Sony Is Struggling With PlayStation 5 Price Due to Costly Parts

DukenukemX

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talking about inflation since PS4 as if that should make a more expensive PS5 ok, is rubbish.

Pay doesn't generally match inflation and on top of that, cost of living is way up in many areas, since 2012. Nearly everything is more expensive.
Inflation matters if you happen to be the auto and housing market, where prices have gone beyond reasonable. For the rest of us, inflation is ignored.
The lower the price, the better. if these things cost more than $399, it could very well be a slow start.
The PS3 and Xbox One were both priced at $500 or more at launch, and both consoles had a bad start. Much worse for the Xbox One where it didn't even make it to the finish line. Also I can build a better PC for $700 with Windows 10, which is only $200 more than what these consoles could cost. Get too high in price and more people will go PC gaming.
 

vegeta535

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Inflation matters if you happen to be the auto and housing market, where prices have gone beyond reasonable. For the rest of us, inflation is ignored.

The PS3 and Xbox One were both priced at $500 or more at launch, and both consoles had a bad start. Much worse for the Xbox One where it didn't even make it to the finish line. Also I can build a better PC for $700 with Windows 10, which is only $200 more than what these consoles could cost. Get too high in price and more people will go PC gaming.
Most console players don't care about PC. To the average person building a PC is a daunting task. A decent prebuilt are stupid expensive compare to what a new console can give you.
 

Marees

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Revdarian

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Dudes this is from the blog like side of Bloomberg, just saying. In any case I doubt that the article writer really knows anything due to its record and he's just extrapolating what is known, memory prices are going up everywhere and thus console BOM is going up, he singles one over the other to make it more sensational and seasons it with "I heard it through the grapevine" and boom viral post.
 

Derangel

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auntjemima

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It not a iPhone. People believe they are a necessity. Console are not a necessity to majority of people.

I get your point, I really do, but I don't know a single person that doesn't have a console. I'm in my mid-30's and I don't exactly work with low life twat rockets that spend their whole lives sitting and playing video games.
 

UnknownSouljer

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I get your point, I really do, but I don't know a single person that doesn't have a console. I'm in my mid-30's and I don't exactly work with low life twat rockets that spend their whole lives sitting and playing video games.
https://hardforum.com/threads/sony-...e-due-to-costly-parts.1993028/post-1044497098Read my post. Less than 1% of people with a smartphone have a current gen console. There isn't any correlation you can draw between ownership of a phone and ownership of a console. That is over 3 standard deviations. Meaning it's statistically insignificant.
Apple sells more iPhones in a year than the lifetime of sales of the Switch, PS4, and XB1 combined. They sell almost 1.5x more in a year than the highest grossing console of all time the PS2. This isn't even considering how many phones Apple's competition sells. Mathematically there is no correlation between smartphone ownership and console ownership. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.
 
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auntjemima

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https://hardforum.com/threads/sony-...e-due-to-costly-parts.1993028/post-1044497098Read my post. Less than 1% of people with a smartphone have a current gen console. There isn't any correlation you can draw between ownership of a phone and ownership of a console.
Apple sells almost 1.5x more iPhones in a year than the lifetime of sales of the Switch, PS4, and XB1 combined. This isn't even considering how many phones Apple's competition sells. Mathematically there is no correlation between smartphone ownership and console ownership. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

I think the numbers are a bit skewed in the sense that a typical home with parents and three teenagers would have 5 cell phones but likely one console.

Definitely doesn't move it far enough towards my anecdotal evidence, I agree, but I don't think that 1% is any more accurate.
 

UnknownSouljer

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I think the numbers are a bit skewed in the sense that a typical home with parents and three teenagers would have 5 cell phones but likely one console.

