“Solo” Box Office a Historic Failure for “Star Wars”

YeuEmMaiMai

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Oh FFS, who cares about SJW stuff except the people that keep crying about it. Wahh wahh wahh..

The movie failed for a few simple reasons and it has nothing to do with your political agenda.
if you say so...

Most people go to movies to be entertained, not to have some leftist agenda shoved down their throats
 

PimpUigi

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You guys know that Star Wars was always super SJW right?
Obi Wan Kenobi being based on Muhammad?
Anakin Skywalker using George Bush lines to make political points before his battle with Obi Wan?
All of Yoda's teachings?! Super Empire Strikes Back on Super NES is actually Super SJW The Game

Where have you guys been???????????
Just you were kids so you didn't care. Now your kids won't care either.
We saw Captain Planet when we were children and we all liked it; didn't know it was SJW like crazy.
You get to summon the ultimate SJW! He even has his own theme song. You'll pay for this SJW!!!!!
♫We're the SJW's, you can be one too...♪

Droids are a slave race. That was a political statement.
The rebels are terrorists. That was a political statement.
The death of Democracy is to the sound of applause. That line was SJW rhetoric!

Rewatching the Star Wars saga with an anti-SJW mindset means you're going to hate each and every movie more than the last. Because it builds and builds and builds. The entire Saga is the SJW Saga. No shit you don't like Star Wars now. Wow.

(but TLJ still sucked. because of legitimately sucky things. Bad writing. Bad jokes. Bad plot. Bad new lore. Bad bad bad. Luke's force projecting was bad ass though. As was his death.)
I don't care about leftists or rightists or uppy stairs or the downy stairs.
But anyone complaining about the politics of movies just gets a big eye roll from me.

A movie was good or it wasn't. American Sniper was good. The Force Awakens was decent. (good if you don't count Episode 4 copycatting)
One is right wing, one is left wing; but who cares because both movies were good?
 

BSmith

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Is it as good as Rogue One? That was a good one, in my opinion.

It was awesome! But if you are going for some deep dark meaning of life crap, or using it for political grandstanding, then you should pass on it.

Perspective shifts. If Disney made the original New Hope today, verbatim, they would get blasted for it being preachy and shoving their political agenda down our throats. I called it a "perspective shift", but it can also wreak of hypocrisy, depending on the person.
 

Dan_D

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It was awesome! But if you are going for some deep dark meaning of life crap, or using it for political grandstanding, then you should pass on it.

Perspective shifts. If Disney made the original New Hope today, verbatim, they would get blasted for it being preachy and shoving their political agenda down our throats. I called it a "perspective shift", but it can also wreak of hypocrisy, depending on the person.

I never go to movies because I want to see something deep and meaningful. In fact, most movies that go for shit like that aren't very entertaining. I go to a movie to be entertained. Nothing more, nothing less.

Have you ever considered that maybe you are being overly sensitive about this "leftist agenda" being "Shoved down" your throat?
Maybe you need a safe space?

As I've said before, Hollywood has always had a leftist agenda. Unfortunately, they stopped being subtle about it in the last few years. I usually ignore it but sometimes its so obvious and idiotic that you can't ignore it and it can detract from one's ability to enjoy a film or TV show in the most egregious of cases. I think people are hypersensitive to this regarding Star Wars largely because Kathleen Kennedy's stupid and off putting statements. Again, I haven't seen Solo but a lot of people are being overly sensitive about SJW issues in things like Star Trek Discovery, The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi. I'm not a fan of SJW libtards, but our modern entertainment suffers from bigger problems than just being made to pander to a vocal minority.

In many cases they are badly written and filled with uninteresting characters. My problem with Rey in Star Wars has nothing to do with the actress and her work in the movies or her character being female. It's how her character is written. It's the fact that she's a Mary Sue and her being able to go toe to toe with experienced force users without training.
 

Darunion

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My problem with Rey in Star Wars has nothing to do with the actress and her work in the movies or her character being female. It's how her character is written. It's the fact that she's a Mary Sue and her being able to go toe to toe with experienced force users without training.

Right, like they just recycled Anakin but skipped the whole jedi and combat training part. For me i already can't stand that there is never any danger for the hero of the story, but at least give me something that shows WHY they are able to have an advantage over every single enemy they fight. I don't like how the force seems more like magic that you automatically get as you level up instead of something that requires lots of training to learn to control.
 

Dan_D

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I don't disagree with this. But I don't think it's what's driving this shift- which is about money. Expanding the viewing demographic and selling toys to girls.

