Sony HDTV -- "Motionflow Impulse Mode" (Sony strobe backlight; eliminate motion blur)

Discussion in 'Displays' started by Mark Rejhon, Jan 29, 2013.

  1. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    Hello,

    I need a volunteer to test this!

    I do not own a Sony HDTV, but I've gotten information of LightBoost-style behavior on a Sony HDTV that works with consoles -- PlayStation3 and XBox360, albiet with a *slight* input lag (not as good as LightBoost computer monitors). Apparently giving you plasma-quality game motion on an LED HDTV display, if you don't mind the 1-frame extra input lag (guesstimate).

    Do you own a high-end Sony LED HDTV?
    2012 model year or newer, with the scanning backlight feature?
    A high-end model with the "Motionflow XR 960" feature?
    Then it should also have a "Motionflow Impulse Mode"? (Motionflow mode WITHOUT interpolation)
    Example: Sony XBR HX950 (Specifications say "Impulse Mode: Yes")

    If you own a similar model, please turn on the "Impulse" setting. (You might need to disable your "Game Mode" temporarily)
    -- It will then flicker like a 60 Hz CRT. (the main disadvantage)
    -- However, about 75% of your motion blur disappears if you use Motionflow Impulse. (the big advantage)
    Test one of your full-framerate 60fps console games (or use a PC/laptop). Since it does not use interpolation, it has far less input lag than interpolation, even if not as low-lag as Game Mode.
    Please report back. Also try the "Clear" and "Clear Plus" settings.

    Thanks,
    Mark Rejhon
    BlurBusters.com Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur on LCD's -- LightBoost HOWTO
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  2. sethk

    sethk [H]ard|Gawd

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    Interesting stuff. Unfortunately I don't have a compatible Sony HDTV, but you may get some feedback on the official HX, and other official model threads on avsforum, since they are full of owners.
     
  3. John721

    John721 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Do any of their 46" models offer this feature in the manner you describe? I'm intrigued.
     
  4. Trojita

    Trojita n00b

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    I have a HX929. It is a 2011 model, but it has Motionflow XR 960. Will this not work on it though?
     
  5. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    Go through the menus and see if it has the "Impulse Mode" setting. You need to use a Motionflow mode that does not use interpolation (bad for games / input lag). Unfortunately it's very dependant on the model of Sony that you have.

    Sony does not advertise this very well, because it flickers badly (60 Hz flicker!), but is supposedly the closest thing that comes to a videogame-friendly LightBoost in a regular living-room HDTV.

    Yes. The 46HX950. Supposedly, all sizes of HX950's have "Motionflow Impulse".

    A couple of reports have told me that this is very "silky smooth" (like LightBoost), although not quite fully as good -- still about 4 times less motion blur than regular normal 60 Hz LCD's, without using interpolation. If you can tolerate the 60 Hz flicker and the added input lag. As of today, it's the closest thing to LightBoost in a 46" or 65" HDTV in your living room. (Too bad they don't support native 120 Hz).

    Magazine reviewers did not generally like the "Motionflow Impulse" setting, but it may be a boon for videogamers who don't mind the flicker.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  6. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    UPDATE

    The new Sony KDL55W905A and other certain new 2013 Sony HDTV's have a LightBoost-style strobe backlight feature that is now Game Mode compatible.

    This is called "Motionflow Impulse" (uses no interpolation!), which strobes the backlight similarly to LightBoost. It's a 60Hz LightBoost (flickers a lot) but gives you the CRT effect in your 60fps console video games. It does have a big loss in brightness (just like LightBoost), but if you want the CRT effect in your console videogames, it's now added to the Game Mode.

    Link: HDTVtest Article
     
  7. Oofloom

    Oofloom n00b

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    Tried this out on a Sony 4KTV at the store. Worked as you say. Clearer, but not 2D-Lightboost clear. I'm tempted to say it's the first LCD I've ever seen that I could play a console game on and be happy, but the brightness really takes a hit in impulse mode. Even in a dark room I don't know if it'd be enough. Color on these things is great though thanks to the new "Triluminos" (QD enhanced LEDs) feature. First LCD TV I've ever seen that doesn't pale next to plasma color-wise.
     
  8. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    Right, it is only using approximately 3:1 black frame insertion (4x clearer motion) during the strobe mode, unlike LightBoost which does the equivalent of 5:1 black frame insertion (6x clearer motion) plus running at 120Hz (12x clearer motion).