Definitely doesn't move it far enough towards my anecdotal evidence, I agree, but I don't think that 1% is any more accurate.
You're also forgetting the reverse of that. You can have single people with all 3 consoles as well. Or you can have situations like my friends that have that have multiple of the same console in the same houshold (like multiple Switches or XB's in different rooms). Even if I moved the number for the sake of argument to 10% (a 10x increase), it would still be statistically insignificant. I would have much greater odds measuring some other measurement than using smartphones as a measurement of console ownership. Either way, the math doesn't support a correlation between smartphones and consoles.
 
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DukenukemX

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Most console players don't care about PC. To the average person building a PC is a daunting task. A decent prebuilt are stupid expensive compare to what a new console can give you.
Most console players aren't good shoppers then, because I found a $800 Pre-Built for $800 that has a RTX 2060 in it. I also found this for sub $700, but that's not equivalent to the next gen consoles. Still pretty good though. We're a good 9-10 months away before any of these consoles are released, and that's enough time for Nvidia to release hopefully better cheaper GPU's as well as AMD and Intel. If these consoles are $500+ then they'll certainly have a slow start, which could be the end of console gaming as we know it.
 

Derangel

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Most console players aren't good shoppers then, because I found a $800 Pre-Built for $800 that has a RTX 2060 in it. I also found this for sub $700, but that's not equivalent to the next gen consoles. Still pretty good though. We're a good 9-10 months away before any of these consoles are released, and that's enough time for Nvidia to release hopefully better cheaper GPU's as well as AMD and Intel. If these consoles are $500+ then they'll certainly have a slow start, which could be the end of console gaming as we know it.
The reality is, most people don't want gaming PCs. Doesn't matter if you could buy a PC for the same price as a console that's 2x as powerful and played every single console game, you won't get people to switch. Even with as computer-like as consoles have become there is still a world of difference between the ease of use of a console and the occasional hassle of a gaming PC.
 

harmattan

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I don't want another PS4/XBO generation that's a stripped down, noisy, middle-of-the-road console that we have to suffer with for 6 years. I seriously hope Sony and MS don't skimp on things just to hit a $399 price point.
No doubt. I'd much, much rather spend $100-200 more for hardware that's not going to be massively outdated less than a year after the console hits the shelves. The PS4 and XBO used a seriously anemic CPU and a middling GPU (gimped 7850/7770) at release. A far cry from the cutting-edge hardware of most past consoles e.g. PS3, Xbox 360. The only thing somewhat decent for the time was the shared 8GB of DDR5 in the PS4.
 

DukenukemX

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The reality is, most people don't want gaming PCs. Doesn't matter if you could buy a PC for the same price as a console that's 2x as powerful and played every single console game, you won't get people to switch. Even with as computer-like as consoles have become there is still a world of difference between the ease of use of a console and the occasional hassle of a gaming PC.
People who stick with consoles do so for reasons but I doubt it's because of hassle. I think it's mostly because either their friends use it and don't want to lose their friends or because they're afraid of the stigmas of PC gaming. Stigmas like not being able to game with their favorite gamepad or on a TV sitting on a coach. Best stigma is the idea that you need to spend a fortune on a gaming PC. If PC gamers can talk and play with console gamers then I feel that alone would make the transition to PC less punishing.
 

Sycraft

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Some technical details on DRAM less SSD drives:
Ya well... they aren't telling the whole story here. The DRAM on SSDs isn't so much for caching data. They do that (though not always, on enterprise systems drive cache may be turned off for various reasons) but the big reason is caching the page map. The biggest thing an SSD controller does, the reason it is so powerful is to keep track of all the flash so it can properly wear-level writes, erase flash ready to be re-used, that kind of thing. So that means that there is a translation between what the computer sees, and what is on the drive. The controller then maintain the mapping of the actual flash pages to the blocks exposed to the computer. For best performance, access to this information needs to be really fast, faster than what you get from flash, so they load it in to RAM on the SSD itself.