The problem is that they are trying to expand their market appeal to a vocal minority at the cost of alienating their core customers. Like it or not, the mid-30's to 50 year old middle - upper middle class males they hate probably spend the most money on these products in the U.S. Most people probably have somewhat centrist viewpoints rather than leaning hard left or hard right. If you talk to me about gun control, you would probably think that I'm a staunch conservative and even a Trump supporter. However, that couldn't be further from the truth. In reality, I have thoughts and opinions that span the spectrum on different issues. I think most people do.

Disney is a company out to make money. Having people in positions of authority speaking on behalf of your company spouting shit that alienates your customers is never a good business model. This is especially retarded when males are still the bread winners and the primary consumers of this type of product. While I agree that appealing to females is a good thing, I think the approach is wrong. Men and women like different things. Its that simple. If you want to create additional products to cater to females, or find a balance in existing products that's fine. Taking established franchises and characters and twisting them to push your bullshit agenda os a good way to piss people off on all sides of the issues. It didn't do Discovery any favors and it hasn't done anything for Star Wars either.

You tend to get bullshit and vitriol back from the left in the form of comments like: "You are just intimidated by a strong woman." The funny thing is that this type of nonsense can be proven wrong. The 1980's was very different than today, and Ellen Ripley stood as an equal in the Alien films as a strong character and its only constant protagonist. It was a popular series and I don't recall anyone ever saying that the movie would have been better with a male lead or that they didn't like it because it had a strong female character in it. Wonder Woman and other characters have been strong female types. The difference is that today's "strong woman" characters aren't really strong females at all. They are written to act like men and the men in the film are emasculated for the purpose of elevating the female leads who aren't written well.

The funny thing is, there are people at Disney that know how to do this shit correctly. Take Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. for example. While there are certainly some groan worthy female sci-fi character stereo types and tropes in play, overall the primary team in the show is usually half female. Each of those characters stand equally with the men without overshadowing them and emasculating them. In that show, men and women are generally portrayed as equals with each character having strengths and weaknesses. The women aren't written like men either.

When Star Trek Discovery tried this, they ended up making a character that was unlikable. No one cared that she was female, black, or whatever. They didn't like her because she has the personality of a wooden door stop. She isn't fun to watch and displays little personality.

The point is that there is no reason to use the approach that Hollywood is using for crap like the most recent Star Wars movies. There is no reason to alienate existing customers and fans to make the material have a broader appeal.
 

PimpUigi

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There is no reason to alienate existing customers and fans to make the material have a broader appeal.
Windows 7/Vista waves hello.
(Microsoft trying to be like Apple and shooting themselves in the foot when all everyone wanted was Windows XP that was easier to install and faster. Instead of that we lost Creative EAX, had slow buggy OSes until Windows 8.1 which is like Windows 10 without the bullshit but everyone glossed over it because it's just the least shitty Windows in a handful of crap)
 

Dan_D

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Windows 7/Vista waves hello.
(Microsoft trying to be like Apple and shooting themselves in the foot when all everyone wanted was Windows XP that was easier to install and faster. Instead of that we lost Creative EAX, had slow buggy OSes until Windows 8.1 which is like Windows 10 without the bullshit but everyone glossed over it because it's just the least shitty Windows in a handful of crap)

Windows 7 was awesome. I don't think everyone just wanted an improved XP. We wanted something that was more advanced, easier to install and made some damn progress. The problem is that in some ways, subsequent versions of Windows had a worse interface that added steps to simple tasks in Windows XP. As for the audio issues, the reason behind these problems is much simpler. Part of the reason why we've seen greater stability in a desktop OS than at any other time during Microsoft's domination (post Windows-XP era) is due to the fact that the troublesome audio implementation of Windows XP was abandoned. I agree it was a double edged sword, but before or since, its evident that audio drivers have been nothing but a shit show from every manufacturer out there.

Microsoft is trying to remain relevant in an era where the business model they've used for two decades is no longer working. I suppose its similar to Disney in that way, but Microsoft has at least listened to feedback and attempted to put out a better product and they have. Kathleen Kennedy and her ilk have not only continued to alienate their customers, but double-down on their stupidity.
 

PimpUigi

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Windows 7 was awesome.
You get your leftist right wing Vista SP3 crap out of here right now young lady.
Windows "trying to be like Mac!" with Windows 7/Vista drove more people to Mac OS X than a libtard bernie trump supporter with a "livable wages make america great again!" purple hat.

