Sorry, no RTX2080 performance for $300 on Navi

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Brian_B

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Well if you didn’t realize that AMD would have to price at similar performance levels to current nVidia pricing, you don’t understand how business works. So MSRPs are going to be higher than previous generations because nVidias are high. Maybe they won’t be “as high” as nVidia, but they certainly aren’t going to price a competitor to a $600+ card at $300 - the shareholders would revolt since they could price it at $450-500 and come up much better on profit, even with slightly lower sales.

And even at that, competing with a 2070 is a good spot. Not a lot of folks outside of forums like this are popping for those $600+ cards anyway.

Then if we get lucky and AMD does well, we get a price war between the two and prices fall after release.

Also, I can’t speak for anyone else but I’m not concerned about hardware ray tracing in the least right now. It’s like being worried you don’t have Ageia PhysX hardware...
 

Stoly

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Well if you didn’t realize that AMD would have to price at similar performance levels to current nVidia pricing, you don’t understand how business works. So MSRPs are going to be higher than previous generations because nVidias are high. Maybe they won’t be “as high” as nVidia, but they certainly aren’t going to price a competitor to a $600+ card at $300 - the shareholders would revolt since they could price it at $450-500 and come up much better on profit, even with slightly lower sales.

Then if we get lucky and AMD does well, we get a price war between the two and prices fall after release.

Actually, both the RTX 2060 and 2070 are "cheaper" as of now. So hopefully the $399-$499 prices are not final.
 

Gideon

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N4CR

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Because the hype train media killed it. Not AMD.
This. I never got on the Navi hype train. There is no way they are doing some 2080Ti/2080 killer on a small chip with ass-old GCN, and also why I pulled trigger on a $400 vega late last year.

2070/2060 performance for $400 is already available in form of Vega though, but it costs a bit more to make.
 

FrgMstr

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Because the hype train media killed it. Not AMD.

This is par for the course. Name a forthcoming AMD/ATi release that has never been killed due to the hype train in the past 12 years.
Let's stay on the actual topic and keep the BS to ourselves so we stop destroying every AMD tech thread that is written. Thanks.
 

XoR_

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This is par for the course. Name a forthcoming AMD/ATi release that has never been killed due to the hype train in the past 12 years.
Hype have nothing to do with failed AMD product launches

This card by all means will be worse than NV offerings from previous generation and have terrible pricing of current NV generation so how could it not fail?
AMD GPU division sucks (n)
 

DejaWiz

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According to "https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/" ...isn't that site the China equivalent of WCCFtech when it comes to computers/electronics?

Alas, I'm still interested in Navi XT/3080 to replace my aging 980Ti. We'll see soon enough!
 

viivo

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But nobody really, seriously, honestly believed that AMD would release a $300/400 GPU near 2080 performance this or any of the next 5 years, right? Especially after the VII which is below that performance threshhold for the same price. Come on, people aren't that desperately deluded, right?
 

Stoly

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But nobody really, seriously, honestly believed that AMD would release a $300/400 GPU near 2080 performance this or any of the next 5 years, right? Especially after the VII which is below that performance threshhold for the same price. Come on, people aren't that desperately deluded, right?

I guess they are... :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

DejaWiz

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But nobody really, seriously, honestly believed that AMD would release a $300/400 GPU near 2080 performance this or any of the next 5 years, right? Especially after the VII which is below that performance threshhold for the same price. Come on, people aren't that desperately deluded, right?

Keep in mind that R-VII uses very expensive 16GB of HBM2, which substantially drives the price per unit up, despite its performance vs the competition. Navi's GDDR6 will help keep costs down, which makes sense for these "new/rumored" $400 and $500 price points.

Even if these are the confirmed price points, then that is going to make them a very attractive alternative to the more expensive 2070 and 2080.
However: *if* Navi won't support DXR, then AMD will *also* be competing with their own RX series and nVidia's 1600 series, which currently tops out at around $300 for a 1660Ti.
 
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Pieter3dnow

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But nobody really, seriously, honestly believed that AMD would release a $300/400 GPU near 2080 performance this or any of the next 5 years, right? Especially after the VII which is below that performance threshhold for the same price. Come on, people aren't that desperately deluded, right?
The worst case of apples and oranges.

Radeon VII is a die shrink of a compute card from last generation Instinct series. That card was or is not representative of anything in this matter since there was no consumer version more or less planned (driver problems at launch & cooler solution that does not scream we planned this very well).
Radeon VII is a card with 16gb HBM2 that is the reason for the price.