Now the idea behind the host caching is to use memory in the system, rather than on the drive for this. Ok, fair enough, should work fine for the most part... But it isn't better than a SSD with its own DRAM, it is just better than one with no DRAM and no access to host memory. There's a few downsides:

1) You have to devote system memory to it. However much of the page map it wants cached, you have to give up that much memory. Not a massive deal, but still means that you have more of the "RAM reserved for OS" going on for a console.
2) It has to contend with system memory access. If it is storing in system RAM, that means it is on the same bus as everything else that goes after system RAM, which includes the GPU in consoles. So if that is getting hit hard, there can be delays in getting it data as opposed to a dedicated chip on its board.
3) Writes may have more latency, or risk data loss. With onboard RAM, an SSD can make sure it has sufficient hold-up capacitors to flush its cache to flash in the event of power loss. Thus you don't have to write the page table, or even that data, completely to flash before acknowledging the write. Can't do that with host RAM. Not a big deal for consoles, just noting it.

I'm not opposed to it, and it may well save some money for the consoles and that's great, but don't be confused by these guys pretending like it is a performance improvement. It's not. It is a cost-savings measure that mitigates the performance loss normally associated with it.
 

sfsuphysics

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No doubt. I'd much, much rather spend $100-200 more for hardware that's not going to be massively outdated less than a year after the console hits the shelves. The PS4 and XBO used a seriously anemic CPU and a middling GPU (gimped 7850/7770) at release. A far cry from the cutting-edge hardware of most past consoles e.g. PS3, Xbox 360. The only thing somewhat decent for the time was the shared 8GB of DDR5 in the PS4.
The problem I have it's paying for hardware that doesn't affect how good the system is. I mean cameras so a VR headset can be used? Great how many games are going to do that? Remember when xbox (forget which model) had Kinect built in and had to be there? MS changing their tune down the road but still added cost to the system, that really didn't add much to how well games looked/ played. I mean this is nothing new, the original NES had ROB and a light gun, ROB was for all of 2 games, and light gun maybe not many more but it added to the cost of the system.

Seems console makers are in this rut of saving money by not putting an extra controller in, which is fine, but then negate that savings by putting in niche hardware that will really only benefit a tiny fraction of what it can do
 

Verge

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The PS3 was still underpriced at $500/$600. It should have costed over $700. Sony lost money on every console and it nearly bankrupted them. It was the console that got Kaz Hizarai fired. It was a massive Pyrrhic victory. Sony's gaming division literally almost sunk the entire company. They learned a lot of lessons from that. A) people aren't willing to pay just any price. And B) selling consoles that lose money is a losing strategy.



The one that sold the most is the iPhone XR and then the 11. Most people are not buying $1000 phones despite your fantasy. Most people aren't buying $600 consoles. Most people aren't even buying $300 consoles. You still haven't addressed how one item is viewed as a necessity of life with nearly 100% market penetration (as in, virtually everyone owns a cellphone of some variety) whereas a Playstation is a gaming device that only a fraction of gamers own, not even 100% of that particular market.

It's entirely different markets. Even if phones costed $5000 and people bought them, it wouldn't prove that the market would bear $600 game consoles. I might as well say: Mercedes Benz sells cars for $100k, so people can afford a $1000 console. Those two markets DO NOT RELATE AT ALL.
Swing and a huge fucking miss. I'm comparing inflationary prices over the last 7 years.

How you are trying to link smartphone inflation to game console cross purchases... to automobiles..? Bro take a valium and chill.
 

UnknownSouljer

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Swing and a huge fucking miss. I'm comparing inflationary prices over the last 7 years.
The prices of consoles with inflation have more or less stayed constant. This had been discussed in this thread.

How you are trying to link smartphone inflation to game console cross purchases... to automobiles..? Bro take a valium and chill.
That was the point. Did you read what I wrote? Those things don’t relate.
 

Verge

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That was the point. Did you read what I wrote? Those things don’t relate.
I did read what you wrote, and it's all irrelevant. Seems you like to make up an argument i didn't make, then try to disprove it.

