"Reorganizing" is business speak for layoffs LOTS of layoffs usually when the company is going south in a last ditch attempt to fend off chapter 11

No you see we're recalibrating our tiger teams to get them realigned with our core ship sale initiatives. . With this recalibrationwe invariably maximize our infinitely reconfigurable space yachts for sale. That is an amazing achievement considering our working conditions! The strategic six-sigma, distributed re-sizing factor can be summed up in one word: B2C, next-generation, space, compelling. Think nano-efficient.

The entire remaining staff is literally just 3D modeling ships now for "limited" sale. There is no game now, only the ships. It's fucking beautiful!
 

Elios

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No you see we're recalibrating our tiger teams to get them realigned with our core ship sale initiatives. . With this recalibrationwe invariably maximize our infinitely reconfigurable space yachts for sale. That is an amazing achievement considering our working conditions! The strategic six-sigma, distributed re-sizing factor can be summed up in one word: B2C, next-generation, space, compelling. Think nano-efficient.

The entire remaining staff is literally just 3D modeling ships now for "limited" sale. There is no game now, only the ships. It's fucking beautiful!

lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyV_UG60dD4
 

Savi

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seems there are alot more people that just love to hate shit these days, some would call them trolls, could be they just really get off on hating everything they don't like

:/
 

Pringle

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20-30 million, that's a 50% increase. Your whole post is sarcasm, right.

You do realize the majority of the funding for this project, came outside of Kickstarter, right? People weren't spending hundreds, even thousands, of dollars on ships sold through Kickstarter. They were buying them from the SC website. He was going to rape people of their money regardless of whether or not the kickstarter succeeded.
 

Wildace

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He was going to rape people of their money regardless of whether or not the kickstarter succeeded.

When did the rape start? Because so far everything has been consensual and optional wallet sex.

CiG has never forced anyone into opening their wallets.

The Preorder cost of the game has always been hovering around $30-35 that is all that has ever been required to get the full experience. Anyone paying more than that has done so willingly to help support the game and make it better in the long run, or maybe they perceived spending more as a way to save time to get into a ship they actually want to fly faster rather than having to earn it in game. But no one ever forced them to do so.
 

mashie

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seems there are alot more people that just love to hate shit these days, some would call them trolls, could be they just really get off on hating everything they don't like

:/

Actually, some people just like to point and laugh at others spending hundreds or even thousands on virtual ships that may never leave their virtual hangars.
 

kbrickley

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seems there are alot more people that just love to hate shit these days, some would call them trolls, could be they just really get off on hating everything they don't like

:/

Well, both Star Citizen and Kickstarter are paradigm shifts in how we view software development and those don't come without resistance or risk (and there is plenty of both). There are currently four methods of financing software development and they all have pros and cons:

Publisher - this is the traditional model we are all familiar with and people seem to have a love/hate relationship with it ... it's Pros include deep pockets (publishers have lots of money to throw at titles), support (they are a big business and can afford to offer product support), mass market products (since they want maximum return for their investment they are going to encourage titles to meet the widest possible audience needs/wants ... its Cons include monetization (they want to see a return, preferably a high one, so they encourage things like subscriptions, IAP, and DLC to get maximum revenue), lack of vision (most publishers are big bureaucratic companies so they are not used to cutting edge ideas), mass market appeal (since they want the biggest audience for biggest returns they often aren't interested in supporting smaller titles), IP ownership (publisher money comes at a big cost, usually the IP that is being developed will be owned by them to do with it as they see fit)

Venture Capital - this is another traditional model that people are less aware of ... it's Pros include deep pockets (they can kick off a new company with tens of millions of capital or hundreds to get them started), more hands off than publishers (they are funding the company and not individual products so they are less likely to interfere with software development or IP ownership) ... its Cons include revenue and profit focused (they want the developer to go public and sell the company or stock so they can see their return, and they expect financial goals that support this), little interest in titles beyond revenue (they want the company to be sold eventually so they care little for the quality of their activities or the sanctity of their IP unless it interferes with that goal ... they dislike controversial titles that might damage the reputation of the company and reduce the sale value)

Company money - some companies (Blizzard, Bethesda, etc) have cash reserves of their own and can fund their own development ... Pros include IP protection (since it is their money they can protect the value and direction of their IP), total control by the developer (since it is their money they are in control of how it is spent without outside interference) ... Cons include higher risk (since they are putting up their own cash reserves they risk the company if the product fails), smaller budget (if you are not Blizzard you might have to take home loans or business loans to finance development as an Indie developer ... this will be a much smaller budget than what other choices can offer and with the added risk element from above)

User money (Kickstarter or direct sales) - this is the new emerging model that is now possible due to better Internet interaction with users ... Pros include less risk (it isn't your money and there are few penalties for failure beyond reputation so your risk is much less), retention of IP (since you aren't drinking from the publisher well you don't have to give up your IP for funds), no company interference (since this is not venture capital money your company and company direction remain your own to determine), better quality for Indie development (you usually have access to more money than you could get on your own so you can invest more money into the product), user interaction (publishers discourage too much prelaunch interaction to protect the value of the IP ... since social funding depends on interaction you get direct feedback on things that are working or need tweaking while development is still occurring and things are easier to fix) ... Cons include project planning risk (since you are totally on your own, you are also dependent on your project management skills to execute successfully ... developers like inXile and Obsidian have been very professional here ... others less so and they have had more problems staying within budgets), product risk for the users (you are often funding products that don't exist and relying on the developer to operate within the budget they are given ... inexperienced or careless developers can get out of their depth very quickly), scope creep (since a successful user funding attempt usually requires stretch goals it is possible for a developer to over commit and get more goals than the money allows them to achieve)

Bottom line is we live in interesting times for software and game development ... love it or hate it, it will be interesting to see how this whole exercise plays out
 
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