Actually the next few years will proof that AMD can do things and RTG should get enough for R&D (3 year cycle) to allow some progress, that you and many others already accepted that overpriced Nvidia hardware is your new norm does not mean that the rest of us have to accept it.
 

Auer

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The worst case of apples and oranges.

Radeon VII is a die shrink of a compute card from last generation Instinct series. That card was or is not representative of anything in this matter since there was no consumer version more or less planned (driver problems at launch & cooler solution that does not scream we planned this very well).
Radeon VII is a card with 16gb HBM2 that is the reason for the price.

Actually the next few years will proof that AMD can do things and RTG should get enough for R&D (3 year cycle) to allow some progress, that you and many others already accepted that overpriced Nvidia hardware is your new norm does not mean that the rest of us have to accept it.

81.2%. Nvidia's Market share. Right now the good folks at AMD are praying for another Crypto Mining Boon.

Anyone who thinks AMD want's to lower prices for the dirty masses is a bit.....delusional...
 

Stoly

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The worst case of apples and oranges.

Radeon VII is a die shrink of a compute card from last generation Instinct series. That card was or is not representative of anything in this matter since there was no consumer version more or less planned (driver problems at launch & cooler solution that does not scream we planned this very well).
Radeon VII is a card with 16gb HBM2 that is the reason for the price.

Actually the next few years will proof that AMD can do things and RTG should get enough for R&D (3 year cycle) to allow some progress, that you and many others already accepted that overpriced Nvidia hardware is your new norm does not mean that the rest of us have to accept it.

Well, the last few years have been proof that AMD can't do things. I really don't see that changing anytime soon. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong, but I think Intel has a better chance to go against nvidia than AMD.
 

travm

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If the new mainstream GPU costs 300+, what goes on the $150 to $200 bracket?
This does not bode well for me upgrading any time soon.

Vegas off mining farms?
 

Chimpee

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If the new mainstream GPU costs 300+, what goes on the $150 to $200 bracket?
This does not bode well for me upgrading any time soon.

Vegas off mining farms?

RX580 since it is already at that price bracket.
 

travm

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RX580 since it is already at that price bracket.
I already have a 580... What kind of an upgrade is that.
Nevermind it's just a refreshed 480 from years gone by. I miss the days when the whole product stack would get updated. But that's been a long time gone I guess.
Also, wasn't Navi supposed to replace the 580?
 
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pendragon1

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didn't we know this a couple weeks ago?

But nobody really, seriously, honestly believed that AMD would release a $300/400 GPU near 2080 performance this or any of the next 5 years, right? Especially after the VII which is below that performance threshold for the same price. Come on, people aren't that desperately deluded, right?
well, they EXPECT it to be. so if it isn't, AMD are a bunch of lying assholes, right?!
 

harmattan

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I was yelling in the long-running navi post that pricing was going to be in line with nV, no way it was going to be less. I guess no one listens when you tell them the sky is blue.

In any case, this is a crying shame. The price/performance needle hasn't budged for 2 years.
 

sirmonkey1985

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If the new mainstream GPU costs 300+, what goes on the $150 to $200 bracket?
This does not bode well for me upgrading any time soon.

Vegas off mining farms?

RX 580, RX 590, RX 570, GTX 1660, 1650.. i'd say the 150-200 dollar price range is covered pretty nicely given how small of a gain most of the RTX and navi lineup ended up being.
 
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Brian_B

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RX 580, RX 590, RX 570, GTX 1660, 1650.. i'd say the 150-200 dollar price range is covered pretty nicely given how small of a gain most of the RTX and navi lineup ended up being.

Well, back in the day, a new generation of cards meant that the performance/price ratio would get bumped up. You would have the odd gap in the product stack filled with a rebadge, but by and large you could purchase more performance per dollar.

At least until recently. So sure... all that stuff is currently being serv d by current Polaris stuff, but we want to see if Navi can improve on that - that’s the point of a new generation. Whereas Turing largely crapped all over it - it did raise the bar for performance but did very little on the value side of that equation.
 

sirmonkey1985

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Well, back in the day, a new generation of cards meant that the performance/price ratio would get bumped up. You would have the odd gap in the product stack filled with a rebadge, but by and large you could purchase more performance per dollar.