It also took Microsoft all the way from the Vista-version-of-Longhorn (not awesome Longhorn that was XP 2) to the preview build of Windows 8.1 to finally start listening to their user feedback. How many years was that? Definitely longer than since TLJ came out. I say you gotta give Amy Pascal and her horrible "lets cancel Amazing Spiderman 3 and make Ghostbusters Reboot instead!!" just as long before you can call it doubling down, which is just what Microsoft did in their similar time span.
(sorry for the bad equation of Kathleen Kennedy to Amy Pascal; but I'm not over that shit yet)
 

Derangel

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nope

the BOX office results affirm my position

Yeah, no. Casual movies audiences do not give a shit about that stuff. The loud outcry from fans definitely had an impact, but you are a fool if you think people screaming on the internet about "SJWs" was the sole cause of the movie being a flop.
 

Draxanoth

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Yeah, no. Casual movies audiences do not give a shit about that stuff. The loud outcry from fans definitely had an impact, but you are a fool if you think people screaming on the internet about "SJWs" was the sole cause of the movie being a flop.
People screaming SJW online are the least of their problems. Empowering people who think pandering to protected class groups is all you need to make a great movie always leads to series failure. They got away with it in TFA because people thought the lack of continuity would be explained in TLJ. Instead they doubled down on it, threw all the Chekov's guns in the garbage, continued to denigrate the legacy characters that created their audience pool in the first place, and openly mocking the fanbase that didn't like it.

No one with a half ounce of logic in their brain buys into a Mary Sue character, fan or not. They created an all powerful woman character that defies any sense of established power balance, then act surprised when the story falls apart by giving her no back story to justify it. They've systematically discarded the legacy of the franchise, jammed ridiculous caricatures of social justice direction in their stead, watched the actual fans shed from a universe that pales in comparison to the EU, and hope the groups they're pandering to are enough to keep the propaganda project afloat. Rian Johnson turned it to 11 by basically rewriting canon physics so he could create not 1, not 2, but 3 moments of illogical victory for female characters. TLJ was closer to a parody than a movie that fits the universe, and Solo suffered greatly for their hubris.

They butchered another franchise to try and insert characters that fulfilled their own wishes instead of the stories needs, and this time it was with an established IP that has a rabid following. It was an incredibly reckless gamble from an investors perspective, and I'll be really surprised if management doesn't take a torpedo before they make the next one.
 

Derangel

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People screaming SJW online are the least of their problems. Empowering people who think pandering to protected class groups is all you need to make a great movie always leads to series failure. They got away with it in TFA because people thought the lack of continuity would be explained in TLJ. Instead they doubled down on it, threw all the Chekov's guns in the garbage, continued to denigrate the legacy characters that created their audience pool in the first place, and openly mocking the fanbase that didn't like it.

No one with a half ounce of logic in their brain buys into a Mary Sue character, fan or not. They created an all powerful woman character that defies any sense of established power balance, then act surprised when the story falls apart by giving her no back story to justify it. They've systematically discarded the legacy of the franchise, jammed ridiculous caricatures of social justice direction in their stead, watched the actual fans shed from a universe that pales in comparison to the EU, and hope the groups they're pandering to are enough to keep the propaganda project afloat. Rian Johnson turned it to 11 by basically rewriting canon physics so he could create not 1, not 2, but 3 moments of illogical victory for female characters. TLJ was closer to a parody than a movie that fits the universe, and Solo suffered greatly for their hubris.

They butchered another franchise to try and insert characters that fulfilled their own wishes instead of the stories needs, and this time it was with an established IP that has a rabid following. It was an incredibly reckless gamble from an investors perspective, and I'll be really surprised if management doesn't take a torpedo before they make the next one.

TLJ made 1.3 BILLION worldwide. If it was as hated as people like to claim (and, for the record, I disliked it as well) then it would not have reached that number. TLJ being divisive as hell probably had some kind of impact, but you are vastly overestimating how much causal audiences care. Solo was primarily a combination of bad timing (Kennedy is a fucking idiot releasing it so close to Avengers and Deadpool), bad marketing (those trailers were trash), and bad press about the movie itself. A December release without all the drama that the media reported on and I bet Solo would have done very well, no matter how loudly people screamed on the internet.
 

Trimlock

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Yeah, no. Casual movies audiences do not give a shit about that stuff. The loud outcry from fans definitely had an impact, but you are a fool if you think people screaming on the internet about "SJWs" was the sole cause of the movie being a flop.
Improperly advertised, too fast a release, drama with creators and director, hardly any backfill to the story other than the universe.

Multiple reasons it didn’t do well, but it was still a good movie that did well it just cost too much to make.
 