I agree with you, those sectors are not necessarily correlated. But then again, i never said they were.
 

Riccochet

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People out there paying almost $300 for pair of Jordan's. They can charge $500-600 for a game console and get away with it. First adopters always pay the bleeding edge toll.
 

Brackle

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main difference is that you have to actually build it yourself, which most people won't or can't...those specialty PC builders overcharge you
I would also say part laziness too, with so much info on the web, YouTube videos which show you how to build a pc, that almost isn’t an excuse anymore.
 

sfsuphysics

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People out there paying almost $300 for pair of Jordan's.
But don't the people who do that do it as kind of an "investment"? Granted I don't know, because it sounds fucking stupid to me, but I thought they bought the "limited edition" ones (that come out every fucking year, with a variety of different NBA players associated with them) and they hold onto them until a year or two later and resell them. Of course, maybe no one does because it is as retarded as it sounds.
 

Derangel

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I would also say part laziness too, with so much info on the web, YouTube videos which show you how to build a pc, that almost isn’t an excuse anymore.
Some people just don’t care to learn how or have better things to do with their time than put dozens of hours into something that isn’t their hobby.
 

Derangel

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People out there paying almost $300 for pair of Jordan's. They can charge $500-600 for a game console and get away with it. First adopters always pay the bleeding edge toll.
You can resell Jordons for a shit load more than you buy them for. You can’t do the same with a console.
 

chameleoneel

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Yeah there's.....far too much to unpack around the culture of Jordans, and shoes in general. Its not really a good counterpoint to pose against the price of a console.
 

cybereality

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Yeah, well, people also spend $1,000 on a Samsung phone and then balk at a mobile game charging $5.
 

limitedaccess

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The value proposition, whether it be monetary or things such as time, is highly variable. While people on communities such as this might on average (both median and mean) game every day (possibly for hours) that isn't really representative of the entire potential market that these businesses cater to.

A $500 console for someone who games daily and might buy dozens of games over ownership vs. someone who might only use it once a week (if that) and buy only a couple of games vs. someone who might use it at all but just buys it for their kid(s). Just an example of how they'd view the value of that completely different but the business (Sony/MS) need to price it and have a business model in mind for people in those 3 groups (and many others). The latter 2 groups for example may not even buy enough in software/service/accessory sales to subsidize the loss in hardware sales if price isn't high enough above cost.
 

Krazy925

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But don't the people who do that do it as kind of an "investment"? Granted I don't know, because it sounds fucking stupid to me, but I thought they bought the "limited edition" ones (that come out every fucking year, with a variety of different NBA players associated with them) and they hold onto them until a year or two later and resell them. Of course, maybe no one does because it is as retarded as it sounds.
Looks at my rolexes, classic car and huge vintage video game collection.

Yeah! I can’t believe people would buy something they like that holds and appreciates in value. So retarded.

Do some of you guys even think?

I don’t like sneakers I don’t know why people buy them./s
I can’t wait until people find out about women and handbags and that whole racket or actions figures or literally almost anything.

Imagine someone so stupid they buy a $3k processor or a $1000+GPU oops here comes like 20% of the board. Not only that but they sell them at a loss in 6 months!OMZG they’re even dumber than sneakerheads.
 

DukenukemX

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Yeah, well, people also spend $1,000 on a Samsung phone and then balk at a mobile game charging $5.
I think it's because people spent so much on a phone that they expect the apps to be free.
TXaVAYN.jpg

The value proposition, whether it be monetary or things such as time, is highly variable. While people on communities such as this might on average (both median and mean) game every day (possibly for hours) that isn't really representative of the entire potential market that these businesses cater to.