At least until recently. So sure... all that stuff is currently being serv d by current Polaris stuff, but we want to see if Navi can improve on that - that’s the point of a new generation. Whereas Turing largely crapped all over it - it did raise the bar for performance but did very little on the value side of that equation.

those days are long gone.. we're no longer going to see those huge gains between generations anymore..
 

XoR_

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Well, back in the day, a new generation of cards meant that the performance/price ratio would get bumped up. You would have the odd gap in the product stack filled with a rebadge, but by and large you could purchase more performance per dollar.

At least until recently. So sure... all that stuff is currently being serv d by current Polaris stuff, but we want to see if Navi can improve on that - that’s the point of a new generation. Whereas Turing largely crapped all over it - it did raise the bar for performance but did very little on the value side of that equation.
And it looks Navi will do even less without even having anything to justify higher price.

For example GTX 1080 owner would have some reason to get RTX 2070 but zero reasons to get NAVI
I would understand something like 400$. Hell, even 450$ just to be a little cheaper but 500$? In this case they need to be hella lot faster than RTX 2070 in rasterization and this is not going to happen because Radeon VII siths in the middle of 2070 and 2080 and supposedly will be still the fastest AMD card...
 

Pieter3dnow

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Well, the last few years have been proof that AMD can't do things. I really don't see that changing anytime soon. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong, but I think Intel has a better chance to go against nvidia than AMD.

It is simple the gpu development takes about 3 years and 3 years ago AMD barely had enough funds to prioritize R&D for the gpu so you know when companies can do more and when they can't.

You know Intel has money and people enough to do certain things but if it was so easy as you describe it here there would be tens of companies making GPU for gaming and you guessed it already there aren't.

When you judge AMD on their GPU performance find out what their budget was for R&D 3 years ago and then compare with Nvidia then scratch your head about the comments you are making here.

Too many people pretending that you can just make a gpu and because of whatever thought process is going on it will beat Nvidia , it does not work that way and I will spoil it for you it is not going to work that way either.
 

Pieter3dnow

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81.2%. Nvidia's Market share. Right now the good folks at AMD are praying for another Crypto Mining Boon.

Anyone who thinks AMD want's to lower prices for the dirty masses is a bit.....delusional...
Anyone who thinks that overpriced Nvidia hardware is the new norm in pricing has been thoroughly brainwashed by Nvidia marketing apparatus.
 

jbc029

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And it looks Navi will do even less without even having anything to justify higher price.

For example GTX 1080 owner would have some reason to get RTX 2070 but zero reasons to get NAVI
I would understand something like 400$. Hell, even 450$ just to be a little cheaper but 500$? In this case they need to be hella lot faster than RTX 2070 in rasterization and this is not going to happen because Radeon VII siths in the middle of 2070 and 2080 and supposedly will be still the fastest AMD card...

As a 1080 owner, what reason was there to get a 2070 again? The meh dlss support that you just have to "believe real hard" look better thsn resolution upscaling or the slideshow rtx effects? I forget which.

Anf saying R7 sits between 2070 and 2080 is like saying V56 sits between 1070 and 1080. Technically true, but it's a lot closer to the latter than the former.
 

travm

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What are the odds amd fabricated this leak just so that Lisa sui could hold up a card and say $199?
 

Pieter3dnow

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What are the odds amd fabricated this leak just so that Lisa sui could hold up a card and say $199?
But we are all getting fatigued by now from all of the stuff that is in the news/rumours.
We have been hearing only good stuff from AMD so far and the timing is all wrong. Not sure if you have kids but trying telling them a year in advance on how special their Christmas gift will be ;) .

That part where it keeps our attention span and the part where we keep hearing things is where we will drop off when the times comes to purchase the very special item we been hearing about for so long that it might not live up to expectations .........
 

Stoly

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As a 1080 owner, what reason was there to get a 2070 again? The meh dlss support that you just have to "believe real hard" look better thsn resolution upscaling or the slideshow rtx effects? I forget which.

Anf saying R7 sits between 2070 and 2080 is like saying V56 sits between 1070 and 1080. Technically true, but it's a lot closer to the latter than the former.

I think both VEGA and R7 performance varies too much. Vega56 can beat a GTX1080 on a couple of games and lag behind a GTX1070 in others (I'd say it's more like trading blows with a GTX1070Ti), and R7 is slower than the RTX2070 in a few games but can come close to RTX2080Ti in some cases.
 

Stoly

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What are the odds amd fabricated this leak just so that Lisa sui could hold up a card and say $199?