Exavior

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Yeah, no. Casual movies audiences do not give a shit about that stuff. The loud outcry from fans definitely had an impact, but you are a fool if you think people screaming on the internet about "SJWs" was the sole cause of the movie being a flop.

Fully agree. Every time I see somebody online mention SJW or lefty / righty I just assume they are a fucking idiot and move on. I have never watched a movie or played a game and picked up on a single thing that these people go on bitching about. How dare you have a female in this game or movie not just be there as a sex object but actually be real character, this is an abomination and you are just trying to force your views down my throat. :p

Average person only cares about being entertained. Don't care about the color of skin or gender of the people on screen. If people aren't given entertainment then they don't like something.

People screaming SJW online are the least of their problems. Empowering people who think pandering to protected class groups is all you need to make a great movie always leads to series failure. They got away with it in TFA because people thought the lack of continuity would be explained in TLJ. Instead they doubled down on it, threw all the Chekov's guns in the garbage, continued to denigrate the legacy characters that created their audience pool in the first place, and openly mocking the fanbase that didn't like it.

No one with a half ounce of logic in their brain buys into a Mary Sue character, fan or not. They created an all powerful woman character that defies any sense of established power balance, then act surprised when the story falls apart by giving her no back story to justify it. They've systematically discarded the legacy of the franchise, jammed ridiculous caricatures of social justice direction in their stead, watched the actual fans shed from a universe that pales in comparison to the EU, and hope the groups they're pandering to are enough to keep the propaganda project afloat. Rian Johnson turned it to 11 by basically rewriting canon physics so he could create not 1, not 2, but 3 moments of illogical victory for female characters. TLJ was closer to a parody than a movie that fits the universe, and Solo suffered greatly for their hubris.

They butchered another franchise to try and insert characters that fulfilled their own wishes instead of the stories needs, and this time it was with an established IP that has a rabid following. It was an incredibly reckless gamble from an investors perspective, and I'll be really surprised if management doesn't take a torpedo before they make the next one.

First off you say this but honestly I have no clue what the fuck a social justice directive is. From listening to you people on this site, social justice means you are accepting that blacks and women are equals to white men. Is that correct? I am correct in thinking that blacks and women being allowed to a vote and drive is part of the SJW category right? Is that isn't right then I guess I just don't understand what it is as that is all I ever see it used in reference to is bitching that we are to expect that a person of color or a women would be able to do something a white male could.

As for the whole Mary Sue character thing. I don't see what you (and others that are pissed that a female was put into the movie, as that is what I view people that use the term Mary Sue as being) see. Did they change up some stuff? Sure, Luke even had new powers as he was able to sit on one planet and make a physical form of himself appear on another. I think the biggest issue for many of you is that times change. Back in 1973 The Exorcist was the scariest movie ever created. If they made a sequel today and only did everything that was exactly how that movie was done, nobody would watch it as by today's standards the movie is tame as far as scares go. Same for Psycho, a movie like that wouldn't cut it today. You have to update things, you have to create better effects, different scares, you have to try harder to get people to have the feeling that you want them to have. Same with Star Wars. Funny how people bitch about 1 - 3 and them being shit and somehow think 7 - 9 would have been the greatest thing ever had George still been there to write them also. 1 - 3 changed up things also. They added that the force is basically a virus that you have in your blood that gives you power. Viruses evolve at a fast rate, so who is to say that the virus that is around at the time of new trilogy that new powers aren't possible due to the evolution of the virus?

As somebody that watches movies for entertainment, I have found all the movies (1 - 8) to be equally bad in some regards, but found all of them to at least be entertaining in their own way. To me the Star Wars fan base really is just a very whiny bunch that won't ever be happy with anything. They didn't like 1 - 3 and any changes made there. They didn't like the updates made to the releases, which some like Han shot first shouldn't have been changed as they were trying to change events of the movie but others were not as bad as people made them out to be. So really it doesn't matter what they would have done for parts 7 - 9 or any other side stories, the fan base would have bitched that something wasn't correct or wasn't the way that they wanted it.
 

TheFlayedMan

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I must have missed the political agenda everyone is talking about in Star Wars. I liked how they had a female lead who was really strong in the force. I didn't like what they did with Luke though that was BS.
 

KamelRed

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I must have missed the political agenda everyone is talking about in Star Wars. I liked how they had a female lead who was really strong in the force. I didn't like what they did with Luke though that was BS.

I too, liked the female lead who is a nobody so strong in the force she could defeat the grandson of Anakin Skywalker, who had years of training of both light and dark side force arts, with a lightsaber she never used before and a power she never felt before. And do you know why she was so strong? Balance.