A $500 console for someone who games daily and might buy dozens of games over ownership vs. someone who might only use it once a week (if that) and buy only a couple of games vs. someone who might use it at all but just buys it for their kid(s). Just an example of how they'd view the value of that completely different but the business (Sony/MS) need to price it and have a business model in mind for people in those 3 groups (and many others). The latter 2 groups for example may not even buy enough in software/service/accessory sales to subsidize the loss in hardware sales if price isn't high enough above cost.
I think it has more to do with economics. A person with money to spare won't have an issue with this, as they probably own every console plus a PC. People with limited funds like most people will have to think about this carefully, and the world economy is not doing well right now, especially when many expect there to be a recession sometime this year. A $500 price tag might have a number of different effects, depending on the type of person. Some people who already have a PS4 might not upgrade to the PS5, and if new games get released onto the PS4 with 30 fps and 720P then I think most people will be fine with this. Some people might wait until they procure $500. Some people might see this as the best time to get into PC gaming. Some people might see this as the best time to quit gaming all together.

Either way a $500 price tag won't be doing the PS5 any favors. We've seen this sorta thing with the PS3 to PS4 migration where there was a flood of remasters and remakes. Remember the PS4 and Xbox One were released after the 2008 recesion, which might have effected adoption. Not many developers want to invest in making games exclusive to the PS5 if the install base is small. If the Xbox Series X is cheaper by even $50 then that's where people will migrate to. Also if the price does get too high then PC gaming becomes an option as well.
 

sfsuphysics

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Looks at my rolexes, classic car and huge vintage video game collection.

Yeah! I can’t believe people would buy something they like that holds and appreciates in value. So retarded.

Do some of you guys even think?

I don’t like sneakers I don’t know why people buy them./s
Oh gee, you are comparing something that is already old, rare, no longer produced, or something that is just straight up disgustingly expensive with shoes ... are you buying PS4 games hoping they appreciate in value? Got that 2020 Toyota Corolla just waiting for the day "classic" gets slapped on it? how about a Casio watch? something a little less up front investment, but boy howdy it'll sure appreciate in value!

I simply do not get how a pair of sneakers became something that was an "investment", it's not that I don't like them, I wear them all the time. No need to fucking coming down on me so much and sound like such a jerk.
 

Exavior

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Well if my internet subsidized me a console by simply having me remain in a contract for 2 years, I'd have a next gen console too :D
It's not about subsidizing the phones. It's about not paying for the phone in one lump sum but instead spread out over a couple of years and just added into the phone bill. That's how so many people are getting these really high dollar phones they wouldn't be able to afford otherwise. You can't do that with a console, though.
go look up Microsoft All Access. For a flat rate you get an Xbox and Game Pass. So that exist for game consoles.
 

VIC-20

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I don't know if any of the rules from last gen launch apply anymore.

Simple fact is console gamers have changed.

https://www.gamesparks.com/blog/the-average-gamer-how-the-demographics-have-shifted/
Lots of 35+ year olds and women, which may not even bat an eye over 100 or 200 dollars extra on their favorite hobby. Look at the games themselves, prices have grown dramatically and people are buying them.

Deluxe edition games are hitting about $130 CAD / $100 USD. Collectors Editions run up to $350 CAD and they sellout on preorders alone.

You can't use the past $100 Microsoft Xbone price difference freakout as any kind of example, because the controversy of the proposed always online game authentication, kinect and TV!TV!TV! sent potential Xbone buyers straight to Sony. If neither of the other things happened, and it was just a straight $100 price difference, I suspect it wouldn't have been such a big deal. Xbox 360 was hugely popular.

You can't look at the XB1X or PS4 Pro sluggish sales as a comparison, because nobody required them and gamers knew it. PS5 games will require a PS5.

I suspect Sony and MS will have no problem selling this gen at higher prices. We aren't talking about mom and dads getting something for the kiddies anymore. We are talking about 40 year olds that buy $60-$100K pickup trucks and $150 leggings getting something for themselves.
 

vegeta535

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I don't know if any of the rules from last gen launch apply anymore.