    I'm glad to hear that. And in a 4K TV!

    There is a corresponding 75% brightness loss during 3:1 black frame insertion (75% dark, 25% image) of Motionflow Impulse. It might not even be using boost pulses to overdrive the LED's.

    By the way -- big favour if possible -- if you go visit the display again, run the TestUFO.com motion test website (Blur Busters UFO Motion Tests) from a laptop, testing out the MPRT test (Motion Picture Response Time).

    It's a web-based test that allows you to measure the effective pixel response time with just your human eyes, using an optical illusion (MPRT measurement method, not pixel transition speed method). You can test it on the computer you're using right now. With both impulse mode enabled and impulse mode disabled. I expect you will need Resolution doesn't matter, as that motion test works at any resolution. I expect you'll get an MPRT of about 16ms for regular mode and an MPRT of maybe ~4ms with Motionflow Impulse enabled. It may even be too fast during this mode. Note: LightBoost and CRT displays are too fast for this MPRT test; a new test is being created for those displays.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2013
  9. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    This mode is available in all Sony 4K HDTV's.
    This mode is also available in the cheaper W802A series (~$1299)

    Supported Sony HDTV's: HX920 Series, HX923 Series, HX925 Series, HX929 Series, XBR-55HX950, XBR-65HX950, KDL-47W802A (Budget), KDL-55w802A (Budget), KDL-55W900A, W905A Series, XBR-55X900A (4K Ultra), XBR-65X900A (4K Ultra)

    I am receiving some LightBoost-style "wow" testimonials now with this mode from some AVSFORUM members:

     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  10. Morkai

    Morkai Limp Gawd

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    Could anyone try if this works at higher refereshrates with custom resolutions?
    (or is it bound to 60hz)?
     
  11. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    As far as I know, it's bound to 60Hz, but I'd love to know if it can run at slightly higher refresh rates such as 75Hz.

    Motionflow Impulse is available in Game Mode.
     
  12. Morkai

    Morkai Limp Gawd

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    Would be really nice if it worked, especially on the 4k versions.
    60hz is simply unacceptably low, but just a bit higher (around 85hz for me) and it starts to become quite ok.
    Seems displayport doesn't have much room in the specs for higher refresh though, max refresh @4k should be around 64.8hz if you keep it within the specified bandwidth.
    I don't know how well displayport can go above specs, dvi-d seems to handle it just fine at least.
    (17.28 Gbit/s is the maximum bandwidth for displayport, and 3840 × 2160 × 30 bpp @ 60 Hz needs 16Gbit/s, 64.8hz should be the maximum).

    But apparantly the cvt-r timings are only defined for 60hz, so it might not work at all to go higher?
    "CVT specifies a mode which uses reduced blanking intervals, saving video signal bandwidth for modern LCD monitors which are not based on cathode ray tubes anymore. This mode is currently only defined for vertical frequency of 60 Hz."

    Edit: seems those tv:s don't even have displayport, so i guess we can forget that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  13. UrielDagda

    UrielDagda 2[H]4U

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    Too bad they don't do this at 72Hz, it would reduce flickering a lot, and be compatible with 24Hz Blu-Ray for high def movies.

    I remember my last CRT computer monitor, I usually used 72-75Hz. I really miss the smoothness.. Now they just need to make a PC LCD monitor to do this without having to do tricks to get it working.
     
  14. Tych-0

    Tych-0 Gawd

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    Full agreement. 60Hz strobing is probably not going to be enjoyable for me. In the CRT days, 60Hz flickering would drive me nuts, but around 75-80Hz or so I would stop noticing it.

    I'm very happy to see companies advancing this fight against motion blur though, I'm just waiting for the right monitor; we are forced to make too many compromises atm. Bring on the high res, high frequency strobing displays!
     
  15. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    I have a new discovery. Impulse actually becomes slightly brighter if you disable the sensor, but in a store it might not mattered. Did you disable the ambient light sensor? The store lighting is extremely bright so it gives Impulse a disadvantage. Impulse is still close in brightness to some plasmas, so it is more OK in a regular home environment, especially with the drapes drawn to keep sunlight out.