Balance being the new midichlorian buzzword to explain force strength now. It all makes total sense now, right?
 

Jagger100

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I must have missed the political agenda everyone is talking about in Star Wars. I liked how they had a female lead who was really strong in the force. I didn't like what they did with Luke though that was BS.
Justify bringing in Admiral Blue Hair when they had Admiral Akbar there, a now beloved character that's famous for the It's a Trap meme?
Imagine the marketing opportunities in the trailer and commercials. I mention that because that trumps Laura Dern's "Star Power" by a mile.
 

Uvaman2

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I too, liked the female lead who is a nobody so strong in the force she could defeat the grandson of Anakin Skywalker, who had years of training of both light and dark side force arts, with a lightsaber she never used before and a power she never felt before. And do you know why she was so strong? Balance.

Balance being the new midichlorian buzzword to explain force strength now. It all makes total sense now, right?
Hehe, you see, Anakin gets chopped to pieces in the road to Darth Vader... Luke loses a hand, Kylo Ren is scarred and injured and emotionally messed up... You see guys just suck/ s
If disney was to restore some faith in their capacity to do any decen SW movie they should take all the shit characters they created, put them on a space ship and blow them up. The bring back luke and start the hell over.
 

farscapesg1

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We saw it Tuesday night and the theater was packed (discount movie night). The entire family enjoyed it, probably more than Rogue One because there was the option of getting attached to characters that weren't all slaughtered at the end. Don't get me wrong, I liked Rogue One also, but I go to movies to enjoy the story and get attached to characters, not have them all ripped out from under me (even if I knew it was coming).

As for the leftist/SJW issues.. meh. I lean more conservative, but I don't go into movies worrying about some underlying (or slap-in-your-face) viewpoints. Maybe I'm odd.. but I can easily tune that stuff out and not have it bother me. I don't read reviews, directors comments, etc. so other than those harping on it in this thread I wouldn't have even thought to look for any issues with Lando's sexuality (always took him as flamboyant and probably bi in the original trilogy). The female robot pilot was actually pretty amusing and made for some good chuckles. If anything the one character I didn't like was Qi'ra.
 

TheCommander

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TLJ was freaking boring and padded to hell and back. Over half the movie could have been cut out and nothing would have been lost. It's late so just some quick comments:

The entire central plot was about the slowest fucking chase in cinema history and it seemed like Johnson thought the audience were idiots because the dialog kept talking about fuel all the damn time.

Holdo was a moron. There was absolutely no reason for her not to at least vaguely mention her plan. Or to do something to make sure Poe wouldn't interfere.

Poe was a jackass. He went from a fun, interesting, character in TFA to a character that just did what the plot demanded.

Rose was an abysmal character. The actress tried her best to make the character more, but the writing was so bad and she had so little to do that there was nothing redeeming about the character.

The fuck did Johnson do to Finn? He was the best character in TFA and now he's useless and annoying.

What is with Disney wasting Bencio del Toro in thankless roles?

Nice to see all that renewed hype for Phasma resulted in fuck all, yet again. Just keep her dead this time, the character is worthless.

This is the movie where Rey did become a Mary Sue. She has zero faults and never falters. She is instantly perfect at everything and it doesn't seem like she is even tempted by Ren.

Snoke was completely pointless.

Ren's betrayal of Snoke makes no narrative sense. It was a cool scene, but it comes out of nowhere and seems to be just a cheap trick to fool the audience into thinking Ren turned to the light side again.

Johnson took any element of TFA that might have been interesting, characters included, and either entirely discards it or makes it utterly boring.

The few good things I can say about the movie are:

This was probably Carrie Fisher's best performance. She was never a good actress but she showed some heart and emotion this time around. That "meeting" between her and Luke was so good.

Ren become a much better villain here. Adam Driver seems more comfortable in the role and the movie moves away from the temper tantrums of TFA. Having him not just be a bad imitation of Vader was the right move.

Holdo's sacrifice was pretty badass. Thinking about it for more than a few minutes brings up some pretty serious questions and it does kind of ruin space battles for the franchise, but it was a great moment in the movie.

It was a well shot movie. Rogue One is still my favorite looking of the Disney Star Wars movies, but TLJ's behind-the-scenes crew did a great job with the movie.