I recall Jensen holding the RTX2080Ti and saying it was $499 and everyone went berzerk. Then reality slapped us in the face. :D:D:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

Mode13

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I'm getting pretty close to just grabbing another b stock 980Ti to go SLI and call it a year.

The few games I do actually play seem to scale just fine with it to well above 2080 performance. Only thing holding me back is lack of freesync support and fear of microstutter, so maybe sell the 980 Ti and grab a 1080 Ti.

Not that I'm saying navi is "bad". Just that I'm not paying these huge prices for the boosts I'll be getting. I'd imagine my 980 Ti @ 1500mhz isn't very far behind a 2060, which will also match the "3080 Pro". Anything above a 2070 is out of my range of willingness to buy.

/random rant
 

XoR_

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As a 1080 owner, what reason was there to get a 2070 again? The meh dlss support that you just have to "believe real hard" look better thsn resolution upscaling or the slideshow rtx effects? I forget which.

Anf saying R7 sits between 2070 and 2080 is like saying V56 sits between 1070 and 1080. Technically true, but it's a lot closer to the latter than the former.
Are you seriously still complaining about RTX and DLSS at this point?
Currently there is no reason to believe highest performing Navi to have anything to offer over eg. Vega 64 than slightly rasterization performance and still worse performance/power ratio than Nvidia cards from years ago.

And personally I think Navi XT will have as much RTX 2070 performance as Radeon VII have RTX 2080 performance ... so it will be complete fail
 

jbc029

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Are you seriously still complaining about RTX and DLSS at this point?
Currently there is no reason to believe highest performing Navi to have anything to offer over eg. Vega 64 than slightly rasterization performance and still worse performance/power ratio than Nvidia cards from years ago.

And personally I think Navi XT will have as much RTX 2070 performance as Radeon VII have RTX 2080 performance ... so it will be complete fail

Aside from DLSS and RTX, *there is no reason to move to Turing*. At all.

Regarding power consumption...I'm an enthusiast. My 850w PSU doesn't give a shit how much any single GPU pulls (unless I tried to power that new KP 2080ti). 225W or 350W...don't care.
 

XoR_

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Aside from DLSS and RTX, *there is no reason to move to Turing*. At all.

Regarding power consumption...I'm an enthusiast. My 850w PSU doesn't give a shit how much any single GPU pulls (unless I tried to power that new KP 2080ti). 225W or 350W...don't care.
Fastest Turing card is faster than fastest Pascal card
Fastest AMD card is on par with fastest Pascal card
215065_relative-performance_2560-1440.png

Of course depending on tests and resolution Radeon VII might move but if anything not by much and not necessarily in "faster" direction...
Drivers did nothing to improve situation, at least relatively speaking.

If Navi is supposed to be RTX 2070 competition then it must be the same damn core as Radeon VII have but with changed memory controller to cheaper GDDR6 (or HBM2 but only 8GB) which also means half the bandwidth and thus lower performance. Not very charismatic design...
And again, if it is supposed to be RTX 2070 competition the same way Radeon VII is supposed to be RTX 2080 equal then it means Navi XT will be slower than RTX 2070 at rasterization... and if they add DXR support it will be true slideshow.

Power consumption might not matter but all this "enthusiast" talk would make any sense if AMD was competing on high-end and just happen to have higher power consumption. As it is AMD release GCN based cards for 7 (fuc*king) years and each of them under-perform and have higher power consumption. Well, HD7970 was pretty good... until NV released GTX 680 that by chip designation was intended to be GTX 660 but because AMD underdelivered so badly they could get away with this move and even get almost universal praise for great card they released...

All signs point to sad truth: this year is lost for AMD on GPU front. Some people will get these cards and will be even happy with them but they could as well get NV card and have all these seemingly useless features and less heat and less power bill.
I really hope in the lab AMD is working hard on new GPU architecture that takes absolutely nothing from GCN because they were at this GCN bullshit for way too long already. NV never had architecture that stayed almost the same for that long. How is that even possible? Are they putting money from "swear jar" into R&D? ...wait, then GCN era would be over long time ago XD
 

Stoly

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Aside from DLSS and RTX, *there is no reason to move to Turing*. At all.

Regarding power consumption...I'm an enthusiast. My 850w PSU doesn't give a shit how much any single GPU pulls (unless I tried to power that new KP 2080ti). 225W or 350W...don't care.
I care. Less power comsumption means less heat, means cheaper PSU, more overclocking headroom while running cooler. And saving a few pesos on the powerbill.
 
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