Simple fact is console gamers have changed.

https://www.gamesparks.com/blog/the-average-gamer-how-the-demographics-have-shifted/
Lots of 35+ year olds and women, which may not even bat an eye over 100 or 200 dollars extra on their favorite hobby. Look at the games themselves, prices have grown dramatically and people are buying them.

Deluxe edition games are hitting about $130 CAD / $100 USD. Collectors Editions run up to $350 CAD and they sellout on preorders alone.

You can't use the past $100 Microsoft Xbone price difference freakout as any kind of example, because the controversy of the proposed always online game authentication, kinect and TV!TV!TV! sent potential Xbone buyers straight to Sony. If neither of the other things happened, and it was just a straight $100 price difference, I suspect it wouldn't have been such a big deal. Xbox 360 was hugely popular.

You can't look at the XB1X or PS4 Pro sluggish sales as a comparison, because nobody required them and gamers knew it. PS5 games will require a PS5.

I suspect Sony and MS will have no problem selling this gen at higher prices. We aren't talking about mom and dads getting something for the kiddies anymore. We are talking about 40 year olds that buy $60-$100K pickup trucks and $150 leggings getting something for themselves.
The common person probably won't make a big fuss over $100 but the people who will are the YouTubers and jurnos. They all going to make a video about how we the people are outraged about the price and then cause to actually outrage like we do over the smallest things now. Let's be honest about those collectors edition. It is just scalpers buying them up to flip them. They are over price junk anyway and I don't understand why people want that crap. The same goes for digital deluxe editions also. I am surprised base games haven't gone up to $70 or more by now.
 

Jim Kim

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They could MSRP it at $600-800 at launch and it would still fly off the shelves, considering that all the eBay gougers regularly sold the PS4 for $700+ when initial stock was scarce.
Easily $650 for the base model. They'd fly off the shelf.
 

DukenukemX

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This article seems like a stretch, click baity for sure. 500 bucks is not gameover, hell its still stupid cheap. You can't build a pc for that price.
Challenge detected! Here is your Windows 10 Pro license key for $3.50. This unit will cost you $540. Assembly is required.
PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 2600 3.4 GHz 6-Core Processor ($119.99 @ B&H)
Motherboard: ASRock B450M-HDV R4.0 Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard ($69.98 @ Amazon)
Memory: OLOy 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3000 Memory ($57.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Sony Optiarc 480 GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($53.99 @ Newegg)
Video Card: XFX Radeon RX 580 8 GB GTS XXX ED Video Card ($159.99 @ B&H)
Case: HEC HX210 MicroATX Mini Tower Case ($34.98 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: EVGA BR 450 W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply ($39.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $536.91
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-02-19 14:48 EST-0500
 

thesmokingman

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Challenge detected! Here is your Windows 10 Pro license key for $3.50. This unit will cost you $540. Assembly is required.
PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 2600 3.4 GHz 6-Core Processor ($119.99 @ B&H)
Motherboard: ASRock B450M-HDV R4.0 Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard ($69.98 @ Amazon)
Memory: OLOy 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3000 Memory ($57.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Sony Optiarc 480 GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($53.99 @ Newegg)
Video Card: XFX Radeon RX 580 8 GB GTS XXX ED Video Card ($159.99 @ B&H)
Case: HEC HX210 MicroATX Mini Tower Case ($34.98 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: EVGA BR 450 W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply ($39.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $536.91
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-02-19 14:48 EST-0500
This is a system only an enthusiasts whose cutting corners could build and yet its still over 500 and using dubious key seller for OS. Would anyone be happy using this at 4k res?
 

Brackle

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This is a system only an enthusiasts whose cutting corners could build and yet its still over 500 and using dubious key seller for OS. Would anyone be happy using this at 4k res?
Well a console being $499 will still have tax in most states. So then it would be over $500 just like the PC.
 
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