I agree with most of this but I hated everything about Holdo. She was very annoying and her keeping her plan a secret was one of the dumbest things in that movie. Seems to me she was also there to put the alpha male into place and teach him a lesson. The ship suicide was also something I didn't care for. Why didn't they use this tactic in all the other space battles? And why was she needed to do it? Surely a futuristic ship like that has autopilot; not hard to send a ship in a straight line or why not just use a droid? It also probably would have been better to use a legendary character like Admiral Ackbar for the ship suicide since he deserved a more heroic end but that probably wouldn't go well with some people since his name is "Ackbar."

Pretty much that whole chasing the ship part of the movie was bad. Why didn't the villains just jump some of their ships ahead to cut them off. Why didn't the good guys just scatter and send their ships in various directions. Instead, they all go in the same direction and are picked off one by one. Lazy writing created stupid characters and decisions.

Too bad about Finn as well. He was a really good character that was ruined in the movie along with Luke.
 

TheFlayedMan

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I too, liked the female lead who is a nobody so strong in the force she could defeat the grandson of Anakin Skywalker, who had years of training of both light and dark side force arts, with a lightsaber she never used before and a power she never felt before. And do you know why she was so strong? Balance.

Balance being the new midichlorian buzzword to explain force strength now. It all makes total sense now, right?

Why not? As I said I liked that she was really strong she could defeat her enemies and that they didn't feel they had to have a long boring training section of the movie like in old Kung fu movies where half the film is the wanna be fighter carrying oversized jugs of water up and down stairs or what not.
 

KamelRed

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Why not? As I said I liked that she was really strong she could defeat her enemies and that they didn't feel they had to have a long boring training section of the movie like in old Kung fu movies where half the film is the wanna be fighter carrying oversized jugs of water up and down stairs or what not.

No. Instead of water jugs she just gets tickled by a leaf, swings a lightsaber mindlessly at a rock, stares into a mirror of infinity, and steals books of ancient wisdom she hasn't read. I mean fuck learning how to actually control your super powers when there is no need since the script demands you just kick ass "cuz Disney".

But hey...

it-could-have-been-worse-samuel-l-jackson-gif1.gif
 
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TheFlayedMan

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No. Instead of water jugs she just gets tickled by a leaf, swings a lightsaber mindlessly at a rock, stares into a mirror of infinity, and steals books of ancient wisdom she hasn't read. I mean fuck leaning how to actually control your super powers when there is no need since the script demands you just kick ass "cuz Disney".

But hey...

View attachment 79547
haha there is an element of truth in what you say
 

Jim Kim

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Why not? As I said I liked that she was really strong she could defeat her enemies and that they didn't feel they had to have a long boring training section of the movie like in old Kung fu movies where half the film is the wanna be fighter carrying oversized jugs of water up and down stairs or what not.
As you can see by some of the comment peeps gotta have their training montage.
 

Uvaman2

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As you can see by some of the comment peeps gotta have their training montage.
Its not about a training montage, its about things making SOME sense... Yes it is science fiction, but a lot of the fun goes away when they dont put the nuggets of truth, or at least some logic. The could as well said Rey grew up during war all her life or some shit like that... Could have made her and expert in gun type weapons, not necessarily a light saber, some shit, any shit.
 

Dan_D

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Why not? As I said I liked that she was really strong she could defeat her enemies and that they didn't feel they had to have a long boring training section of the movie like in old Kung fu movies where half the film is the wanna be fighter carrying oversized jugs of water up and down stairs or what not.

Why not? Because it's nonsense. That's why. When you want to tell a tale in a galaxy far far away, or anywhere else you have to create what's known as "suspension of disbelief" for anything that's too fantastic to be plausible. This is necessary due to basic facets of human psychology. Its the same reason why people who run around telling people that they were abducted by aliens are looked at like they are insane. It's the same reason why most people look at people who believe the Earth is flat in 2018 like they are retarded lepers who have suck with farm animals and their own relatives. The claims being made are so fantastic that they can't be reconciled with the experiences of the general populace, or what we know about established reality. We automatically disbelieve anything that goes against what we know to be true without evidence to prove otherwise.