    I wonder if Impulse becomes clearer (including to 2D LightBoost levels) if you dim the Impulse further, much like LightBoost=10% versus LightBoost=100%. I'll have to visit a Best Buy with a laptop running TestUFO, and find out...
     
  16. DouglasteR

    DouglasteR Limp Gawd

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    So let me get this straight.

    With this option the tv will accomplish a 0 ms lag in the lcd matrix pixels?
     
  17. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    No, it just affects motion blur in a way similiar to LightBoost (see 60Hz vs 120Hz vs LightBoost). Input lag (in ms) and motion picture response (in ms) are two different things.

    The input lag is still 16ms without Impulse, and about 30ms with Impulse. But Impulse gives you 4x the motion resolution (In fast panning motion such as www.testufo.com/#test=photo where you used to get 8 pixels of motion blur, you now see only 2 pixels of motion blur. That's better than plasma). This is actually really very good for a Motionflow mode, because Motionflow is normally 100ms input lag (due to interpolation). For the first time, you can have 60fps gaming on a LCD television *with* the motion clarity of a plasma display, without needing to use interpolation.

    You don't need to turn on the Impulse mode. It's there via Sony menus, like being able to turn ON/OFF LightBoost.
     
  18. roman797

    roman797 n00b

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    I didn't notice the KDL-32W650A series listed in the supported models for 2013. I wonder if this model does indeed support Motionflow Impulse Mode. I would consider this 32" TV as a gaming PC monitor. Not sure if this would be a good substitute for a PC monitor. I currently have an Asus VG248QE Lightboost monitor. It is really good with motion, but the colors are lacking. From what I have read the Sony TV seems to have good colors and good black levels for an LCD.

    Also, I wonder how good an LCD like this would perform for normal PC use, like reading text. I would place the screen further back on the wall behind my desk, maybe 3.5 ft.
     
  19. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    That's why I prefer the ASUS VG278H. It has superior LightBoost colors over the VG248QE. Double the contrast ratio in LightBoost!

    Several models of Sony TV's do make fairly computer/gaming monitors. Low input lag, 4:4:4 chroma, 1:1 pixel mapping, and good looking text after running ClearType tuner. Though you'd probably want to mainly use non-Impulse outside of games, due to the 60Hz flicker.

    3.5 to 4 feet view distance (from eyes to wall) sounds about right for the use of a 47" 1080p HDTV as a desktop monitor. This is similar vision coverage as a 24" monitor from 2 feet away, with roughly equal text readability at 1080p.. This is the TV wall mounted on the wall behind a desk. To reduce risk of eyestrain, make sure you calibrate the brightness down dimmer, since you do not want the TV to be the brightest object in the room.
     
  20. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    From my hours of researching on high-efficiency strobe backlight (technique similiar to LightBoost), Sony seems to be the only LED HDTV vendor with a Game Mode compatible strobe backlight. The list of supported Sony TV's, now posted at Sony Motionflow Impulse is the following:

    Sony HX920 Series
    Sony HX923 Series
    Sony HX925 Series
    Sony HX929 Series
    Sony XBR-55HX950
    Sony XBR-65HX950
    Sony KDL-47W802A (Budget)
    Sony KDL-55w802A (Budget)
    Sony KDL-55W900A
    Sony W905A Series
    Sony XBR-55X900A (4K Ultra)
    Sony XBR-65X900A (4K Ultra)

    It works with any 60Hz sources (consoles, computers, ATI, nVidia) as the technology is not tied to any specific vendor. Do make sure you can run 60fps@60Hz, not 30fps@60Hz. It will dramatically dim the screen. So turn off the ambient light sensor, to get a brighter picture during Sony Motionflow Impulse.
     
  21. stonewalker

    stonewalker Gawd

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    Can these tvs do 120hz output to a pc with or without motionflow impulse I want to play quake 3 with 120hz.
     
  22. roman797

    roman797 n00b

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    Are there any 32” models? Will turning on motion flow impulse make the colors washed out?
     
  23. Mark Rejhon

    Mark Rejhon [H]ard|Gawd

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    I've heard of reports of 720p at true 120Hz on some of these models, via HDTV Refresh Rate HOWTO: True 120Hz from PC to TV.

    It just dims the picture quite a bit, due to strobing. The color quality doesn't degrade like it does iwth LightBoost, as this is an intentionally-designed-for-2D strobing mode not used for 3D.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2013