Creating a "suspension of disbelief" is writing / storytelling 101. This is something you learn in any high school level English class or any class concerning literature. To create a suspension of disbelief, a work of fiction has to establish certain rules. Doing so establishes a framework of rules for that fictional universe. You can't reach warp 10, you can't track ships once they enter hyperspace and you need training to use the force are examples of rules established in popular science fiction franchises. If you are going to break these rules for the purpose of telling a story, you need to provide an explanation for why the established rule is being broken. In The Last Jedi, they broke the rule about tracking ships in hyperspace and provided some explanation for why this was the case. It only took brief dialog to do so. So far, Rey's mysterious ability to wield the force at an expert level in combat has had zero explanation despite the "chosen one" needing more than a decade to reach his peak. Luke had far less training than his father, but still was given a base of skills and techniques to build from. Without that, he was unable to use the Force on any conscious level prior to meeting Obi-Wan Kenobi. Rey is never even taught basic skils and somehow beats Kylo Ren in a duel. Injured or not, he should have obliterated her. Finn standing toe to toe with him makes more sense when you think about it as he's a trained Stormtrooper. If he ever had an introductory class to melee weapons, he's in a better place to start than Rey is. Rey also has no practical flight experience and in her first outing as a pilot, she manages to fly the Falcon better than we've ever seen Han or Lando ever has on screen so far.

It's the same garbage with Space Leia flying like fucking Superman. These scene could have worked but absolutely zero explanation for her miraculous behavior was given to explain how she was able to do that. They could have shown a precognitive event, followed by some preparation of some sort to make the scene plausible. Remember, fiction requires some sort of plausibility or it breaks that suspension of disbelief. It is crucial that such a thing doesn't happen. Instead, nearly the first piece of evidence we've seen of Leia having any training in the Force was some garbage where the laws of physics in the real universe were defied and even the rules established in the fictional framework of Star Wars were thrown out of the window with zero explanation given. From a literary perspective, the film breaks with what we as a society have learned from the beginning of the written language as far as telling works of fiction goes. The rules established for story telling aren't simply arbitrary, but are time tested methods of the profession which shouldn't be ignored. These rules are there because they work and are even grounded in human psychology. The need to create suspension of disbelief is rooted in human psychology as I explained earlier. Ignoring the tenants of good story telling is not only a bad idea, it reeks of amateur hour on the part of the people involved in making the decisions that led to disregard for the fans, the source material and even their own professionalism.

Disney is a business first and foremost. It employs creative people who tend to have more liberal mindsets. This is simply how things are in those fields. However, as a business Disney needs to understand the need to cater to its customers and provide them with products that they will continue to spend money on. When your customers criticize you, they are effectively telling you precisely what they want free of charge. When people say, Rey is a Mary Sue, Admiral Holdo is an idiot, and your treatment of Luke as a character was incongruent with the character's established history, you are receiving free advice on what the public is looking for in Star Wars films and your being told why you didn't make as much money from the last two films that were released.

Many people who have leveraged complaints against Lucasfilm / Disney over these issues have been met with vitriol from Kathleen Kennedy and her ilk. People have told them that Rey, Jyn and Holdo being female weren't the problem. They've been told that they didn't care about Finn being black. No one had a problem with the fact that the Asian character added to TLJ was female or Asian. They complained that these characters were badly written and ultimately didn't serve the story very well. Instead, Kathleen and company called their customers racist and sexist. To my knowledge, no one complained about the race or gender of these characters. The problem goes beyond a simple desire to push SJW "values" and ideas. It's a systemic problem for Disney as it's Lucasfilm division is producing subpar products which are now losing money and damaging the company's image. This issue lies at the fault of Kathleen Kennedy above all others and she needs to be held accountable for this.
 

Dan_D

Extremely [H]
Joined
Feb 9, 2002
Messages
60,577
Its not about a training montage, its about things making SOME sense... Yes it is science fiction, but a lot of the fun goes away when they dont put the nuggets of truth, or at least some logic. The could as well said Rey grew up during war all her life or some shit like that... Could have made her and expert in gun type weapons, not necessarily a light saber, some shit, any shit.

Right. As far as we know, FTL travel is either impossible or requires technology and an understanding of physics far beyond our level of technology. We can at least conceive and understand the premise of the idea, so its at least plausible the way its presented in the movies based on what we know now. Within the framework of Star Wars, FTL travel is plausible. The Force is defined in the first film we saw, and basic rules about how it works and what it can do are laid out in the film and subsequent sequels. Those rules include a need for training to attain any level of proficiency. Something Rey doesn't do. Therefore, it's beyond what we know to be plausible for the framework of the Star Wars universe. Without an explanation as to how she is the exception to the rule, it doesn't work.

In a work of fiction, you can withhold an explanation to imbue a sense of mystery into the story for a time. However, at some point you've got to shit or get off the pot. I figured they would explain her ability to do this in a later film either because they had always intended to or because the criticism of Episode VII centering on the lack of explanation would have caused the writers and filmmakers of Episode VIII to do precisely that. They didn't. Instead, they doubled down by giving us more examples of her defying the known laws of Star Wars all the while claiming she needs training. It's worse than her simply continuing to defy the rules as she constantly brings up the rules so we don't forget it.
 

noko

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
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Messages
6,769
Right. As far as we know, FTL travel is either impossible or requires technology and an understanding of physics far beyond our level of technology. We can at least conceive and understand the premise of the idea, so its at least plausible the way its presented in the movies based on what we know now. Within the framework of Star Wars, FTL travel is plausible. The Force is defined in the first film we saw, and basic rules about how it works and what it can do are laid out in the film and subsequent sequels. Those rules include a need for training to attain any level of proficiency. Something Rey doesn't do. Therefore, it's beyond what we know to be plausible for the framework of the Star Wars universe. Without an explanation as to how she is the exception to the rule, it doesn't work.

In a work of fiction, you can withhold an explanation to imbue a sense of mystery into the story for a time. However, at some point you've got to shit or get off the pot. I figured they would explain her ability to do this in a later film either because they had always intended to or because the criticism of Episode VII centering on the lack of explanation would have caused the writers and filmmakers of Episode VIII to do precisely that. They didn't. Instead, they doubled down by giving us more examples of her defying the known laws of Star Wars all the while claiming she needs training. It's worse than her simply continuing to defy the rules as she constantly brings up the rules so we don't forget it.
Why did she steal the books when she already mastered Jedi Powers or on a swift kick in the ASS projection in achieving it? Looks like she should be writing new books and throwing those away. Movie was utterly terrible and was grimsome watching it in the theater - my wife actually started snoring during the movie :ROFLMAO:, she is not a fan of the new movies and think they are utterly ridiculous.

Only way to even remotely redeem the storyline in my thought process is to have the last two episodes be Lukes looking into the future with how the Dark side clouds the outcome. Luke seeks Rey to train knowing full well she will not be able to achieve anything using the force without his guidance. It could be the first 30 min of the movie covering what really happened, training and so on. Even Leia dying during the real timeline could be used to prompt Luke to come out of hiding. Of course I doubt this would ever be done.
 

Uvaman2

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
3,143
Why did she steal the books when she already mastered Jedi Powers or on a swift kick in the ASS projection in achieving it? Looks like she should be writing new books and throwing those away. Movie was utterly terrible and was grimsome watching it in the theater - my wife actually started snoring during the movie :ROFLMAO:, she is not a fan of the new movies and think they are utterly ridiculous.

Only way to even remotely redeem the storyline in my thought process is to have the last two episodes be Lukes looking into the future with how the Dark side clouds the outcome. Luke seeks Rey to train knowing full well she will not be able to achieve anything using the force without his guidance. It could be the first 30 min of the movie covering what really happened, training and so on. Even Leia dying during the real timeline could be used to prompt Luke to come out of hiding. Of course I doubt this would ever be done.
No no no, you take , Finn, Rey, Kylo, , and everyone (yes young versions just travel in time) from all the disney garbage movies, and blow them up in space ship. then magically Luke is alive (i question his death ) and move from there.
 
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TheFlayedMan

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I think she beat Kylo so easily because he had a heavy sesh on the Shesharilian vodka and deep fried Ewok burgers the night before and was off his game.
 
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Teenk9

[H]ard|Gawd
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No no no, you take , Finn, Rey, Kylo, , and everyone (yes young versions just travel in time) from all the disney garbage movies, and blow them up in space ship. then magically Luke is alive (i question his death ) and move from there.

Keep Finn, he's the only one of the new characters that fit in Star Wars. Poe can go. He's the male Mary Sue of this trilogy.

Also TLJ is trash. It is so disconnected from Star Wars 'reality' that I don't think I can ever consider it a Star Wars movie.
 
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naib

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whats needed is at the start of the next starwars is we see Palpatine opening his eyes from a long meditation session

"noo! its all wrong! this plan will result in the destruction of the sith"
Here we see Palpatine on Naboo with Plagueis as they are concocting the creation of Anakin (from starwars legends).... Palpatine steps out and arranges killing Padme who is just a young child at this point.
 
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Uvaman2

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Keep Finn, he's the only one of the new characters that fit in Star Wars. Poe can go. He's the male Mary Sue of this trilogy.

Also TLJ is trash. It is so disconnected from Star Wars 'reality' that I don't think I can ever consider it a Star Wars movie.
Okay okay, we will keep Finn.. he was late to the meeting on the ship, so he witnessed the explosion from a distance... Also, are there any girls or women identifying with the supposed strong female roles here?.. i think they are even failing at that..
 
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